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On June 19 2025 04:30 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2025 03:46 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 19 2025 03:41 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:38 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 19 2025 03:32 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:15 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 19 2025 03:13 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 03:09 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 02:52 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 02:46 Billyboy wrote:
[quote]
It is how it is related to this statement, since what someone is going do is not an object. When Iran is a "pile of rubble" as Mohdoo indicated, do you believe that Iranians will also lick the sole of your shoe or do you think they'll only kiss the top of the shoe Why would Iranians care about me? But ya go to the personal insults when you can not answer with reason as usual. Hopefully you get a better sleep tonight or at least a snickers. Obviously, because Iranians are human beings, they're not going to appreciate being bombed by Israel and possibly the US, including a number of their relatives killed and the stability of their lives destroyed. So, if left to their own devices after this experience, they'll form governments that are hostile to Israel and the US. Israel and the US, being more intelligent than you and Mohdoo, understand that this is going to happen, so they won't let Iranians have agency in their future. They'll either have a fake democracy where every candidate has to publicly declare that Israel has a God given right to kill every Palestinian they want to, or they'll skip the democracy part and directly support some dictator who is pro US. All of this is extremely obvious. I think I read that book. I didn't want to, my history teacher made me. Wait until you get to the sequel where they provide the rest of the information and history. hearing all the sides is going to blow your mind! The point I'm making is I don't think the US and Israel are going to be able to help themselves when the crucial moment arrives. Getting rid of the current leaders in Iran is something I can go along with, if it can be done without wrecking the place ala Iraq. What happens then is something no Western country has ever managed to make a success of. I mean Iran has resources, right? Wouldn't it be so simple for the US to put someone in charge who was generous with their dealmaking when it comes to Iran's resources? Then you end up with the exact situation that started all of this in the first place. Iranians aren't stupid. If the US takes advantage (again) they will revolt (again) and get rid of the leader the US put in place (again) and we'll end up with religious extremists in charge (again). I hope you can see where I'm going with this, because I'm not being subtle about it. I certainly don't think Netenyahu and Donald fucking Trump are going to sit down and have a conversation about what would be best for the Iranian people, do you? Where did you get the impression that I thought that the US was great at nation building and this was going to be a great success? I'll be honest I've just been skimming and I sort of got that feeling. Sorry if I'm wrong. Could you explain very simply what you are thinking about the current operation in Iran, whether its necessary, and if you have any thoughts about what any follow up should be? You don't have to, but it would help me out because I can't be arsed to trawl through all the bad tempered personal battle stuff. I do not really have a firm position, in fact I find it odd that people do considering how many moving parts there are. I think it is a very interesting, albeit mostly depressing topic, so it is nice to hear other peoples views on it. Things I'm sure of is that Iran's government is full evil and so I shed no tears when members who have caused so much pain and suffering are dead. I think Israel is not being "genocidal" when they attack Iran. Iran has been very open in both words and actions that their goal is complete genocide of Israel and Jews in general. I believe that this along with say the pager attack, and taking the uninhabited mountain in Syria to stop arms flow to Hezbollah are reasonable military actions of a country trying to protect their citizens. That does not make it altruistic or anything, it has all the terrible consequences that come with war. I do not believe Nebs theory that Israel is out to conquer the entire middle east and the "axis of resistance" is the only thing stopping them. My reasoning is their long history of trading land for peace. I have very little faith in Iran being rebuilt into some kind of liberal or socialist democracy. I don't believe that has been successfully accomplished since WW2 through war. I think a large percentage of the Iranian people will be hopeful for something better if their government falls, much like Syrians. That is a off the top of my head overview. Let me know if I got to what you were after. Show nested quote +On June 19 2025 03:48 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 03:30 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:13 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 03:09 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 02:52 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 02:46 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 02:44 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 02:43 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 02:39 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
Object permanence. What a fancy way of saying faith in their evil. That is actually not the definition of object permanence, you are wrong. It is how it is related to this statement, since what someone is going do is not an object. When Iran is a "pile of rubble" as Mohdoo indicated, do you believe that Iranians will also lick the sole of your shoe or do you think they'll only kiss the top of the shoe Why would Iranians care about me? But ya go to the personal insults when you can not answer with reason as usual. Hopefully you get a better sleep tonight or at least a snickers. Obviously, because Iranians are human beings, they're not going to appreciate being bombed by Israel and possibly the US, including a number of their relatives killed and the stability of their lives destroyed. So, if left to their own devices after this experience, they'll form governments that are hostile to Israel and the US. Israel and the US, being more intelligent than you and Mohdoo, understand that this is going to happen, so they won't let Iranians have agency in their future. They'll either have a fake democracy where every candidate has to publicly declare that Israel has a God given right to kill every Palestinian they want to, or they'll skip the democracy part and directly support some dictator who is pro US. All of this is extremely obvious. You think the Iranians currently have agency? Are you aware that people don't like to be constantly repressed and having their human rights trampled on by there own government? Women strangely enough like to be treated like humans not property and LGBT people enjoy living. If Khamenei falls there will be plenty of Iranians celebrating. So just to be clear, you think Iranians will celebrate moving from no agency to no agency (+ a bunch of dead people) because they don't have agency right now? On June 19 2025 03:46 Legan wrote:
If bombing the regime away is successful, then in which other cases could this be implemented? Could it work on the Taliban? Maybe Eritrea? Even Hungary? Only nukes seem to protect countries from this. Saudi Arabia I think I suspect they will celebrate the fall of a regime that likely has killed and or tortured members of their families and repressed them all for 50 years. Hopefully they have some optimism with what comes next but I'm sure a heck of a lot more cynicism and fear. Maybe they along with Syria will look for a new path forward, maybe Turkey will be better than the west. I have no idea what will come next, and am baffled that you have such faith in your own predictions. That will change depending on how long the regime holds out and the war continues. Turkey?
Erdogan has turned Turkey into a dictatorship complete with false flag coup to remove his opposition. You think he is going to help Iran become a prosperous democratic nation?
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On June 19 2025 04:58 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2025 04:30 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:46 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 19 2025 03:41 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:38 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 19 2025 03:32 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:15 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 19 2025 03:13 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 03:09 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 02:52 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
When Iran is a "pile of rubble" as Mohdoo indicated, do you believe that Iranians will also lick the sole of your shoe or do you think they'll only kiss the top of the shoe Why would Iranians care about me? But ya go to the personal insults when you can not answer with reason as usual. Hopefully you get a better sleep tonight or at least a snickers. Obviously, because Iranians are human beings, they're not going to appreciate being bombed by Israel and possibly the US, including a number of their relatives killed and the stability of their lives destroyed. So, if left to their own devices after this experience, they'll form governments that are hostile to Israel and the US. Israel and the US, being more intelligent than you and Mohdoo, understand that this is going to happen, so they won't let Iranians have agency in their future. They'll either have a fake democracy where every candidate has to publicly declare that Israel has a God given right to kill every Palestinian they want to, or they'll skip the democracy part and directly support some dictator who is pro US. All of this is extremely obvious. I think I read that book. I didn't want to, my history teacher made me. Wait until you get to the sequel where they provide the rest of the information and history. hearing all the sides is going to blow your mind! The point I'm making is I don't think the US and Israel are going to be able to help themselves when the crucial moment arrives. Getting rid of the current leaders in Iran is something I can go along with, if it can be done without wrecking the place ala Iraq. What happens then is something no Western country has ever managed to make a success of. I mean Iran has resources, right? Wouldn't it be so simple for the US to put someone in charge who was generous with their dealmaking when it comes to Iran's resources? Then you end up with the exact situation that started all of this in the first place. Iranians aren't stupid. If the US takes advantage (again) they will revolt (again) and get rid of the leader the US put in place (again) and we'll end up with religious extremists in charge (again). I hope you can see where I'm going with this, because I'm not being subtle about it. I certainly don't think Netenyahu and Donald fucking Trump are going to sit down and have a conversation about what would be best for the Iranian people, do you? Where did you get the impression that I thought that the US was great at nation building and this was going to be a great success? I'll be honest I've just been skimming and I sort of got that feeling. Sorry if I'm wrong. Could you explain very simply what you are thinking about the current operation in Iran, whether its necessary, and if you have any thoughts about what any follow up should be? You don't have to, but it would help me out because I can't be arsed to trawl through all the bad tempered personal battle stuff. I do not really have a firm position, in fact I find it odd that people do considering how many moving parts there are. I think it is a very interesting, albeit mostly depressing topic, so it is nice to hear other peoples views on it. Things I'm sure of is that Iran's government is full evil and so I shed no tears when members who have caused so much pain and suffering are dead. I think Israel is not being "genocidal" when they attack Iran. Iran has been very open in both words and actions that their goal is complete genocide of Israel and Jews in general. I believe that this along with say the pager attack, and taking the uninhabited mountain in Syria to stop arms flow to Hezbollah are reasonable military actions of a country trying to protect their citizens. That does not make it altruistic or anything, it has all the terrible consequences that come with war. I do not believe Nebs theory that Israel is out to conquer the entire middle east and the "axis of resistance" is the only thing stopping them. My reasoning is their long history of trading land for peace. I have very little faith in Iran being rebuilt into some kind of liberal or socialist democracy. I don't believe that has been successfully accomplished since WW2 through war. I think a large percentage of the Iranian people will be hopeful for something better if their government falls, much like Syrians. That is a off the top of my head overview. Let me know if I got to what you were after. On June 19 2025 03:48 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 03:30 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:13 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 03:09 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 02:52 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 02:46 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 02:44 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 02:43 Billyboy wrote:
[quote]
What a fancy way of saying faith in their evil. That is actually not the definition of object permanence, you are wrong. It is how it is related to this statement, since what someone is going do is not an object. When Iran is a "pile of rubble" as Mohdoo indicated, do you believe that Iranians will also lick the sole of your shoe or do you think they'll only kiss the top of the shoe Why would Iranians care about me? But ya go to the personal insults when you can not answer with reason as usual. Hopefully you get a better sleep tonight or at least a snickers. Obviously, because Iranians are human beings, they're not going to appreciate being bombed by Israel and possibly the US, including a number of their relatives killed and the stability of their lives destroyed. So, if left to their own devices after this experience, they'll form governments that are hostile to Israel and the US. Israel and the US, being more intelligent than you and Mohdoo, understand that this is going to happen, so they won't let Iranians have agency in their future. They'll either have a fake democracy where every candidate has to publicly declare that Israel has a God given right to kill every Palestinian they want to, or they'll skip the democracy part and directly support some dictator who is pro US. All of this is extremely obvious. You think the Iranians currently have agency? Are you aware that people don't like to be constantly repressed and having their human rights trampled on by there own government? Women strangely enough like to be treated like humans not property and LGBT people enjoy living. If Khamenei falls there will be plenty of Iranians celebrating. So just to be clear, you think Iranians will celebrate moving from no agency to no agency (+ a bunch of dead people) because they don't have agency right now? On June 19 2025 03:46 Legan wrote:
If bombing the regime away is successful, then in which other cases could this be implemented? Could it work on the Taliban? Maybe Eritrea? Even Hungary? Only nukes seem to protect countries from this. Saudi Arabia I think I suspect they will celebrate the fall of a regime that likely has killed and or tortured members of their families and repressed them all for 50 years. Hopefully they have some optimism with what comes next but I'm sure a heck of a lot more cynicism and fear. Maybe they along with Syria will look for a new path forward, maybe Turkey will be better than the west. I have no idea what will come next, and am baffled that you have such faith in your own predictions. That will change depending on how long the regime holds out and the war continues. Turkey? Erdogan has turned Turkey into a dictatorship complete with false flag coup to remove his opposition. You think he is going to help Iran become a prosperous democratic nation?
I think Turkey has taken over for Russia as a key player in the middle east. Someone is going to fill the void they seem like the most likely. It has not been the US or Israel filling it so far. Do you even read the posts or just try to find sweet burns? Because I'm pretty fucking clear that I don't think a free and fair democracy is incoming.
Me:
I have very little faith in Iran being rebuilt into some kind of liberal or socialist democracy. I don't believe that has been successfully accomplished since WW2 through war.
Still waiting on your answer from pages back after your two times ago fail where you speak of your head cannon as absolutes. Keep trying though it is real fun.... Or mix it up and make a thoughtful post for a change, you might not have faith in you, but I do.
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On June 19 2025 04:30 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2025 03:46 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 19 2025 03:41 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:38 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 19 2025 03:32 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:15 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 19 2025 03:13 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 03:09 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 02:52 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 02:46 Billyboy wrote:
[quote]
It is how it is related to this statement, since what someone is going do is not an object. When Iran is a "pile of rubble" as Mohdoo indicated, do you believe that Iranians will also lick the sole of your shoe or do you think they'll only kiss the top of the shoe Why would Iranians care about me? But ya go to the personal insults when you can not answer with reason as usual. Hopefully you get a better sleep tonight or at least a snickers. Obviously, because Iranians are human beings, they're not going to appreciate being bombed by Israel and possibly the US, including a number of their relatives killed and the stability of their lives destroyed. So, if left to their own devices after this experience, they'll form governments that are hostile to Israel and the US. Israel and the US, being more intelligent than you and Mohdoo, understand that this is going to happen, so they won't let Iranians have agency in their future. They'll either have a fake democracy where every candidate has to publicly declare that Israel has a God given right to kill every Palestinian they want to, or they'll skip the democracy part and directly support some dictator who is pro US. All of this is extremely obvious. I think I read that book. I didn't want to, my history teacher made me. Wait until you get to the sequel where they provide the rest of the information and history. hearing all the sides is going to blow your mind! The point I'm making is I don't think the US and Israel are going to be able to help themselves when the crucial moment arrives. Getting rid of the current leaders in Iran is something I can go along with, if it can be done without wrecking the place ala Iraq. What happens then is something no Western country has ever managed to make a success of. I mean Iran has resources, right? Wouldn't it be so simple for the US to put someone in charge who was generous with their dealmaking when it comes to Iran's resources? Then you end up with the exact situation that started all of this in the first place. Iranians aren't stupid. If the US takes advantage (again) they will revolt (again) and get rid of the leader the US put in place (again) and we'll end up with religious extremists in charge (again). I hope you can see where I'm going with this, because I'm not being subtle about it. I certainly don't think Netenyahu and Donald fucking Trump are going to sit down and have a conversation about what would be best for the Iranian people, do you? Where did you get the impression that I thought that the US was great at nation building and this was going to be a great success? I'll be honest I've just been skimming and I sort of got that feeling. Sorry if I'm wrong. Could you explain very simply what you are thinking about the current operation in Iran, whether its necessary, and if you have any thoughts about what any follow up should be? You don't have to, but it would help me out because I can't be arsed to trawl through all the bad tempered personal battle stuff. I do not really have a firm position, in fact I find it odd that people do considering how many moving parts there are. I think it is a very interesting, albeit mostly depressing topic, so it is nice to hear other peoples views on it. Things I'm sure of is that Iran's government is full evil and so I shed no tears when members who have caused so much pain and suffering are dead. I think Israel is not being "genocidal" when they attack Iran. Iran has been very open in both words and actions that their goal is complete genocide of Israel and Jews in general. I believe that this along with say the pager attack, and taking the uninhabited mountain in Syria to stop arms flow to Hezbollah are reasonable military actions of a country trying to protect their citizens. That does not make it altruistic or anything, it has all the terrible consequences that come with war. I do not believe Nebs theory that Israel is out to conquer the entire middle east and the "axis of resistance" is the only thing stopping them. My reasoning is their long history of trading land for peace. I have very little faith in Iran being rebuilt into some kind of liberal or socialist democracy. I don't believe that has been successfully accomplished since WW2 through war. I think a large percentage of the Iranian people will be hopeful for something better if their government falls, much like Syrians. That is a off the top of my head overview. Let me know if I got to what you were after.
The reason I asked you to post is this is that its alot easier to discuss it with you when I know where you stand on it. Bobbing and weaving is great in boxing but it can be frustrating in a conversation!
Its pretty hard to disagree with any of that from where I am. I have zero faith in Israel and the US to actually improve things for Iran, but the people I know over there are extremely desperate for some kind of change and completely unable to affect that change themselves.
An entrenched dictatorship that oppresses its people is a problem with almost no solution, unless some kind of power with good intentions comes along and I'm not sure I've seen that in my lifetime.
The messages I'm getting from Iran are messages of hope, and I've replied that it might be best to temper expectations.
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Might work since prior to bombing Iran it was getting deeply unpopular due to handling of Gaza. Bombing Iran will gain them short term positive attention but if it drags out too long Gaza will drag them down again.
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Northern Ireland26967 Posts
In more Israel-Palestine news
Eleven killed by Israeli fire while seeking aid in Gaza, rescuers say - BBC
While this Iran escalation is currently grabbing the headlines, it doesn’t appear that things are particularly letting up in that conflict. The timeline of purported incidents is particularly grim reading.
I must say I hadn’t realised we had separate organisations from the UN now administering aid delivery and hiring private security contractors to do it. Can’t say I know enough to comment on the particulars, although my eyebrows are slightly raised.
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Consistent with the old quotes from Netanyahu about how it's good to use periods of international turmoil, when the international community is focused elsewhere, to accelerate the taking of palestinian land.
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Northern Ireland26967 Posts
On June 19 2025 05:57 Nebuchad wrote:Consistent with the old quotes from Netanyahu about how it's good to use periods of international turmoil, when the international community is focused elsewhere, to accelerate the taking of palestinian land.
It’s truly remarkable how many folks the IDF kill with warning shots. I’m surprised they can hit anything they’re actually aiming at.
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On June 19 2025 04:30 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2025 03:46 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 19 2025 03:41 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:38 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 19 2025 03:32 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:15 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 19 2025 03:13 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 03:09 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 02:52 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 02:46 Billyboy wrote:
[quote]
It is how it is related to this statement, since what someone is going do is not an object. When Iran is a "pile of rubble" as Mohdoo indicated, do you believe that Iranians will also lick the sole of your shoe or do you think they'll only kiss the top of the shoe Why would Iranians care about me? But ya go to the personal insults when you can not answer with reason as usual. Hopefully you get a better sleep tonight or at least a snickers. Obviously, because Iranians are human beings, they're not going to appreciate being bombed by Israel and possibly the US, including a number of their relatives killed and the stability of their lives destroyed. So, if left to their own devices after this experience, they'll form governments that are hostile to Israel and the US. Israel and the US, being more intelligent than you and Mohdoo, understand that this is going to happen, so they won't let Iranians have agency in their future. They'll either have a fake democracy where every candidate has to publicly declare that Israel has a God given right to kill every Palestinian they want to, or they'll skip the democracy part and directly support some dictator who is pro US. All of this is extremely obvious. I think I read that book. I didn't want to, my history teacher made me. Wait until you get to the sequel where they provide the rest of the information and history. hearing all the sides is going to blow your mind! The point I'm making is I don't think the US and Israel are going to be able to help themselves when the crucial moment arrives. Getting rid of the current leaders in Iran is something I can go along with, if it can be done without wrecking the place ala Iraq. What happens then is something no Western country has ever managed to make a success of. I mean Iran has resources, right? Wouldn't it be so simple for the US to put someone in charge who was generous with their dealmaking when it comes to Iran's resources? Then you end up with the exact situation that started all of this in the first place. Iranians aren't stupid. If the US takes advantage (again) they will revolt (again) and get rid of the leader the US put in place (again) and we'll end up with religious extremists in charge (again). I hope you can see where I'm going with this, because I'm not being subtle about it. I certainly don't think Netenyahu and Donald fucking Trump are going to sit down and have a conversation about what would be best for the Iranian people, do you? Where did you get the impression that I thought that the US was great at nation building and this was going to be a great success? I'll be honest I've just been skimming and I sort of got that feeling. Sorry if I'm wrong. Could you explain very simply what you are thinking about the current operation in Iran, whether its necessary, and if you have any thoughts about what any follow up should be? You don't have to, but it would help me out because I can't be arsed to trawl through all the bad tempered personal battle stuff. I do not really have a firm position, in fact I find it odd that people do considering how many moving parts there are. I think it is a very interesting, albeit mostly depressing topic, so it is nice to hear other peoples views on it. Things I'm sure of is that Iran's government is full evil and so I shed no tears when members who have caused so much pain and suffering are dead.
I think Israel is not being "genocidal" when they attack Iran. Iran has been very open in both words and actions that their goal is complete genocide of Israel and Jews in general. I believe that this along with say the pager attack, and taking the uninhabited mountain in Syria to stop arms flow to Hezbollah are reasonable military actions of a country trying to protect their citizens. That does not make it altruistic or anything, it has all the terrible consequences that come with war. I do not believe Nebs theory that Israel is out to conquer the entire middle east and the "axis of resistance" is the only thing stopping them. My reasoning is their long history of trading land for peace. I have very little faith in Iran being rebuilt into some kind of liberal or socialist democracy. I don't believe that has been successfully accomplished since WW2 through war. I think a large percentage of the Iranian people will be hopeful for something better if their government falls, much like Syrians. That is a off the top of my head overview. Let me know if I got to what you were after. Show nested quote +On June 19 2025 03:48 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 03:30 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:13 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 03:09 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 02:52 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 02:46 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 02:44 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 02:43 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 02:39 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
Object permanence. What a fancy way of saying faith in their evil. That is actually not the definition of object permanence, you are wrong. It is how it is related to this statement, since what someone is going do is not an object. When Iran is a "pile of rubble" as Mohdoo indicated, do you believe that Iranians will also lick the sole of your shoe or do you think they'll only kiss the top of the shoe Why would Iranians care about me? But ya go to the personal insults when you can not answer with reason as usual. Hopefully you get a better sleep tonight or at least a snickers. Obviously, because Iranians are human beings, they're not going to appreciate being bombed by Israel and possibly the US, including a number of their relatives killed and the stability of their lives destroyed. So, if left to their own devices after this experience, they'll form governments that are hostile to Israel and the US. Israel and the US, being more intelligent than you and Mohdoo, understand that this is going to happen, so they won't let Iranians have agency in their future. They'll either have a fake democracy where every candidate has to publicly declare that Israel has a God given right to kill every Palestinian they want to, or they'll skip the democracy part and directly support some dictator who is pro US. All of this is extremely obvious. You think the Iranians currently have agency? Are you aware that people don't like to be constantly repressed and having their human rights trampled on by there own government? Women strangely enough like to be treated like humans not property and LGBT people enjoy living. If Khamenei falls there will be plenty of Iranians celebrating. So just to be clear, you think Iranians will celebrate moving from no agency to no agency (+ a bunch of dead people) because they don't have agency right now? On June 19 2025 03:46 Legan wrote:
If bombing the regime away is successful, then in which other cases could this be implemented? Could it work on the Taliban? Maybe Eritrea? Even Hungary? Only nukes seem to protect countries from this. Saudi Arabia I think I suspect they will celebrate the fall of a regime that likely has killed and or tortured members of their families and repressed them all for 50 years. Hopefully they have some optimism with what comes next but I'm sure a heck of a lot more cynicism and fear. Maybe they along with Syria will look for a new path forward, maybe Turkey will be better than the west. I have no idea what will come next, and am baffled that you have such faith in your own predictions. That will change depending on how long the regime holds out and the war continues.
"Things I'm sure of is that[...] is full evil and so I shed no tears when members who have caused so much pain and suffering are dead." - This is most dangerous world view one can have actually.
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On June 19 2025 07:50 Razyda wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2025 04:30 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:46 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 19 2025 03:41 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:38 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 19 2025 03:32 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:15 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 19 2025 03:13 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 03:09 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 02:52 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
When Iran is a "pile of rubble" as Mohdoo indicated, do you believe that Iranians will also lick the sole of your shoe or do you think they'll only kiss the top of the shoe Why would Iranians care about me? But ya go to the personal insults when you can not answer with reason as usual. Hopefully you get a better sleep tonight or at least a snickers. Obviously, because Iranians are human beings, they're not going to appreciate being bombed by Israel and possibly the US, including a number of their relatives killed and the stability of their lives destroyed. So, if left to their own devices after this experience, they'll form governments that are hostile to Israel and the US. Israel and the US, being more intelligent than you and Mohdoo, understand that this is going to happen, so they won't let Iranians have agency in their future. They'll either have a fake democracy where every candidate has to publicly declare that Israel has a God given right to kill every Palestinian they want to, or they'll skip the democracy part and directly support some dictator who is pro US. All of this is extremely obvious. I think I read that book. I didn't want to, my history teacher made me. Wait until you get to the sequel where they provide the rest of the information and history. hearing all the sides is going to blow your mind! The point I'm making is I don't think the US and Israel are going to be able to help themselves when the crucial moment arrives. Getting rid of the current leaders in Iran is something I can go along with, if it can be done without wrecking the place ala Iraq. What happens then is something no Western country has ever managed to make a success of. I mean Iran has resources, right? Wouldn't it be so simple for the US to put someone in charge who was generous with their dealmaking when it comes to Iran's resources? Then you end up with the exact situation that started all of this in the first place. Iranians aren't stupid. If the US takes advantage (again) they will revolt (again) and get rid of the leader the US put in place (again) and we'll end up with religious extremists in charge (again). I hope you can see where I'm going with this, because I'm not being subtle about it. I certainly don't think Netenyahu and Donald fucking Trump are going to sit down and have a conversation about what would be best for the Iranian people, do you? Where did you get the impression that I thought that the US was great at nation building and this was going to be a great success? I'll be honest I've just been skimming and I sort of got that feeling. Sorry if I'm wrong. Could you explain very simply what you are thinking about the current operation in Iran, whether its necessary, and if you have any thoughts about what any follow up should be? You don't have to, but it would help me out because I can't be arsed to trawl through all the bad tempered personal battle stuff. I do not really have a firm position, in fact I find it odd that people do considering how many moving parts there are. I think it is a very interesting, albeit mostly depressing topic, so it is nice to hear other peoples views on it. Things I'm sure of is that Iran's government is full evil and so I shed no tears when members who have caused so much pain and suffering are dead.
I think Israel is not being "genocidal" when they attack Iran. Iran has been very open in both words and actions that their goal is complete genocide of Israel and Jews in general. I believe that this along with say the pager attack, and taking the uninhabited mountain in Syria to stop arms flow to Hezbollah are reasonable military actions of a country trying to protect their citizens. That does not make it altruistic or anything, it has all the terrible consequences that come with war. I do not believe Nebs theory that Israel is out to conquer the entire middle east and the "axis of resistance" is the only thing stopping them. My reasoning is their long history of trading land for peace. I have very little faith in Iran being rebuilt into some kind of liberal or socialist democracy. I don't believe that has been successfully accomplished since WW2 through war. I think a large percentage of the Iranian people will be hopeful for something better if their government falls, much like Syrians. That is a off the top of my head overview. Let me know if I got to what you were after. On June 19 2025 03:48 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 03:30 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:13 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 03:09 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 02:52 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 02:46 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 02:44 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 02:43 Billyboy wrote:
[quote]
What a fancy way of saying faith in their evil. That is actually not the definition of object permanence, you are wrong. It is how it is related to this statement, since what someone is going do is not an object. When Iran is a "pile of rubble" as Mohdoo indicated, do you believe that Iranians will also lick the sole of your shoe or do you think they'll only kiss the top of the shoe Why would Iranians care about me? But ya go to the personal insults when you can not answer with reason as usual. Hopefully you get a better sleep tonight or at least a snickers. Obviously, because Iranians are human beings, they're not going to appreciate being bombed by Israel and possibly the US, including a number of their relatives killed and the stability of their lives destroyed. So, if left to their own devices after this experience, they'll form governments that are hostile to Israel and the US. Israel and the US, being more intelligent than you and Mohdoo, understand that this is going to happen, so they won't let Iranians have agency in their future. They'll either have a fake democracy where every candidate has to publicly declare that Israel has a God given right to kill every Palestinian they want to, or they'll skip the democracy part and directly support some dictator who is pro US. All of this is extremely obvious. You think the Iranians currently have agency? Are you aware that people don't like to be constantly repressed and having their human rights trampled on by there own government? Women strangely enough like to be treated like humans not property and LGBT people enjoy living. If Khamenei falls there will be plenty of Iranians celebrating. So just to be clear, you think Iranians will celebrate moving from no agency to no agency (+ a bunch of dead people) because they don't have agency right now? On June 19 2025 03:46 Legan wrote:
If bombing the regime away is successful, then in which other cases could this be implemented? Could it work on the Taliban? Maybe Eritrea? Even Hungary? Only nukes seem to protect countries from this. Saudi Arabia I think I suspect they will celebrate the fall of a regime that likely has killed and or tortured members of their families and repressed them all for 50 years. Hopefully they have some optimism with what comes next but I'm sure a heck of a lot more cynicism and fear. Maybe they along with Syria will look for a new path forward, maybe Turkey will be better than the west. I have no idea what will come next, and am baffled that you have such faith in your own predictions. That will change depending on how long the regime holds out and the war continues. "Things I'm sure of is that[...] is full evil and so I shed no tears when members who have caused so much pain and suffering are dead." - This is most dangerous world view one can have actually.
Is it? What are the good things about the Islamic Revolutionary Guard? And the Islamic Republic of Iran?
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On June 19 2025 08:12 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2025 07:50 Razyda wrote:On June 19 2025 04:30 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:46 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 19 2025 03:41 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:38 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 19 2025 03:32 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:15 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 19 2025 03:13 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 03:09 Billyboy wrote:
[quote]
Why would Iranians care about me?
But ya go to the personal insults when you can not answer with reason as usual. Hopefully you get a better sleep tonight or at least a snickers.
Obviously, because Iranians are human beings, they're not going to appreciate being bombed by Israel and possibly the US, including a number of their relatives killed and the stability of their lives destroyed. So, if left to their own devices after this experience, they'll form governments that are hostile to Israel and the US. Israel and the US, being more intelligent than you and Mohdoo, understand that this is going to happen, so they won't let Iranians have agency in their future. They'll either have a fake democracy where every candidate has to publicly declare that Israel has a God given right to kill every Palestinian they want to, or they'll skip the democracy part and directly support some dictator who is pro US. All of this is extremely obvious. I think I read that book. I didn't want to, my history teacher made me. Wait until you get to the sequel where they provide the rest of the information and history. hearing all the sides is going to blow your mind! The point I'm making is I don't think the US and Israel are going to be able to help themselves when the crucial moment arrives. Getting rid of the current leaders in Iran is something I can go along with, if it can be done without wrecking the place ala Iraq. What happens then is something no Western country has ever managed to make a success of. I mean Iran has resources, right? Wouldn't it be so simple for the US to put someone in charge who was generous with their dealmaking when it comes to Iran's resources? Then you end up with the exact situation that started all of this in the first place. Iranians aren't stupid. If the US takes advantage (again) they will revolt (again) and get rid of the leader the US put in place (again) and we'll end up with religious extremists in charge (again). I hope you can see where I'm going with this, because I'm not being subtle about it. I certainly don't think Netenyahu and Donald fucking Trump are going to sit down and have a conversation about what would be best for the Iranian people, do you? Where did you get the impression that I thought that the US was great at nation building and this was going to be a great success? I'll be honest I've just been skimming and I sort of got that feeling. Sorry if I'm wrong. Could you explain very simply what you are thinking about the current operation in Iran, whether its necessary, and if you have any thoughts about what any follow up should be? You don't have to, but it would help me out because I can't be arsed to trawl through all the bad tempered personal battle stuff. I do not really have a firm position, in fact I find it odd that people do considering how many moving parts there are. I think it is a very interesting, albeit mostly depressing topic, so it is nice to hear other peoples views on it. Things I'm sure of is that Iran's government is full evil and so I shed no tears when members who have caused so much pain and suffering are dead.
I think Israel is not being "genocidal" when they attack Iran. Iran has been very open in both words and actions that their goal is complete genocide of Israel and Jews in general. I believe that this along with say the pager attack, and taking the uninhabited mountain in Syria to stop arms flow to Hezbollah are reasonable military actions of a country trying to protect their citizens. That does not make it altruistic or anything, it has all the terrible consequences that come with war. I do not believe Nebs theory that Israel is out to conquer the entire middle east and the "axis of resistance" is the only thing stopping them. My reasoning is their long history of trading land for peace. I have very little faith in Iran being rebuilt into some kind of liberal or socialist democracy. I don't believe that has been successfully accomplished since WW2 through war. I think a large percentage of the Iranian people will be hopeful for something better if their government falls, much like Syrians. That is a off the top of my head overview. Let me know if I got to what you were after. On June 19 2025 03:48 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 03:30 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:13 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 03:09 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 02:52 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 02:46 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 02:44 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
That is actually not the definition of object permanence, you are wrong. It is how it is related to this statement, since what someone is going do is not an object. When Iran is a "pile of rubble" as Mohdoo indicated, do you believe that Iranians will also lick the sole of your shoe or do you think they'll only kiss the top of the shoe Why would Iranians care about me? But ya go to the personal insults when you can not answer with reason as usual. Hopefully you get a better sleep tonight or at least a snickers. Obviously, because Iranians are human beings, they're not going to appreciate being bombed by Israel and possibly the US, including a number of their relatives killed and the stability of their lives destroyed. So, if left to their own devices after this experience, they'll form governments that are hostile to Israel and the US. Israel and the US, being more intelligent than you and Mohdoo, understand that this is going to happen, so they won't let Iranians have agency in their future. They'll either have a fake democracy where every candidate has to publicly declare that Israel has a God given right to kill every Palestinian they want to, or they'll skip the democracy part and directly support some dictator who is pro US. All of this is extremely obvious. You think the Iranians currently have agency? Are you aware that people don't like to be constantly repressed and having their human rights trampled on by there own government? Women strangely enough like to be treated like humans not property and LGBT people enjoy living. If Khamenei falls there will be plenty of Iranians celebrating. So just to be clear, you think Iranians will celebrate moving from no agency to no agency (+ a bunch of dead people) because they don't have agency right now? On June 19 2025 03:46 Legan wrote:
If bombing the regime away is successful, then in which other cases could this be implemented? Could it work on the Taliban? Maybe Eritrea? Even Hungary? Only nukes seem to protect countries from this. Saudi Arabia I think I suspect they will celebrate the fall of a regime that likely has killed and or tortured members of their families and repressed them all for 50 years. Hopefully they have some optimism with what comes next but I'm sure a heck of a lot more cynicism and fear. Maybe they along with Syria will look for a new path forward, maybe Turkey will be better than the west. I have no idea what will come next, and am baffled that you have such faith in your own predictions. That will change depending on how long the regime holds out and the war continues. "Things I'm sure of is that[...] is full evil and so I shed no tears when members who have caused so much pain and suffering are dead." - This is most dangerous world view one can have actually. Is it? What are the good things about the Islamic Revolutionary Guard? And the Islamic Republic of Iran?
You missing the point. Being "sure" that something/someone is "full evil" is the problem, because it justify any action taken.
Whats good about them? Some may be great parents? Loving sons? Loving husbands? Or maybe you happened to believe that Iranian citizens are uncapable of such things?
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On June 19 2025 05:21 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2025 04:30 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:46 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 19 2025 03:41 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:38 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 19 2025 03:32 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:15 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 19 2025 03:13 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 03:09 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 02:52 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
When Iran is a "pile of rubble" as Mohdoo indicated, do you believe that Iranians will also lick the sole of your shoe or do you think they'll only kiss the top of the shoe Why would Iranians care about me? But ya go to the personal insults when you can not answer with reason as usual. Hopefully you get a better sleep tonight or at least a snickers. Obviously, because Iranians are human beings, they're not going to appreciate being bombed by Israel and possibly the US, including a number of their relatives killed and the stability of their lives destroyed. So, if left to their own devices after this experience, they'll form governments that are hostile to Israel and the US. Israel and the US, being more intelligent than you and Mohdoo, understand that this is going to happen, so they won't let Iranians have agency in their future. They'll either have a fake democracy where every candidate has to publicly declare that Israel has a God given right to kill every Palestinian they want to, or they'll skip the democracy part and directly support some dictator who is pro US. All of this is extremely obvious. I think I read that book. I didn't want to, my history teacher made me. Wait until you get to the sequel where they provide the rest of the information and history. hearing all the sides is going to blow your mind! The point I'm making is I don't think the US and Israel are going to be able to help themselves when the crucial moment arrives. Getting rid of the current leaders in Iran is something I can go along with, if it can be done without wrecking the place ala Iraq. What happens then is something no Western country has ever managed to make a success of. I mean Iran has resources, right? Wouldn't it be so simple for the US to put someone in charge who was generous with their dealmaking when it comes to Iran's resources? Then you end up with the exact situation that started all of this in the first place. Iranians aren't stupid. If the US takes advantage (again) they will revolt (again) and get rid of the leader the US put in place (again) and we'll end up with religious extremists in charge (again). I hope you can see where I'm going with this, because I'm not being subtle about it. I certainly don't think Netenyahu and Donald fucking Trump are going to sit down and have a conversation about what would be best for the Iranian people, do you? Where did you get the impression that I thought that the US was great at nation building and this was going to be a great success? I'll be honest I've just been skimming and I sort of got that feeling. Sorry if I'm wrong. Could you explain very simply what you are thinking about the current operation in Iran, whether its necessary, and if you have any thoughts about what any follow up should be? You don't have to, but it would help me out because I can't be arsed to trawl through all the bad tempered personal battle stuff. I do not really have a firm position, in fact I find it odd that people do considering how many moving parts there are. I think it is a very interesting, albeit mostly depressing topic, so it is nice to hear other peoples views on it. Things I'm sure of is that Iran's government is full evil and so I shed no tears when members who have caused so much pain and suffering are dead. I think Israel is not being "genocidal" when they attack Iran. Iran has been very open in both words and actions that their goal is complete genocide of Israel and Jews in general. I believe that this along with say the pager attack, and taking the uninhabited mountain in Syria to stop arms flow to Hezbollah are reasonable military actions of a country trying to protect their citizens. That does not make it altruistic or anything, it has all the terrible consequences that come with war. I do not believe Nebs theory that Israel is out to conquer the entire middle east and the "axis of resistance" is the only thing stopping them. My reasoning is their long history of trading land for peace. I have very little faith in Iran being rebuilt into some kind of liberal or socialist democracy. I don't believe that has been successfully accomplished since WW2 through war. I think a large percentage of the Iranian people will be hopeful for something better if their government falls, much like Syrians. That is a off the top of my head overview. Let me know if I got to what you were after. The reason I asked you to post is this is that its alot easier to discuss it with you when I know where you stand on it. Bobbing and weaving is great in boxing but it can be frustrating in a conversation! Its pretty hard to disagree with any of that from where I am. I have zero faith in Israel and the US to actually improve things for Iran, but the people I know over there are extremely desperate for some kind of change and completely unable to affect that change themselves. An entrenched dictatorship that oppresses its people is a problem with almost no solution, unless some kind of power with good intentions comes along and I'm not sure I've seen that in my lifetime. The messages I'm getting from Iran are messages of hope, and I've replied that it might be best to temper expectations.
Yikes I hope they stay safe! Hope might go a long way right, even if it overly optimistic.
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On June 19 2025 08:24 Razyda wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2025 08:12 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 07:50 Razyda wrote:On June 19 2025 04:30 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:46 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 19 2025 03:41 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:38 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 19 2025 03:32 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:15 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 19 2025 03:13 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
Obviously, because Iranians are human beings, they're not going to appreciate being bombed by Israel and possibly the US, including a number of their relatives killed and the stability of their lives destroyed. So, if left to their own devices after this experience, they'll form governments that are hostile to Israel and the US. Israel and the US, being more intelligent than you and Mohdoo, understand that this is going to happen, so they won't let Iranians have agency in their future. They'll either have a fake democracy where every candidate has to publicly declare that Israel has a God given right to kill every Palestinian they want to, or they'll skip the democracy part and directly support some dictator who is pro US.
All of this is extremely obvious. I think I read that book. I didn't want to, my history teacher made me. Wait until you get to the sequel where they provide the rest of the information and history. hearing all the sides is going to blow your mind! The point I'm making is I don't think the US and Israel are going to be able to help themselves when the crucial moment arrives. Getting rid of the current leaders in Iran is something I can go along with, if it can be done without wrecking the place ala Iraq. What happens then is something no Western country has ever managed to make a success of. I mean Iran has resources, right? Wouldn't it be so simple for the US to put someone in charge who was generous with their dealmaking when it comes to Iran's resources? Then you end up with the exact situation that started all of this in the first place. Iranians aren't stupid. If the US takes advantage (again) they will revolt (again) and get rid of the leader the US put in place (again) and we'll end up with religious extremists in charge (again). I hope you can see where I'm going with this, because I'm not being subtle about it. I certainly don't think Netenyahu and Donald fucking Trump are going to sit down and have a conversation about what would be best for the Iranian people, do you? Where did you get the impression that I thought that the US was great at nation building and this was going to be a great success? I'll be honest I've just been skimming and I sort of got that feeling. Sorry if I'm wrong. Could you explain very simply what you are thinking about the current operation in Iran, whether its necessary, and if you have any thoughts about what any follow up should be? You don't have to, but it would help me out because I can't be arsed to trawl through all the bad tempered personal battle stuff. I do not really have a firm position, in fact I find it odd that people do considering how many moving parts there are. I think it is a very interesting, albeit mostly depressing topic, so it is nice to hear other peoples views on it. Things I'm sure of is that Iran's government is full evil and so I shed no tears when members who have caused so much pain and suffering are dead.
I think Israel is not being "genocidal" when they attack Iran. Iran has been very open in both words and actions that their goal is complete genocide of Israel and Jews in general. I believe that this along with say the pager attack, and taking the uninhabited mountain in Syria to stop arms flow to Hezbollah are reasonable military actions of a country trying to protect their citizens. That does not make it altruistic or anything, it has all the terrible consequences that come with war. I do not believe Nebs theory that Israel is out to conquer the entire middle east and the "axis of resistance" is the only thing stopping them. My reasoning is their long history of trading land for peace. I have very little faith in Iran being rebuilt into some kind of liberal or socialist democracy. I don't believe that has been successfully accomplished since WW2 through war. I think a large percentage of the Iranian people will be hopeful for something better if their government falls, much like Syrians. That is a off the top of my head overview. Let me know if I got to what you were after. On June 19 2025 03:48 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 03:30 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:13 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 03:09 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 02:52 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 02:46 Billyboy wrote:
[quote]
It is how it is related to this statement, since what someone is going do is not an object. When Iran is a "pile of rubble" as Mohdoo indicated, do you believe that Iranians will also lick the sole of your shoe or do you think they'll only kiss the top of the shoe Why would Iranians care about me? But ya go to the personal insults when you can not answer with reason as usual. Hopefully you get a better sleep tonight or at least a snickers. Obviously, because Iranians are human beings, they're not going to appreciate being bombed by Israel and possibly the US, including a number of their relatives killed and the stability of their lives destroyed. So, if left to their own devices after this experience, they'll form governments that are hostile to Israel and the US. Israel and the US, being more intelligent than you and Mohdoo, understand that this is going to happen, so they won't let Iranians have agency in their future. They'll either have a fake democracy where every candidate has to publicly declare that Israel has a God given right to kill every Palestinian they want to, or they'll skip the democracy part and directly support some dictator who is pro US. All of this is extremely obvious. You think the Iranians currently have agency? Are you aware that people don't like to be constantly repressed and having their human rights trampled on by there own government? Women strangely enough like to be treated like humans not property and LGBT people enjoy living. If Khamenei falls there will be plenty of Iranians celebrating. So just to be clear, you think Iranians will celebrate moving from no agency to no agency (+ a bunch of dead people) because they don't have agency right now? On June 19 2025 03:46 Legan wrote:
If bombing the regime away is successful, then in which other cases could this be implemented? Could it work on the Taliban? Maybe Eritrea? Even Hungary? Only nukes seem to protect countries from this. Saudi Arabia I think I suspect they will celebrate the fall of a regime that likely has killed and or tortured members of their families and repressed them all for 50 years. Hopefully they have some optimism with what comes next but I'm sure a heck of a lot more cynicism and fear. Maybe they along with Syria will look for a new path forward, maybe Turkey will be better than the west. I have no idea what will come next, and am baffled that you have such faith in your own predictions. That will change depending on how long the regime holds out and the war continues. "Things I'm sure of is that[...] is full evil and so I shed no tears when members who have caused so much pain and suffering are dead." - This is most dangerous world view one can have actually. Is it? What are the good things about the Islamic Revolutionary Guard? And the Islamic Republic of Iran? You missing the point. Being "sure" that something/someone is "full evil" is the problem, because it justify any action taken. Whats good about them? Some may be great parents? Loving sons? Loving husbands? Or maybe you happened to believe that Iranian citizens are uncapable of such things?
No I specifically said the government and you bolded it. WTF is wrong with you.
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On June 19 2025 08:26 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2025 08:24 Razyda wrote:On June 19 2025 08:12 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 07:50 Razyda wrote:On June 19 2025 04:30 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:46 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 19 2025 03:41 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:38 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 19 2025 03:32 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:15 Jockmcplop wrote:
[quote]
I think I read that book.
I didn't want to, my history teacher made me. Wait until you get to the sequel where they provide the rest of the information and history. hearing all the sides is going to blow your mind! The point I'm making is I don't think the US and Israel are going to be able to help themselves when the crucial moment arrives. Getting rid of the current leaders in Iran is something I can go along with, if it can be done without wrecking the place ala Iraq. What happens then is something no Western country has ever managed to make a success of. I mean Iran has resources, right? Wouldn't it be so simple for the US to put someone in charge who was generous with their dealmaking when it comes to Iran's resources? Then you end up with the exact situation that started all of this in the first place. Iranians aren't stupid. If the US takes advantage (again) they will revolt (again) and get rid of the leader the US put in place (again) and we'll end up with religious extremists in charge (again). I hope you can see where I'm going with this, because I'm not being subtle about it. I certainly don't think Netenyahu and Donald fucking Trump are going to sit down and have a conversation about what would be best for the Iranian people, do you? Where did you get the impression that I thought that the US was great at nation building and this was going to be a great success? I'll be honest I've just been skimming and I sort of got that feeling. Sorry if I'm wrong. Could you explain very simply what you are thinking about the current operation in Iran, whether its necessary, and if you have any thoughts about what any follow up should be? You don't have to, but it would help me out because I can't be arsed to trawl through all the bad tempered personal battle stuff. I do not really have a firm position, in fact I find it odd that people do considering how many moving parts there are. I think it is a very interesting, albeit mostly depressing topic, so it is nice to hear other peoples views on it. Things I'm sure of is that Iran's government is full evil and so I shed no tears when members who have caused so much pain and suffering are dead.
I think Israel is not being "genocidal" when they attack Iran. Iran has been very open in both words and actions that their goal is complete genocide of Israel and Jews in general. I believe that this along with say the pager attack, and taking the uninhabited mountain in Syria to stop arms flow to Hezbollah are reasonable military actions of a country trying to protect their citizens. That does not make it altruistic or anything, it has all the terrible consequences that come with war. I do not believe Nebs theory that Israel is out to conquer the entire middle east and the "axis of resistance" is the only thing stopping them. My reasoning is their long history of trading land for peace. I have very little faith in Iran being rebuilt into some kind of liberal or socialist democracy. I don't believe that has been successfully accomplished since WW2 through war. I think a large percentage of the Iranian people will be hopeful for something better if their government falls, much like Syrians. That is a off the top of my head overview. Let me know if I got to what you were after. On June 19 2025 03:48 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 03:30 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:13 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 03:09 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 02:52 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
When Iran is a "pile of rubble" as Mohdoo indicated, do you believe that Iranians will also lick the sole of your shoe or do you think they'll only kiss the top of the shoe Why would Iranians care about me? But ya go to the personal insults when you can not answer with reason as usual. Hopefully you get a better sleep tonight or at least a snickers. Obviously, because Iranians are human beings, they're not going to appreciate being bombed by Israel and possibly the US, including a number of their relatives killed and the stability of their lives destroyed. So, if left to their own devices after this experience, they'll form governments that are hostile to Israel and the US. Israel and the US, being more intelligent than you and Mohdoo, understand that this is going to happen, so they won't let Iranians have agency in their future. They'll either have a fake democracy where every candidate has to publicly declare that Israel has a God given right to kill every Palestinian they want to, or they'll skip the democracy part and directly support some dictator who is pro US. All of this is extremely obvious. You think the Iranians currently have agency? Are you aware that people don't like to be constantly repressed and having their human rights trampled on by there own government? Women strangely enough like to be treated like humans not property and LGBT people enjoy living. If Khamenei falls there will be plenty of Iranians celebrating. So just to be clear, you think Iranians will celebrate moving from no agency to no agency (+ a bunch of dead people) because they don't have agency right now? On June 19 2025 03:46 Legan wrote:
If bombing the regime away is successful, then in which other cases could this be implemented? Could it work on the Taliban? Maybe Eritrea? Even Hungary? Only nukes seem to protect countries from this. Saudi Arabia I think I suspect they will celebrate the fall of a regime that likely has killed and or tortured members of their families and repressed them all for 50 years. Hopefully they have some optimism with what comes next but I'm sure a heck of a lot more cynicism and fear. Maybe they along with Syria will look for a new path forward, maybe Turkey will be better than the west. I have no idea what will come next, and am baffled that you have such faith in your own predictions. That will change depending on how long the regime holds out and the war continues. "Things I'm sure of is that[...] is full evil and so I shed no tears when members who have caused so much pain and suffering are dead." - This is most dangerous world view one can have actually. Is it? What are the good things about the Islamic Revolutionary Guard? And the Islamic Republic of Iran? You missing the point. Being "sure" that something/someone is "full evil" is the problem, because it justify any action taken. Whats good about them? Some may be great parents? Loving sons? Loving husbands? Or maybe you happened to believe that Iranian citizens are uncapable of such things? No I specifically said the government and you bolded it. WTF is wrong with you.
I bolded it in the previous post... and thats because "being sure x is full evil" means you decided already and any action against x is justified , doesnt matter what x is.
In the post I replied to you specified " Islamic Revolutionary Guard? And the Islamic Republic of Iran?"
"WTF is wrong with you." - I thought that I am arguing with someone whose world view isnt limited to "I am good therefore everyone I deem evil must be evil" apologies, my mistake.
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On June 19 2025 04:18 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2025 01:40 RvB wrote:On June 19 2025 00:58 pmp10 wrote:
Look at Bibi - he just got more Israelis killed than Hamas holds hostages and is now politically stronger then ever. Bibi is not strong at all. He's been far behind the opposition in polls since October 7 except for a little bump after the escalation against Hezbollah. The failure of October 7 will haunt his legacy forever no matter what he does. He's out with the next elections. That's a brave prediction. He still has a year to defeat Iran and crush Hamas.
It's not a brave prediction. He's up 3 seats and his coalition is still far behind the opposition:
Netanyahu’s coalition bloc receives 50 seats, far short of a majority in the 120-seat Knesset. Opposition parties receive 60 seats, and the Arab-led parties have 10. Arab majority parties have traditionally shunned coalitions, though Islamist Ra’am broke that trend when it joined a Bennett-led coalition in 2021-2022.
www.timesofisrael.com
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United States44046 Posts
On June 19 2025 07:50 Razyda wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2025 04:30 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:46 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 19 2025 03:41 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:38 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 19 2025 03:32 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:15 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 19 2025 03:13 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 03:09 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 02:52 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
When Iran is a "pile of rubble" as Mohdoo indicated, do you believe that Iranians will also lick the sole of your shoe or do you think they'll only kiss the top of the shoe Why would Iranians care about me? But ya go to the personal insults when you can not answer with reason as usual. Hopefully you get a better sleep tonight or at least a snickers. Obviously, because Iranians are human beings, they're not going to appreciate being bombed by Israel and possibly the US, including a number of their relatives killed and the stability of their lives destroyed. So, if left to their own devices after this experience, they'll form governments that are hostile to Israel and the US. Israel and the US, being more intelligent than you and Mohdoo, understand that this is going to happen, so they won't let Iranians have agency in their future. They'll either have a fake democracy where every candidate has to publicly declare that Israel has a God given right to kill every Palestinian they want to, or they'll skip the democracy part and directly support some dictator who is pro US. All of this is extremely obvious. I think I read that book. I didn't want to, my history teacher made me. Wait until you get to the sequel where they provide the rest of the information and history. hearing all the sides is going to blow your mind! The point I'm making is I don't think the US and Israel are going to be able to help themselves when the crucial moment arrives. Getting rid of the current leaders in Iran is something I can go along with, if it can be done without wrecking the place ala Iraq. What happens then is something no Western country has ever managed to make a success of. I mean Iran has resources, right? Wouldn't it be so simple for the US to put someone in charge who was generous with their dealmaking when it comes to Iran's resources? Then you end up with the exact situation that started all of this in the first place. Iranians aren't stupid. If the US takes advantage (again) they will revolt (again) and get rid of the leader the US put in place (again) and we'll end up with religious extremists in charge (again). I hope you can see where I'm going with this, because I'm not being subtle about it. I certainly don't think Netenyahu and Donald fucking Trump are going to sit down and have a conversation about what would be best for the Iranian people, do you? Where did you get the impression that I thought that the US was great at nation building and this was going to be a great success? I'll be honest I've just been skimming and I sort of got that feeling. Sorry if I'm wrong. Could you explain very simply what you are thinking about the current operation in Iran, whether its necessary, and if you have any thoughts about what any follow up should be? You don't have to, but it would help me out because I can't be arsed to trawl through all the bad tempered personal battle stuff. I do not really have a firm position, in fact I find it odd that people do considering how many moving parts there are. I think it is a very interesting, albeit mostly depressing topic, so it is nice to hear other peoples views on it. Things I'm sure of is that Iran's government is full evil and so I shed no tears when members who have caused so much pain and suffering are dead.
I think Israel is not being "genocidal" when they attack Iran. Iran has been very open in both words and actions that their goal is complete genocide of Israel and Jews in general. I believe that this along with say the pager attack, and taking the uninhabited mountain in Syria to stop arms flow to Hezbollah are reasonable military actions of a country trying to protect their citizens. That does not make it altruistic or anything, it has all the terrible consequences that come with war. I do not believe Nebs theory that Israel is out to conquer the entire middle east and the "axis of resistance" is the only thing stopping them. My reasoning is their long history of trading land for peace. I have very little faith in Iran being rebuilt into some kind of liberal or socialist democracy. I don't believe that has been successfully accomplished since WW2 through war. I think a large percentage of the Iranian people will be hopeful for something better if their government falls, much like Syrians. That is a off the top of my head overview. Let me know if I got to what you were after. On June 19 2025 03:48 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 03:30 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:13 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 03:09 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 02:52 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 02:46 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 02:44 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 02:43 Billyboy wrote:
[quote]
What a fancy way of saying faith in their evil. That is actually not the definition of object permanence, you are wrong. It is how it is related to this statement, since what someone is going do is not an object. When Iran is a "pile of rubble" as Mohdoo indicated, do you believe that Iranians will also lick the sole of your shoe or do you think they'll only kiss the top of the shoe Why would Iranians care about me? But ya go to the personal insults when you can not answer with reason as usual. Hopefully you get a better sleep tonight or at least a snickers. Obviously, because Iranians are human beings, they're not going to appreciate being bombed by Israel and possibly the US, including a number of their relatives killed and the stability of their lives destroyed. So, if left to their own devices after this experience, they'll form governments that are hostile to Israel and the US. Israel and the US, being more intelligent than you and Mohdoo, understand that this is going to happen, so they won't let Iranians have agency in their future. They'll either have a fake democracy where every candidate has to publicly declare that Israel has a God given right to kill every Palestinian they want to, or they'll skip the democracy part and directly support some dictator who is pro US. All of this is extremely obvious. You think the Iranians currently have agency? Are you aware that people don't like to be constantly repressed and having their human rights trampled on by there own government? Women strangely enough like to be treated like humans not property and LGBT people enjoy living. If Khamenei falls there will be plenty of Iranians celebrating. So just to be clear, you think Iranians will celebrate moving from no agency to no agency (+ a bunch of dead people) because they don't have agency right now? On June 19 2025 03:46 Legan wrote:
If bombing the regime away is successful, then in which other cases could this be implemented? Could it work on the Taliban? Maybe Eritrea? Even Hungary? Only nukes seem to protect countries from this. Saudi Arabia I think I suspect they will celebrate the fall of a regime that likely has killed and or tortured members of their families and repressed them all for 50 years. Hopefully they have some optimism with what comes next but I'm sure a heck of a lot more cynicism and fear. Maybe they along with Syria will look for a new path forward, maybe Turkey will be better than the west. I have no idea what will come next, and am baffled that you have such faith in your own predictions. That will change depending on how long the regime holds out and the war continues. "Things I'm sure of is that[...] is full evil and so I shed no tears when members who have caused so much pain and suffering are dead." - This is most dangerous world view one can have actually.
Surely not the must dangerous.
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On June 19 2025 08:47 Razyda wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2025 08:26 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 08:24 Razyda wrote:On June 19 2025 08:12 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 07:50 Razyda wrote:On June 19 2025 04:30 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:46 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 19 2025 03:41 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:38 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 19 2025 03:32 Billyboy wrote:
[quote]
Wait until you get to the sequel where they provide the rest of the information and history. hearing all the sides is going to blow your mind! The point I'm making is I don't think the US and Israel are going to be able to help themselves when the crucial moment arrives. Getting rid of the current leaders in Iran is something I can go along with, if it can be done without wrecking the place ala Iraq. What happens then is something no Western country has ever managed to make a success of. I mean Iran has resources, right? Wouldn't it be so simple for the US to put someone in charge who was generous with their dealmaking when it comes to Iran's resources? Then you end up with the exact situation that started all of this in the first place. Iranians aren't stupid. If the US takes advantage (again) they will revolt (again) and get rid of the leader the US put in place (again) and we'll end up with religious extremists in charge (again). I hope you can see where I'm going with this, because I'm not being subtle about it. I certainly don't think Netenyahu and Donald fucking Trump are going to sit down and have a conversation about what would be best for the Iranian people, do you? Where did you get the impression that I thought that the US was great at nation building and this was going to be a great success? I'll be honest I've just been skimming and I sort of got that feeling. Sorry if I'm wrong. Could you explain very simply what you are thinking about the current operation in Iran, whether its necessary, and if you have any thoughts about what any follow up should be? You don't have to, but it would help me out because I can't be arsed to trawl through all the bad tempered personal battle stuff. I do not really have a firm position, in fact I find it odd that people do considering how many moving parts there are. I think it is a very interesting, albeit mostly depressing topic, so it is nice to hear other peoples views on it. Things I'm sure of is that Iran's government is full evil and so I shed no tears when members who have caused so much pain and suffering are dead.
I think Israel is not being "genocidal" when they attack Iran. Iran has been very open in both words and actions that their goal is complete genocide of Israel and Jews in general. I believe that this along with say the pager attack, and taking the uninhabited mountain in Syria to stop arms flow to Hezbollah are reasonable military actions of a country trying to protect their citizens. That does not make it altruistic or anything, it has all the terrible consequences that come with war. I do not believe Nebs theory that Israel is out to conquer the entire middle east and the "axis of resistance" is the only thing stopping them. My reasoning is their long history of trading land for peace. I have very little faith in Iran being rebuilt into some kind of liberal or socialist democracy. I don't believe that has been successfully accomplished since WW2 through war. I think a large percentage of the Iranian people will be hopeful for something better if their government falls, much like Syrians. That is a off the top of my head overview. Let me know if I got to what you were after. On June 19 2025 03:48 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 03:30 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:13 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 03:09 Billyboy wrote:
[quote]
Why would Iranians care about me?
But ya go to the personal insults when you can not answer with reason as usual. Hopefully you get a better sleep tonight or at least a snickers.
Obviously, because Iranians are human beings, they're not going to appreciate being bombed by Israel and possibly the US, including a number of their relatives killed and the stability of their lives destroyed. So, if left to their own devices after this experience, they'll form governments that are hostile to Israel and the US. Israel and the US, being more intelligent than you and Mohdoo, understand that this is going to happen, so they won't let Iranians have agency in their future. They'll either have a fake democracy where every candidate has to publicly declare that Israel has a God given right to kill every Palestinian they want to, or they'll skip the democracy part and directly support some dictator who is pro US. All of this is extremely obvious. You think the Iranians currently have agency? Are you aware that people don't like to be constantly repressed and having their human rights trampled on by there own government? Women strangely enough like to be treated like humans not property and LGBT people enjoy living. If Khamenei falls there will be plenty of Iranians celebrating. So just to be clear, you think Iranians will celebrate moving from no agency to no agency (+ a bunch of dead people) because they don't have agency right now? On June 19 2025 03:46 Legan wrote:
If bombing the regime away is successful, then in which other cases could this be implemented? Could it work on the Taliban? Maybe Eritrea? Even Hungary? Only nukes seem to protect countries from this. Saudi Arabia I think I suspect they will celebrate the fall of a regime that likely has killed and or tortured members of their families and repressed them all for 50 years. Hopefully they have some optimism with what comes next but I'm sure a heck of a lot more cynicism and fear. Maybe they along with Syria will look for a new path forward, maybe Turkey will be better than the west. I have no idea what will come next, and am baffled that you have such faith in your own predictions. That will change depending on how long the regime holds out and the war continues. "Things I'm sure of is that[...] is full evil and so I shed no tears when members who have caused so much pain and suffering are dead." - This is most dangerous world view one can have actually. Is it? What are the good things about the Islamic Revolutionary Guard? And the Islamic Republic of Iran? You missing the point. Being "sure" that something/someone is "full evil" is the problem, because it justify any action taken. Whats good about them? Some may be great parents? Loving sons? Loving husbands? Or maybe you happened to believe that Iranian citizens are uncapable of such things? No I specifically said the government and you bolded it. WTF is wrong with you. I bolded it in the previous post... and thats because "being sure x is full evil" means you decided already and any action against x is justified , doesnt matter what x is. In the post I replied to you specified " Islamic Revolutionary Guard? And the Islamic Republic of Iran?" "WTF is wrong with you." - I thought that I am arguing with someone whose world view isnt limited to "I am good therefore everyone I deem evil must be evil" apologies, my mistake.
Your responses perfectly encapsulate everything that's currently wrong with the forum. You misinterpret Billy and paint him as a lunatic, then double down on it, then triple down on it, regardless of how clearly he makes it that you're misinterpreting him.
You misinterpreted him. He's not the one being unreasonable, it's you.
And me saying that should carry a lof ot weight, because Billy and I have quite a lot of antagonistic history. I don't have reason to defend him unless I'm convinced he's right.
Stop with the needlessly antagonistic discourse. You are ruining the forum culture.
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On June 19 2025 15:39 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2025 07:50 Razyda wrote:On June 19 2025 04:30 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:46 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 19 2025 03:41 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:38 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 19 2025 03:32 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:15 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 19 2025 03:13 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 03:09 Billyboy wrote:
[quote]
Why would Iranians care about me?
But ya go to the personal insults when you can not answer with reason as usual. Hopefully you get a better sleep tonight or at least a snickers.
Obviously, because Iranians are human beings, they're not going to appreciate being bombed by Israel and possibly the US, including a number of their relatives killed and the stability of their lives destroyed. So, if left to their own devices after this experience, they'll form governments that are hostile to Israel and the US. Israel and the US, being more intelligent than you and Mohdoo, understand that this is going to happen, so they won't let Iranians have agency in their future. They'll either have a fake democracy where every candidate has to publicly declare that Israel has a God given right to kill every Palestinian they want to, or they'll skip the democracy part and directly support some dictator who is pro US. All of this is extremely obvious. I think I read that book. I didn't want to, my history teacher made me. Wait until you get to the sequel where they provide the rest of the information and history. hearing all the sides is going to blow your mind! The point I'm making is I don't think the US and Israel are going to be able to help themselves when the crucial moment arrives. Getting rid of the current leaders in Iran is something I can go along with, if it can be done without wrecking the place ala Iraq. What happens then is something no Western country has ever managed to make a success of. I mean Iran has resources, right? Wouldn't it be so simple for the US to put someone in charge who was generous with their dealmaking when it comes to Iran's resources? Then you end up with the exact situation that started all of this in the first place. Iranians aren't stupid. If the US takes advantage (again) they will revolt (again) and get rid of the leader the US put in place (again) and we'll end up with religious extremists in charge (again). I hope you can see where I'm going with this, because I'm not being subtle about it. I certainly don't think Netenyahu and Donald fucking Trump are going to sit down and have a conversation about what would be best for the Iranian people, do you? Where did you get the impression that I thought that the US was great at nation building and this was going to be a great success? I'll be honest I've just been skimming and I sort of got that feeling. Sorry if I'm wrong. Could you explain very simply what you are thinking about the current operation in Iran, whether its necessary, and if you have any thoughts about what any follow up should be? You don't have to, but it would help me out because I can't be arsed to trawl through all the bad tempered personal battle stuff. I do not really have a firm position, in fact I find it odd that people do considering how many moving parts there are. I think it is a very interesting, albeit mostly depressing topic, so it is nice to hear other peoples views on it. Things I'm sure of is that Iran's government is full evil and so I shed no tears when members who have caused so much pain and suffering are dead.
I think Israel is not being "genocidal" when they attack Iran. Iran has been very open in both words and actions that their goal is complete genocide of Israel and Jews in general. I believe that this along with say the pager attack, and taking the uninhabited mountain in Syria to stop arms flow to Hezbollah are reasonable military actions of a country trying to protect their citizens. That does not make it altruistic or anything, it has all the terrible consequences that come with war. I do not believe Nebs theory that Israel is out to conquer the entire middle east and the "axis of resistance" is the only thing stopping them. My reasoning is their long history of trading land for peace. I have very little faith in Iran being rebuilt into some kind of liberal or socialist democracy. I don't believe that has been successfully accomplished since WW2 through war. I think a large percentage of the Iranian people will be hopeful for something better if their government falls, much like Syrians. That is a off the top of my head overview. Let me know if I got to what you were after. On June 19 2025 03:48 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 03:30 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:13 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 03:09 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 02:52 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 02:46 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 02:44 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
That is actually not the definition of object permanence, you are wrong. It is how it is related to this statement, since what someone is going do is not an object. When Iran is a "pile of rubble" as Mohdoo indicated, do you believe that Iranians will also lick the sole of your shoe or do you think they'll only kiss the top of the shoe Why would Iranians care about me? But ya go to the personal insults when you can not answer with reason as usual. Hopefully you get a better sleep tonight or at least a snickers. Obviously, because Iranians are human beings, they're not going to appreciate being bombed by Israel and possibly the US, including a number of their relatives killed and the stability of their lives destroyed. So, if left to their own devices after this experience, they'll form governments that are hostile to Israel and the US. Israel and the US, being more intelligent than you and Mohdoo, understand that this is going to happen, so they won't let Iranians have agency in their future. They'll either have a fake democracy where every candidate has to publicly declare that Israel has a God given right to kill every Palestinian they want to, or they'll skip the democracy part and directly support some dictator who is pro US. All of this is extremely obvious. You think the Iranians currently have agency? Are you aware that people don't like to be constantly repressed and having their human rights trampled on by there own government? Women strangely enough like to be treated like humans not property and LGBT people enjoy living. If Khamenei falls there will be plenty of Iranians celebrating. So just to be clear, you think Iranians will celebrate moving from no agency to no agency (+ a bunch of dead people) because they don't have agency right now? On June 19 2025 03:46 Legan wrote:
If bombing the regime away is successful, then in which other cases could this be implemented? Could it work on the Taliban? Maybe Eritrea? Even Hungary? Only nukes seem to protect countries from this. Saudi Arabia I think I suspect they will celebrate the fall of a regime that likely has killed and or tortured members of their families and repressed them all for 50 years. Hopefully they have some optimism with what comes next but I'm sure a heck of a lot more cynicism and fear. Maybe they along with Syria will look for a new path forward, maybe Turkey will be better than the west. I have no idea what will come next, and am baffled that you have such faith in your own predictions. That will change depending on how long the regime holds out and the war continues. "Things I'm sure of is that[...] is full evil and so I shed no tears when members who have caused so much pain and suffering are dead." - This is most dangerous world view one can have actually. Surely not the must dangerous.
I think it is actually. It is very foundation of all the radicals, that they fighting evil. I would imagine it would be somewhat hard to go " they are quite okay, lets go kill them" and convince a lot of people. Narrative "this guys are pure evil" would be much more successful. Once you believe someone is full evil, then nothing makes one goodder than a little slaughter, look jihadis, nazi, inquisition.
On June 19 2025 15:51 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2025 08:47 Razyda wrote:On June 19 2025 08:26 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 08:24 Razyda wrote:On June 19 2025 08:12 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 07:50 Razyda wrote:On June 19 2025 04:30 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:46 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 19 2025 03:41 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:38 Jockmcplop wrote:
[quote]
The point I'm making is I don't think the US and Israel are going to be able to help themselves when the crucial moment arrives.
Getting rid of the current leaders in Iran is something I can go along with, if it can be done without wrecking the place ala Iraq.
What happens then is something no Western country has ever managed to make a success of.
I mean Iran has resources, right? Wouldn't it be so simple for the US to put someone in charge who was generous with their dealmaking when it comes to Iran's resources?
Then you end up with the exact situation that started all of this in the first place. Iranians aren't stupid. If the US takes advantage (again) they will revolt (again) and get rid of the leader the US put in place (again) and we'll end up with religious extremists in charge (again).
I hope you can see where I'm going with this, because I'm not being subtle about it.
I certainly don't think Netenyahu and Donald fucking Trump are going to sit down and have a conversation about what would be best for the Iranian people, do you? Where did you get the impression that I thought that the US was great at nation building and this was going to be a great success? I'll be honest I've just been skimming and I sort of got that feeling. Sorry if I'm wrong. Could you explain very simply what you are thinking about the current operation in Iran, whether its necessary, and if you have any thoughts about what any follow up should be? You don't have to, but it would help me out because I can't be arsed to trawl through all the bad tempered personal battle stuff. I do not really have a firm position, in fact I find it odd that people do considering how many moving parts there are. I think it is a very interesting, albeit mostly depressing topic, so it is nice to hear other peoples views on it. Things I'm sure of is that Iran's government is full evil and so I shed no tears when members who have caused so much pain and suffering are dead.
I think Israel is not being "genocidal" when they attack Iran. Iran has been very open in both words and actions that their goal is complete genocide of Israel and Jews in general. I believe that this along with say the pager attack, and taking the uninhabited mountain in Syria to stop arms flow to Hezbollah are reasonable military actions of a country trying to protect their citizens. That does not make it altruistic or anything, it has all the terrible consequences that come with war. I do not believe Nebs theory that Israel is out to conquer the entire middle east and the "axis of resistance" is the only thing stopping them. My reasoning is their long history of trading land for peace. I have very little faith in Iran being rebuilt into some kind of liberal or socialist democracy. I don't believe that has been successfully accomplished since WW2 through war. I think a large percentage of the Iranian people will be hopeful for something better if their government falls, much like Syrians. That is a off the top of my head overview. Let me know if I got to what you were after. On June 19 2025 03:48 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 03:30 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:13 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
Obviously, because Iranians are human beings, they're not going to appreciate being bombed by Israel and possibly the US, including a number of their relatives killed and the stability of their lives destroyed. So, if left to their own devices after this experience, they'll form governments that are hostile to Israel and the US. Israel and the US, being more intelligent than you and Mohdoo, understand that this is going to happen, so they won't let Iranians have agency in their future. They'll either have a fake democracy where every candidate has to publicly declare that Israel has a God given right to kill every Palestinian they want to, or they'll skip the democracy part and directly support some dictator who is pro US.
All of this is extremely obvious. You think the Iranians currently have agency? Are you aware that people don't like to be constantly repressed and having their human rights trampled on by there own government? Women strangely enough like to be treated like humans not property and LGBT people enjoy living. If Khamenei falls there will be plenty of Iranians celebrating. So just to be clear, you think Iranians will celebrate moving from no agency to no agency (+ a bunch of dead people) because they don't have agency right now? On June 19 2025 03:46 Legan wrote:
If bombing the regime away is successful, then in which other cases could this be implemented? Could it work on the Taliban? Maybe Eritrea? Even Hungary? Only nukes seem to protect countries from this. Saudi Arabia I think I suspect they will celebrate the fall of a regime that likely has killed and or tortured members of their families and repressed them all for 50 years. Hopefully they have some optimism with what comes next but I'm sure a heck of a lot more cynicism and fear. Maybe they along with Syria will look for a new path forward, maybe Turkey will be better than the west. I have no idea what will come next, and am baffled that you have such faith in your own predictions. That will change depending on how long the regime holds out and the war continues. "Things I'm sure of is that[...] is full evil and so I shed no tears when members who have caused so much pain and suffering are dead." - This is most dangerous world view one can have actually. Is it? What are the good things about the Islamic Revolutionary Guard? And the Islamic Republic of Iran? You missing the point. Being "sure" that something/someone is "full evil" is the problem, because it justify any action taken. Whats good about them? Some may be great parents? Loving sons? Loving husbands? Or maybe you happened to believe that Iranian citizens are uncapable of such things? No I specifically said the government and you bolded it. WTF is wrong with you. I bolded it in the previous post... and thats because "being sure x is full evil" means you decided already and any action against x is justified , doesnt matter what x is. In the post I replied to you specified " Islamic Revolutionary Guard? And the Islamic Republic of Iran?" "WTF is wrong with you." - I thought that I am arguing with someone whose world view isnt limited to "I am good therefore everyone I deem evil must be evil" apologies, my mistake. Your responses perfectly encapsulate everything that's currently wrong with the forum. You misinterpret Billy and paint him as a lunatic, then double down on it, then triple down on it, regardless of how clearly he makes it that you're misinterpreting him. You misinterpreted him. He's not the one being unreasonable, it's you. And me saying that should carry a lof ot weight, because Billy and I have quite a lot of antagonistic history. I don't have reason to defend him unless I'm convinced he's right. Stop with the needlessly antagonistic discourse. You are ruining the forum culture.
You may wanna reread those posts. I quoted him, there is no room for misrepresentation. And I didnt paint him as a lunatic, thats the impression you yourself got.
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On June 19 2025 21:13 Razyda wrote:
I think it is actually. It is very foundation of all the radicals, that they fighting evil. I would imagine it would be somewhat hard to go " they are quite okay, lets go kill them" and convince a lot of people. Narrative "this guys are pure evil" would be much more successful. Once you believe someone is full evil, then nothing makes one goodder than a little slaughter, look jihadis, nazi, inquisition.
To be a radical you just need to believe that a lot needs to change from how society currently is. You absolutely do not need to believe that you're fighting evil. Sometimes even the opposite is true, something that currently exists exists because people think they're fighting evil through it, and radicals react against that.
Jimmi is not radical at all. Almost certainly less than you, definitely less than me.
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On June 19 2025 21:13 Razyda wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2025 15:39 KwarK wrote:On June 19 2025 07:50 Razyda wrote:On June 19 2025 04:30 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:46 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 19 2025 03:41 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:38 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 19 2025 03:32 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:15 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 19 2025 03:13 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
Obviously, because Iranians are human beings, they're not going to appreciate being bombed by Israel and possibly the US, including a number of their relatives killed and the stability of their lives destroyed. So, if left to their own devices after this experience, they'll form governments that are hostile to Israel and the US. Israel and the US, being more intelligent than you and Mohdoo, understand that this is going to happen, so they won't let Iranians have agency in their future. They'll either have a fake democracy where every candidate has to publicly declare that Israel has a God given right to kill every Palestinian they want to, or they'll skip the democracy part and directly support some dictator who is pro US.
All of this is extremely obvious. I think I read that book. I didn't want to, my history teacher made me. Wait until you get to the sequel where they provide the rest of the information and history. hearing all the sides is going to blow your mind! The point I'm making is I don't think the US and Israel are going to be able to help themselves when the crucial moment arrives. Getting rid of the current leaders in Iran is something I can go along with, if it can be done without wrecking the place ala Iraq. What happens then is something no Western country has ever managed to make a success of. I mean Iran has resources, right? Wouldn't it be so simple for the US to put someone in charge who was generous with their dealmaking when it comes to Iran's resources? Then you end up with the exact situation that started all of this in the first place. Iranians aren't stupid. If the US takes advantage (again) they will revolt (again) and get rid of the leader the US put in place (again) and we'll end up with religious extremists in charge (again). I hope you can see where I'm going with this, because I'm not being subtle about it. I certainly don't think Netenyahu and Donald fucking Trump are going to sit down and have a conversation about what would be best for the Iranian people, do you? Where did you get the impression that I thought that the US was great at nation building and this was going to be a great success? I'll be honest I've just been skimming and I sort of got that feeling. Sorry if I'm wrong. Could you explain very simply what you are thinking about the current operation in Iran, whether its necessary, and if you have any thoughts about what any follow up should be? You don't have to, but it would help me out because I can't be arsed to trawl through all the bad tempered personal battle stuff. I do not really have a firm position, in fact I find it odd that people do considering how many moving parts there are. I think it is a very interesting, albeit mostly depressing topic, so it is nice to hear other peoples views on it. Things I'm sure of is that Iran's government is full evil and so I shed no tears when members who have caused so much pain and suffering are dead.
I think Israel is not being "genocidal" when they attack Iran. Iran has been very open in both words and actions that their goal is complete genocide of Israel and Jews in general. I believe that this along with say the pager attack, and taking the uninhabited mountain in Syria to stop arms flow to Hezbollah are reasonable military actions of a country trying to protect their citizens. That does not make it altruistic or anything, it has all the terrible consequences that come with war. I do not believe Nebs theory that Israel is out to conquer the entire middle east and the "axis of resistance" is the only thing stopping them. My reasoning is their long history of trading land for peace. I have very little faith in Iran being rebuilt into some kind of liberal or socialist democracy. I don't believe that has been successfully accomplished since WW2 through war. I think a large percentage of the Iranian people will be hopeful for something better if their government falls, much like Syrians. That is a off the top of my head overview. Let me know if I got to what you were after. On June 19 2025 03:48 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 03:30 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:13 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 03:09 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 02:52 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 02:46 Billyboy wrote:
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It is how it is related to this statement, since what someone is going do is not an object. When Iran is a "pile of rubble" as Mohdoo indicated, do you believe that Iranians will also lick the sole of your shoe or do you think they'll only kiss the top of the shoe Why would Iranians care about me? But ya go to the personal insults when you can not answer with reason as usual. Hopefully you get a better sleep tonight or at least a snickers. Obviously, because Iranians are human beings, they're not going to appreciate being bombed by Israel and possibly the US, including a number of their relatives killed and the stability of their lives destroyed. So, if left to their own devices after this experience, they'll form governments that are hostile to Israel and the US. Israel and the US, being more intelligent than you and Mohdoo, understand that this is going to happen, so they won't let Iranians have agency in their future. They'll either have a fake democracy where every candidate has to publicly declare that Israel has a God given right to kill every Palestinian they want to, or they'll skip the democracy part and directly support some dictator who is pro US. All of this is extremely obvious. You think the Iranians currently have agency? Are you aware that people don't like to be constantly repressed and having their human rights trampled on by there own government? Women strangely enough like to be treated like humans not property and LGBT people enjoy living. If Khamenei falls there will be plenty of Iranians celebrating. So just to be clear, you think Iranians will celebrate moving from no agency to no agency (+ a bunch of dead people) because they don't have agency right now? On June 19 2025 03:46 Legan wrote:
If bombing the regime away is successful, then in which other cases could this be implemented? Could it work on the Taliban? Maybe Eritrea? Even Hungary? Only nukes seem to protect countries from this. Saudi Arabia I think I suspect they will celebrate the fall of a regime that likely has killed and or tortured members of their families and repressed them all for 50 years. Hopefully they have some optimism with what comes next but I'm sure a heck of a lot more cynicism and fear. Maybe they along with Syria will look for a new path forward, maybe Turkey will be better than the west. I have no idea what will come next, and am baffled that you have such faith in your own predictions. That will change depending on how long the regime holds out and the war continues. "Things I'm sure of is that[...] is full evil and so I shed no tears when members who have caused so much pain and suffering are dead." - This is most dangerous world view one can have actually. Surely not the must dangerous. I think it is actually. It is very foundation of all the radicals, that they fighting evil. I would imagine it would be somewhat hard to go " they are quite okay, lets go kill them" and convince a lot of people. Narrative "this guys are pure evil" would be much more successful. Once you believe someone is full evil, then nothing makes one goodder than a little slaughter, look jihadis, nazi, inquisition. Show nested quote +On June 19 2025 15:51 Magic Powers wrote:On June 19 2025 08:47 Razyda wrote:On June 19 2025 08:26 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 08:24 Razyda wrote:On June 19 2025 08:12 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 07:50 Razyda wrote:On June 19 2025 04:30 Billyboy wrote:On June 19 2025 03:46 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 19 2025 03:41 Billyboy wrote:
[quote]
Where did you get the impression that I thought that the US was great at nation building and this was going to be a great success? I'll be honest I've just been skimming and I sort of got that feeling. Sorry if I'm wrong. Could you explain very simply what you are thinking about the current operation in Iran, whether its necessary, and if you have any thoughts about what any follow up should be? You don't have to, but it would help me out because I can't be arsed to trawl through all the bad tempered personal battle stuff. I do not really have a firm position, in fact I find it odd that people do considering how many moving parts there are. I think it is a very interesting, albeit mostly depressing topic, so it is nice to hear other peoples views on it. Things I'm sure of is that Iran's government is full evil and so I shed no tears when members who have caused so much pain and suffering are dead.
I think Israel is not being "genocidal" when they attack Iran. Iran has been very open in both words and actions that their goal is complete genocide of Israel and Jews in general. I believe that this along with say the pager attack, and taking the uninhabited mountain in Syria to stop arms flow to Hezbollah are reasonable military actions of a country trying to protect their citizens. That does not make it altruistic or anything, it has all the terrible consequences that come with war. I do not believe Nebs theory that Israel is out to conquer the entire middle east and the "axis of resistance" is the only thing stopping them. My reasoning is their long history of trading land for peace. I have very little faith in Iran being rebuilt into some kind of liberal or socialist democracy. I don't believe that has been successfully accomplished since WW2 through war. I think a large percentage of the Iranian people will be hopeful for something better if their government falls, much like Syrians. That is a off the top of my head overview. Let me know if I got to what you were after. On June 19 2025 03:48 Nebuchad wrote:On June 19 2025 03:30 Billyboy wrote:
[quote]
You think the Iranians currently have agency? Are you aware that people don't like to be constantly repressed and having their human rights trampled on by there own government? Women strangely enough like to be treated like humans not property and LGBT people enjoy living.
If Khamenei falls there will be plenty of Iranians celebrating.
So just to be clear, you think Iranians will celebrate moving from no agency to no agency (+ a bunch of dead people) because they don't have agency right now? On June 19 2025 03:46 Legan wrote:
If bombing the regime away is successful, then in which other cases could this be implemented? Could it work on the Taliban? Maybe Eritrea? Even Hungary? Only nukes seem to protect countries from this. Saudi Arabia I think I suspect they will celebrate the fall of a regime that likely has killed and or tortured members of their families and repressed them all for 50 years. Hopefully they have some optimism with what comes next but I'm sure a heck of a lot more cynicism and fear. Maybe they along with Syria will look for a new path forward, maybe Turkey will be better than the west. I have no idea what will come next, and am baffled that you have such faith in your own predictions. That will change depending on how long the regime holds out and the war continues. "Things I'm sure of is that[...] is full evil and so I shed no tears when members who have caused so much pain and suffering are dead." - This is most dangerous world view one can have actually. Is it? What are the good things about the Islamic Revolutionary Guard? And the Islamic Republic of Iran? You missing the point. Being "sure" that something/someone is "full evil" is the problem, because it justify any action taken. Whats good about them? Some may be great parents? Loving sons? Loving husbands? Or maybe you happened to believe that Iranian citizens are uncapable of such things? No I specifically said the government and you bolded it. WTF is wrong with you. I bolded it in the previous post... and thats because "being sure x is full evil" means you decided already and any action against x is justified , doesnt matter what x is. In the post I replied to you specified " Islamic Revolutionary Guard? And the Islamic Republic of Iran?" "WTF is wrong with you." - I thought that I am arguing with someone whose world view isnt limited to "I am good therefore everyone I deem evil must be evil" apologies, my mistake. Your responses perfectly encapsulate everything that's currently wrong with the forum. You misinterpret Billy and paint him as a lunatic, then double down on it, then triple down on it, regardless of how clearly he makes it that you're misinterpreting him. You misinterpreted him. He's not the one being unreasonable, it's you. And me saying that should carry a lof ot weight, because Billy and I have quite a lot of antagonistic history. I don't have reason to defend him unless I'm convinced he's right. Stop with the needlessly antagonistic discourse. You are ruining the forum culture. You may wanna reread those posts. I quoted him, there is no room for misrepresentation. And I didnt paint him as a lunatic, thats the impression you yourself got.
I'm sure as usual you are right and everyone else is wrong, why start self reflection now?
Appreciate the effort rest if you.
Iran hit a hospital last night and said Iran crossed a red line and will do more, not sure if that is just bluster. Iran has said that a few times and then just done the same things. Iran has however basically shut down internet to the country, they went from 78% to 3%. Which I guess makes sense why they are making these announcements of how awesome they are doing, the people can't get any information but what they are sending out.
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EPT
