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On March 25 2024 02:21 Mikau wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2024 04:24 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 24 2024 00:52 Ciaus237 wrote:Israel announces largest West Bank land seizure since 1993. Some key highlights, including an explanation of the title:
Israel’s far-right finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, announced the seizure of 10 square kilometers (3.8 square miles) of Palestinian territory in the West Bank on Friday. The move marks the single largest land seizure by the Israeli government since the 1993 Oslo accords, according to Peace Now, a settlement watchdog group.
As well as recent legal changes that make it easier for this to happen:
In June, the Knesset waived a long-standing legal precedent that required the prime minister and the defense minister to sign off on West Bank settlement construction at every phase. Smotrich enjoys near-total control over construction planning and approvals in the West Bank, and approved a record number of settlements in 2023.
“Israel has reached the conclusion that they could get away with this huge land grab because of the lack of international action,” said Sarit Michaeli, international advocacy lead at B’Tselem. “There have been individual economic U.S. sanctions placed on violent settlers, but the greater violence of the occupation is this colossal land theft.
Full article below. + Show Spoiler +
Israel’s far-right finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, announced the seizure of 10 square kilometers (3.8 square miles) of Palestinian territory in the West Bank on Friday. The move marks the single largest land seizure by the Israeli government since the 1993 Oslo accords, according to Peace Now, a settlement watchdog group.
“While there are those in Israel and the world who seek to undermine our right over the Judea and Samaria area and the country in general,” Smotrich said Friday, referring to the territory by its biblical name, “we are promoting settlement through hard work and in a strategic manner all over the country.”
Israeli settlements in the West Bank are considered illegal under international law. Still, Israel has used land orders like the one issued Friday to gain control over 16 percent of Palestinian-controlled lands in the West Bank. The newly seized area includes parcels in the Jordan Valley and between the settlements of Maale Adumim and Keidar.
The announcement came as Secretary of State Antony Blinken landed in Tel Aviv for talks with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu about the future of the war in Gaza. Blinken’s arrival followed meetings in Cairo with several Arab leaders, and amid calls from Democratic senators for President Biden to establish a “bold, public framework” for a two-state solution that recognizes a “nonmilitarized Palestinian state.”
Friday’s land order is particularly problematic for the prospect of a two-state solution, experts say.
“If Israel confiscates land around Jerusalem, all the way to the Dead Sea, there will be no future for a Palestinian capital in East Jerusalem,” said Hamza Zubiedat, a land rights activist for the Ramallah-based Ma’an Development Center. “This is where a Palestinian capital was supposed to be located, according to the American and European talks.”
The land transfer will also cut across the West Bank, dividing the north and south.
“If the Israelis annex this area near Maale Adumim, it will be a catastrophe for Palestinians who live in the south,” Zubiedat said. “Palestinian traders, especially in the south, will be cut off, and it will become impossible to have any independent Palestinian ways of life.”
More than 40 percent of the West Bank is under the control of Israeli settlers, according to the Israel-based rights group B’Tselem, and more than half-a-million Jewish residents now live in the West Bank. Israel’s government has also used incentive programs to move Jewish residents into West Bank settlements, where more than 200 settlements and unofficial outposts have fractured the Palestinian territory and displaced Palestinian residents. In recent years, the Housing Ministry has offered subsidized apartments in the West Bank through a lottery system.
Palestinians have little ability to stop the land transfers. After the 1967 war, Israel issued a military order that stopped the process of land registration across the West Bank. Now families lack the paperwork to prove that they have private ownership over their land. And tax records, the only other evidence of West Bank property rights, are not accepted by Israeli authorities.
In June, the Knesset waived a long-standing legal precedent that required the prime minister and the defense minister to sign off on West Bank settlement construction at every phase. Smotrich enjoys near-total control over construction planning and approvals in the West Bank, and approved a record number of settlements in 2023.
“Israel has reached the conclusion that they could get away with this huge land grab because of the lack of international action,” said Sarit Michaeli, international advocacy lead at B’Tselem. “There have been individual economic U.S. sanctions placed on violent settlers, but the greater violence of the occupation is this colossal land theft.
Smotrich, a member of Netanyahu’s right-wing coalition, is a key leader in Israel’s settlement movement. Dahlia Scheindlin, an Israeli political analyst, called the Friday land transfer announcement by Smotrich a “provocation,” but also the continuation of his pro-settler ideological project. “He entered the government with one overriding purpose: to annex all land conquered in 1967 and extend permanent Jewish sovereignty everywhere, no matter how and when it has to happen,” Scheindlin said. “The timing and provocation ahead of Blinken’s visit is a bonus.”
The Biden administration announced sanctions on two West Bank settler outposts earlier this month, the first use of such economic restrictions on Israeli outposts. While West Bank settlements are authorized by the Israeli government, outposts are considered illegal under Israeli law.
The only way to stop this is real international pressure. Sanctions, full boycotts of business, academic and political institutions in Israel and exclusion from the international community. The theft of land and disregard for Palestinians is baked into the law and identity of the state. The kind of changes needed are of similarly massive scope to those implemented when Apartheid was overturned here - and the pressure for that will never come from within. The only way to get real international pressure is to force Biden/the US to stop protecting Israel from it. The only way to do that is to pressure Biden. The only way to do that is to disrupt Biden's/the US's ability to protect Israel from international pressure to stop their ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign through organized civil disobedience. Unfortunately, in the US, "the white moderate" would rather vote for genocide enablers than engage in the disruption necessary to force the person they support to stop aiding and abetting Israel's ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign of Palestinians. So Biden's probably going to keep aiding and abetting what his own voters see as the genocide of Palestinians and they'll all express ostensible regret if Israel finishes their campaign as a consequence of such cowardice. You're right. The way to pressure Biden is to make sure the guy who wants Israel to have a carte blanche and complete freedom to do whatever it wants to do in Gaza wins the presidency. That'll show Biden. The extra Palestinian casualties this will end up causing thank you for your enlightenment.
On March 25 2024 18:33 Gorsameth wrote:
"We should show the Democrats we don't agree with Biden's Israel policy by letting a person with an even worse policy win"
Yeah I don't think you realise the point your not sending.
Not sure what you two are objecting to? I was talking about people that voted for Biden and want/plan to vote for him again applying pressure through organized civil disobedience to discourage him from aiding and abetting what his own voters identify as genocide?
You have a problem with that? Do you have a preferred alternative to apply pressure or are you two simply advocating relentless sycophancy in the face of genocide?
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On March 26 2024 01:38 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2024 02:21 Mikau wrote:On March 24 2024 04:24 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 24 2024 00:52 Ciaus237 wrote:Israel announces largest West Bank land seizure since 1993. Some key highlights, including an explanation of the title:
Israel’s far-right finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, announced the seizure of 10 square kilometers (3.8 square miles) of Palestinian territory in the West Bank on Friday. The move marks the single largest land seizure by the Israeli government since the 1993 Oslo accords, according to Peace Now, a settlement watchdog group.
As well as recent legal changes that make it easier for this to happen:
In June, the Knesset waived a long-standing legal precedent that required the prime minister and the defense minister to sign off on West Bank settlement construction at every phase. Smotrich enjoys near-total control over construction planning and approvals in the West Bank, and approved a record number of settlements in 2023.
“Israel has reached the conclusion that they could get away with this huge land grab because of the lack of international action,” said Sarit Michaeli, international advocacy lead at B’Tselem. “There have been individual economic U.S. sanctions placed on violent settlers, but the greater violence of the occupation is this colossal land theft.
Full article below. + Show Spoiler +
Israel’s far-right finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, announced the seizure of 10 square kilometers (3.8 square miles) of Palestinian territory in the West Bank on Friday. The move marks the single largest land seizure by the Israeli government since the 1993 Oslo accords, according to Peace Now, a settlement watchdog group.
“While there are those in Israel and the world who seek to undermine our right over the Judea and Samaria area and the country in general,” Smotrich said Friday, referring to the territory by its biblical name, “we are promoting settlement through hard work and in a strategic manner all over the country.”
Israeli settlements in the West Bank are considered illegal under international law. Still, Israel has used land orders like the one issued Friday to gain control over 16 percent of Palestinian-controlled lands in the West Bank. The newly seized area includes parcels in the Jordan Valley and between the settlements of Maale Adumim and Keidar.
The announcement came as Secretary of State Antony Blinken landed in Tel Aviv for talks with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu about the future of the war in Gaza. Blinken’s arrival followed meetings in Cairo with several Arab leaders, and amid calls from Democratic senators for President Biden to establish a “bold, public framework” for a two-state solution that recognizes a “nonmilitarized Palestinian state.”
Friday’s land order is particularly problematic for the prospect of a two-state solution, experts say.
“If Israel confiscates land around Jerusalem, all the way to the Dead Sea, there will be no future for a Palestinian capital in East Jerusalem,” said Hamza Zubiedat, a land rights activist for the Ramallah-based Ma’an Development Center. “This is where a Palestinian capital was supposed to be located, according to the American and European talks.”
The land transfer will also cut across the West Bank, dividing the north and south.
“If the Israelis annex this area near Maale Adumim, it will be a catastrophe for Palestinians who live in the south,” Zubiedat said. “Palestinian traders, especially in the south, will be cut off, and it will become impossible to have any independent Palestinian ways of life.”
More than 40 percent of the West Bank is under the control of Israeli settlers, according to the Israel-based rights group B’Tselem, and more than half-a-million Jewish residents now live in the West Bank. Israel’s government has also used incentive programs to move Jewish residents into West Bank settlements, where more than 200 settlements and unofficial outposts have fractured the Palestinian territory and displaced Palestinian residents. In recent years, the Housing Ministry has offered subsidized apartments in the West Bank through a lottery system.
Palestinians have little ability to stop the land transfers. After the 1967 war, Israel issued a military order that stopped the process of land registration across the West Bank. Now families lack the paperwork to prove that they have private ownership over their land. And tax records, the only other evidence of West Bank property rights, are not accepted by Israeli authorities.
In June, the Knesset waived a long-standing legal precedent that required the prime minister and the defense minister to sign off on West Bank settlement construction at every phase. Smotrich enjoys near-total control over construction planning and approvals in the West Bank, and approved a record number of settlements in 2023.
“Israel has reached the conclusion that they could get away with this huge land grab because of the lack of international action,” said Sarit Michaeli, international advocacy lead at B’Tselem. “There have been individual economic U.S. sanctions placed on violent settlers, but the greater violence of the occupation is this colossal land theft.
Smotrich, a member of Netanyahu’s right-wing coalition, is a key leader in Israel’s settlement movement. Dahlia Scheindlin, an Israeli political analyst, called the Friday land transfer announcement by Smotrich a “provocation,” but also the continuation of his pro-settler ideological project. “He entered the government with one overriding purpose: to annex all land conquered in 1967 and extend permanent Jewish sovereignty everywhere, no matter how and when it has to happen,” Scheindlin said. “The timing and provocation ahead of Blinken’s visit is a bonus.”
The Biden administration announced sanctions on two West Bank settler outposts earlier this month, the first use of such economic restrictions on Israeli outposts. While West Bank settlements are authorized by the Israeli government, outposts are considered illegal under Israeli law.
The only way to stop this is real international pressure. Sanctions, full boycotts of business, academic and political institutions in Israel and exclusion from the international community. The theft of land and disregard for Palestinians is baked into the law and identity of the state. The kind of changes needed are of similarly massive scope to those implemented when Apartheid was overturned here - and the pressure for that will never come from within. The only way to get real international pressure is to force Biden/the US to stop protecting Israel from it. The only way to do that is to pressure Biden. The only way to do that is to disrupt Biden's/the US's ability to protect Israel from international pressure to stop their ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign through organized civil disobedience. Unfortunately, in the US, "the white moderate" would rather vote for genocide enablers than engage in the disruption necessary to force the person they support to stop aiding and abetting Israel's ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign of Palestinians. So Biden's probably going to keep aiding and abetting what his own voters see as the genocide of Palestinians and they'll all express ostensible regret if Israel finishes their campaign as a consequence of such cowardice. You're right. The way to pressure Biden is to make sure the guy who wants Israel to have a carte blanche and complete freedom to do whatever it wants to do in Gaza wins the presidency. That'll show Biden. The extra Palestinian casualties this will end up causing thank you for your enlightenment. Show nested quote +On March 25 2024 18:33 Gorsameth wrote:
"We should show the Democrats we don't agree with Biden's Israel policy by letting a person with an even worse policy win"
Yeah I don't think you realise the point your not sending. Not sure what you two are objecting to? I was talking about people that voted for Biden and want/plan to vote for him again applying pressure through organized civil disobedience to discourage him from aiding and abetting what his own voters identify as genocide? You have a problem with that? Do you have a preferred alternative to apply pressure or are you two simply advocating relentless sycophancy in the face of genocide? There are people other then you who post in this thread. Its possible to respond to one of these other posts.
Like this one On March 25 2024 15:42 pmp10 wrote:
I'm pretty sure that Biden is beyond changing on Gaza.
The best voter can hope is to tie Biden defeat to his Israel policy.
Gives them some chance that the next democratic administration will handle things differently.
You can't tie Bidens defeat to his Israel policy when the person who will have beaten him has an even worse policy.
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On March 26 2024 01:41 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2024 01:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 25 2024 02:21 Mikau wrote:On March 24 2024 04:24 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 24 2024 00:52 Ciaus237 wrote:Israel announces largest West Bank land seizure since 1993. Some key highlights, including an explanation of the title:
Israel’s far-right finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, announced the seizure of 10 square kilometers (3.8 square miles) of Palestinian territory in the West Bank on Friday. The move marks the single largest land seizure by the Israeli government since the 1993 Oslo accords, according to Peace Now, a settlement watchdog group.
As well as recent legal changes that make it easier for this to happen:
In June, the Knesset waived a long-standing legal precedent that required the prime minister and the defense minister to sign off on West Bank settlement construction at every phase. Smotrich enjoys near-total control over construction planning and approvals in the West Bank, and approved a record number of settlements in 2023.
“Israel has reached the conclusion that they could get away with this huge land grab because of the lack of international action,” said Sarit Michaeli, international advocacy lead at B’Tselem. “There have been individual economic U.S. sanctions placed on violent settlers, but the greater violence of the occupation is this colossal land theft.
Full article below. + Show Spoiler +
Israel’s far-right finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, announced the seizure of 10 square kilometers (3.8 square miles) of Palestinian territory in the West Bank on Friday. The move marks the single largest land seizure by the Israeli government since the 1993 Oslo accords, according to Peace Now, a settlement watchdog group.
“While there are those in Israel and the world who seek to undermine our right over the Judea and Samaria area and the country in general,” Smotrich said Friday, referring to the territory by its biblical name, “we are promoting settlement through hard work and in a strategic manner all over the country.”
Israeli settlements in the West Bank are considered illegal under international law. Still, Israel has used land orders like the one issued Friday to gain control over 16 percent of Palestinian-controlled lands in the West Bank. The newly seized area includes parcels in the Jordan Valley and between the settlements of Maale Adumim and Keidar.
The announcement came as Secretary of State Antony Blinken landed in Tel Aviv for talks with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu about the future of the war in Gaza. Blinken’s arrival followed meetings in Cairo with several Arab leaders, and amid calls from Democratic senators for President Biden to establish a “bold, public framework” for a two-state solution that recognizes a “nonmilitarized Palestinian state.”
Friday’s land order is particularly problematic for the prospect of a two-state solution, experts say.
“If Israel confiscates land around Jerusalem, all the way to the Dead Sea, there will be no future for a Palestinian capital in East Jerusalem,” said Hamza Zubiedat, a land rights activist for the Ramallah-based Ma’an Development Center. “This is where a Palestinian capital was supposed to be located, according to the American and European talks.”
The land transfer will also cut across the West Bank, dividing the north and south.
“If the Israelis annex this area near Maale Adumim, it will be a catastrophe for Palestinians who live in the south,” Zubiedat said. “Palestinian traders, especially in the south, will be cut off, and it will become impossible to have any independent Palestinian ways of life.”
More than 40 percent of the West Bank is under the control of Israeli settlers, according to the Israel-based rights group B’Tselem, and more than half-a-million Jewish residents now live in the West Bank. Israel’s government has also used incentive programs to move Jewish residents into West Bank settlements, where more than 200 settlements and unofficial outposts have fractured the Palestinian territory and displaced Palestinian residents. In recent years, the Housing Ministry has offered subsidized apartments in the West Bank through a lottery system.
Palestinians have little ability to stop the land transfers. After the 1967 war, Israel issued a military order that stopped the process of land registration across the West Bank. Now families lack the paperwork to prove that they have private ownership over their land. And tax records, the only other evidence of West Bank property rights, are not accepted by Israeli authorities.
In June, the Knesset waived a long-standing legal precedent that required the prime minister and the defense minister to sign off on West Bank settlement construction at every phase. Smotrich enjoys near-total control over construction planning and approvals in the West Bank, and approved a record number of settlements in 2023.
“Israel has reached the conclusion that they could get away with this huge land grab because of the lack of international action,” said Sarit Michaeli, international advocacy lead at B’Tselem. “There have been individual economic U.S. sanctions placed on violent settlers, but the greater violence of the occupation is this colossal land theft.
Smotrich, a member of Netanyahu’s right-wing coalition, is a key leader in Israel’s settlement movement. Dahlia Scheindlin, an Israeli political analyst, called the Friday land transfer announcement by Smotrich a “provocation,” but also the continuation of his pro-settler ideological project. “He entered the government with one overriding purpose: to annex all land conquered in 1967 and extend permanent Jewish sovereignty everywhere, no matter how and when it has to happen,” Scheindlin said. “The timing and provocation ahead of Blinken’s visit is a bonus.”
The Biden administration announced sanctions on two West Bank settler outposts earlier this month, the first use of such economic restrictions on Israeli outposts. While West Bank settlements are authorized by the Israeli government, outposts are considered illegal under Israeli law.
The only way to stop this is real international pressure. Sanctions, full boycotts of business, academic and political institutions in Israel and exclusion from the international community. The theft of land and disregard for Palestinians is baked into the law and identity of the state. The kind of changes needed are of similarly massive scope to those implemented when Apartheid was overturned here - and the pressure for that will never come from within. The only way to get real international pressure is to force Biden/the US to stop protecting Israel from it. The only way to do that is to pressure Biden. The only way to do that is to disrupt Biden's/the US's ability to protect Israel from international pressure to stop their ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign through organized civil disobedience. Unfortunately, in the US, "the white moderate" would rather vote for genocide enablers than engage in the disruption necessary to force the person they support to stop aiding and abetting Israel's ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign of Palestinians. So Biden's probably going to keep aiding and abetting what his own voters see as the genocide of Palestinians and they'll all express ostensible regret if Israel finishes their campaign as a consequence of such cowardice. You're right. The way to pressure Biden is to make sure the guy who wants Israel to have a carte blanche and complete freedom to do whatever it wants to do in Gaza wins the presidency. That'll show Biden. The extra Palestinian casualties this will end up causing thank you for your enlightenment. On March 25 2024 18:33 Gorsameth wrote:
"We should show the Democrats we don't agree with Biden's Israel policy by letting a person with an even worse policy win"
Yeah I don't think you realise the point your not sending. Not sure what you two are objecting to? I was talking about people that voted for Biden and want/plan to vote for him again applying pressure through organized civil disobedience to discourage him from aiding and abetting what his own voters identify as genocide? You have a problem with that? Do you have a preferred alternative to apply pressure or are you two simply advocating relentless sycophancy in the face of genocide? There are people other then you who post in this thread. Its possible to respond to one of these other posts. Like this one Show nested quote +On March 25 2024 15:42 pmp10 wrote:
I'm pretty sure that Biden is beyond changing on Gaza.
The best voter can hope is to tie Biden defeat to his Israel policy.
Gives them some chance that the next democratic administration will handle things differently.
You can't tie Bidens defeat to his Israel policy when the person who will have beaten him has an even worse policy. One irony being that his policy of aiding and abetting genocide would be tied to his defeat by his own supporters anyway by blaming people for not voting for him despite it.
So yeah, you can. It's actually harder not to. But that doesn't make his supporters recognize their problem is their bipartisan support for genocide rather than the lack of enthusiastic support for genocide from their left flank.
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On March 26 2024 02:52 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2024 02:25 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 26 2024 01:41 Gorsameth wrote:On March 26 2024 01:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 25 2024 02:21 Mikau wrote:On March 24 2024 04:24 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 24 2024 00:52 Ciaus237 wrote:Israel announces largest West Bank land seizure since 1993. Some key highlights, including an explanation of the title:
Israel’s far-right finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, announced the seizure of 10 square kilometers (3.8 square miles) of Palestinian territory in the West Bank on Friday. The move marks the single largest land seizure by the Israeli government since the 1993 Oslo accords, according to Peace Now, a settlement watchdog group.
As well as recent legal changes that make it easier for this to happen:
In June, the Knesset waived a long-standing legal precedent that required the prime minister and the defense minister to sign off on West Bank settlement construction at every phase. Smotrich enjoys near-total control over construction planning and approvals in the West Bank, and approved a record number of settlements in 2023.
“Israel has reached the conclusion that they could get away with this huge land grab because of the lack of international action,” said Sarit Michaeli, international advocacy lead at B’Tselem. “There have been individual economic U.S. sanctions placed on violent settlers, but the greater violence of the occupation is this colossal land theft.
Full article below. + Show Spoiler +
Israel’s far-right finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, announced the seizure of 10 square kilometers (3.8 square miles) of Palestinian territory in the West Bank on Friday. The move marks the single largest land seizure by the Israeli government since the 1993 Oslo accords, according to Peace Now, a settlement watchdog group.
“While there are those in Israel and the world who seek to undermine our right over the Judea and Samaria area and the country in general,” Smotrich said Friday, referring to the territory by its biblical name, “we are promoting settlement through hard work and in a strategic manner all over the country.”
Israeli settlements in the West Bank are considered illegal under international law. Still, Israel has used land orders like the one issued Friday to gain control over 16 percent of Palestinian-controlled lands in the West Bank. The newly seized area includes parcels in the Jordan Valley and between the settlements of Maale Adumim and Keidar.
The announcement came as Secretary of State Antony Blinken landed in Tel Aviv for talks with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu about the future of the war in Gaza. Blinken’s arrival followed meetings in Cairo with several Arab leaders, and amid calls from Democratic senators for President Biden to establish a “bold, public framework” for a two-state solution that recognizes a “nonmilitarized Palestinian state.”
Friday’s land order is particularly problematic for the prospect of a two-state solution, experts say.
“If Israel confiscates land around Jerusalem, all the way to the Dead Sea, there will be no future for a Palestinian capital in East Jerusalem,” said Hamza Zubiedat, a land rights activist for the Ramallah-based Ma’an Development Center. “This is where a Palestinian capital was supposed to be located, according to the American and European talks.”
The land transfer will also cut across the West Bank, dividing the north and south.
“If the Israelis annex this area near Maale Adumim, it will be a catastrophe for Palestinians who live in the south,” Zubiedat said. “Palestinian traders, especially in the south, will be cut off, and it will become impossible to have any independent Palestinian ways of life.”
More than 40 percent of the West Bank is under the control of Israeli settlers, according to the Israel-based rights group B’Tselem, and more than half-a-million Jewish residents now live in the West Bank. Israel’s government has also used incentive programs to move Jewish residents into West Bank settlements, where more than 200 settlements and unofficial outposts have fractured the Palestinian territory and displaced Palestinian residents. In recent years, the Housing Ministry has offered subsidized apartments in the West Bank through a lottery system.
Palestinians have little ability to stop the land transfers. After the 1967 war, Israel issued a military order that stopped the process of land registration across the West Bank. Now families lack the paperwork to prove that they have private ownership over their land. And tax records, the only other evidence of West Bank property rights, are not accepted by Israeli authorities.
In June, the Knesset waived a long-standing legal precedent that required the prime minister and the defense minister to sign off on West Bank settlement construction at every phase. Smotrich enjoys near-total control over construction planning and approvals in the West Bank, and approved a record number of settlements in 2023.
“Israel has reached the conclusion that they could get away with this huge land grab because of the lack of international action,” said Sarit Michaeli, international advocacy lead at B’Tselem. “There have been individual economic U.S. sanctions placed on violent settlers, but the greater violence of the occupation is this colossal land theft.
Smotrich, a member of Netanyahu’s right-wing coalition, is a key leader in Israel’s settlement movement. Dahlia Scheindlin, an Israeli political analyst, called the Friday land transfer announcement by Smotrich a “provocation,” but also the continuation of his pro-settler ideological project. “He entered the government with one overriding purpose: to annex all land conquered in 1967 and extend permanent Jewish sovereignty everywhere, no matter how and when it has to happen,” Scheindlin said. “The timing and provocation ahead of Blinken’s visit is a bonus.”
The Biden administration announced sanctions on two West Bank settler outposts earlier this month, the first use of such economic restrictions on Israeli outposts. While West Bank settlements are authorized by the Israeli government, outposts are considered illegal under Israeli law.
The only way to stop this is real international pressure. Sanctions, full boycotts of business, academic and political institutions in Israel and exclusion from the international community. The theft of land and disregard for Palestinians is baked into the law and identity of the state. The kind of changes needed are of similarly massive scope to those implemented when Apartheid was overturned here - and the pressure for that will never come from within. The only way to get real international pressure is to force Biden/the US to stop protecting Israel from it. The only way to do that is to pressure Biden. The only way to do that is to disrupt Biden's/the US's ability to protect Israel from international pressure to stop their ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign through organized civil disobedience. Unfortunately, in the US, "the white moderate" would rather vote for genocide enablers than engage in the disruption necessary to force the person they support to stop aiding and abetting Israel's ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign of Palestinians. So Biden's probably going to keep aiding and abetting what his own voters see as the genocide of Palestinians and they'll all express ostensible regret if Israel finishes their campaign as a consequence of such cowardice. You're right. The way to pressure Biden is to make sure the guy who wants Israel to have a carte blanche and complete freedom to do whatever it wants to do in Gaza wins the presidency. That'll show Biden. The extra Palestinian casualties this will end up causing thank you for your enlightenment. On March 25 2024 18:33 Gorsameth wrote:
"We should show the Democrats we don't agree with Biden's Israel policy by letting a person with an even worse policy win"
Yeah I don't think you realise the point your not sending. Not sure what you two are objecting to? I was talking about people that voted for Biden and want/plan to vote for him again applying pressure through organized civil disobedience to discourage him from aiding and abetting what his own voters identify as genocide? You have a problem with that? Do you have a preferred alternative to apply pressure or are you two simply advocating relentless sycophancy in the face of genocide? There are people other then you who post in this thread. Its possible to respond to one of these other posts. Like this one On March 25 2024 15:42 pmp10 wrote:
I'm pretty sure that Biden is beyond changing on Gaza.
The best voter can hope is to tie Biden defeat to his Israel policy.
Gives them some chance that the next democratic administration will handle things differently.
You can't tie Bidens defeat to his Israel policy when the person who will have beaten him has an even worse policy. One irony being that his policy of aiding and abetting genocide would be tied to his defeat by his own supporters anyway by blaming people for not voting for him despite it. So yeah, you can. It's actually harder not to. But that doesn't make his supporters recognize their problem is their bipartisan support for genocide rather than the lack of enthusiastic support for genocide from their left flank. It seems by the 100s of posts you have made on this topic that you are certain that Biden is losing massive amounts of support for his policy work on Israel so far. Can you please provide your source? My understanding is that Israel is fairly low on most Americans list and that there is fairly similar amounts of people who want Israel to get more support as there is that want none. How many that want none are going to just not vote? And how many are going to vote for Trump who would give more support? How many would Biden lose if he cut off all support as you ask? How many of those would not vote at all and how many would vote for Trump? My understanding is that Biden from a electoral perspective would be worse off if he listened to you. Can you prove me wrong? If not maybe you need to change your argument because you have posted it over and over and you can tell it is not very compelling without any source or proof and you can tell this because you receive push back from even those who support your position. There is also no one who's mind you have changed. Perhaps sourcing your argument would help, in the US pol thread there is a rule about not making arguments in absentia. It appears that your presumed conclusion is not shared. It would help if you showed the data or at least logic behind your presumption. Show nested quote +No arguments in absentia.
In other words, do not argue using language that presumes conclusions that not everyone might share. If you think religion is hogwash, then intelligently and deliberately point out how you have come to this conclusion. Do not simply say “religion is garbage”, for it makes you look like a presumptuous fool and it degrades the entire conversation. If every poster attempted to be less unequivocal and more expository, the world of TL would be a better place.
The people who care the most in America about this are Muslims and Evangelicals. Evangelicals are firmly for Trump, however Biden is hurting in Michigan (which has a huge Arab population).
Per 538's data Trump has been up, with the exception of 2 polls that I can see in the last few months, by between 2-12 points in Michigan.
Michigan is a swing state, one that Biden won in 2020, it going back to Trump is a big deal.
Conversely I cannot think of any Dem group who Biden *loses* by changing his tune. AIPAC and by proxy Congress will be mad, but when has money ever mattered in politics
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In the Reuters article it's explained that the rust belt states were key during the 2020 election.
"Beyond the election battlegrounds, the war has opened a fissure in the base of Democratic Party. Biden’s winning 2020 presidential campaign was buoyed by new voters, Black activists and other progressive Democrats. Those groups flooded social media, manned phone banks and knocked on doors during the pandemic to flip Rust Belt states that Trump had won in 2016, sometimes by narrow margins."
These are some of the same states that can realistically flip back in Trump's favor. Continuing to support Israel is a high risk move by Biden.
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On March 26 2024 03:54 Magic Powers wrote:
In the Reuters article it's explained that the rust belt states were key during the 2020 election.
"Beyond the election battlegrounds, the war has opened a fissure in the base of Democratic Party. Biden’s winning 2020 presidential campaign was buoyed by new voters, Black activists and other progressive Democrats. Those groups flooded social media, manned phone banks and knocked on doors during the pandemic to flip Rust Belt states that Trump had won in 2016, sometimes by narrow margins."
These are some of the same states that can realistically flip back in Trump's favor. Continuing to support Israel is a high risk move by Biden.
Not supporting Israel is would be a high risk move by Biden. It alienates the anti-terrorist contingent of people. It gives Trump and the Republicans something to run on. They can simply say that Biden is giving in to the terrorist demands and is making America less safe. Easy win for the right wing.
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So you have an option between a guy who will support genocide and a guy who will support genocide, I'm confused, why are we talking about this here? We shouldn't be talking about it anywhere because it's one of the least interesting elections of the history of the world for people who are into politics, but especially here who cares?
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If this would be an actual genocide, the death toll by now would be easily 10 x higher.
But keep on spouting that bullshit, i'm sure anyone sane will soon believe you.
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On March 26 2024 04:16 Nebuchad wrote:
So you have an option between a guy who will support genocide and a guy who will support genocide, I'm confused, why are we talking about this here? We shouldn't be talking about it anywhere because it's one of the least interesting elections of the history of the world for people who are into politics, but especially here who cares?
It seems like you are oversimplifying to a degree though, as there are differences in the positions of Biden and Trump towards Israel. These differences may well come from elsewhere other than just Biden or Trump, but if Biden MUST draw a line at some point due to pressure from voters or democrats, that means he is automatically the lesser of two evils, and therefore there is at least some discussion to be had, no?
On March 26 2024 04:26 Velr wrote:
If this would be an actual genocide, the death toll by now would be easily 10 x higher.
But keep on spouting that bullshit, i'm sure anyone sane will soon believe you.
I would categorize Israel's continuing blocking of aid as a genocidal policy. They were ordered by the UN to allow aid in order to prevent genocide, and they have blatantly ignored it.
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Norway28691 Posts
On March 26 2024 04:16 Nebuchad wrote:
So you have an option between a guy who will support genocide and a guy who will support genocide, I'm confused, why are we talking about this here? We shouldn't be talking about it anywhere because it's one of the least interesting elections of the history of the world for people who are into politics, but especially here who cares?
I disagree wholeheartedly with this, except that I agree this thread isn't where Trump vs Biden should be discussed. That's def uspol territory.
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On March 26 2024 04:51 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2024 04:26 Jockmcplop wrote:On March 26 2024 04:16 Nebuchad wrote:
So you have an option between a guy who will support genocide and a guy who will support genocide, I'm confused, why are we talking about this here? We shouldn't be talking about it anywhere because it's one of the least interesting elections of the history of the world for people who are into politics, but especially here who cares? It seems like you are oversimplifying to a degree though, as there are differences in the positions of Biden and Trump towards Israel. These differences may well come from elsewhere other than just Biden or Trump, but if Biden MUST draw a line at some point due to pressure from voters or democrats, that means he is automatically the lesser of two evils, and therefore there is at least some discussion to be had, no? On March 26 2024 04:26 Velr wrote:
If this would be an actual genocide, the death toll by now would be easily 10 x higher.
But keep on spouting that bullshit, i'm sure anyone sane will soon believe you. I would categorize Israel's continuing blocking of aid as a genocidal policy. They were ordered by the UN to allow aid in order to prevent genocide, and they have blatantly ignored it. It really comes down to intent. If they are blocking it to kill everyone, that is genocide. If they are blocking it to stop weapons and so on from reaching Hamas then it is not, even if a bunch of people die. It sounds callous I know, but that is how it works and why it is hard to prove. It was also intentional to make it a high bar. Which actually makes some sense with how often the term is thrown around now a days in a world where the clicks get paid and the more edgy the more outrage the more clicks. If Israel keeps finding big weapons hauls smuggled in with the aid it justifies their actions. Not in the court of public opinion of course, but in the court of law.
Fine, I can accept this, but the burden is 100% on Israel to provide actual proof that they have found big weapons hauls other than their word.
They have proven about as trustworthy as Hamas when it comes to their accusations and justifications, especially recently as this conflict has gone on.
Ultimately I'm not particularly all in on calling this war a genocide, although I do think a policy that will kill a huge proportion of the population if allowed to go on can suitably be labelled genocidal in isolation, especially if you take into account some of things the people enacting the policy have said about it (eg about Palestinians being 'animals').
Again though, its not a hill I need to die on.
No matter what you call it, its absolutely unacceptable, and now that the consequences have become crystal clear (as if they weren't already) it must stop immediately.
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On March 26 2024 04:26 Velr wrote:
If this would be an actual genocide, the death toll by now would be easily 10 x higher.
But keep on spouting that bullshit, i'm sure anyone sane will soon believe you.
When will that happen, btw? When will the sane people not believe me?
Cause I've been saying this for months, and as far as I can tell there are more people right now supporting Palestine than at any point in history, so it seems we're going along fine. Also there's an international court who said it was "plausible" that I was right, I don't think insane theories are very often "plausibly right", yes?
I think as an observer of reality, who forges their opinion on what they see in the world, you ought to reconsider this one. But that's just me, hey.
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On March 26 2024 04:58 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2024 04:51 JimmiC wrote:On March 26 2024 04:26 Jockmcplop wrote:On March 26 2024 04:16 Nebuchad wrote:
So you have an option between a guy who will support genocide and a guy who will support genocide, I'm confused, why are we talking about this here? We shouldn't be talking about it anywhere because it's one of the least interesting elections of the history of the world for people who are into politics, but especially here who cares? It seems like you are oversimplifying to a degree though, as there are differences in the positions of Biden and Trump towards Israel. These differences may well come from elsewhere other than just Biden or Trump, but if Biden MUST draw a line at some point due to pressure from voters or democrats, that means he is automatically the lesser of two evils, and therefore there is at least some discussion to be had, no? On March 26 2024 04:26 Velr wrote:
If this would be an actual genocide, the death toll by now would be easily 10 x higher.
But keep on spouting that bullshit, i'm sure anyone sane will soon believe you. I would categorize Israel's continuing blocking of aid as a genocidal policy. They were ordered by the UN to allow aid in order to prevent genocide, and they have blatantly ignored it. It really comes down to intent. If they are blocking it to kill everyone, that is genocide. If they are blocking it to stop weapons and so on from reaching Hamas then it is not, even if a bunch of people die. It sounds callous I know, but that is how it works and why it is hard to prove. It was also intentional to make it a high bar. Which actually makes some sense with how often the term is thrown around now a days in a world where the clicks get paid and the more edgy the more outrage the more clicks. If Israel keeps finding big weapons hauls smuggled in with the aid it justifies their actions. Not in the court of public opinion of course, but in the court of law. + Show Spoiler +
Fine, I can accept this, but the burden is 100% on Israel to provide actual proof that they have found big weapons hauls other than their word.
They have proven about as trustworthy as Hamas when it comes to their accusations and justifications, especially recently as this conflict has gone on.
Ultimately I'm not particularly all in on calling this war a genocide, although I do think a policy that will kill a huge proportion of the population if allowed to go on can suitably be labelled genocidal in isolation, especially if you take into account some of things the people enacting the policy have said about it (eg about Palestinians being 'animals').
Again though, its not a hill I need to die on.
No matter what you call it, its absolutely unacceptable, and now that the consequences have become crystal clear (as if they weren't already) it must stop immediately.
Just to be clear (and I think you got this), that's what my post was about, not the election.
The only way to get real international pressure is to force Biden/the US to stop protecting Israel from it. The only way to do that is to pressure Biden. The only way to do that is to disrupt Biden's/the US's ability to protect Israel from international pressure to stop their ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign through organized civil disobedience.
All the protests, disruptions, and other various acts of civil disobedience we've seen in the US (and around the world really) has at least pushed the US/Biden to back down on the vetoes for now, but it's clearly not enough.
More efforts that are more disruptive are necessary to stop whatever people want to call this unconscionable campaign by Israel and the US's/Biden's support/enabling (Germany sends a lot of weapons too) of it.
The election is somewhat of a non factor (besides the way Neb points out) in that the point is to stop it immediately, not maybe (but still probably not) after an election 7+ months from now.
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Northern Ireland25771 Posts
On March 26 2024 04:43 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2024 04:16 Nebuchad wrote:
So you have an option between a guy who will support genocide and a guy who will support genocide, I'm confused, why are we talking about this here? We shouldn't be talking about it anywhere because it's one of the least interesting elections of the history of the world for people who are into politics, but especially here who cares? I was just responding to the inaccurate presumption that keeps being repeated ad nauseum. I'd rather it not got brought up here either. But pretending like Trump and Biden would treat this situation the same is also crazy inaccurate. It is strange that there is all this Biden hate when he vetos or whatever, then when he doesn't there is also hate about Biden. My personal opinion on why this happens is the people financing and in control of most of the far left social media accounts are Russian and their interest has nothing to do with Palestinians and everything to do with Trump getting elected. So no matter the action it is just crap on Biden. This thread should be erupting with praise or at the very least give Biden a few days or weeks grace on being the first president in who knows how long to not Veto something for Israel. I base this on the research Ive done on the past on who funds these non main stream news sites, and how the far right and left align on so many things tehy really shouldn't. But it is just a theory.
Alternatively, Russia funds it is not really a suitable catch-all explanation for others having political positions that you don’t personally understand.
It depends how strongly one weights certain things, whether Biden gets some credit for some baby steps, or is one of two wholly unpalatable options.
Plus it’s not a hypothetical of course, this is a live issue and he’s actually the man in charge. A lot is still in flux and can change quite considerably in the interim.
People have their red lines, they’re not going to flip over to the person with an even worse record than you, but they’re not going to vote for you either if you cross them. And those differ greatly between various folks, indeed some don’t even really have them and will vote for whoever is more palatable, no matter how unpalatable.
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EPT
