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Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine - Page 439

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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.

Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.
Billyboy
Profile Joined September 2024
2477 Posts
Last Edited: 2025-06-22 01:30:17
June 22 2025 01:30 GMT
#8761
It could be a huge win, but I'm far from optimistic. In the past 30 years we have had three horrible dictatorships toppled, Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan. All were short term successes and horrible long term outcomes.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
June 22 2025 01:34 GMT
#8762
On June 22 2025 10:30 Billyboy wrote:
It could be a huge win, but I'm far from optimistic. In the past 30 years we have had three horrible dictatorships toppled, Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan. All were short term successes and horrible long term outcomes.

Iran won’t have a military worth anything by the time Israel is done. Without nukes and without their enormous momentum, Iran just isn’t going to be some kinda major threat to anyone. Their enormous existing fleet was all they had to keep things uncertain and to prevent the crystallization of the middle eastern hegemony. That’s totally over now.
Billyboy
Profile Joined September 2024
2477 Posts
June 22 2025 01:58 GMT
#8763
On June 22 2025 10:34 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 22 2025 10:30 Billyboy wrote:
It could be a huge win, but I'm far from optimistic. In the past 30 years we have had three horrible dictatorships toppled, Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan. All were short term successes and horrible long term outcomes.

Iran won’t have a military worth anything by the time Israel is done. Without nukes and without their enormous momentum, Iran just isn’t going to be some kinda major threat to anyone. Their enormous existing fleet was all they had to keep things uncertain and to prevent the crystallization of the middle eastern hegemony. That’s totally over now.

Iraq, Libya, and Afghanistan were all not major threats to anyone after the initial attacks and I don't think anyone considers them successes.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
June 22 2025 02:15 GMT
#8764
On June 22 2025 10:58 Billyboy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 22 2025 10:34 Mohdoo wrote:
On June 22 2025 10:30 Billyboy wrote:
It could be a huge win, but I'm far from optimistic. In the past 30 years we have had three horrible dictatorships toppled, Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan. All were short term successes and horrible long term outcomes.

Iran won’t have a military worth anything by the time Israel is done. Without nukes and without their enormous momentum, Iran just isn’t going to be some kinda major threat to anyone. Their enormous existing fleet was all they had to keep things uncertain and to prevent the crystallization of the middle eastern hegemony. That’s totally over now.

Iraq, Libya, and Afghanistan were all not major threats to anyone after the initial attacks and I don't think anyone considers them successes.

And what we learned is: “alright so anyway, see ya”

In an ideal scenario, Iran ends up in a bit of chaos for a moment but ultimately emergences with a fresh and optimistic future.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14211 Posts
Last Edited: 2025-06-22 02:32:16
June 22 2025 02:30 GMT
#8765
Yes that is the ideal scenario in every regime change, tell me how the record is going on those recently?

All this will due is deepen the islamics world's hatred towards America, as its now indefinitely tied to Isreal. The middle east was very friendly with America before Isreal, they do not like us anymore, and this will simply cause them to hate us more.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
Billyboy
Profile Joined September 2024
2477 Posts
June 22 2025 02:34 GMT
#8766
On June 22 2025 11:15 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 22 2025 10:58 Billyboy wrote:
On June 22 2025 10:34 Mohdoo wrote:
On June 22 2025 10:30 Billyboy wrote:
It could be a huge win, but I'm far from optimistic. In the past 30 years we have had three horrible dictatorships toppled, Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan. All were short term successes and horrible long term outcomes.

Iran won’t have a military worth anything by the time Israel is done. Without nukes and without their enormous momentum, Iran just isn’t going to be some kinda major threat to anyone. Their enormous existing fleet was all they had to keep things uncertain and to prevent the crystallization of the middle eastern hegemony. That’s totally over now.

Iraq, Libya, and Afghanistan were all not major threats to anyone after the initial attacks and I don't think anyone considers them successes.

And what we learned is: “alright so anyway, see ya”

In an ideal scenario, Iran ends up in a bit of chaos for a moment but ultimately emergences with a fresh and optimistic future.

I agree Iran with a optimistic future is ideal. I totally disagree that this is anywhere close to over.
pmp10
Profile Joined April 2012
3400 Posts
June 22 2025 06:28 GMT
#8767
So now it's time to see Iranian retaliation, or lack of it.
Their position being very weak I'd expect any attacks on US to be symbolic.

But that doesn't mean Trump will get his 'unconditional surrender' either.
There is always the chance that mullahs have been too humiliated to maintain power and something worse will take their place.
Broetchenholer
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany1967 Posts
June 22 2025 06:33 GMT
#8768
On June 22 2025 04:18 Billyboy wrote:
I have been thinking a lot lately about the common argument about removing these awful leaders and government by force because of the chaos that will happen after. I do think that it is a concern, but it also feels pretty damn awful to be saying that we are going to leave you to be brutally repressed, killed and tortured to keep the problems of the area within the borders. This is a design by the dictators to make sure that there is no one ready to fill the vacuum and they are the only one that can hold it together by their awful means, which also regardless of political affiliation, involves them living in incredible wealth. In a way it is like the Nuke where it all just a means to keep them in power and keep oppressing their people and I do not know why anyone would argue it is a good thing.

Should we not be trying to find ways for the countries post dictatorship to become health democracies? Rather than just being like, well it is much easier if we just leave that horrible monster in charge because it is way easier for us.

I find the argument strange because it never seems to get any pushback and is often written as almost as if it is a kindness to the (in this case) the Iranian people. When it is really not, or at least it is far from altruistic.


So, after you have stopped the terrible regime of Iran, where do you continue? Saudi Arabia? Turkey? Israel? Russia? China? USA? The world would be a better place if we just bombed a multi party system into the States, a new constitution, laws to limit money in politics... You for that too? I have never seen someone being consistent about calling for the toppling of regimes "for freedom"
pmp10
Profile Joined April 2012
3400 Posts
Last Edited: 2025-06-22 06:39:32
June 22 2025 06:38 GMT
#8769
On June 22 2025 10:17 Mohdoo wrote:
Without Iran’s support, it will be interesting to see how things progress for Palestinians. Hamas had an iron grip for a long time but I am assuming we will see new powers emerge. Hopefully one of them pushes for demilitarization

You only need to look at the west bank to have the answer.
Hamas and Iranian power is just an excuse, colonization and displacements will continue anyway without it.
Land grabs have become a central part of the Jewish state just as hating Israel has been for Iran.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24377 Posts
June 22 2025 08:05 GMT
#8770
On June 22 2025 15:33 Broetchenholer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 22 2025 04:18 Billyboy wrote:
I have been thinking a lot lately about the common argument about removing these awful leaders and government by force because of the chaos that will happen after. I do think that it is a concern, but it also feels pretty damn awful to be saying that we are going to leave you to be brutally repressed, killed and tortured to keep the problems of the area within the borders. This is a design by the dictators to make sure that there is no one ready to fill the vacuum and they are the only one that can hold it together by their awful means, which also regardless of political affiliation, involves them living in incredible wealth. In a way it is like the Nuke where it all just a means to keep them in power and keep oppressing their people and I do not know why anyone would argue it is a good thing.

Should we not be trying to find ways for the countries post dictatorship to become health democracies? Rather than just being like, well it is much easier if we just leave that horrible monster in charge because it is way easier for us.

I find the argument strange because it never seems to get any pushback and is often written as almost as if it is a kindness to the (in this case) the Iranian people. When it is really not, or at least it is far from altruistic.


So, after you have stopped the terrible regime of Iran, where do you continue? Saudi Arabia? Turkey? Israel? Russia? China? USA? The world would be a better place if we just bombed a multi party system into the States, a new constitution, laws to limit money in politics... You for that too? I have never seen someone being consistent about calling for the toppling of regimes "for freedom"

Wish we could all be around to see people reading/reacting to our posting about this stuff as it was happening 100, 200, 300+ years from now.

The fact that Saudi Arabia is an absolute theocratic monarchy that's still chopping people's heads off for being gay but also a steadfast ally of the West will be one of the things that future junior high/high school kids spend countless hours trying to understand stoned in their basements/bunkers/vaults.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
ZeroByte13
Profile Joined March 2022
799 Posts
June 22 2025 10:03 GMT
#8771
On June 22 2025 15:28 pmp10 wrote:
So now it's time to see Iranian retaliation, or lack of it.
Their position being very weak I'd expect any attacks on US to be symbolic.
Their only (already pretty small) chance is if US doens't get involved too much, more than now.
So I'm not sure they would do anything vs US as this would give Trump more support i.e. "see, they're attacking us".
Sadist
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States7328 Posts
June 22 2025 11:24 GMT
#8772
On June 22 2025 11:30 Sermokala wrote:
Yes that is the ideal scenario in every regime change, tell me how the record is going on those recently?

All this will due is deepen the islamics world's hatred towards America, as its now indefinitely tied to Isreal. The middle east was very friendly with America before Isreal, they do not like us anymore, and this will simply cause them to hate us more.



I thought quite a bit of the islamic world did not care for iran. Is that not the case?
How do you go from where you are to where you want to be? I think you have to have an enthusiasm for life. You have to have a dream, a goal and you have to be willing to work for it. Jim Valvano
Billyboy
Profile Joined September 2024
2477 Posts
June 22 2025 13:35 GMT
#8773
On June 22 2025 15:33 Broetchenholer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 22 2025 04:18 Billyboy wrote:
I have been thinking a lot lately about the common argument about removing these awful leaders and government by force because of the chaos that will happen after. I do think that it is a concern, but it also feels pretty damn awful to be saying that we are going to leave you to be brutally repressed, killed and tortured to keep the problems of the area within the borders. This is a design by the dictators to make sure that there is no one ready to fill the vacuum and they are the only one that can hold it together by their awful means, which also regardless of political affiliation, involves them living in incredible wealth. In a way it is like the Nuke where it all just a means to keep them in power and keep oppressing their people and I do not know why anyone would argue it is a good thing.

Should we not be trying to find ways for the countries post dictatorship to become health democracies? Rather than just being like, well it is much easier if we just leave that horrible monster in charge because it is way easier for us.

I find the argument strange because it never seems to get any pushback and is often written as almost as if it is a kindness to the (in this case) the Iranian people. When it is really not, or at least it is far from altruistic.


So, after you have stopped the terrible regime of Iran, where do you continue? Saudi Arabia? Turkey? Israel? Russia? China? USA? The world would be a better place if we just bombed a multi party system into the States, a new constitution, laws to limit money in politics... You for that too? I have never seen someone being consistent about calling for the toppling of regimes "for freedom"

That is what makes it complicated. There is a huge cost. You also can not pretend you are doing right by a huge amount of people leaving them as terribly oppressed, but the consequences of freedom are often worse, or a different kind of oppression.

It just kind of rubs me the wrong way when people from the left talk about all the terrorism and problems from the migration after Syria or Iraq, when lots of individuals who left are living 10x a better life.
Billyboy
Profile Joined September 2024
2477 Posts
June 22 2025 13:37 GMT
#8774
On June 22 2025 15:38 pmp10 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 22 2025 10:17 Mohdoo wrote:
Without Iran’s support, it will be interesting to see how things progress for Palestinians. Hamas had an iron grip for a long time but I am assuming we will see new powers emerge. Hopefully one of them pushes for demilitarization

You only need to look at the west bank to have the answer.
Hamas and Iranian power is just an excuse, colonization and displacements will continue anyway without it.
Land grabs have become a central part of the Jewish state just as hating Israel has been for Iran.

How much land in square KM's has Israel grabbed in the last 50 years? How does that compare to the amount that they have given back in exchange for peace?

These are not rhetorical, I do not know the answer but I'm guessing the numbers are not going to lend credence to your claim.
Billyboy
Profile Joined September 2024
2477 Posts
June 22 2025 13:41 GMT
#8775
On June 22 2025 17:05 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 22 2025 15:33 Broetchenholer wrote:
On June 22 2025 04:18 Billyboy wrote:
I have been thinking a lot lately about the common argument about removing these awful leaders and government by force because of the chaos that will happen after. I do think that it is a concern, but it also feels pretty damn awful to be saying that we are going to leave you to be brutally repressed, killed and tortured to keep the problems of the area within the borders. This is a design by the dictators to make sure that there is no one ready to fill the vacuum and they are the only one that can hold it together by their awful means, which also regardless of political affiliation, involves them living in incredible wealth. In a way it is like the Nuke where it all just a means to keep them in power and keep oppressing their people and I do not know why anyone would argue it is a good thing.

Should we not be trying to find ways for the countries post dictatorship to become health democracies? Rather than just being like, well it is much easier if we just leave that horrible monster in charge because it is way easier for us.

I find the argument strange because it never seems to get any pushback and is often written as almost as if it is a kindness to the (in this case) the Iranian people. When it is really not, or at least it is far from altruistic.


So, after you have stopped the terrible regime of Iran, where do you continue? Saudi Arabia? Turkey? Israel? Russia? China? USA? The world would be a better place if we just bombed a multi party system into the States, a new constitution, laws to limit money in politics... You for that too? I have never seen someone being consistent about calling for the toppling of regimes "for freedom"

Wish we could all be around to see people reading/reacting to our posting about this stuff as it was happening 100, 200, 300+ years from now.

The fact that Saudi Arabia is an absolute theocratic monarchy that's still chopping people's heads off for being gay but also a steadfast ally of the West will be one of the things that future junior high/high school kids spend countless hours trying to understand stoned in their basements/bunkers/vaults.

So you want the US and Israel to attack SA? Or is it your opinion that you have to attack all evil regimes or none? Does it matter if one is openly making war in other nations or not? Does it matter if one is openly trying to make a nuclear weapon while openly being genocidal?

Broetchenholer
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany1967 Posts
June 22 2025 14:31 GMT
#8776
On June 22 2025 22:37 Billyboy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 22 2025 15:38 pmp10 wrote:
On June 22 2025 10:17 Mohdoo wrote:
Without Iran’s support, it will be interesting to see how things progress for Palestinians. Hamas had an iron grip for a long time but I am assuming we will see new powers emerge. Hopefully one of them pushes for demilitarization

You only need to look at the west bank to have the answer.
Hamas and Iranian power is just an excuse, colonization and displacements will continue anyway without it.
Land grabs have become a central part of the Jewish state just as hating Israel has been for Iran.

How much land in square KM's has Israel grabbed in the last 50 years? How does that compare to the amount that they have given back in exchange for peace?

These are not rhetorical, I do not know the answer but I'm guessing the numbers are not going to lend credence to your claim.


Do you want the number they have given back in my lifetime? Pretty sure that's zero.
Broetchenholer
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany1967 Posts
June 22 2025 14:39 GMT
#8777
On June 22 2025 22:41 Billyboy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 22 2025 17:05 GreenHorizons wrote:
On June 22 2025 15:33 Broetchenholer wrote:
On June 22 2025 04:18 Billyboy wrote:
I have been thinking a lot lately about the common argument about removing these awful leaders and government by force because of the chaos that will happen after. I do think that it is a concern, but it also feels pretty damn awful to be saying that we are going to leave you to be brutally repressed, killed and tortured to keep the problems of the area within the borders. This is a design by the dictators to make sure that there is no one ready to fill the vacuum and they are the only one that can hold it together by their awful means, which also regardless of political affiliation, involves them living in incredible wealth. In a way it is like the Nuke where it all just a means to keep them in power and keep oppressing their people and I do not know why anyone would argue it is a good thing.

Should we not be trying to find ways for the countries post dictatorship to become health democracies? Rather than just being like, well it is much easier if we just leave that horrible monster in charge because it is way easier for us.

I find the argument strange because it never seems to get any pushback and is often written as almost as if it is a kindness to the (in this case) the Iranian people. When it is really not, or at least it is far from altruistic.


So, after you have stopped the terrible regime of Iran, where do you continue? Saudi Arabia? Turkey? Israel? Russia? China? USA? The world would be a better place if we just bombed a multi party system into the States, a new constitution, laws to limit money in politics... You for that too? I have never seen someone being consistent about calling for the toppling of regimes "for freedom"

Wish we could all be around to see people reading/reacting to our posting about this stuff as it was happening 100, 200, 300+ years from now.

The fact that Saudi Arabia is an absolute theocratic monarchy that's still chopping people's heads off for being gay but also a steadfast ally of the West will be one of the things that future junior high/high school kids spend countless hours trying to understand stoned in their basements/bunkers/vaults.

So you want the US and Israel to attack SA? Or is it your opinion that you have to attack all evil regimes or none? Does it matter if one is openly making war in other nations or not? Does it matter if one is openly trying to make a nuclear weapon while openly being genocidal?



We are just interested in YOUR logic which countries need to be invaded and freedom brought. You believe Iran needed to be bombed. You did not call for the bombing of similar regimes or much worse regimes. How about South Susan? The powers there cannot even claim to at one point have any way of opposing the West, yet the us are not incentivized to bomb there despite actually mass murdering going on. Saudi Arabia by the way is openly making war in another country, it's called Yemen. So only countries making nuclear weapons are to be bombed in order to free their population, even if they are far from the worst at suppressing their population?
Legan
Profile Joined June 2017
Finland597 Posts
June 22 2025 15:00 GMT
#8778
If we consider Iran to be led by religious fanatics who do not care about dying, what kind of response will they make? Strikes on USA bases for sure. Marching through Iraq to liberate Muslims from Israel and the USA? Launching a dirty bomb on Israel? Surely, they will do the most insane thing and will not be rational about the consequences.
Creator of Gresvan, Tropical Sacrifice, Taitalika, and Golden Forge
Billyboy
Profile Joined September 2024
2477 Posts
June 22 2025 15:07 GMT
#8779
On June 22 2025 23:39 Broetchenholer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 22 2025 22:41 Billyboy wrote:
On June 22 2025 17:05 GreenHorizons wrote:
On June 22 2025 15:33 Broetchenholer wrote:
On June 22 2025 04:18 Billyboy wrote:
I have been thinking a lot lately about the common argument about removing these awful leaders and government by force because of the chaos that will happen after. I do think that it is a concern, but it also feels pretty damn awful to be saying that we are going to leave you to be brutally repressed, killed and tortured to keep the problems of the area within the borders. This is a design by the dictators to make sure that there is no one ready to fill the vacuum and they are the only one that can hold it together by their awful means, which also regardless of political affiliation, involves them living in incredible wealth. In a way it is like the Nuke where it all just a means to keep them in power and keep oppressing their people and I do not know why anyone would argue it is a good thing.

Should we not be trying to find ways for the countries post dictatorship to become health democracies? Rather than just being like, well it is much easier if we just leave that horrible monster in charge because it is way easier for us.

I find the argument strange because it never seems to get any pushback and is often written as almost as if it is a kindness to the (in this case) the Iranian people. When it is really not, or at least it is far from altruistic.


So, after you have stopped the terrible regime of Iran, where do you continue? Saudi Arabia? Turkey? Israel? Russia? China? USA? The world would be a better place if we just bombed a multi party system into the States, a new constitution, laws to limit money in politics... You for that too? I have never seen someone being consistent about calling for the toppling of regimes "for freedom"

Wish we could all be around to see people reading/reacting to our posting about this stuff as it was happening 100, 200, 300+ years from now.

The fact that Saudi Arabia is an absolute theocratic monarchy that's still chopping people's heads off for being gay but also a steadfast ally of the West will be one of the things that future junior high/high school kids spend countless hours trying to understand stoned in their basements/bunkers/vaults.

So you want the US and Israel to attack SA? Or is it your opinion that you have to attack all evil regimes or none? Does it matter if one is openly making war in other nations or not? Does it matter if one is openly trying to make a nuclear weapon while openly being genocidal?



We are just interested in YOUR logic which countries need to be invaded and freedom brought. You believe Iran needed to be bombed. You did not call for the bombing of similar regimes or much worse regimes. How about South Susan? The powers there cannot even claim to at one point have any way of opposing the West, yet the us are not incentivized to bomb there despite actually mass murdering going on. Saudi Arabia by the way is openly making war in another country, it's called Yemen. So only countries making nuclear weapons are to be bombed in order to free their population, even if they are far from the worst at suppressing their population?

Where did you get that I wanted it from? Feel free to find the post. I'm bringing up the idea behind this all. People are so damn sure about things that they think there way is crystal clear the right way. No one bothers to actually critically think that hmmm maybe leaving 100m under oppression so they do not migrate to our cities and make them less great is not the altruistic view they think it is. It is also pretty shitty, just like al the other options.
Billyboy
Profile Joined September 2024
2477 Posts
June 22 2025 15:11 GMT
#8780
On June 22 2025 23:31 Broetchenholer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 22 2025 22:37 Billyboy wrote:
On June 22 2025 15:38 pmp10 wrote:
On June 22 2025 10:17 Mohdoo wrote:
Without Iran’s support, it will be interesting to see how things progress for Palestinians. Hamas had an iron grip for a long time but I am assuming we will see new powers emerge. Hopefully one of them pushes for demilitarization

You only need to look at the west bank to have the answer.
Hamas and Iranian power is just an excuse, colonization and displacements will continue anyway without it.
Land grabs have become a central part of the Jewish state just as hating Israel has been for Iran.

How much land in square KM's has Israel grabbed in the last 50 years? How does that compare to the amount that they have given back in exchange for peace?

These are not rhetorical, I do not know the answer but I'm guessing the numbers are not going to lend credence to your claim.


Do you want the number they have given back in my lifetime? Pretty sure that's zero.

Unless you're under 20, you are not correct.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_the_Gaza_Strip#:~:text=In 2005, Israel disengaged from,Bank were dismantled as well.

One that has worked long term is with Egypt, but Egypt has also kept there end of the bargin.

Yes, in 1979, Israel and Egypt signed a peace treaty that included a land exchange. As part of the agreement, Israel returned the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt, which it had captured in the 1967 Six-Day War. In return, Egypt recognized Israel's right to exist and established full diplomatic relations with the country.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt–Israel_peace_treaty


Israel has tons of faults and we all know them well and get them repeated over and over, but they are far from the only bad guys in the region. And they unlike a lot of the other bad guys actually treat their own population pretty well.
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