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On March 10 2024 19:15 Salazarz wrote: Personally, I just find it ironic that some of the biggest 'Uyghur genocide!' calls come from the same people who insist that Islam is an evil religion of violence that has no place in the modern society and / or that the solution to the conflict in Palestine would be to have Israel take over Palestine's administration and education and, to put it bluntly, teach those pesky Palestinians how to live the 'right' way.
For what it's worth, there isn't a particularly strong separatism movement in Xinjiang. There are some who push for more autonomy, but a large portion of Uyghurs seems to be quite happy to just be allowed to live their lives as part of the broader Chinese society. Whether that is the result of propaganda and cultural oppression or just young people preferring the comforts of modern-ish lifestyle to herding sheep in desert oases, I couldn't tell.
I haven't seen anyone claiming that on this thread.
There is a problem of certain actors politicizing Islam for their own (often violent) goals. (Often cherry picking verses to do so.)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't heard about the Uyghurs having any politically violent movements that are a threat to anyone's safety.
I think the whole thing started with a string of bombings but that was a long time ago.
The thing that seems (I don't really follow it) different about China is that they aren't really using the Uyghurs as political scapegoats. In general Chinese feel some cultural superiority but the government isn't blaming all the problems on the muslims (which problems? No problems in China!). And can Chinese people even talk about it on social media or read about it in the news?
It's not really hate or bigotry or stealing land, its a policy about cultural unity where any nail that sticks out gets hammered down. Xi saw the added revolt risk from different culture and had spare admin points so he clicked the cultural conversion button. Just menial evil bureaucracy at work.
I disagree with it but at the same time I do think the west has made a grave mistake in completely letting go from promoting national unity and cohesion and this is the extreme end of the same idea.
Anyway I think it's apples and oranges to Palestinians because both the fundamental goal and the process is radically different.
Aye, not to minimise it either but the hammer will be dropped on anyone who doesn’t show up to work adhering fully to the dress code. The who or the why are less pertinent factors than people adhering to that dress code.
It is, as ever coming from me a crude analogy, and China certainly isn’t my area of expertise to say it mildly. Based upon what I do know, flawed as that might be I do rather agree in the broad brush sense with your post on this.
See where you’re coming from, as someone who tends to dislike all but the most low-level nationalism, and who isn’t personally religious either. It’s less their absence, or decline I have an issue with is it’s the lack of any particular central pivot of consensus and some level of wider societal cohesion stepping up to take the place of the aforementioned.
On March 11 2024 21:27 Ryzel wrote: Question for anyone who has issues with Israel’s response to Oct. 7th or defines themselves as Pro-Palestinian:
Let’s say you magically become Bibi on Oct. 8th Freaky Friday style. You’re now finally in the best position to dictate Israel policy towards Palestine moving forward. You have influence over how everything will be done.
However, you also have responsibilities. You must maintain the security of the State of Israel, while also attempting to maintain the security of every single Israeli civilian. If these are neglected then you’ll be kicked out of power pretty damn quick, and replaced with someone who may not have your Pro-Palestinian views. Ergo if you want to maintain the power to help Palestine, you need to play ball and take your responsibilities seriously.
Unfortunately, it’s now Oct 8th and the views of your populace have radicalized. A lot are calling for vengeance against Palestinians, but the meaningful majority are both angry at your incompetence for letting this happen, and demanding that you do everything in your power to get the hostages back that are located in Gaza. Again, if you don’t address these, you’re out on your ass and you can’t use this once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to finally give Palestinians the help they need.
As a newly non-racist Pro-Palestinian Bibi (for simplicity let’s say you don’t need to worry about dealing with your still-racist politician supporters in the Likud/Knesset), how do you shape Israel’s actions/policy to be in the best interests of the Palestinian people while pacifying your radicalized populace?
EDIT - I’m not interested in what you would NOT do (e.g. Israel’s current response), because that doesn’t solve the problem presented.
Let's turn this around for a second. Let's say you magically become Sinwar, or whomever is the real boss of Hamas. You're now in the best position to dictate policy towards Israel (and in general) moving forward. You have influence over how everything will be done.
However, you also have responsibilities. Having Palestinian people forcibly relocated somewhere is not acceptable, neither is having them assimilated as second rate citizens of Israel. You need to maintain the values of Palestinian people, however shitty you might think those values are, and find a way to not only preserve Palestinian culture and territories but also turn Palestine into a truly independent, self-sufficient state.
How do you shape Palestinian actions / policy to be in the best interests of the Palestinian people, knowing full well that Israel's government isn't interested in a two-state solution and that if they can help it at all, you will never have an independent Palestinian state; all the while the world at large is content to ignore whatever is happening in the region unless something absolutely extraordinary happens?
Well that seems pretty easy compared to the Israeli perspective. Negotiate the release of the hostages and the demilitarization of Gaza; resign and invite foreign leadership from other Arab states/the UN for a predetermined time before sovereignty goes back to the Palestinians. In return, you get the borders from 1967 back and a promise for full sovereignty when sufficient time has lapsed. But you'd have to give up indiscriminately killing Jews, so that's a bummer and probably a deal breaker.
On March 11 2024 23:53 Ryzel wrote: Goodness that was fast lol
While I dislike the framing, it was an effective question to get thinking about some of the choices made over the last few months and what could / should have been different
@Ciaus - Yes obviously there’s lots of issues with the hypothetical, some you have described. However, typically when we’re judging an agent on a given decision, there’s an implicit assumption that the agent could either have A) done something else or B) nothing at all, given the pressures/motivations/constraints that agent has. If we’re going to be judging the source of Israel’s decision-making in reference to a given purpose (helping Palestinians), we need to explore what A) and B) looks like that’s valid for the decision-maker, and whether those lead to better outcomes. Again, that’s obviously difficult to do for the reasons described, but this is my best attempt. You’re free to not engage with it, or offer a better solution to this problem!
RE Israel as an agent: I think that the current structure of what Israel is, as a country, is not the kind of agent that will do the right thing. Israel is a colonial state that it half-way through its project. What it is is not the type of thing that will make morally palatable decisions. Much like my own country 30 years ago, the problem is core to the identity of the government, constitution and those voting. What Israel would need to be an agent that even could do things I don't hate is an overhaul, reconciliation, and to be strong armed into committing to a different nation identity - and that is not coming from within. It must go from a colonial state, to not that. In the process, it would lose a lot more than it would gain.
So to sort-of answer: Israel's agency is, IMO, part of the problem. Through sanctions, the state should be forced to make the decisions and changes that such an agent wouldn't do so otherwise. It's utterly fucked-in-the-head to me that much of the world seems happy for a proper Palestinian state to be a `bilateral' thing (in practice anyway - saying you recognise Palestine while still trading with an Israel that removes their sovereignty is hollow). Israel is the last entity that should have any say in Palestinian statehood.
So it isn't about what Israel should do - they wouldn't do it anyway. It's about what everyone else should do to force Israel's hand.
After Biden's recent "red line" comment and the UN's warning of imminent famine (plenty of children have already died from malnutrition and lack of water), Josep Borrell now accuses Israel of using starvation as a weapon (which would constitute a war crime).
"Starvation is being used as a war arm and when we condemned this happening in Ukraine, we have to use the same words for what is happening in Gaza."
On March 15 2024 01:59 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Well if that's the case then there is no need for US money, or military support. So cut them off. Case closed.
On March 15 2024 01:59 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Well if that's the case then there is no need for US money, or military support. So cut them off. Case closed.
waht a reasonable stance... let's keep going with it... and let's settle up on the winning of WW2 and give every nuclear weapon under US control to Israel.
more reasonably though... You must get elected to lead Israel. Their opponents are not elected. Netanyahu must behave in a responsible manner because any one can just get up and leave israel. it is not the soviet union. I usually spend about 40 days a year in Israel. I am not visting until this is over. Do you know any jews spending more time in israel than they usually do? I know none. The # of jews turning a visit to Israel into a "photo op" is skyrocketing though.
If Netanyahu acts like an idiot then a small but critical mass of Israel's small population will leave and find a place with better economic prospects. THen Netanyahu is screwed.
From this perspective... Bennett's position is reasonable.
“Why was there no security on the border of Gaza? Our government betrayed us.”
You can never trust any goverment. ever. All you can do is put yourself in a situation where you can work in multiple countries and move to the best local situation. I think this quoted person is super naive.
One wrong move by Netanyahu and the house of cards he has built will come tumbling down.
On March 15 2024 05:09 WombaT wrote: I think you severely underestimate personal connections and well, given thousands of years of history, nationalism in its myriad forms.
If not always folks’ last resort, just upping sticks and leaving doesn’t tend to be most’s first port of call either.
You're responding to JimmyJ. He thought the solution to the conflict was for Palestinians to just all move to Canada and anybody who doesn't is free to be bombed.
On March 15 2024 05:09 WombaT wrote: I think you severely underestimate personal connections and well, given thousands of years of history, nationalism in its myriad forms. If not always folks’ last resort, just upping sticks and leaving doesn’t tend to be most’s first port of call either.
You're responding to JimmyJ. He thought the solution to the conflict was for Palestinians to just all move to Canada and anybody who doesn't is free to be bombed.
an oversimplification of my response.
On March 15 2024 05:09 WombaT wrote: I think you severely underestimate personal connections and well, given thousands of years of history, nationalism in its myriad forms. If not always folks’ last resort, just upping sticks and leaving doesn’t tend to be most’s first port of call either.
the population is israel is about 7 million. it does not take many leaving to have an impact.
Being a Quebecois Jew and a student of the Pierre Elliott Trudeau and Rene Levesque school of nation building I think I'm pretty familiar with the dynamics of Nationalism.
Normally, there are 50 polls a month surveying how israelis are feeling about 50 different issues revolving around their satisfaction with the israeli state. Under the fog of war those polls have magically disappeared. Many Jews are very dissatisfied with Netanyahu. It is one thing to be unhappy because you're paying an extra $900 a year in taxes. Its another to watch your son die while the PM plays boths ends against the middle.
My paternal grandparents moved out of New York, USA to Toronto, Ontario, Canada because they didn't want their sons killed in Vietnam.
in some circles "wandering jew" is a slur. in some circles "wandering jew" is considered a stereotype. However, you wish to view it ... the viewpoint I provided in my post is common amongst jews. https://archive.jewishagency.org/jewish-community/content/24431/
It is not by chance that the myth of the wandering Jew took root among the nations: our collective story certainly justifies the motif of the restless Jew who wanders the world, searching for salvation.
Why did jews leave Montreal, Quebec? were they being slaughtered by the millions? nah, the economy in quebec slowed down somewhat as Quebecers blamed the slower economy on jews. There was zero direct violence. They learned how to speak English and left Quebec for greener pastures.
And again, I'm not talking about everyone leaving. It only takes a small % leaving. This is why all the surveys and polls that are constantly taking the temperature of every Israeli on every dumb subject have disappeared. We are living under the fog of war. Every piece of information is now propaganda.
So I'll just restate my point again : One wrong move by Netanyahu and the house of cards he has built will come tumbling down.
On March 10 2024 19:15 Salazarz wrote: Personally, I just find it ironic that some of the biggest 'Uyghur genocide!' calls come from the same people who insist that Islam is an evil religion of violence that has no place in the modern society and / or that the solution to the conflict in Palestine would be to have Israel take over Palestine's administration and education and, to put it bluntly, teach those pesky Palestinians how to live the 'right' way.
For what it's worth, there isn't a particularly strong separatism movement in Xinjiang. There are some who push for more autonomy, but a large portion of Uyghurs seems to be quite happy to just be allowed to live their lives as part of the broader Chinese society. Whether that is the result of propaganda and cultural oppression or just young people preferring the comforts of modern-ish lifestyle to herding sheep in desert oases, I couldn't tell.
I haven't seen anyone claiming that on this thread.
There is a problem of certain actors politicizing Islam for their own (often violent) goals. (Often cherry picking verses to do so.)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't heard about the Uyghurs having any politically violent movements that are a threat to anyone's safety.
I think the whole thing started with a string of bombings but that was a long time ago.
The thing that seems (I don't really follow it) different about China is that they aren't really using the Uyghurs as political scapegoats. In general Chinese feel some cultural superiority but the government isn't blaming all the problems on the muslims (which problems? No problems in China!). And can Chinese people even talk about it on social media or read about it in the news?
It's not really hate or bigotry or stealing land, its a policy about cultural unity where any nail that sticks out gets hammered down. Xi saw the added revolt risk from different culture and had spare admin points so he clicked the cultural conversion button. Just menial evil bureaucracy at work.
I disagree with it but at the same time I do think the west has made a grave mistake in completely letting go from promoting national unity and cohesion and this is the extreme end of the same idea.
Anyway I think it's apples and oranges to Palestinians because both the fundamental goal and the process is radically different.
China knows very well culture is what makes up the majority of oneself.
Main chinese ethnicity group and culture are based on Han Chinese.
China in Ming dynasty (the second last dynasty) was "conquered" by Manchu, which was ethnicity closer to Mongolia. (hence why some say Ancient China really ended at Ming dynasty) Their culture however got "converted" to Han Chinese because Mongolia/Manchu was not really the "city management" type.
I have to agree that US has gone the way there's almost no social cohesion and national unity. It's self hating 99% of the time, with a decreasing sense of national pride. Especially worse with all the new social movements that try to correct any wrong doings from hundreds of years ago. TBH it's not even the US, Australia and Europe see the same thing happening.
I don't think it's really any kind of choice. It makes a ton of sense that ideas like national pride would decrease in free societies, people will get an education and stop believing easily falsifiable absurd notions, it seems to follow quite directly from freedom of thought. The smaller portion of the population who keeps at it then feels threatened by the others and radicalise into more reactionary beliefs.
The IDF has released video of what they say shows Palestinian gunmen opening fire on Gazans that killed over 20 civilians who were waiting for aid trucks. No independent confirmation, yet.
Most Israelis support Netanyahu's plan for post-war Gaza
A majority of Israelis support Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's "day after" plan for the Gaza Strip and want to see Saudi and Emirati involvement in managing Gaza post-war, according to a new survey by the nonprofit Image of Victory organization.
Disagreement over "absolute victory" in Gaza
"A large number of Israelis recognize that it has a point, serving the objective of the conflict. But this is not the case across the board, especially among voters in older demographics. In fact, over a third (38%) of Israelis think that "absolute victory" may not even be possible, given Israel's current capabilities."
"There is also disagreement over how "absolute victory" would be achieved, and a quarter of respondents (25%) focused on the social aspects, advocating for the de-radicalization of Gaza's educational, health, religious, and welfare institutions. Slightly more respondents (26%) supported having Israelis resettle in Gaza. Still, others support having another country rehabilitate Gaza."
Maybe these surveys help clarify why Netanyahu keeps antagonizing the international community and ignoring all warnings. There appears to be sufficient internal support for his war effort and the complete destruction of all Palestinian hopes.
"At the cabinet meeting, Netanyahu had hit out at his allies, saying: "Are your memories that short? Have you so quickly forgotten October 7, the most horrific massacre of Jews since the Holocaust? Are you so quick to deny Israel the right to defend itself against the Hamas monsters?". Speaking to Fox News, Netanyahu said a Palestinian state would be "the greatest reward for terrorism in history." "
I'm not very informed about the Israeli view on the situation but I wonder what their alternative to a 2 state solution would be in the long run? Complete extermination or assimilation (as 2nd rank citizens)? Or do they want to keep up this prison situation indefinitely? The West should definitely object to that.
On March 18 2024 19:32 aseq wrote: I'm not very informed about the Israeli view on the situation but I wonder what their alternative to a 2 state solution would be in the long run? Complete extermination or assimilation (as 2nd rank citizens)? Or do they want to keep up this prison situation indefinitely? The West should definitely object to that.
Cerebrate can answer better but I imagine ideally Palestinians would just mass emigrate into Jordan/Egypt.
On March 18 2024 19:32 aseq wrote: I'm not very informed about the Israeli view on the situation but I wonder what their alternative to a 2 state solution would be in the long run? Complete extermination or assimilation (as 2nd rank citizens)? Or do they want to keep up this prison situation indefinitely? The West should definitely object to that.
On the government level basically their issue is that there are too many Arabs in the lands they want to steal, so just accepting them as citizens of Israel would create a voting block that threatens their status as a "Jewish state". This is why they need some proportion of Arabs to disappear, in any fashion, before they can claim the lands.
On March 18 2024 19:32 aseq wrote: I'm not very informed about the Israeli view on the situation but I wonder what their alternative to a 2 state solution would be in the long run? Complete extermination or assimilation (as 2nd rank citizens)? Or do they want to keep up this prison situation indefinitely? The West should definitely object to that.
On the government level basically their issue is that there are too many Arabs in the lands they want to steal, so just accepting them as citizens of Israel would create a voting block that threatens their status as a "Jewish state". This is why they need some proportion of Arabs to disappear, in any fashion, before they can claim the lands.
If you consider the citizen concerned by the right to return it will be even more.
EPT
