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How a Scottish maritime museum ended up in Israel’s 3D propaganda videos
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine - Page 486
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12381 Posts
Also SRF doing work let's go How a Scottish maritime museum ended up in Israel’s 3D propaganda videos | ||
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KT_Elwood
Germany1105 Posts
Bibi is extremely good in manufacturing crisis to appear as "strong man" and win elections by pleasing the right and making moderates afraid enough to vote for him. Next election is 2026 - but what would be the next big threat manufacured? | ||
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Ser Galachad
6 Posts
On October 08 2025 05:45 KwarK wrote: Pick a lane. You’re either old enough to get involved and deal with heat like “Had I used those words your post would certainly have been a response.” or you’re not. You can’t keep insisting on participation while complaining that it’s all too spicy for you. You, or your guardian, are responsible for keeping you safe online. Why did you even respond to that comment before? You're not acting like a 12 year old, you're acting like an edgy 15 year old. You don't need parental supervision, but you're certainly not bringing any voice of reason to the discussion, you mainly want to antagonize it seems like. Do you think that the people of Palestine deserve to have a state and live in peace? Do you believe that the people of Isreal wants the people of Palestine to have a state and live in peace? Do you think the leaders of either faction wishes this? I would like to know your position, because now you make it seem like you don't think Palestinians are real people and because of Hamas they all deserve to starve to death. Now I don't think you believe that, but its the, lets say "energy" you give off when you respond to some people. In my opinion a two state solution is the only one that doesn't end in more genocide and I think Israel is in the best position to facilitate that (with lots of help from the outside for example Egypt needs to step up etc), but what they are doing is only creating more strife and moving away from a solution. User was warned for this post | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8789 Posts
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Jankisa
Croatia1087 Posts
This is great news, I've been watching and listening to the news over the weekend and it's so nice to finally see some good happening to the people of Gaza, it's so nice to see interviews of the hostage families finally seeing the end of the tunnel, of course, all of this is still tainted by seeing the other side of the medal, all the people coming back to areas of Gaza they had to leave and seeing that their homes were destroyed, but this is a good day, whatever happens after, at least these hostages are out and the violence has stopped. I really hope this lasts and even more then that I hope that Israel can get off of the war footing now and make a rational decision of who they want to lead them moving forward, most of all, I really hope that someone is not Nethyanahu and the other, even more extreme ghouls around him like Smotrich and Ben Gvir. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10837 Posts
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Jankisa
Croatia1087 Posts
I also have no faith that the Israel's politics are going to move in to what they perceive as "concessions for Palestinians", and they have all moved the Overton window so much over there that even not annexing West bank would be "compromise" for them. | ||
KwarK
United States43505 Posts
On October 13 2025 18:08 Ser Galachad wrote: Why did you even respond to that comment before? You're not acting like a 12 year old, you're acting like an edgy 15 year old. You don't need parental supervision, but you're certainly not bringing any voice of reason to the discussion, you mainly want to antagonize it seems like. Do you think that the people of Palestine deserve to have a state and live in peace? Do you believe that the people of Isreal wants the people of Palestine to have a state and live in peace? Do you think the leaders of either faction wishes this? I would like to know your position, because now you make it seem like you don't think Palestinians are real people and because of Hamas they all deserve to starve to death. Now I don't think you believe that, but its the, lets say "energy" you give off when you respond to some people. In my opinion a two state solution is the only one that doesn't end in more genocide and I think Israel is in the best position to facilitate that (with lots of help from the outside for example Egypt needs to step up etc), but what they are doing is only creating more strife and moving away from a solution. Absolutely nothing in your post suggests you have a serious desire for dialogue. If you'd like to lecture me about what you've decided I believe then please feel free to go ahead and do that without me. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9768 Posts
On October 13 2025 22:47 Velr wrote: I'm personally stoked for the ceasefire, can't wait to watch the clusterfuck be in the same spot in 1/5/10/15 years again. Yep. The way this has all played out isn't the way towards long term peace. Probably the vast majority of Gazans are still in the desperate survival phase. That's going to last ages, but when its done they are just going to be angry, mentally ill, destroyed human beings with dead families, no jobs, destroyed infrastructure and nothing to do with their lives except point their fully justified anger and hatred at someone. What do you with a few million of those people? Its either going to go full on war again or Israel will have to put its boot down HARD and then we are back exactly where we were. | ||
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KwarK
United States43505 Posts
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Legan
Finland546 Posts
On October 14 2025 01:29 Jockmcplop wrote: Yep. The way this has all played out isn't the way towards long term peace. Probably the vast majority of Gazans are still in the desperate survival phase. That's going to last ages, but when its done they are just going to be angry, mentally ill, destroyed human beings with dead families, no jobs, destroyed infrastructure and nothing to do with their lives except point their fully justified anger and hatred at someone. What do you with a few million of those people? Its either going to go full on war again or Israel will have to put its boot down HARD and then we are back exactly where we were. It is important to note that many people outside of Palestine will forget in those years the hell Gazans lived through. Then, when conflict flares up again, Gazans will be framed as violent, uncivilised and unreasonable yet again. There isn't really anything that would indicate that people will remember or understand ten years from now why today's starved children would commit violence against Israel. | ||
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Jankisa
Croatia1087 Posts
10 years ago, the settlers were international pariah and UN was with US support naming them and Israeli politicians as such, now, the settler violence has reached unprecedented levels, Israel is on the verge of annexing the west bank, they set up a system that is very hard to not describe as Apartheid 2 tier state and we'll all be sad because "there is nothing to be done". I have a sneaky feeling that Nethyanahu agreed to this current plan because of a wink wink nod nod agreement with Trump to let him annex West Bank, Gaza won't be far behind and then it's anyone's game. | ||
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Billyboy
1399 Posts
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KwarK
United States43505 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28736 Posts
Not saying I'm optimistic about this lasting but it's not one a deal the right wing hardliners in Israel are happy about. | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6261 Posts
On October 14 2025 03:45 Liquid`Drone wrote: From what I'm reading (norwegian source but trustworthy), Trump and his team was genuinely pissed about the attack in Qatar, because they hadn't been notified about it, and this made the Trump admin put full pressure on Nethanyahu. (Norway's prime minister is the source behind this statement, he's a social democrat who is definitely not pro Trump.) My first impression when I saw this agreement was 'what?' - because it was way, way less pro-Israel than I had expected. Not saying I'm optimistic about this lasting but it's not one a deal the right wing hardliners in Israel are happy about. It's true but half the story. The other half was unprecedented pressure from Muslim countries including two of Hamas' largest backers (Qatar, Turkey) and internal pressure in Gaza: SHARM EL SHEIKH—When Hamas leader Khalil Al-Hayya first saw President Trump’s plan for peace in Gaza, which demanded that his group disarm with few concrete steps to ensure Israel would end the war, his immediate reaction was no. The plan, heavily amended by Israel and presented to Hamas by the Qatari prime minister and Egypt’s spy chief, looked nothing like what Hayya had been led to expect, officials familiar with the discussions said. Hayya, who less than a month earlier had been a target of Israel’s audacious attack on Hamas in Qatar, told his visitors the group would keep its Israeli hostages until it had enforceable guarantees the war would end. But two days later, Hamas came back to Arab mediators with a yes. The deal hadn’t changed. The pressure on Hamas had. Egypt and Qatar told Hayya the deal was his last chance to end the war, according to the officials. They pressed Hamas to understand that holding the hostages was becoming a strategic liability, giving Israel a source of legitimacy to keep fighting. The next day, joined by Turkey, they warned him that if Hamas didn’t approve the plan it would be stripped of all political and diplomatic cover; Qatar and Turkey would no longer host the group’s political leadership, and Egypt would stop pressing for Hamas to have a say in Gaza’s postwar governance, the officials said. It was enough to get Hamas to agree to release all its hostages in Gaza and sign on to the first part of Trump’s peace deal, giving up what had been its most important bargaining chip to keep a seat at the table. While modifying its acceptance with heavy caveats that reflected its concerns about the deal, Hamas had given Trump an opportunity to declare victory and set the stage for a hostage release early this week. “Hamas themselves have been under a lot of pressure from regional mediators,” said Tahani Mustafa, a visiting fellow at the European Council on Foreign Relations. “Hamas also knows that they’re not probably going to politically survive this if things continue down this route, especially given that their popularity is declining.” Qatar and Egypt didn’t reply to requests for comment. Asked about being pressured into a deal, Khaled Al-Qaddoumi, Hamas’s representative in Tehran, said the group had endorsed Trump’s proposal because it guaranteed Palestinians wouldn’t be forced out of Gaza and paved the way for humanitarian aid and reconstruction. Qaddoumi said the group is now counting on Trump to ensure Israel doesn’t go back to fighting. The campaign that forced Hamas to accept a deal it didn’t want was the result of weeks of effort by the Trump team to bring Middle East powers including Egypt, Qatar and Turkey together in a coordinated push to get Hamas to agree to sign up. Critics have long wanted Arab mediators to do more to pressure Hamas into ending the war. But this time, conditions were ripe. “I think everybody just wanted to be done with this,” said Michael Ratney, a former U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia and top diplomat in Israel. Better relations with Turkey and the Gulf gave Trump leverage among countries with ties to Hamas. Meanwhile, the Gulf states had become alarmed that the war could endanger their own security after the Israeli airstrike against Hamas in Qatar. Hamas also was under growing pressure at home—short on funds, barely able to keep up a guerrilla war against Israeli forces that have seized much of Gaza, and facing a Palestinian public that has suffered hunger and ruin and just wanted the war to be over. www.wsj.com Trump played it well. First agree on a plan with everyone but Israel and Hamas. Then force Israel to accept. After that Hamas was the only holdout so all pressure was on Hamas. | ||
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KwarK
United States43505 Posts
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Razyda
896 Posts
On October 14 2025 07:48 KwarK wrote: We’ll see. I’d like to be proven wrong about the irreconcilable structural causes of the conflict but I don’t think the team of Israeli leadership and Tony Blair are going to do it. If there’s a decisive political rout of the Israeli right then I’d have more hope. Kinda this. I mean it is great that there is some sort of ceasefire, but I honestly struggle to see it last. | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6261 Posts
After Hamas breaches deal, Israel fears group hiding deceased hostages for future negotiations Israel had expected only a small number of hostages’ bodies to be returned after the 72-hour deadline following the IDF pullback to the 'yellow line,' but not as few as four; still, Jerusalem is unlikely to react harshly so as not to spoil Trump’s celebration Israeli officials expressed shock and frustration Monday after Hamas transferred to Israel only four bodies of hostages, far fewer than expected and in violation of the agreement that was supposed to see all hostages — living and dead — returned by midday. The four bodies, which have not yet been formally identified, arrived Monday evening at the National Center of Forensic Medicine in Tel Aviv. Hamas claimed the bodies were those of Daniel Peretz, Bipin Joshi, Guy Illouz, and Yossi Sharabi, who were among the hostages taken during the Oct. 7 attacks. Israeli officials said they do not believe Hamas’s claim that it does not know the whereabouts of other deceased hostages. The small number returned also contradicts previous statements by Hamas during negotiations in Sharm el-Sheikh, where it had said it knew the location of a larger group of hostages’ remains. Under the terms of the agreement, Hamas was obligated to return all hostages — both the living and the dead — by 12 p.m. Monday, marking the end of a 72-hour deadline that began when Israeli forces withdrew to what officials call the “yellow line” inside Gaza. www.ynetnews.com | ||
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PremoBeats
539 Posts
On September 23 2025 03:31 PremoBeats wrote: I see what you’re getting at, but I’m not convinced how your approach would actually make things easier in practice. Cause if we start segmenting people into groups, we immediately run into the problem of misclassification. People rarely fit neatly into one background and with intersectional factors (class, culture, trauma, health, etc.), the number of possible “groups” is almost endless. Doesn’t that make things even more complicated than an individual assessment? And even if you could put people into the “right” groups, you’d still need psychologists or social workers to look at each case to see whether the classification makes sense. At that point, aren’t we back at individualized analysis anyway? That’s why I struggle to see the added value of group-based justice over the current model. To me it seems you just shift the same difficulties around without actually solving them. Also, you didn’t really touch on the original question of cultural upbringing. If a person comes from a cultural environment that discourages responsibility or encourages harmful, immoral or inhumane behavior, should that count as a mitigating factor, or not? Isn't it about nuance? You can believe in animal welfare but still condemn people who burn down slaughterhouses or attack researchers. Or someone being for urgent action in regards to climate change but opposing people who vandalize art. You as a government can be against the methods (breaking into arms factories, vandalism, targeting executive's homes, arson and sabotages), but not against the goal itself (helping the Palestinian population) But here the issue also is about the surrendering party. Starmer made it clear that this announcement is not including Hamas who are at war. The PA can't really surrender on behalf of the Hamas, as Hamas won't give two shits about the PA's opinion anyhow. None of these technicalities change the fact of the horrific humanitarian situation, but phase 2 never came into full effect as per the original plan and was never successfully agreed upon or implemented in a binding manner. Breaking the agreement does not necessarily have to involve bombing. Both sides accused each other of breaking the agreement. But as you said before that "2 phases were done": Please explain how, if phase 2 should include the release of all remaining living hostages? My take: Phase 1 ended on March 2nd, negotiations for phase 2 never produced a binding agreement. That is why it is undeniable that phase 2 never "finished" (among the fact that there are still living hostages with Hamas). And if you want to keep conflating that denying the legal application of the genocide label when the civilian-to-soldier casualty rates are comparable to similar conflicts is the same as denying the actual Holocaust, be my guest. I am not insulted by that as I know that this comparison is a false equivalence. I simply pointed out that it is quite ironic how you lament about another user being insulting when you throw out such accusations, without discussing the context. You keep outlining your vision of rehabilitation, but you’re still kind of dodging the core issues I raised: 1. Cultural upbringing: Do you think growing up in an environment that discourages responsibility or normalizes harmful behavior should count as a mitigating factor, or not? 2. Practicality of “group-based justice”: If you divide offenders into groups with “collective experiences,” how do you avoid misclassification or overlap (poverty + trauma + culture, etc.)? Wouldn’t you still need individual experts to check every case - which brings us back to the same difficulties you wanted to escape? 3. Added value over individual justice: You argue the current system is flawed, but what exactly does your model solve that individualized assessment doesn’t? From where I stand, it just shifts the complexity around. Could you answer these directly? Otherwise it feels like you’re circling around the main point  On September 23 2025 06:04 Jankisa wrote: I don't mind being insulted, I do mind when people engage in bad faith and then go on insulting people for calling them out. Regarding the Phase 1 Phase 2, that was a mix-up on the timeline on my end, my bad, apologies. The rest of the stuff, as you apparently agree is factual and to me it's very hard to read as anything other than "Israel wants to continue the war and that's why they broke the ceasefire". The genocide denying talking points, not really interested, as I said many times before I didn't think it was a genocide and was even supportive of Israel's efforts in Gaza for a while after October 7th, I wasn't on board up until about a year ago when it became very apparent that this is not about hostages or even October 7th anymore, as the situation progressed and got worse and worse, adding more genocide defining developments, I changed my mind. You, on the other hand don't seem interested in updating your view on the situation at al. Look at it from Israel's perspective: From their POV Hamas broke the agreement which would have resulted in a permanent ceasefire and the freeing of the hostages. As their goal is to eradicate Hamas and free the hostages they continued the attacks to achieve these goals. I am not saying that I know exactly who fucked up, I am simply saying that both accuse the other of breaking the agreement and logically follow up with a way to achieve their goals. I think its unfair to say that you aren't interested in talking about the genocide points while dishing out a verdict. I am open to talk exactly about how you arrived at the conclusion that Israel’s war effort is not about 7th of October, the hostages or how the genocide defining developments, you wrote about, changed. I haven’t “updated my view”, because the main definitions and the surrounding parameters in regards to genocide have not changed, as far as I can tell. The only thing that went up is the overall death count, which is to be expected in on-going conflicts. - The civilian-to-soldier casualty rate is still comparable to similar conflicts, even though the IDF faces tactics and demographics that make Gaza a much tougher conflict - We have no direct orders, memos, protocols or governmental decisions indicating genocide - A couple of ministers have uttered genocidal language, but the overall governmental body has not The simple fact that Israel could do so much more in terms of military civilian damage as well as supply of water and electricity simply does not spell “genocide” for me This is a war with comparable numbers to similar conflicts and we need legal distinctions between the terms “war crime”, “genocide” and even “ethnic cleansing”. They are different words with different meanings, as KwarK said in another reply. I think it is evident that there were singular genocidal actions by Israeli individuals or groups. I think it is evident that Israel committed at least one major war crime when the collective punishment of aid was enacted. But what separates it from a genocide is intent. The same is true about ethnic cleansings. If your intent is to bring a population into Gulags, where they die, the intent is genocidal. If you displace them to other countries the intent is not destruction, even though it is a catastrophic consequence nevertheless. And believe me, when I say that if we see similar evidence to other genocidal verdicts from the past in this conflict as well, I will tell you that I updated my opinion. But so far, the talking points that have been made in this thread simply didn't convince me. Be it the death ratios of children (about 40% of Gaza's population is 14 years old or younger and the territory's median age was 18 in 2020), "journalists" (people who have an instagram account or post on YouTube like Mr. FAFO), or aid workers, etc. All these can be explained by demographics or the population density coupled with Hamas' tactics and even Israel's acknowledgment of the sheer numbers of strikes in such a small area being unprecedented. When operations rely heavily on aerial or drone-based targeting in dense environments, the margin for error (also misidentification) widens dramatically. That is tragic, horrific and unfair... but it is not a genocide. On September 30 2025 23:57 KwarK wrote: So for me the Hamas attacks on Israel aren’t genocide because they never had a chance of killing all the Israelis. For the fulfillment of genocide, you only need intent, not ability. The definition says “in whole or in part”. Only because Hamas lacks the means, doesn’t lead to them being non-genocidal, imo. Their intent was to destroy the Israelis in part or whole and they succeeded in doing so (admittedly in much smaller quantities or relations as other examples). I’d add that the ethnic cleansing part can also be achieved through the destruction of homes and public infrastructure. On October 14 2025 13:24 RvB wrote: Hamas is already breaking the terms of the ceasefire. www.ynetnews.com Well, no surprises there. Hamas wants this war to continue and be as bloody as possible without them completely losing. They thrive on the suffering of the Palestinian population... it is an insanely good cash cow for them. The more the suffering, the more they receive donations. But paint me slightly hopeful... Israel in the past has always chosen potential peace over territory. Be it Sinai with Egypt 1982, West Bank during Oslo, Jordan 1994, Gaza 2005 and even 2000 in South Lebanon, where Israel “only” got a UN-certified withdrawal. Israeli polls only soared into war-territory when severe attacks by the Palestinians happened. Most Israelis probably realized by now, it was a bad move for Israel and the whole region for the central parties to deny Netanyahu a more center-based coalition, forcing him to collude with the extreme right-wingers Smodritch and Ben-Gvir. If the center parties had joined a coalition, Netanyahu wouldn’t have needed to depend on the extremists and we might have been able to avoid the current policy escalations... hopefully they learned from this shitshow. I further hope we will see a change in government, politics and the Palestinian fate at the next elections in 2026… but that is also dependent on their leading party to change or give up their rabid, religiously motivated desire to annihilate Israel for its mere existence. | ||
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