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On June 21 2025 19:21 PremoBeats wrote:
I simply agreed with some of your takes, not all of them.
Further, I call for justice in case of war crimes or crimes in general committed by Israeli officials or soldiers.
I say that Israel has crossed lines but the underlying intent and context are important. Thus I don't see how I give Israel a carde blanche.
And I say that religious fundamentalism or the denial of Israel's existence - to me at least - is not plausible context or a good excuse. Being denied the right to exist or being the target of clear genocidal atrocities should not warrant a carde blanche... but it is context which can explain excessive force - and should still be punished - wouldn't you agree?
How can you say the underlying intent is important but also say that we should disregard what Ministers say about their intent because it leads to 'moral stalemate' (it doesn't)?
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How much do you know about what do Iranians or Shia Muslims actually believe?
It's fascinating that the whole text of yours had time to express empathy and sympathy for Israeli citizens for "being abandoned by West" but don't think that Palestinians were?
I mean, my dude, these Palestinians are being blown up by weapons and components of weapons coming from the West, UK and half of EU is selling arms to Israel, US is giving them their most destructive weapons, but you reserve your sympathies for the Israeli who were "abandoned".
Israel had elections in 2021, they choose this.
Gaza had elections in 2006, most of the people being blown up weren't even alive back then, and I can guarantee you that the occasional protest and waving of Palestinian flags does jack shit for them, they have no food, no water and are being bombed and shoot at on daily basis.
Up until Israel decided to attack Iran Israeli were living pretty chill lives since October, no rockets from Gaza, no fire from Lebanon or Syria, but they are the ones who deserve sympathy for being "abandoned". Jesus christ.
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On June 21 2025 20:32 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2025 19:21 PremoBeats wrote:
I simply agreed with some of your takes, not all of them.
Further, I call for justice in case of war crimes or crimes in general committed by Israeli officials or soldiers.
I say that Israel has crossed lines but the underlying intent and context are important. Thus I don't see how I give Israel a carde blanche.
And I say that religious fundamentalism or the denial of Israel's existence - to me at least - is not plausible context or a good excuse. Being denied the right to exist or being the target of clear genocidal atrocities should not warrant a carde blanche... but it is context which can explain excessive force - and should still be punished - wouldn't you agree? How can you say the underlying intent is important but also say that we should disregard what Ministers say about their intent because it leads to 'moral stalemate' (it doesn't)?
Cross out moral. What I meant was that we could repeat the same old stories according to these notions. At this point most of us know what the other will reply (if not for the open questions that don't get addressed).
Because of that, I'd still like to go back to your claims about genocide. So far you didn't address the factuals to contest that accusation.
Intent is the defining criteria for genocide. Having some ministers make atrocious or genocidal statements, does not necessarily lead to the whole government or military having ordered a genocide. For that matter: even these ministers could have only talked about it, without giving actual orders to follow through.
On June 21 2025 21:21 Jankisa wrote:
How much do you know about what do Iranians or Shia Muslims actually believe?
It's fascinating that the whole text of yours had time to express empathy and sympathy for Israeli citizens for "being abandoned by West" but don't think that Palestinians were?
I mean, my dude, these Palestinians are being blown up by weapons and components of weapons coming from the West, UK and half of EU is selling arms to Israel, US is giving them their most destructive weapons, but you reserve your sympathies for the Israeli who were "abandoned".
Israel had elections in 2021, they choose this.
Gaza had elections in 2006, most of the people being blown up weren't even alive back then, and I can guarantee you that the occasional protest and waving of Palestinian flags does jack shit for them, they have no food, no water and are being bombed and shoot at on daily basis.
Up until Israel decided to attack Iran Israeli were living pretty chill lives since October, no rockets from Gaza, no fire from Lebanon or Syria, but they are the ones who deserve sympathy for being "abandoned". Jesus christ.
Isn't the exactly next sentence that I also express real sympathy for Palestinians? Selective reading does not help here.
So Israel chose via elections in 2021 that Hamas will commit a genocidal attack in 2023 or that Iran is ingoring nuclear protocols? Or what exactly do you mean by that?
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For the most part we agree on stuff here, the people with really different opinions like billies friend have left. So in order to facilitate discussion we look for what separates our points. And for you premo, how I read your posts, it's always why the criticism of Israel does not apply because grey areas. These gray areas are rarely mentioned when the other factions of the conflict are mentioned. Which makes your posts seem one-sided pro Israel. Might be you don't even feel that way yourself, we and our posts are fallible, we omit stuff just by forgetting, this is a gaming forum, real opinions if this conflict should always be several pages long and carefully constructed to not forget to post all context of our opinion. So that's just what I received from your posts on the subject. Lookily for you, that's just what I make out if your posts and my opinion is just one of billions, others might perceive you differently or simply agree with that sentiment. Shrug emoji.
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On June 21 2025 22:00 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2025 20:32 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 21 2025 19:21 PremoBeats wrote:
I simply agreed with some of your takes, not all of them.
Further, I call for justice in case of war crimes or crimes in general committed by Israeli officials or soldiers.
I say that Israel has crossed lines but the underlying intent and context are important. Thus I don't see how I give Israel a carde blanche.
And I say that religious fundamentalism or the denial of Israel's existence - to me at least - is not plausible context or a good excuse. Being denied the right to exist or being the target of clear genocidal atrocities should not warrant a carde blanche... but it is context which can explain excessive force - and should still be punished - wouldn't you agree? How can you say the underlying intent is important but also say that we should disregard what Ministers say about their intent because it leads to 'moral stalemate' (it doesn't)? Cross out moral. What I meant was that we could repeat the same old stories according to these notions. At this point most of us know what the other will reply (if not for the open questions that don't get addressed). Because of that, I'd still like to go back to your claims about genocide. So far you didn't address the factuals to contest that accusation. Intent is the defining criteria for genocide. Having some ministers make atrocious or genocidal statements, does not necessarily lead to the whole government or military having ordered a genocide. For that matter: even these ministers could have only talked about it, without giving actual orders to follow through. Show nested quote +On June 21 2025 21:21 Jankisa wrote:
How much do you know about what do Iranians or Shia Muslims actually believe?
It's fascinating that the whole text of yours had time to express empathy and sympathy for Israeli citizens for "being abandoned by West" but don't think that Palestinians were?
I mean, my dude, these Palestinians are being blown up by weapons and components of weapons coming from the West, UK and half of EU is selling arms to Israel, US is giving them their most destructive weapons, but you reserve your sympathies for the Israeli who were "abandoned".
Israel had elections in 2021, they choose this.
Gaza had elections in 2006, most of the people being blown up weren't even alive back then, and I can guarantee you that the occasional protest and waving of Palestinian flags does jack shit for them, they have no food, no water and are being bombed and shoot at on daily basis.
Up until Israel decided to attack Iran Israeli were living pretty chill lives since October, no rockets from Gaza, no fire from Lebanon or Syria, but they are the ones who deserve sympathy for being "abandoned". Jesus christ. Isn't the exactly next sentence that I also express real sympathy for Palestinians? Selective reading does not help here. So Israel chose via elections in 2021 that Hamas will commit a genocidal attack in 2023 or that Iran is ingoring nuclear protocols? Or what exactly do you mean by that? Israel denied food from entering Gaza for an extended period of time, only relenting in the face of mounting international pressure.
That's a war crime and covered by genocide.
There is no 'we don't know their intentions'. We have both their word and their actions constitute genocide.
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On June 21 2025 22:02 Broetchenholer wrote:
For the most part we agree on stuff here, the people with really different opinions like billies friend have left. So in order to facilitate discussion we look for what separates our points. And for you premo, how I read your posts, it's always why the criticism of Israel does not apply because grey areas. These gray areas are rarely mentioned when the other factions of the conflict are mentioned. Which makes your posts seem one-sided pro Israel. Might be you don't even feel that way yourself, we and our posts are fallible, we omit stuff just by forgetting, this is a gaming forum, real opinions if this conflict should always be several pages long and carefully constructed to not forget to post all context of our opinion. So that's just what I received from your posts on the subject. Lookily for you, that's just what I make out if your posts and my opinion is just one of billions, others might perceive you differently or simply agree with that sentiment. Shrug emoji.
Might be. I can totally acknowledge grey areas for Palestinian liberation attacks. But to simply stay in power (Iran building the nuke) or trying to erase Israel (Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran).. there is not much grey area in my opinion.
It is my sincere conviction that the biggest hurdle for peace are extremists advocating for religious genocide out of fundamentalist principles.
On June 21 2025 22:18 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2025 22:00 PremoBeats wrote:On June 21 2025 20:32 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 21 2025 19:21 PremoBeats wrote:
I simply agreed with some of your takes, not all of them.
Further, I call for justice in case of war crimes or crimes in general committed by Israeli officials or soldiers.
I say that Israel has crossed lines but the underlying intent and context are important. Thus I don't see how I give Israel a carde blanche.
And I say that religious fundamentalism or the denial of Israel's existence - to me at least - is not plausible context or a good excuse. Being denied the right to exist or being the target of clear genocidal atrocities should not warrant a carde blanche... but it is context which can explain excessive force - and should still be punished - wouldn't you agree? How can you say the underlying intent is important but also say that we should disregard what Ministers say about their intent because it leads to 'moral stalemate' (it doesn't)? Cross out moral. What I meant was that we could repeat the same old stories according to these notions. At this point most of us know what the other will reply (if not for the open questions that don't get addressed). Because of that, I'd still like to go back to your claims about genocide. So far you didn't address the factuals to contest that accusation. Intent is the defining criteria for genocide. Having some ministers make atrocious or genocidal statements, does not necessarily lead to the whole government or military having ordered a genocide. For that matter: even these ministers could have only talked about it, without giving actual orders to follow through. On June 21 2025 21:21 Jankisa wrote:
How much do you know about what do Iranians or Shia Muslims actually believe?
It's fascinating that the whole text of yours had time to express empathy and sympathy for Israeli citizens for "being abandoned by West" but don't think that Palestinians were?
I mean, my dude, these Palestinians are being blown up by weapons and components of weapons coming from the West, UK and half of EU is selling arms to Israel, US is giving them their most destructive weapons, but you reserve your sympathies for the Israeli who were "abandoned".
Israel had elections in 2021, they choose this.
Gaza had elections in 2006, most of the people being blown up weren't even alive back then, and I can guarantee you that the occasional protest and waving of Palestinian flags does jack shit for them, they have no food, no water and are being bombed and shoot at on daily basis.
Up until Israel decided to attack Iran Israeli were living pretty chill lives since October, no rockets from Gaza, no fire from Lebanon or Syria, but they are the ones who deserve sympathy for being "abandoned". Jesus christ. Isn't the exactly next sentence that I also express real sympathy for Palestinians? Selective reading does not help here. So Israel chose via elections in 2021 that Hamas will commit a genocidal attack in 2023 or that Iran is ingoring nuclear protocols? Or what exactly do you mean by that? Israel denied food from entering Gaza for an extended period of time, only relenting in the face of mounting international pressure. That's a war crime and covered by genocide. There is no 'we don't know their intentions'. We have both their word and their actions constitute genocide.
Blocking food was crossing a moral red line.
That it is a genocide does not directly follow. The key is intent (as I said multiple times). If the intent is to weaken Hamas, starving Gazans is a massively reprehensible act. But even when humanitarian suffering is undeniable, legal systems require evidence of purpose and mental state; not just outcome.
Blocking food can be lawful or unlawful, depending on the intent, even if the outcome for the civilians is the same (taking into account proportionality for war crimes). I'd say the blockade is a war crime, but we will have to await the ruling.
But purpose is the key word for genocide. Hence I ask like a madman for evidence of intent.
What you wrote there legally is not correct.
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On June 21 2025 18:54 Broetchenholer wrote:
I feel like our positions are not compatible. Because on one hand you say the same things I do, Hamas bad, Iran bad, Israel bad, you always follow it up with but Israel is excused of that though. Ultimately you always present them with carde blanche. Boone can ever cheque your disapproval of Israel but Israel can always come back to loan money from you. Just like every western government...
If you undo israel, because it was mass migration and simple outperforming the "before" population in nationbuilding - you got to undo the USA, Canada, Mexico, All of south america, Southafrica, Australia, New Zealand, pretty sure I am still missing some mass migration and colonization.
And when you are done with this, you can start to push back Homosapiens to africa, where we originated and took to other shores to displace other humans like the neanderthal by outperfoming them.
There is no logical point to stop anywhere. Why go back only 70 years? why not 700 or 700.000?
Hamas has the power to kill off it's antisemitic rhetoric, end the useless war, and accept that the Palis have lost their claim to what has become Israel 70 years ago. That they are not more or less than the natives or "First Nations" in other parts of the world, and that their grasp for autonomy has failed and now they are a domestic issue.
This isn't excusing racist hardliners of israel. They are guilty of not wanting any peace, they are guilty of not accepting the palis as equal citizens. They wanted the seperation, a big fence and misery on the other side. Their political agenda involved aiding the terrorists by giving them anger and targets.. just to pose as the strongmen than can be voted for, to change nothing.
They were always free to take land from anyone who isn't fighting back, and they were always powerful enough to take it by force anyway - terrorism just provided the moral highground to take more land.
But this is just how mankind operates.
If the western world stops aiding ukraine, than Moscow will just take the land and raise it's flags. There is no moral to it, just power to do whatever the fuck you want.
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On June 21 2025 22:59 KT_Elwood wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2025 18:54 Broetchenholer wrote:
I feel like our positions are not compatible. Because on one hand you say the same things I do, Hamas bad, Iran bad, Israel bad, you always follow it up with but Israel is excused of that though. Ultimately you always present them with carde blanche. Boone can ever cheque your disapproval of Israel but Israel can always come back to loan money from you. Just like every western government... If you undo israel, because it was mass migration and simple outperforming the "before" population in nationbuilding - you got to undo the USA, Canada, Mexico, All of south america, Southafrica, Australia, New Zealand, pretty sure I am still missing some mass migration and colonization. And when you are done with this, you can start to push back Homosapiens to africa, where we originated and took to other shores to displace other humans like the neanderthal by outperfoming them. There is no logical point to stop anywhere. Why go back only 70 years? why not 700 or 700.000? Hamas has the power to kill off it's antisemitic rhetoric, end the useless war, and accept that the Palis have lost their claim to what has become Israel 70 years ago. That they are not more or less than the natives or "First Nations" in other parts of the world, and that their grasp for autonomy has failed and now they are a domestic issue. This isn't excusing racist hardliners of israel. They are guilty of not wanting any peace, they are guilty of not accepting the palis as equal citizens. They wanted the seperation, a big fence and misery on the other side. Their political agenda involved aiding the terrorists by giving them anger and targets.. just to pose as the strongmen than can be voted for, to change nothing. They were always free to take land from anyone who isn't fighting back, and they were always powerful enough to take it by force anyway - terrorism just provided the moral highground to take more land. But this is just how mankind operates. If the western world stops aiding ukraine, than Moscow will just take the land and raise it's flags. There is no moral to it, just power to do whatever the fuck you want.
I have no clue why you replied to my post with that? And I am also not sure how to respond to your point, if it really is just might makes right. I mean, in the end it is true if you are the absolute hegemonial power in the world and not even the us could just roll over anyone else. The whole point of this thread is that Israel dies not have the power to do any of that alone, they need us support and other powers to do nothing.
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We have Netanyahu explicitly denying a potential future for a Palestinian state during an active war in Gaza that has resulted in what can only be described as a beta test to a full-blown famine and a genocide.
Totally not intentional though.
Bruh.
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On June 22 2025 02:09 Magic Powers wrote:
We have Netanyahu explicitly denying a potential future for a Palestinian state during an active war in Gaza that has resulted in what can only be described as a beta test to a full-blown famine and a genocide.
Totally not intentional though.
Bruh.
International law, unlike forum culture, does not operate on exaggerations and cynicism though.
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On June 22 2025 03:18 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2025 02:09 Magic Powers wrote:
We have Netanyahu explicitly denying a potential future for a Palestinian state during an active war in Gaza that has resulted in what can only be described as a beta test to a full-blown famine and a genocide.
Totally not intentional though.
Bruh. International law, unlike forum culture, does not operate on exaggerations and cynicism though.
All of these are literal quotes from people much better qualified than you.
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On June 22 2025 03:23 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2025 03:18 PremoBeats wrote:On June 22 2025 02:09 Magic Powers wrote:
We have Netanyahu explicitly denying a potential future for a Palestinian state during an active war in Gaza that has resulted in what can only be described as a beta test to a full-blown famine and a genocide.
Totally not intentional though.
Bruh. International law, unlike forum culture, does not operate on exaggerations and cynicism though. All of these are literal quotes from people much better qualified than you.
... who are completely unbiased, I presume. Or the same people you read about for knowledge on fascism?
Again: we need official documents, executive orders, military protocols. Talking about the future as in statehood is not the same as talking about killing off Gazans.
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I have been thinking a lot lately about the common argument about removing these awful leaders and government by force because of the chaos that will happen after. I do think that it is a concern, but it also feels pretty damn awful to be saying that we are going to leave you to be brutally repressed, killed and tortured to keep the problems of the area within the borders. This is a design by the dictators to make sure that there is no one ready to fill the vacuum and they are the only one that can hold it together by their awful means, which also regardless of political affiliation, involves them living in incredible wealth. In a way it is like the Nuke where it all just a means to keep them in power and keep oppressing their people and I do not know why anyone would argue it is a good thing.
Should we not be trying to find ways for the countries post dictatorship to become health democracies? Rather than just being like, well it is much easier if we just leave that horrible monster in charge because it is way easier for us.
I find the argument strange because it never seems to get any pushback and is often written as almost as if it is a kindness to the (in this case) the Iranian people. When it is really not, or at least it is far from altruistic.
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On June 22 2025 03:52 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2025 03:23 Magic Powers wrote:On June 22 2025 03:18 PremoBeats wrote:On June 22 2025 02:09 Magic Powers wrote:
We have Netanyahu explicitly denying a potential future for a Palestinian state during an active war in Gaza that has resulted in what can only be described as a beta test to a full-blown famine and a genocide.
Totally not intentional though.
Bruh. International law, unlike forum culture, does not operate on exaggerations and cynicism though. All of these are literal quotes from people much better qualified than you. ... who are completely unbiased, I presume. Or the same people you read about for knowledge on fascism? Again: we need official documents, executive orders, military protocols. Talking about the future as in statehood is not the same as talking about killing off Gazans. Something like a United Nations investigation?The developments in this report lead the Special Committee to conclude that the
policies and practices of Israel during the reporting period are consistent with the
characteristics of genocide. Source
That's from September last year.
No wonder your not seeing genocide when your burden of proof is nothing short of a hand written note from Netanyahu saying "yes I am committing genocide"
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On June 22 2025 03:52 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2025 03:23 Magic Powers wrote:On June 22 2025 03:18 PremoBeats wrote:On June 22 2025 02:09 Magic Powers wrote:
We have Netanyahu explicitly denying a potential future for a Palestinian state during an active war in Gaza that has resulted in what can only be described as a beta test to a full-blown famine and a genocide.
Totally not intentional though.
Bruh. International law, unlike forum culture, does not operate on exaggerations and cynicism though. All of these are literal quotes from people much better qualified than you. ... who are completely unbiased, I presume. Or the same people you read about for knowledge on fascism? Again: we need official documents, executive orders, military protocols. Talking about the future as in statehood is not the same as talking about killing off Gazans.
Of course they're just biased. Literally the entire UN is biased. Sure as heck.
You're getting your information from an entirely different planet. This is Earth.
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On June 22 2025 04:34 Gorsameth wrote:
No wonder your not seeing genocide when your burden of proof is nothing short of a hand written note from Netanyahu saying "yes I am committing genocide"
Thought we had some of those.
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On June 22 2025 07:18 Turbovolver wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2025 04:34 Gorsameth wrote:
No wonder your not seeing genocide when your burden of proof is nothing short of a hand written note from Netanyahu saying "yes I am committing genocide"
Thought we had some of those.
You absolutely do, you have people directly in the government dictating policy stating they want to starve the Palestinian people with the stated goal of forcing anyone who is innocent to leave (which is like what all genocides do) which then gives them a blank cheque to murder all remaining peoples as only Hamas militants would bother to stay.
We’re not talking about off the cuff comments but actual op eds bemoaning that Israeli policy was too soft.
On June 22 2025 04:18 Billyboy wrote:
Should we not be trying to find ways for the countries post dictatorship to become health democracies? Rather than just being like, well it is much easier if we just leave that horrible monster in charge because it is way easier for us.
I find the argument strange because it never seems to get any pushback and is often written as almost as if it is a kindness to the (in this case) the Iranian people. When it is really not, or at least it is far from altruistic.
The issue is that there is no trust that the Israeli or American governments and people in power have any care for the secular development of an Iranian democracy because you know <points at the Israeli ethnostate and Republicans being captured by the religious and nihilistic right>
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Without Iran’s support, it will be interesting to see how things progress for Palestinians. Hamas had an iron grip for a long time but I am assuming we will see new powers emerge. Hopefully one of them pushes for demilitarization
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On June 22 2025 10:17 Mohdoo wrote:
Without Iran’s support, it will be interesting to see how things progress for Palestinians. Hamas had an iron grip for a long time but I am assuming we will see new powers emerge. Hopefully one of them pushes for demilitarization
Funny that you think there will be any progress for Palestinians despite everything that has happened to said peoples.
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On June 22 2025 10:20 Hat Trick of Today wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2025 10:17 Mohdoo wrote:
Without Iran’s support, it will be interesting to see how things progress for Palestinians. Hamas had an iron grip for a long time but I am assuming we will see new powers emerge. Hopefully one of them pushes for demilitarization Funny that you think there will be any progress for Palestinians despite everything that has happened to said peoples.
plenty happened to jewish for thousands of years too.
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EPT
