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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. |
On March 26 2024 02:52 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2024 02:25 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 26 2024 01:41 Gorsameth wrote:On March 26 2024 01:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 25 2024 02:21 Mikau wrote:On March 24 2024 04:24 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 24 2024 00:52 Ciaus237 wrote:Israel announces largest West Bank land seizure since 1993. Some key highlights, including an explanation of the title:
Israel’s far-right finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, announced the seizure of 10 square kilometers (3.8 square miles) of Palestinian territory in the West Bank on Friday. The move marks the single largest land seizure by the Israeli government since the 1993 Oslo accords, according to Peace Now, a settlement watchdog group.
As well as recent legal changes that make it easier for this to happen:
In June, the Knesset waived a long-standing legal precedent that required the prime minister and the defense minister to sign off on West Bank settlement construction at every phase. Smotrich enjoys near-total control over construction planning and approvals in the West Bank, and approved a record number of settlements in 2023.
“Israel has reached the conclusion that they could get away with this huge land grab because of the lack of international action,” said Sarit Michaeli, international advocacy lead at B’Tselem. “There have been individual economic U.S. sanctions placed on violent settlers, but the greater violence of the occupation is this colossal land theft.
Full article below. + Show Spoiler +
Israel’s far-right finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, announced the seizure of 10 square kilometers (3.8 square miles) of Palestinian territory in the West Bank on Friday. The move marks the single largest land seizure by the Israeli government since the 1993 Oslo accords, according to Peace Now, a settlement watchdog group.
“While there are those in Israel and the world who seek to undermine our right over the Judea and Samaria area and the country in general,” Smotrich said Friday, referring to the territory by its biblical name, “we are promoting settlement through hard work and in a strategic manner all over the country.”
Israeli settlements in the West Bank are considered illegal under international law. Still, Israel has used land orders like the one issued Friday to gain control over 16 percent of Palestinian-controlled lands in the West Bank. The newly seized area includes parcels in the Jordan Valley and between the settlements of Maale Adumim and Keidar.
The announcement came as Secretary of State Antony Blinken landed in Tel Aviv for talks with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu about the future of the war in Gaza. Blinken’s arrival followed meetings in Cairo with several Arab leaders, and amid calls from Democratic senators for President Biden to establish a “bold, public framework” for a two-state solution that recognizes a “nonmilitarized Palestinian state.”
Friday’s land order is particularly problematic for the prospect of a two-state solution, experts say.
“If Israel confiscates land around Jerusalem, all the way to the Dead Sea, there will be no future for a Palestinian capital in East Jerusalem,” said Hamza Zubiedat, a land rights activist for the Ramallah-based Ma’an Development Center. “This is where a Palestinian capital was supposed to be located, according to the American and European talks.”
The land transfer will also cut across the West Bank, dividing the north and south.
“If the Israelis annex this area near Maale Adumim, it will be a catastrophe for Palestinians who live in the south,” Zubiedat said. “Palestinian traders, especially in the south, will be cut off, and it will become impossible to have any independent Palestinian ways of life.”
More than 40 percent of the West Bank is under the control of Israeli settlers, according to the Israel-based rights group B’Tselem, and more than half-a-million Jewish residents now live in the West Bank. Israel’s government has also used incentive programs to move Jewish residents into West Bank settlements, where more than 200 settlements and unofficial outposts have fractured the Palestinian territory and displaced Palestinian residents. In recent years, the Housing Ministry has offered subsidized apartments in the West Bank through a lottery system.
Palestinians have little ability to stop the land transfers. After the 1967 war, Israel issued a military order that stopped the process of land registration across the West Bank. Now families lack the paperwork to prove that they have private ownership over their land. And tax records, the only other evidence of West Bank property rights, are not accepted by Israeli authorities.
In June, the Knesset waived a long-standing legal precedent that required the prime minister and the defense minister to sign off on West Bank settlement construction at every phase. Smotrich enjoys near-total control over construction planning and approvals in the West Bank, and approved a record number of settlements in 2023.
“Israel has reached the conclusion that they could get away with this huge land grab because of the lack of international action,” said Sarit Michaeli, international advocacy lead at B’Tselem. “There have been individual economic U.S. sanctions placed on violent settlers, but the greater violence of the occupation is this colossal land theft.
Smotrich, a member of Netanyahu’s right-wing coalition, is a key leader in Israel’s settlement movement. Dahlia Scheindlin, an Israeli political analyst, called the Friday land transfer announcement by Smotrich a “provocation,” but also the continuation of his pro-settler ideological project. “He entered the government with one overriding purpose: to annex all land conquered in 1967 and extend permanent Jewish sovereignty everywhere, no matter how and when it has to happen,” Scheindlin said. “The timing and provocation ahead of Blinken’s visit is a bonus.”
The Biden administration announced sanctions on two West Bank settler outposts earlier this month, the first use of such economic restrictions on Israeli outposts. While West Bank settlements are authorized by the Israeli government, outposts are considered illegal under Israeli law.
The only way to stop this is real international pressure. Sanctions, full boycotts of business, academic and political institutions in Israel and exclusion from the international community. The theft of land and disregard for Palestinians is baked into the law and identity of the state. The kind of changes needed are of similarly massive scope to those implemented when Apartheid was overturned here - and the pressure for that will never come from within. The only way to get real international pressure is to force Biden/the US to stop protecting Israel from it. The only way to do that is to pressure Biden. The only way to do that is to disrupt Biden's/the US's ability to protect Israel from international pressure to stop their ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign through organized civil disobedience. Unfortunately, in the US, "the white moderate" would rather vote for genocide enablers than engage in the disruption necessary to force the person they support to stop aiding and abetting Israel's ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign of Palestinians. So Biden's probably going to keep aiding and abetting what his own voters see as the genocide of Palestinians and they'll all express ostensible regret if Israel finishes their campaign as a consequence of such cowardice. You're right. The way to pressure Biden is to make sure the guy who wants Israel to have a carte blanche and complete freedom to do whatever it wants to do in Gaza wins the presidency. That'll show Biden. The extra Palestinian casualties this will end up causing thank you for your enlightenment. On March 25 2024 18:33 Gorsameth wrote:
"We should show the Democrats we don't agree with Biden's Israel policy by letting a person with an even worse policy win"
Yeah I don't think you realise the point your not sending. Not sure what you two are objecting to? I was talking about people that voted for Biden and want/plan to vote for him again applying pressure through organized civil disobedience to discourage him from aiding and abetting what his own voters identify as genocide? You have a problem with that? Do you have a preferred alternative to apply pressure or are you two simply advocating relentless sycophancy in the face of genocide? There are people other then you who post in this thread. Its possible to respond to one of these other posts. Like this one On March 25 2024 15:42 pmp10 wrote:
I'm pretty sure that Biden is beyond changing on Gaza.
The best voter can hope is to tie Biden defeat to his Israel policy.
Gives them some chance that the next democratic administration will handle things differently.
You can't tie Bidens defeat to his Israel policy when the person who will have beaten him has an even worse policy. One irony being that his policy of aiding and abetting genocide would be tied to his defeat by his own supporters anyway by blaming people for not voting for him despite it. So yeah, you can. It's actually harder not to. But that doesn't make his supporters recognize their problem is their bipartisan support for genocide rather than the lack of enthusiastic support for genocide from their left flank. It seems by the 100s of posts you have made on this topic that you are certain that Biden is losing massive amounts of support for his policy work on Israel so far. Can you please provide your source? My understanding is that Israel is fairly low on most Americans list and that there is fairly similar amounts of people who want Israel to get more support as there is that want none. How many that want none are going to just not vote? And how many are going to vote for Trump who would give more support? How many would Biden lose if he cut off all support as you ask? How many of those would not vote at all and how many would vote for Trump? My understanding is that Biden from a electoral perspective would be worse off if he listened to you. Can you prove me wrong? If not maybe you need to change your argument because you have posted it over and over and you can tell it is not very compelling without any source or proof and you can tell this because you receive push back from even those who support your position. There is also no one who's mind you have changed. Perhaps sourcing your argument would help, in the US pol thread there is a rule about not making arguments in absentia. It appears that your presumed conclusion is not shared. It would help if you showed the data or at least logic behind your presumption. Show nested quote +No arguments in absentia.
In other words, do not argue using language that presumes conclusions that not everyone might share. If you think religion is hogwash, then intelligently and deliberately point out how you have come to this conclusion. Do not simply say “religion is garbage”, for it makes you look like a presumptuous fool and it degrades the entire conversation. If every poster attempted to be less unequivocal and more expository, the world of TL would be a better place.
Just as an aside, I do not believe GH is suggesting that Biden is actively losing support because of his policies on Israel. Rather, GH is pointing to Dem voters being forced to vote for genocide regardless, in an attempt to point out (as always) that the system is so fundamentally broken that even the basic value of "No genocide" is not one you can have reflected in your presidential vote this year. It isn't an argument in absentia because that wasn't the argument he was making.
Less "Biden is losing support because of his policies on Israel", more "Isn't it horribly fucked that even voting for the 'good guys' involves voting for someone who actively aids and abets genocide?"
+ Show Spoiler +For clarity I'm paraphrasing GH's position as best I understand it, and do not intend to take that position as my own.
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Northern Ireland26236 Posts
On March 26 2024 12:57 Fleetfeet wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2024 02:52 JimmiC wrote:On March 26 2024 02:25 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 26 2024 01:41 Gorsameth wrote:On March 26 2024 01:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 25 2024 02:21 Mikau wrote:On March 24 2024 04:24 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 24 2024 00:52 Ciaus237 wrote:Israel announces largest West Bank land seizure since 1993. Some key highlights, including an explanation of the title:
Israel’s far-right finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, announced the seizure of 10 square kilometers (3.8 square miles) of Palestinian territory in the West Bank on Friday. The move marks the single largest land seizure by the Israeli government since the 1993 Oslo accords, according to Peace Now, a settlement watchdog group.
As well as recent legal changes that make it easier for this to happen:
In June, the Knesset waived a long-standing legal precedent that required the prime minister and the defense minister to sign off on West Bank settlement construction at every phase. Smotrich enjoys near-total control over construction planning and approvals in the West Bank, and approved a record number of settlements in 2023.
“Israel has reached the conclusion that they could get away with this huge land grab because of the lack of international action,” said Sarit Michaeli, international advocacy lead at B’Tselem. “There have been individual economic U.S. sanctions placed on violent settlers, but the greater violence of the occupation is this colossal land theft.
Full article below. + Show Spoiler +
Israel’s far-right finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, announced the seizure of 10 square kilometers (3.8 square miles) of Palestinian territory in the West Bank on Friday. The move marks the single largest land seizure by the Israeli government since the 1993 Oslo accords, according to Peace Now, a settlement watchdog group.
“While there are those in Israel and the world who seek to undermine our right over the Judea and Samaria area and the country in general,” Smotrich said Friday, referring to the territory by its biblical name, “we are promoting settlement through hard work and in a strategic manner all over the country.”
Israeli settlements in the West Bank are considered illegal under international law. Still, Israel has used land orders like the one issued Friday to gain control over 16 percent of Palestinian-controlled lands in the West Bank. The newly seized area includes parcels in the Jordan Valley and between the settlements of Maale Adumim and Keidar.
The announcement came as Secretary of State Antony Blinken landed in Tel Aviv for talks with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu about the future of the war in Gaza. Blinken’s arrival followed meetings in Cairo with several Arab leaders, and amid calls from Democratic senators for President Biden to establish a “bold, public framework” for a two-state solution that recognizes a “nonmilitarized Palestinian state.”
Friday’s land order is particularly problematic for the prospect of a two-state solution, experts say.
“If Israel confiscates land around Jerusalem, all the way to the Dead Sea, there will be no future for a Palestinian capital in East Jerusalem,” said Hamza Zubiedat, a land rights activist for the Ramallah-based Ma’an Development Center. “This is where a Palestinian capital was supposed to be located, according to the American and European talks.”
The land transfer will also cut across the West Bank, dividing the north and south.
“If the Israelis annex this area near Maale Adumim, it will be a catastrophe for Palestinians who live in the south,” Zubiedat said. “Palestinian traders, especially in the south, will be cut off, and it will become impossible to have any independent Palestinian ways of life.”
More than 40 percent of the West Bank is under the control of Israeli settlers, according to the Israel-based rights group B’Tselem, and more than half-a-million Jewish residents now live in the West Bank. Israel’s government has also used incentive programs to move Jewish residents into West Bank settlements, where more than 200 settlements and unofficial outposts have fractured the Palestinian territory and displaced Palestinian residents. In recent years, the Housing Ministry has offered subsidized apartments in the West Bank through a lottery system.
Palestinians have little ability to stop the land transfers. After the 1967 war, Israel issued a military order that stopped the process of land registration across the West Bank. Now families lack the paperwork to prove that they have private ownership over their land. And tax records, the only other evidence of West Bank property rights, are not accepted by Israeli authorities.
In June, the Knesset waived a long-standing legal precedent that required the prime minister and the defense minister to sign off on West Bank settlement construction at every phase. Smotrich enjoys near-total control over construction planning and approvals in the West Bank, and approved a record number of settlements in 2023.
“Israel has reached the conclusion that they could get away with this huge land grab because of the lack of international action,” said Sarit Michaeli, international advocacy lead at B’Tselem. “There have been individual economic U.S. sanctions placed on violent settlers, but the greater violence of the occupation is this colossal land theft.
Smotrich, a member of Netanyahu’s right-wing coalition, is a key leader in Israel’s settlement movement. Dahlia Scheindlin, an Israeli political analyst, called the Friday land transfer announcement by Smotrich a “provocation,” but also the continuation of his pro-settler ideological project. “He entered the government with one overriding purpose: to annex all land conquered in 1967 and extend permanent Jewish sovereignty everywhere, no matter how and when it has to happen,” Scheindlin said. “The timing and provocation ahead of Blinken’s visit is a bonus.”
The Biden administration announced sanctions on two West Bank settler outposts earlier this month, the first use of such economic restrictions on Israeli outposts. While West Bank settlements are authorized by the Israeli government, outposts are considered illegal under Israeli law.
The only way to stop this is real international pressure. Sanctions, full boycotts of business, academic and political institutions in Israel and exclusion from the international community. The theft of land and disregard for Palestinians is baked into the law and identity of the state. The kind of changes needed are of similarly massive scope to those implemented when Apartheid was overturned here - and the pressure for that will never come from within. The only way to get real international pressure is to force Biden/the US to stop protecting Israel from it. The only way to do that is to pressure Biden. The only way to do that is to disrupt Biden's/the US's ability to protect Israel from international pressure to stop their ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign through organized civil disobedience. Unfortunately, in the US, "the white moderate" would rather vote for genocide enablers than engage in the disruption necessary to force the person they support to stop aiding and abetting Israel's ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign of Palestinians. So Biden's probably going to keep aiding and abetting what his own voters see as the genocide of Palestinians and they'll all express ostensible regret if Israel finishes their campaign as a consequence of such cowardice. You're right. The way to pressure Biden is to make sure the guy who wants Israel to have a carte blanche and complete freedom to do whatever it wants to do in Gaza wins the presidency. That'll show Biden. The extra Palestinian casualties this will end up causing thank you for your enlightenment. On March 25 2024 18:33 Gorsameth wrote:
"We should show the Democrats we don't agree with Biden's Israel policy by letting a person with an even worse policy win"
Yeah I don't think you realise the point your not sending. Not sure what you two are objecting to? I was talking about people that voted for Biden and want/plan to vote for him again applying pressure through organized civil disobedience to discourage him from aiding and abetting what his own voters identify as genocide? You have a problem with that? Do you have a preferred alternative to apply pressure or are you two simply advocating relentless sycophancy in the face of genocide? There are people other then you who post in this thread. Its possible to respond to one of these other posts. Like this one On March 25 2024 15:42 pmp10 wrote:
I'm pretty sure that Biden is beyond changing on Gaza.
The best voter can hope is to tie Biden defeat to his Israel policy.
Gives them some chance that the next democratic administration will handle things differently.
You can't tie Bidens defeat to his Israel policy when the person who will have beaten him has an even worse policy. One irony being that his policy of aiding and abetting genocide would be tied to his defeat by his own supporters anyway by blaming people for not voting for him despite it. So yeah, you can. It's actually harder not to. But that doesn't make his supporters recognize their problem is their bipartisan support for genocide rather than the lack of enthusiastic support for genocide from their left flank. It seems by the 100s of posts you have made on this topic that you are certain that Biden is losing massive amounts of support for his policy work on Israel so far. Can you please provide your source? My understanding is that Israel is fairly low on most Americans list and that there is fairly similar amounts of people who want Israel to get more support as there is that want none. How many that want none are going to just not vote? And how many are going to vote for Trump who would give more support? How many would Biden lose if he cut off all support as you ask? How many of those would not vote at all and how many would vote for Trump? My understanding is that Biden from a electoral perspective would be worse off if he listened to you. Can you prove me wrong? If not maybe you need to change your argument because you have posted it over and over and you can tell it is not very compelling without any source or proof and you can tell this because you receive push back from even those who support your position. There is also no one who's mind you have changed. Perhaps sourcing your argument would help, in the US pol thread there is a rule about not making arguments in absentia. It appears that your presumed conclusion is not shared. It would help if you showed the data or at least logic behind your presumption. No arguments in absentia.
In other words, do not argue using language that presumes conclusions that not everyone might share. If you think religion is hogwash, then intelligently and deliberately point out how you have come to this conclusion. Do not simply say “religion is garbage”, for it makes you look like a presumptuous fool and it degrades the entire conversation. If every poster attempted to be less unequivocal and more expository, the world of TL would be a better place. Just as an aside, I do not believe GH is suggesting that Biden is actively losing support because of his policies on Israel. Rather, GH is pointing to Dem voters being forced to vote for genocide regardless, in an attempt to point out (as always) that the system is so fundamentally broken that even the basic value of "No genocide" is not one you can have reflected in your presidential vote this year. It isn't an argument in absentia because that wasn't the argument he was making. Less "Biden is losing support because of his policies on Israel", more "Isn't it horribly fucked that even voting for the 'good guys' involves voting for someone who actively aids and abets genocide?" + Show Spoiler +For clarity I'm paraphrasing GH's position as best I understand it, and do not intend to take that position as my own.
Aye plus ‘do more or I won’t vote for you’ is the only real leverage folks have in the short term to seek an improvement in the conditions on the ground right in the here and now.
Be it an earnest sentiment for some, or a bluff and an ultimate tick for blue for others.
I mean ultimately he is the President well, now and not some other candidate who’s not bound by previous record and actions. Biden can’t come out and go ‘as President I will…’ on this topic because of the auld adage about words and actions obviously.
Much is in flux of course, and for electability a certain needle has to be threaded as there’s something of a zero sum element in pursuing different courses. If some kind of reasonable ceasefire can be negotiated, quicker the better that’ll probably help in his favour. There’s nothing he can do that will assuage both people who are extremely pro-Palestine and pro-Israel of course, but delivering a quick and meaningful ceasefire that doesn’t skew too much in terms of concessions is probably ‘good enough’.
Of course there are plenty of folks out there who really don’t care that much about the topic either. Not news to anyone I imagine but perhaps does occasionally bear repeating
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Hamas has rejected the latest Ceasefire offer. The 400 prisoners for 40 hostages deal, so this basically sounds like there no hostages left alive at this point. Or that there are potential female hostages that are now visibly pregnant at this point.
A message published on Hamas's official Telegram channel read, "The Hamas movement informed the mediator brothers a short while ago that the movement is adhering to its position and vision that it presented on March 14.
"The occupation’s response did not respond to any of the basic demands of our people and our resistance: (a comprehensive ceasefire, withdrawal from the Gaza Strip, the return of the displaced, and a real exchange of prisoners)," it continued.
"Accordingly, the movement reiterates that Netanyahu and his extremist government bear full responsibility for thwarting all negotiation efforts and obstructing reaching an agreement so far," it concluded.
On Tuesday, Reuters reported that a small Mossad contingent would return to Israel for further consultations on the talks.
Source
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Northern Ireland26236 Posts
I doubt pregnant hostages is any kind of sticking point. They may exist, as horrendous as the implications of that are but if that is the case does anyone really think Hamas’ religious ideology would preclude them changing that status?
They were quite happy to rape non-Muslims, abortion is hardly something beyond the pale.
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The moment the press were to catch an image of a pregnant Israeli hostage is the moment all leverage Hamas has on the world stage would be lost. All of it in a split second. Even Qatar would be screwed.
Granted Hamas doesn't care how many civilians die, and cannot say where or how many hostages are still alive or what their conditions are. But they do know minutes after a bomb hits how many civilians died after an IDF strike. Optics. All that goes out the window if said scenario were to play out, it would be better for Hamas, darkly, if the hostages were all dead.
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Northern Ireland26236 Posts
On March 26 2024 23:55 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
The moment the press were to catch an image of a pregnant Israeli hostage is the moment all leverage Hamas has on the world stage would be lost. All of it in a split second. Even Qatar would be screwed.
Granted Hamas doesn't care how many civilians die, and cannot say where or how many hostages are still alive or what their conditions are. But they do know minutes after a bomb hits how many civilians died after an IDF strike. Optics. All that goes out the window if said scenario were to play out, it would be better for Hamas, darkly, if the hostages were all dead.
I mean a few pregnant hostages aren’t good optics and are morally reprehensible but they’re hardly going to outweigh tens of thousands of civilian deaths and widespread infrastructural destruction if we’re talking public sentiment.
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The main points of contention are Israel's administration rejecting a complete withdrawal and Hamas wanting to stay in power. I'm not convinced that the hostages are at the core of it.
Israel's administration is rightfully confident that Hamas will lose this war eventually. Practically speaking they have no reason to take a deal that doesn't favor them.
Hamas is either delusional or they're accepting defeat at the highest possible cost. Or both.
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On March 26 2024 23:55 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
The moment the press were to catch an image of a pregnant Israeli hostage is the moment all leverage Hamas has on the world stage would be lost. All of it in a split second. Even Qatar would be screwed.
What difference would that make? The hostages are simply the people Hamas needed as negotiation chips, otherwise they would already be killed/raped/tortured like all the other victims of the oct 7 attack. The people holding the hostages are the same who bunched up and burned children alive for fun a couple of months ago.
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Northern Ireland26236 Posts
On March 27 2024 00:21 Magic Powers wrote:
The main points of contention are Israel's administration rejecting a complete withdrawal and Hamas wanting to stay in power. I'm not convinced that the hostages are at the core of it.
Israel's administration is rightfully confident that Hamas will lose this war eventually. Practically speaking they have no reason to take a deal that doesn't favor them.
Hamas is either delusional or they're accepting defeat at the highest possible cost. Or both.
Can’t disagree with any of that assessment personally.
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On March 27 2024 00:19 JimmiC wrote:
People might start to pay attention to how many of those civilians are directly killed by Hamas as well as partial blame for all the citizens they put in harms way as they continue to use hospitals, refugee camps, schools and so on as staging areas, bases and places to fight.
Hard to say, hatred for Israel runs deep and has bene promoted on the socials for a long time. This could be the straw that breaks the Camals back but I doubt it.
Say the guy which despite all evidence deflect Israel responsability of the famine and will brush off every other crimes (like child murder) committed by idf (and only idf ofc) as "that's war".
Aside from racism and religious fanatism, is there any reason from the continuous support of Israel ?
I guess I could add the case "western supremacism" but in the end that's still a racist component.
Cuz if there is a one thing which appears prevalent on israeli support is the hatred toward arab and muslim. And while palestinian supporters are always accused of antisemitism, it's weird that israeli supporters are never accused of racism while idf soldiers has on numerous occasions displayed such supremacist behavior, racist comment, open allusion to torture and so on.
This and ofc the overwhelming support of the european far right toward israel is a good indicator, every far right party enjoy this.
Meanwhile call for genocide are even relayed on mainstream media without anyone caring in the slightest.
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On March 27 2024 02:47 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2024 00:19 JimmiC wrote:
People might start to pay attention to how many of those civilians are directly killed by Hamas as well as partial blame for all the citizens they put in harms way as they continue to use hospitals, refugee camps, schools and so on as staging areas, bases and places to fight.
Hard to say, hatred for Israel runs deep and has bene promoted on the socials for a long time. This could be the straw that breaks the Camals back but I doubt it. Aside from racism and religious fanatism, is there any reason from the continuous support of Israel ? I guess I could add the case "western supremacism" but in the end that's still a racist component.
Mainstream media reliance is probably still the main one, but that is related to both racism and western supremacy.
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Northern Ireland26236 Posts
How are the far left and the far right twins exactly?
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Northern Ireland26236 Posts
Aye because you see myself or Neb stanning Russia all the time on here
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On March 26 2024 03:04 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2024 02:52 JimmiC wrote:On March 26 2024 02:25 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 26 2024 01:41 Gorsameth wrote:On March 26 2024 01:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 25 2024 02:21 Mikau wrote:On March 24 2024 04:24 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 24 2024 00:52 Ciaus237 wrote:Israel announces largest West Bank land seizure since 1993. Some key highlights, including an explanation of the title:
Israel’s far-right finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, announced the seizure of 10 square kilometers (3.8 square miles) of Palestinian territory in the West Bank on Friday. The move marks the single largest land seizure by the Israeli government since the 1993 Oslo accords, according to Peace Now, a settlement watchdog group.
As well as recent legal changes that make it easier for this to happen:
In June, the Knesset waived a long-standing legal precedent that required the prime minister and the defense minister to sign off on West Bank settlement construction at every phase. Smotrich enjoys near-total control over construction planning and approvals in the West Bank, and approved a record number of settlements in 2023.
“Israel has reached the conclusion that they could get away with this huge land grab because of the lack of international action,” said Sarit Michaeli, international advocacy lead at B’Tselem. “There have been individual economic U.S. sanctions placed on violent settlers, but the greater violence of the occupation is this colossal land theft.
Full article below. + Show Spoiler +
Israel’s far-right finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, announced the seizure of 10 square kilometers (3.8 square miles) of Palestinian territory in the West Bank on Friday. The move marks the single largest land seizure by the Israeli government since the 1993 Oslo accords, according to Peace Now, a settlement watchdog group.
“While there are those in Israel and the world who seek to undermine our right over the Judea and Samaria area and the country in general,” Smotrich said Friday, referring to the territory by its biblical name, “we are promoting settlement through hard work and in a strategic manner all over the country.”
Israeli settlements in the West Bank are considered illegal under international law. Still, Israel has used land orders like the one issued Friday to gain control over 16 percent of Palestinian-controlled lands in the West Bank. The newly seized area includes parcels in the Jordan Valley and between the settlements of Maale Adumim and Keidar.
The announcement came as Secretary of State Antony Blinken landed in Tel Aviv for talks with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu about the future of the war in Gaza. Blinken’s arrival followed meetings in Cairo with several Arab leaders, and amid calls from Democratic senators for President Biden to establish a “bold, public framework” for a two-state solution that recognizes a “nonmilitarized Palestinian state.”
Friday’s land order is particularly problematic for the prospect of a two-state solution, experts say.
“If Israel confiscates land around Jerusalem, all the way to the Dead Sea, there will be no future for a Palestinian capital in East Jerusalem,” said Hamza Zubiedat, a land rights activist for the Ramallah-based Ma’an Development Center. “This is where a Palestinian capital was supposed to be located, according to the American and European talks.”
The land transfer will also cut across the West Bank, dividing the north and south.
“If the Israelis annex this area near Maale Adumim, it will be a catastrophe for Palestinians who live in the south,” Zubiedat said. “Palestinian traders, especially in the south, will be cut off, and it will become impossible to have any independent Palestinian ways of life.”
More than 40 percent of the West Bank is under the control of Israeli settlers, according to the Israel-based rights group B’Tselem, and more than half-a-million Jewish residents now live in the West Bank. Israel’s government has also used incentive programs to move Jewish residents into West Bank settlements, where more than 200 settlements and unofficial outposts have fractured the Palestinian territory and displaced Palestinian residents. In recent years, the Housing Ministry has offered subsidized apartments in the West Bank through a lottery system.
Palestinians have little ability to stop the land transfers. After the 1967 war, Israel issued a military order that stopped the process of land registration across the West Bank. Now families lack the paperwork to prove that they have private ownership over their land. And tax records, the only other evidence of West Bank property rights, are not accepted by Israeli authorities.
In June, the Knesset waived a long-standing legal precedent that required the prime minister and the defense minister to sign off on West Bank settlement construction at every phase. Smotrich enjoys near-total control over construction planning and approvals in the West Bank, and approved a record number of settlements in 2023.
“Israel has reached the conclusion that they could get away with this huge land grab because of the lack of international action,” said Sarit Michaeli, international advocacy lead at B’Tselem. “There have been individual economic U.S. sanctions placed on violent settlers, but the greater violence of the occupation is this colossal land theft.
Smotrich, a member of Netanyahu’s right-wing coalition, is a key leader in Israel’s settlement movement. Dahlia Scheindlin, an Israeli political analyst, called the Friday land transfer announcement by Smotrich a “provocation,” but also the continuation of his pro-settler ideological project. “He entered the government with one overriding purpose: to annex all land conquered in 1967 and extend permanent Jewish sovereignty everywhere, no matter how and when it has to happen,” Scheindlin said. “The timing and provocation ahead of Blinken’s visit is a bonus.”
The Biden administration announced sanctions on two West Bank settler outposts earlier this month, the first use of such economic restrictions on Israeli outposts. While West Bank settlements are authorized by the Israeli government, outposts are considered illegal under Israeli law.
The only way to stop this is real international pressure. Sanctions, full boycotts of business, academic and political institutions in Israel and exclusion from the international community. The theft of land and disregard for Palestinians is baked into the law and identity of the state. The kind of changes needed are of similarly massive scope to those implemented when Apartheid was overturned here - and the pressure for that will never come from within. The only way to get real international pressure is to force Biden/the US to stop protecting Israel from it. The only way to do that is to pressure Biden. The only way to do that is to disrupt Biden's/the US's ability to protect Israel from international pressure to stop their ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign through organized civil disobedience. Unfortunately, in the US, "the white moderate" would rather vote for genocide enablers than engage in the disruption necessary to force the person they support to stop aiding and abetting Israel's ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign of Palestinians. So Biden's probably going to keep aiding and abetting what his own voters see as the genocide of Palestinians and they'll all express ostensible regret if Israel finishes their campaign as a consequence of such cowardice. You're right. The way to pressure Biden is to make sure the guy who wants Israel to have a carte blanche and complete freedom to do whatever it wants to do in Gaza wins the presidency. That'll show Biden. The extra Palestinian casualties this will end up causing thank you for your enlightenment. On March 25 2024 18:33 Gorsameth wrote:
"We should show the Democrats we don't agree with Biden's Israel policy by letting a person with an even worse policy win"
Yeah I don't think you realise the point your not sending. Not sure what you two are objecting to? I was talking about people that voted for Biden and want/plan to vote for him again applying pressure through organized civil disobedience to discourage him from aiding and abetting what his own voters identify as genocide? You have a problem with that? Do you have a preferred alternative to apply pressure or are you two simply advocating relentless sycophancy in the face of genocide? There are people other then you who post in this thread. Its possible to respond to one of these other posts. Like this one On March 25 2024 15:42 pmp10 wrote:
I'm pretty sure that Biden is beyond changing on Gaza.
The best voter can hope is to tie Biden defeat to his Israel policy.
Gives them some chance that the next democratic administration will handle things differently.
You can't tie Bidens defeat to his Israel policy when the person who will have beaten him has an even worse policy. One irony being that his policy of aiding and abetting genocide would be tied to his defeat by his own supporters anyway by blaming people for not voting for him despite it. So yeah, you can. It's actually harder not to. But that doesn't make his supporters recognize their problem is their bipartisan support for genocide rather than the lack of enthusiastic support for genocide from their left flank. It seems by the 100s of posts you have made on this topic that you are certain that Biden is losing massive amounts of support for his policy work on Israel so far. Can you please provide your source? My understanding is that Israel is fairly low on most Americans list and that there is fairly similar amounts of people who want Israel to get more support as there is that want none. How many that want none are going to just not vote? And how many are going to vote for Trump who would give more support? How many would Biden lose if he cut off all support as you ask? How many of those would not vote at all and how many would vote for Trump? My understanding is that Biden from a electoral perspective would be worse off if he listened to you. Can you prove me wrong? If not maybe you need to change your argument because you have posted it over and over and you can tell it is not very compelling without any source or proof and you can tell this because you receive push back from even those who support your position. There is also no one who's mind you have changed. Perhaps sourcing your argument would help, in the US pol thread there is a rule about not making arguments in absentia. It appears that your presumed conclusion is not shared. It would help if you showed the data or at least logic behind your presumption. No arguments in absentia.
In other words, do not argue using language that presumes conclusions that not everyone might share. If you think religion is hogwash, then intelligently and deliberately point out how you have come to this conclusion. Do not simply say “religion is garbage”, for it makes you look like a presumptuous fool and it degrades the entire conversation. If every poster attempted to be less unequivocal and more expository, the world of TL would be a better place. The people who care the most in America about this are Muslims and Evangelicals. Evangelicals are firmly for Trump, however Biden is hurting in Michigan (which has a huge Arab population). Per 538's data Trump has been up, with the exception of 2 polls that I can see in the last few months, by between 2-12 points in Michigan. Michigan is a swing state, one that Biden won in 2020, it going back to Trump is a big deal. Conversely I cannot think of any Dem group who Biden *loses* by changing his tune. AIPAC and by proxy Congress will be mad, but when has money ever mattered in politics
Another important swing state that Biden needs help in right now is Pennsylvania. There are a lot of Jews there who are pro-Israel who he needs to consider as well.
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