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Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine - Page 240

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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.

Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-03-19 20:26:01
March 19 2024 20:25 GMT
#4781
lol, why are we still giving this guy money and weapons?! We all know where this is going.

"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Cerebrate1
Profile Joined October 2023
265 Posts
March 20 2024 00:53 GMT
#4782
On March 18 2024 19:32 aseq wrote:
I'm not very informed about the Israeli view on the situation but I wonder what their alternative to a 2 state solution would be in the long run? Complete extermination or assimilation (as 2nd rank citizens)? Or do they want to keep up this prison situation indefinitely? The West should definitely object to that.

Realistically, it's more a question of when is an ideal time to implement a two state solution. Now or later.

The "right now" option is pretty much off the table for most Israelis. It would essentially be rewarding Oct 7. The day of the most deaths of Jews since the Holocaust, would become a national independence day of celebration for the fledgling Palestinian State.

More importantly, on a practical level, it doesn’t make sense to do it while radicalism is so en vogue with Palestinians and their governments openly want to make more war as soon as they have time to re-arm. It would just be an enlarged Gaza with more people, resources, and in a more strategically dangerous position overlooking Israel's main population centers.

The ideal would be to put a (relatively) moderate Arab group in power for a while (like the Saudis or the Emiraties), reform things like the schools and UNRWA to not be systemically antisemitic, and in a decade or so have a legitimate partner in peace.
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria4478 Posts
March 20 2024 02:32 GMT
#4783
"Six-year-old Fadi al-Zant is acutely malnourished, his ribs protruding under leathery skin, his eyes sunken as he lays in bed at the Kamal Adwan hospital in northern Gaza, where famine is bearing down.
Fadi's spindly legs can no longer support him enough to walk."

"Fadi's condition began to deteriorate about two months ago and he was admitted to Kamal Adwan hospital, Zant said. Creon - the medicine that people with cystic fibrosis need to supplement pancreatic enzymes that help digest food - was not available. Sometimes, Fadi had diarrhoea 10 times in one night.
Before the war, the child weighed 30kg (66 lb). Now he weighs just 12kg (26 lb), his mother said."

https://www.reuters.com/default/gaza-starving-children-fill-hospital-wards-famine-looms-2024-03-19/


"Gaza's two million people are experiencing "severe levels of acute food insecurity", US Secretary of State Antony Blinken has said.

This was the first time an entire population had been so classified, he said when questioned by the BBC about conditions in the territory."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68605401


My two cents: perhaps a more personal, more human angle will convince people. Israel needs to end this war even if it comes at the cost of Hamas staying in power. The cost of continuing the war is far too big. It's been too big for far too long. Not only are Palestinians suffering, but Israel isn't winning anything either. Everyone is losing on every front.
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
pmp10
Profile Joined April 2012
3356 Posts
March 20 2024 05:37 GMT
#4784
But Israel definitely is winning.
Strengthened strategic position aside, no power (regional or global) has proved willing to restrain them.
And that's despite pretty thorough testing of limits.

Regardless of how ugly the post-war situation is, it will benefit Israel far more than one before October 7th.
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria4478 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-03-20 10:17:59
March 20 2024 10:15 GMT
#4785
On March 20 2024 14:37 pmp10 wrote:
But Israel definitely is winning.
Strengthened strategic position aside, no power (regional or global) has proved willing to restrain them.
And that's despite pretty thorough testing of limits.

Regardless of how ugly the post-war situation is, it will benefit Israel far more than one before October 7th.


That's not a consensus. Even Biden has said this is hurting Israel.

My take is that the continuation of the war only favors the Zionist agenda and literally no one else.
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
pmp10
Profile Joined April 2012
3356 Posts
March 21 2024 05:43 GMT
#4786
Of course Biden would say that, he stands to lose if his voters are unmotivated come November.
Doesn't mean he is about to enact serious policy changes.
In the end stronger Israel is good for US interests.
iPlaY.NettleS
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Australia4356 Posts
March 21 2024 11:39 GMT
#4787
On March 20 2024 19:15 Magic Powers wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2024 14:37 pmp10 wrote:
But Israel definitely is winning.
Strengthened strategic position aside, no power (regional or global) has proved willing to restrain them.
And that's despite pretty thorough testing of limits.

Regardless of how ugly the post-war situation is, it will benefit Israel far more than one before October 7th.


That's not a consensus. Even Biden has said this is hurting Israel.

My take is that the continuation of the war only favors the Zionist agenda and literally no one else.

It's also boosting US weapons manufacturers, same old story.
16 Billion in weapons for Israel, another 100 Billion in military gear for Ukraine, great for the economy.Nice one Joe.

No wonder they're trying to ban tiktok, Zoomers see through it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7PvoI6gvQs
Salazarz
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Korea (South)2591 Posts
March 21 2024 12:13 GMT
#4788
On March 20 2024 19:15 Magic Powers wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2024 14:37 pmp10 wrote:
But Israel definitely is winning.
Strengthened strategic position aside, no power (regional or global) has proved willing to restrain them.
And that's despite pretty thorough testing of limits.

Regardless of how ugly the post-war situation is, it will benefit Israel far more than one before October 7th.


That's not a consensus. Even Biden has said this is hurting Israel.

My take is that the continuation of the war only favors the Zionist agenda and literally no one else.


Eh, in what way has Israel been hurt by this? There's been absolutely zero consequences for them, they will almost certainly get away with chopping off a chunk from Gaza for a 'DMZ' which totally absolutely won't ever be settled by Israelis (wink, wink), and outside of Gaza they're getting away with even more bullshit than ever in the West Bank and nobody is noticing because whatever eyes that do care or pretend to about this stuff, are all focused on Gaza right now.
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria4478 Posts
March 21 2024 12:36 GMT
#4789
On March 21 2024 21:13 Salazarz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2024 19:15 Magic Powers wrote:
On March 20 2024 14:37 pmp10 wrote:
But Israel definitely is winning.
Strengthened strategic position aside, no power (regional or global) has proved willing to restrain them.
And that's despite pretty thorough testing of limits.

Regardless of how ugly the post-war situation is, it will benefit Israel far more than one before October 7th.


That's not a consensus. Even Biden has said this is hurting Israel.

My take is that the continuation of the war only favors the Zionist agenda and literally no one else.


Eh, in what way has Israel been hurt by this? There's been absolutely zero consequences for them, they will almost certainly get away with chopping off a chunk from Gaza for a 'DMZ' which totally absolutely won't ever be settled by Israelis (wink, wink), and outside of Gaza they're getting away with even more bullshit than ever in the West Bank and nobody is noticing because whatever eyes that do care or pretend to about this stuff, are all focused on Gaza right now.


I agree, that's basically what I meant. The Zionist agenda is to expand into the whole Palestine region. For them it's a benefit.
When I say Israel is not going to benefit from this, I'm mostly thinking of the Israeli people. A net benefit for the people can only come from improved relations. Israel is losing face on the world stage, and this is going to cost the Israeli people.
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria4478 Posts
March 21 2024 22:57 GMT
#4790
A brief summary of the impact of the war on Gaza.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-war-has-hit-gaza-strip-2024-03-21/

The conditions keep deteriorating with the food shortage threshold of 20% being crossed several times, standing at 70% right now.
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10809 Posts
March 22 2024 08:13 GMT
#4791
On March 21 2024 21:36 Magic Powers wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 21 2024 21:13 Salazarz wrote:
On March 20 2024 19:15 Magic Powers wrote:
On March 20 2024 14:37 pmp10 wrote:
But Israel definitely is winning.
Strengthened strategic position aside, no power (regional or global) has proved willing to restrain them.
And that's despite pretty thorough testing of limits.

Regardless of how ugly the post-war situation is, it will benefit Israel far more than one before October 7th.


That's not a consensus. Even Biden has said this is hurting Israel.

My take is that the continuation of the war only favors the Zionist agenda and literally no one else.


Eh, in what way has Israel been hurt by this? There's been absolutely zero consequences for them, they will almost certainly get away with chopping off a chunk from Gaza for a 'DMZ' which totally absolutely won't ever be settled by Israelis (wink, wink), and outside of Gaza they're getting away with even more bullshit than ever in the West Bank and nobody is noticing because whatever eyes that do care or pretend to about this stuff, are all focused on Gaza right now.


I agree, that's basically what I meant. The Zionist agenda is to expand into the whole Palestine region. For them it's a benefit.
When I say Israel is not going to benefit from this, I'm mostly thinking of the Israeli people. A net benefit for the people can only come from improved relations. Israel is losing face on the world stage, and this is going to cost the Israeli people.


Wanna bet 1 year after this is over no one will care anymore? Well, not more than anyone did before Oct 7th.
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria4478 Posts
March 22 2024 10:28 GMT
#4792
On March 22 2024 17:13 Velr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 21 2024 21:36 Magic Powers wrote:
On March 21 2024 21:13 Salazarz wrote:
On March 20 2024 19:15 Magic Powers wrote:
On March 20 2024 14:37 pmp10 wrote:
But Israel definitely is winning.
Strengthened strategic position aside, no power (regional or global) has proved willing to restrain them.
And that's despite pretty thorough testing of limits.

Regardless of how ugly the post-war situation is, it will benefit Israel far more than one before October 7th.


That's not a consensus. Even Biden has said this is hurting Israel.

My take is that the continuation of the war only favors the Zionist agenda and literally no one else.


Eh, in what way has Israel been hurt by this? There's been absolutely zero consequences for them, they will almost certainly get away with chopping off a chunk from Gaza for a 'DMZ' which totally absolutely won't ever be settled by Israelis (wink, wink), and outside of Gaza they're getting away with even more bullshit than ever in the West Bank and nobody is noticing because whatever eyes that do care or pretend to about this stuff, are all focused on Gaza right now.


I agree, that's basically what I meant. The Zionist agenda is to expand into the whole Palestine region. For them it's a benefit.
When I say Israel is not going to benefit from this, I'm mostly thinking of the Israeli people. A net benefit for the people can only come from improved relations. Israel is losing face on the world stage, and this is going to cost the Israeli people.


Wanna bet 1 year after this is over no one will care anymore? Well, not more than anyone did before Oct 7th.


While I do understand the pessimism, the surveys indicate a strong shift in international support. Previously the older generations were staunchly pro-Israel, but many have flipped to the other side as a result of this war. Meanwhile the youngest generation continues to be the most supportive of Palestine and the most opposite to Israel ever.
But allow me to speak for myself. I'm 37 and I defended Israel's actions until October 7 (sometimes almost blindly so). A few weeks later I decided the country wasn't worth supporting any longer.
I'm convinced this will have serious negative consequences over the coming generations. Pissing off such a large portion of the international community rarely goes unnoticed. Many Israeli Jews have family connections all around the globe, and they won't be happy about this.
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland26040 Posts
March 22 2024 10:48 GMT
#4793
Perhaps a little atypical over here, I’m not sure how reflective it is but because of a certain perceived parallels between the Irish experience under British colonialism, Israel/Palestine has as long as I can remember (and I’m 34) been a relatively prominent issue in Ireland but especially amongst Irish-identifying in Northern Ireland.

October 7th and its subsequent consequences may have galvanised extra folks into the fold that cares about the issue, but it’s a pretty consistently resonant one.

In terms of genuinely large consequences as to the conduct of this war, that remains to be seen. Even if it’s not manifesting in all that much in practical terms, I do think it’s significant, even symbolically that the US is not in unquestioning lockstep.

I think it’s possible we may see softer pushback that while not especially devastating to the state of Israel in practical terms, may strike some kind of symbolic blow akin to apartheid South Africa.

I think it depends on how things progress certainly, but I think there’s a future where Israel is kicked out of something like Eurovision, or competing in the European region in football if the war continues to be prosecuted in its current manner.

That may not happen, indeed I’d see them as unlikely to occur, but I think at the very least you’ll see those as vectors of protest.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10809 Posts
March 22 2024 12:56 GMT
#4794
On March 22 2024 19:28 Magic Powers wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 22 2024 17:13 Velr wrote:
On March 21 2024 21:36 Magic Powers wrote:
On March 21 2024 21:13 Salazarz wrote:
On March 20 2024 19:15 Magic Powers wrote:
On March 20 2024 14:37 pmp10 wrote:
But Israel definitely is winning.
Strengthened strategic position aside, no power (regional or global) has proved willing to restrain them.
And that's despite pretty thorough testing of limits.

Regardless of how ugly the post-war situation is, it will benefit Israel far more than one before October 7th.


That's not a consensus. Even Biden has said this is hurting Israel.

My take is that the continuation of the war only favors the Zionist agenda and literally no one else.


Eh, in what way has Israel been hurt by this? There's been absolutely zero consequences for them, they will almost certainly get away with chopping off a chunk from Gaza for a 'DMZ' which totally absolutely won't ever be settled by Israelis (wink, wink), and outside of Gaza they're getting away with even more bullshit than ever in the West Bank and nobody is noticing because whatever eyes that do care or pretend to about this stuff, are all focused on Gaza right now.


I agree, that's basically what I meant. The Zionist agenda is to expand into the whole Palestine region. For them it's a benefit.
When I say Israel is not going to benefit from this, I'm mostly thinking of the Israeli people. A net benefit for the people can only come from improved relations. Israel is losing face on the world stage, and this is going to cost the Israeli people.


Wanna bet 1 year after this is over no one will care anymore? Well, not more than anyone did before Oct 7th.


While I do understand the pessimism, the surveys indicate a strong shift in international support. Previously the older generations were staunchly pro-Israel, but many have flipped to the other side as a result of this war. Meanwhile the youngest generation continues to be the most supportive of Palestine and the most opposite to Israel ever.
But allow me to speak for myself. I'm 37 and I defended Israel's actions until October 7 (sometimes almost blindly so). A few weeks later I decided the country wasn't worth supporting any longer.
I'm convinced this will have serious negative consequences over the coming generations. Pissing off such a large portion of the international community rarely goes unnoticed. Many Israeli Jews have family connections all around the globe, and they won't be happy about this.



See, I was more pro Palestinian back in the day.
Well, I pretty much have decided to not care about the conflict somewhere in the 00's because its futile, i came to the conclusion that I just want this conflict to end and I don't care about how anymore. Oct 7th basically gave Israel the perfect reason to go full retard and honestly, I blame Hamas for it.
Jockmcplop
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United Kingdom9717 Posts
March 22 2024 13:34 GMT
#4795
So the UN vote for a resolution calling for immediate ceasefire is blocked by Russia and China.

At this point, you have to wonder if they are just in favour of war generally.
RIP Meatloaf <3
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 22 2024 13:44 GMT
#4796
I'm sure there will be immediate and widespread condemnation across the globe like previous times. Even protests as well.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria4478 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-03-22 14:05:29
March 22 2024 14:05 GMT
#4797
They don't oppose a ceasefire in general, they oppose a specific draft. They have their own draft that's in favor of a ceasefire.
It'd be weird for Putin to criticize Israel's invasion of Gaza and then veto every ceasefire. He may be evil, but he's not mentally ill.

Here's more information:

https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/03/1147856
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
Ciaus237
Profile Joined July 2015
South Africa286 Posts
March 23 2024 15:52 GMT
#4798
Israel announces largest West Bank land seizure since 1993.

Some key highlights, including an explanation of the title:


Israel’s far-right finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, announced the seizure of 10 square kilometers (3.8 square miles) of Palestinian territory in the West Bank on Friday. The move marks the single largest land seizure by the Israeli government since the 1993 Oslo accords, according to Peace Now, a settlement watchdog group.


As well as recent legal changes that make it easier for this to happen:


In June, the Knesset waived a long-standing legal precedent that required the prime minister and the defense minister to sign off on West Bank settlement construction at every phase. Smotrich enjoys near-total control over construction planning and approvals in the West Bank, and approved a record number of settlements in 2023.

“Israel has reached the conclusion that they could get away with this huge land grab because of the lack of international action,” said Sarit Michaeli, international advocacy lead at B’Tselem. “There have been individual economic U.S. sanctions placed on violent settlers, but the greater violence of the occupation is this colossal land theft.


Full article below.
+ Show Spoiler +

Israel’s far-right finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, announced the seizure of 10 square kilometers (3.8 square miles) of Palestinian territory in the West Bank on Friday. The move marks the single largest land seizure by the Israeli government since the 1993 Oslo accords, according to Peace Now, a settlement watchdog group.

“While there are those in Israel and the world who seek to undermine our right over the Judea and Samaria area and the country in general,” Smotrich said Friday, referring to the territory by its biblical name, “we are promoting settlement through hard work and in a strategic manner all over the country.”

Israeli settlements in the West Bank are considered illegal under international law. Still, Israel has used land orders like the one issued Friday to gain control over 16 percent of Palestinian-controlled lands in the West Bank. The newly seized area includes parcels in the Jordan Valley and between the settlements of Maale Adumim and Keidar.

The announcement came as Secretary of State Antony Blinken landed in Tel Aviv for talks with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu about the future of the war in Gaza. Blinken’s arrival followed meetings in Cairo with several Arab leaders, and amid calls from Democratic senators for President Biden to establish a “bold, public framework” for a two-state solution that recognizes a “nonmilitarized Palestinian state.”

Friday’s land order is particularly problematic for the prospect of a two-state solution, experts say.

“If Israel confiscates land around Jerusalem, all the way to the Dead Sea, there will be no future for a Palestinian capital in East Jerusalem,” said Hamza Zubiedat, a land rights activist for the Ramallah-based Ma’an Development Center. “This is where a Palestinian capital was supposed to be located, according to the American and European talks.”

The land transfer will also cut across the West Bank, dividing the north and south.

“If the Israelis annex this area near Maale Adumim, it will be a catastrophe for Palestinians who live in the south,” Zubiedat said. “Palestinian traders, especially in the south, will be cut off, and it will become impossible to have any independent Palestinian ways of life.”

More than 40 percent of the West Bank is under the control of Israeli settlers, according to the Israel-based rights group B’Tselem, and more than half-a-million Jewish residents now live in the West Bank. Israel’s government has also used incentive programs to move Jewish residents into West Bank settlements, where more than 200 settlements and unofficial outposts have fractured the Palestinian territory and displaced Palestinian residents. In recent years, the Housing Ministry has offered subsidized apartments in the West Bank through a lottery system.

Palestinians have little ability to stop the land transfers. After the 1967 war, Israel issued a military order that stopped the process of land registration across the West Bank. Now families lack the paperwork to prove that they have private ownership over their land. And tax records, the only other evidence of West Bank property rights, are not accepted by Israeli authorities.

In June, the Knesset waived a long-standing legal precedent that required the prime minister and the defense minister to sign off on West Bank settlement construction at every phase. Smotrich enjoys near-total control over construction planning and approvals in the West Bank, and approved a record number of settlements in 2023.

“Israel has reached the conclusion that they could get away with this huge land grab because of the lack of international action,” said Sarit Michaeli, international advocacy lead at B’Tselem. “There have been individual economic U.S. sanctions placed on violent settlers, but the greater violence of the occupation is this colossal land theft.

Smotrich, a member of Netanyahu’s right-wing coalition, is a key leader in Israel’s settlement movement. Dahlia Scheindlin, an Israeli political analyst, called the Friday land transfer announcement by Smotrich a “provocation,” but also the continuation of his pro-settler ideological project. “He entered the government with one overriding purpose: to annex all land conquered in 1967 and extend permanent Jewish sovereignty everywhere, no matter how and when it has to happen,” Scheindlin said. “The timing and provocation ahead of Blinken’s visit is a bonus.”

The Biden administration announced sanctions on two West Bank settler outposts earlier this month, the first use of such economic restrictions on Israeli outposts. While West Bank settlements are authorized by the Israeli government, outposts are considered illegal under Israeli law.


The only way to stop this is real international pressure. Sanctions, full boycotts of business, academic and political institutions in Israel and exclusion from the international community.
The theft of land and disregard for Palestinians is baked into the law and identity of the state. The kind of changes needed are of similarly massive scope to those implemented when Apartheid was overturned here - and the pressure for that will never come from within.
The time that we kill keeps us alive
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 23 2024 17:39 GMT
#4799
Another ceasefire proposal, was sent to Hamas.

"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
stilt
Profile Joined October 2012
France2754 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-03-23 19:52:40
March 23 2024 18:04 GMT
#4800
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskMiddleEast/comments/1bia44f/a_frenchman_in_the_israeli_military_displaying/

French israeli soldier openly talking about torturing
I guess we're gonna give him the legion d'honneur rather than a lenghty time in jail...

Another report by le Monde on torture inflicted on fatah leader marwan barghouti https://www.lemonde.fr/international/article/2024/03/21/marwan-barghouti-prisonnier-en-israel-depuis-2002-symbole-du-calvaire-carceral-des-palestiniens_6223319_3210.html
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