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On October 06 2025 02:01 RvB wrote:
Palestine is not Hamas. Thats an oversplification of the internal dynamics of the Palestinians. Gazans are openly critical of them. Something unheard of before the war. They've lost popular support in the strip. Their popularity is high in the West Bank but there they lack hard power. The most popular Palestinian is Marwan Bargouthi (Fatah).
Sure, but that depends what you think free Palestine or from the river to the sea means.
Hamas isn't the only military groups, multiple polls before all these showed a fairly large support for "armed struggle", groups like PIJ.
PCPSR has shown this is a consistent result for years of polling.
2024 poll at West bank and Gaza stripe has it at 54%
Their popularity tends to go up with more armed conflict against Israel as well.
But more importantly, those slogans are all around the globe now.
A more tamed Israel ain't gonna end with a more tamed Palestine imo.
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On October 05 2025 12:03 ETisME wrote:
But how many think Hamas wouldn't do the same as Israel if they had the firepower etc etc.
Well there is one important thing that would be different if the situation was reversed and Hamas was committing a genocide, and it's that all of the people who think the situation is very complex and nuanced today would suddenly find it quite straightforward and simple.
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On October 06 2025 11:19 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2025 12:03 ETisME wrote:
But how many think Hamas wouldn't do the same as Israel if they had the firepower etc etc.
Well there is one important thing that would be different if the situation was reversed and Hamas was committing a genocide, and it's that all of the people who think the situation is very complex and nuanced today would suddenly find it quite straightforward and simple.
True, because Hamas would just kill all of the Israeli's. Not saying I think the Israeli are good guys, but reversing the military situation would mean no alerts, no distinction between military and civilian targets at all, and no hesitations. The (maybe?) 5% of the population would be 99%. Basically the same stuff that we saw in the oct 7 videos, only on a national scale. This conflict has no good guys.
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United States43989 Posts
On October 06 2025 11:19 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2025 12:03 ETisME wrote:
But how many think Hamas wouldn't do the same as Israel if they had the firepower etc etc.
Well there is one important thing that would be different if the situation was reversed and Hamas was committing a genocide, and it's that all of the people who think the situation is very complex and nuanced today would suddenly find it quite straightforward and simple.
Because the tactics and goals are different.
Hamas isn’t wrong because they’re Hamas, they’re wrong because their goal is genocide and their tactic is to rape, murder, and abduct civilians.
If Hamas had the military advantage but maintained their current goals and tactics then yeah, it would be a straightforward and simple situation in which they’d be objectively einzatgruppen. I’d hope that even you can see that.
Now if the whole scenario were reversed so that the Israelis were in Gaza and the Palestinians were an army trying to root out an Israeli terror grouping then no, that wouldn’t be simple and straightforward.
Essentially your post is meaningless. You’ve imagined a different scenario. You’ve not explained that scenario. But you’d like to let us know that within the context of that scenario you’re imagining you imagine other posters to be hypocritical in their application of values. Okay I guess.
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On October 07 2025 11:03 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2025 11:19 Nebuchad wrote:On October 05 2025 12:03 ETisME wrote:
But how many think Hamas wouldn't do the same as Israel if they had the firepower etc etc.
Well there is one important thing that would be different if the situation was reversed and Hamas was committing a genocide, and it's that all of the people who think the situation is very complex and nuanced today would suddenly find it quite straightforward and simple. Because the tactics and goals are different. Hamas isn’t wrong because they’re Hamas, they’re wrong because their goal is genocide and their tactic is to rape, murder, and abduct civilians. If Hamas had the military advantage but maintained their current goals and tactics then yeah, it would be a straightforward and simple situation in which they’d be objectively einzatgruppen. I’d hope that even you can see that. Now if the whole scenario were reversed so that the Israelis were in Gaza and the Palestinians were an army trying to root out an Israeli terror grouping then no, that wouldn’t be simple and straightforward. Essentially your post is meaningless. You’ve imagined a different scenario. You’ve not explained that scenario. But you’d like to let us know that within the context of that scenario you’re imagining you imagine other posters to be hypocritical in their application of values. Okay I guess.
Nebuchad's argument is that people who think this war is complex and not a straight forward genocide would immediately recognize and fully agree that Hamas is committing genocide if Hamas had the military advantage and was fighting inside Israel rather than inside Gaza.
At least that's how his comment reads to me. No reason to call it a strawman, he's right.
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On October 07 2025 10:53 aseq wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2025 11:19 Nebuchad wrote:On October 05 2025 12:03 ETisME wrote:
But how many think Hamas wouldn't do the same as Israel if they had the firepower etc etc.
Well there is one important thing that would be different if the situation was reversed and Hamas was committing a genocide, and it's that all of the people who think the situation is very complex and nuanced today would suddenly find it quite straightforward and simple. True, because Hamas would just kill all of the Israeli's. Not saying I think the Israeli are good guys, but reversing the military situation would mean no alerts, no distinction between military and civilian targets at all, and no hesitations. The (maybe?) 5% of the population would be 99%. Basically the same stuff that we saw in the oct 7 videos, only on a national scale. This conflict has no good guys.
Hmm, yeah, what if that wasn't the case though? What if they killed "only" tens of thousands of Israelis? Would you find that complex?
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United States43989 Posts
On October 07 2025 16:26 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2025 11:03 KwarK wrote:On October 06 2025 11:19 Nebuchad wrote:On October 05 2025 12:03 ETisME wrote:
But how many think Hamas wouldn't do the same as Israel if they had the firepower etc etc.
Well there is one important thing that would be different if the situation was reversed and Hamas was committing a genocide, and it's that all of the people who think the situation is very complex and nuanced today would suddenly find it quite straightforward and simple. Because the tactics and goals are different. Hamas isn’t wrong because they’re Hamas, they’re wrong because their goal is genocide and their tactic is to rape, murder, and abduct civilians. If Hamas had the military advantage but maintained their current goals and tactics then yeah, it would be a straightforward and simple situation in which they’d be objectively einzatgruppen. I’d hope that even you can see that. Now if the whole scenario were reversed so that the Israelis were in Gaza and the Palestinians were an army trying to root out an Israeli terror grouping then no, that wouldn’t be simple and straightforward. Essentially your post is meaningless. You’ve imagined a different scenario. You’ve not explained that scenario. But you’d like to let us know that within the context of that scenario you’re imagining you imagine other posters to be hypocritical in their application of values. Okay I guess. Nebuchad's argument is that people who think this war is complex and not a straight forward genocide would immediately recognize and fully agree that Hamas is committing genocide if Hamas had the military advantage and was fighting inside Israel rather than inside Gaza. At least that's how his comment reads to me. No reason to call it a strawman, he's right.
And they’d immediately recognize it as a loaf of bread if it were baked dough.
It also doesn’t rise to the level of an argument. Simply stating that you imagine something to be true is an assertion.
But thanks for letting me know that I had no reason to call it a straw man. Had I used those words your post would certainly have been a response.
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On October 07 2025 22:46 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2025 16:26 Magic Powers wrote:On October 07 2025 11:03 KwarK wrote:On October 06 2025 11:19 Nebuchad wrote:On October 05 2025 12:03 ETisME wrote:
But how many think Hamas wouldn't do the same as Israel if they had the firepower etc etc.
Well there is one important thing that would be different if the situation was reversed and Hamas was committing a genocide, and it's that all of the people who think the situation is very complex and nuanced today would suddenly find it quite straightforward and simple. Because the tactics and goals are different. Hamas isn’t wrong because they’re Hamas, they’re wrong because their goal is genocide and their tactic is to rape, murder, and abduct civilians. If Hamas had the military advantage but maintained their current goals and tactics then yeah, it would be a straightforward and simple situation in which they’d be objectively einzatgruppen. I’d hope that even you can see that. Now if the whole scenario were reversed so that the Israelis were in Gaza and the Palestinians were an army trying to root out an Israeli terror grouping then no, that wouldn’t be simple and straightforward. Essentially your post is meaningless. You’ve imagined a different scenario. You’ve not explained that scenario. But you’d like to let us know that within the context of that scenario you’re imagining you imagine other posters to be hypocritical in their application of values. Okay I guess. Nebuchad's argument is that people who think this war is complex and not a straight forward genocide would immediately recognize and fully agree that Hamas is committing genocide if Hamas had the military advantage and was fighting inside Israel rather than inside Gaza. At least that's how his comment reads to me. No reason to call it a strawman, he's right. And they’d immediately recognize it as a loaf of bread if it were baked dough. It also doesn’t rise to the level of an argument. Simply stating that you imagine something to be true is an assertion. But thanks for letting me know that I had no reason to call it a straw man. Had I used those words your post would certainly have been a response.
Yeah, this is exactly the kind of comment I was talking about. You were doing great for a few weeks or months. Then you went back to your usual antagonism with no substance.
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United States43989 Posts
I genuinely don’t think you’re emotionally mature enough to be on the internet without parental supervision. You jump in and then get your feelings hurt at the mildest things. Perhaps you should stop responding to my posts until you get the help you need.
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On October 08 2025 03:12 KwarK wrote:
I genuinely don’t think you’re emotionally mature enough to be on the internet without parental supervision. You jump in and then get your feelings hurt at the mildest things. Perhaps you should stop responding to my posts until you get the help you need.
I will respond when I feel it's justified. Nebuchad does not deserve your hostility. Neither does GH. Neither does anybody else. You're not deserving of mod powers.
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United States43989 Posts
Pick a lane. You’re either old enough to get involved and deal with heat like “Had I used those words your post would certainly have been a response.” or you’re not. You can’t keep insisting on participation while complaining that it’s all too spicy for you. You, or your guardian, are responsible for keeping you safe online.
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There's exactly one person in this forum who is so emotionally invested that they resort to insulting forum users on the regular.
To oBlade and Razyda => "idiots"
To GH => "asshole", "go fuck yourself"
Just the tip of the iceberg.
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I also refrain from any discussions with Kwark as anything he says sounds like it's from crazy high moral or philosophical ground and anyone who begs to have a different opinion is an amoebe (just this page: "I’d hope that even you can see that"). I know a couple more people irl who do this too, it's too annoying to get involved with and I think it polarizes more than it informs.
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On October 06 2025 10:49 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2025 02:01 RvB wrote:
Palestine is not Hamas. Thats an oversplification of the internal dynamics of the Palestinians. Gazans are openly critical of them. Something unheard of before the war. They've lost popular support in the strip. Their popularity is high in the West Bank but there they lack hard power. The most popular Palestinian is Marwan Bargouthi (Fatah). Sure, but that depends what you think free Palestine or from the river to the sea means. Hamas isn't the only military groups, multiple polls before all these showed a fairly large support for "armed struggle", groups like PIJ. PCPSR has shown this is a consistent result for years of polling. 2024 poll at West bank and Gaza stripe has it at 54% Their popularity tends to go up with more armed conflict against Israel as well. But more importantly, those slogans are all around the globe now. A more tamed Israel ain't gonna end with a more tamed Palestine imo.
It's clear that free Palestine and from the river to the sea mean the destruction of Israel. I'm not disputing that a majority of Palestinians support armed resistance. That does not mean Palestine is the same as Hamas. As you mention there are other armed factions. PIJ is not the only one.
More importantly is that Gazans are tired of war (see below). They want Hamas to take Trump's deal even though none of them trust Israel or thinks it's a good deal. Your comparison with the CCP is flawed. The KMT ruled most of China while the CCP was the opposition. In the Palestinian territories Hamas rules the Gaza strip. It's not a coincidence that they're most unpopular in the place which is suffering the consequences of their actions whereas they're most popular in the place that does not. People aren't stupid. They can see Hamas fighting a hopeless war prioritizing their own survival while stealing humanitarian aid for themselves.
For instance these two articles I read show a pretty clear picture of the general opinion. I've quoted the conclusions.
Many are urging Hamas to accept the deal - they are simply tired of death, displacement and hunger.
And there is a growing view that Hamas has prioritised its own survival over that of Gaza's people.
Two years on, the split is sharper than ever between Hamas loyalists who still defend the movement to the core, and a war-weary majority of Gazans who have lost patience with endless destruction and despair.
www.bbc.com
It is hazardous to generalize about public sentiment in Gaza. There are no reliable opinion surveys. But half a dozen people in the Palestinian enclave reached by The Wall Street Journal all had a consistent message: Hamas should accept the U.S.-brokered deal, despite what they see as its shortcomings.
www.wsj.com
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The big difference (on the discussion above) is that if the roles were reversed, and a vastly superior Palestinian army was decimating Israeli civilian population, leveling their buildings, starving them and killing them by tens of thousands the international community would send in troops and stopped it.
Maybe, given the severity of October 7th they wouldn't have done it for the first week or tree, but once it was obvious that PDF does not give a fuck about Israeli civilian population UN backed by the US and many others would be on site protecting the civilians.
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On October 09 2025 04:07 Jankisa wrote:
The big difference (on the discussion above) is that if the roles were reversed, and a vastly superior Palestinian army was decimating Israeli civilian population, leveling their buildings, starving them and killing them by tens of thousands the international community would send in troops and stopped it.
Maybe, given the severity of October 7th they wouldn't have done it for the first week or tree, but once it was obvious that PDF does not give a fuck about Israeli civilian population UN backed by the US and many others would be on site protecting the civilians.
The way I read KwarK's point is that if we simply change the power balance, it wouldn't be the same because Hamas has made it very clear that they would brutally kill everyone that disagrees with them, including Arabs. If we change it completely including the history, it would be the same as now, just with the different name plates. So Neb's version is somewhere in between and he hasn't explained it and there is no way to accurately guess it. So what it comes down to is he is calling the person a islamaphobe just in a fancy long winded way and is of no more value than if the other guy just called him an anti-semite.
Kwarks was just doing to Neb what he was doing, and Neb did not like it because who would?
Overall it has gotten way to much attention because all that really happened is everyone who wanted to take a shot did and since no one is innocent there is no one to feel bad for so lets all just move on.
In news about the conflict some actual big things are possibly happening. I say possibly because we have been through this again and again.
But it is apparently close to an actual ceasefire that will release all hostages and that Israel is actually going to give up high value prisoners they would never even talk about before, including Barghouti and Saadat (however that one sees to be yes one hour and no the next).
Trump is also apparently talking about traveling there, which he is only going to do if he can get his victory lap to try to get himself a Nobel.
I struggle with being optimistic, but this is most positive news I've read in a VERY long time.
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How many resistance groups have given out statements that they don't aim for total victory over their oppressor and will carve out some sort of reservation or sustained status? Especially as part of their slogans would be interesting to see. Ukraine does not talk about how it may have to give up some land for peace, but keeps stating that it will free everything, including Crimea. Anything otherwise would be considered defeatism. If they discussed giving up Crimea, it could be easier to discuss giving up other parts as well. The same logic applies to Palestinian politics. They can't publicly state such things. If they start to give Israel some kind of isolated reservations, it becomes easier to accept giving up more land. Appeasing Netanyahu, Ben Gvir, and others will only lead to a future where Palestinians are expected to give up even more. The stronger side has always had an easier time making concessions, as they are more likely to be able to push for more later if they decide they want more. The weaker side can only make so many concessions until they have nothing left.
If the situation were flipped, moderate Palestinians would be as likely to be ready to carve out some reservation for Israelis as long as the evil terrorist of Likud would be eliminated. More radical Palestinians would, of course, still act similarly to Netanyahu and Ben Gvir, and demand the removal of Israelis from all of Palestine. The radicals would be similarly likely to hold back to please their supporters and to avoid sanctions. Palestinians, as the stronger side, could make concessions that they currently can't. Any analysis that just jumps to Palestinians committing genocide in a flipped situation is overly simplistic. The change would have a significantly broader impact and would necessitate an examination of how a different history would alter the positions and views held by each side.
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The problem is that Hamas is not a a resistance group. They are a religious cult and one that has to most peoples morality, especially on the left very evil intent to basically everyone not just their oppressors. Even look at Oct 7th, that had absolutely nothing to do with giving Palestinians freedom, agency or a better life.
Good news though is apparently everyone agreed to stage one of the peace plan.
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EPT
