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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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On December 02 2023 20:29 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2023 20:20 Nebuchad wrote:On December 02 2023 19:04 Magic Powers wrote:
“Any action that is taken against innocent people — against women, children, elderly — is inhumane and it goes against the values of Islam as well. We categorically condemn this. This cannot be discussed or cannot be justified because it goes against all human values and religious values as well,” he says.
Oh the irony and complete lack of self-awareness by this man. I have nothing else to say. How so? He's an Israeli born and raised. He's not a leader of Palestinians. His allegiance is to the State of Israel. Of course he'd be expected to condemn Hamas, but not any of the Israeli extremists who are responsible for the death of so many people in this conflict.
I mean he's demanding a two state solution, and there are positions that you're not allowed to hold in you want to be part of the Knesset. I don't know this party specifically and if they ally with Likud it sounds likely that he's a bit sus, but I don't think I mind this particular statement.
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On December 02 2023 21:08 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2023 20:29 Magic Powers wrote:On December 02 2023 20:20 Nebuchad wrote:On December 02 2023 19:04 Magic Powers wrote:
“Any action that is taken against innocent people — against women, children, elderly — is inhumane and it goes against the values of Islam as well. We categorically condemn this. This cannot be discussed or cannot be justified because it goes against all human values and religious values as well,” he says.
Oh the irony and complete lack of self-awareness by this man. I have nothing else to say. How so? He's an Israeli born and raised. He's not a leader of Palestinians. His allegiance is to the State of Israel. Of course he'd be expected to condemn Hamas, but not any of the Israeli extremists who are responsible for the death of so many people in this conflict. I mean he's demanding a two state solution, and there are positions that you're not allowed to hold in you want to be part of the Knesset. I don't know this party specifically and if they ally with Likud it sounds likely that he's a bit sus, but I don't think I mind this particular statement.
I don't think what he says is ok at all. It's understandable that he has to toe the line, but that doesn't make his statements ok. Just take a look at the last paragraph.
“But the actions that the armed groups have decided to take and to use violence in order to achieve their means looking at the past have always failed. The victim of each and every one of those militant attempts have been the Palestinian people who were the ones who paid the price. In this current conflict, we look at the number of people killed we’re talking about over 15,000 Palestinians who lost their lives,” he laments.
Violence by "the armed groups" has failed? Then why is the IDF taking that route? He's not talking about the IDF, he's talking about Hamas.
The victims have been Palestinian people? Very true, the Palestinian people are being killed in the thousands by the IDF.
Abbas is deliberately using language that avoids naming the IDF as a perpetrator.
Gal Gadot is an example of this phenomenon of political pressure to silence pro-Palestinian expression. She expressed concern on IG for both Palestinian and Israeli victims. What happened next was that she got reprimanded and deleted her post. She then posted something different expressing full support of Israel, but without mentioning any victims.
It is claimed that she deleted her initial post because of pro-Palestinian backlash, but that is a very dubious and likely false claim considering her next post was purely pro-Israel.
If you're someone of status in Israel, you can't easily criticize Israel.
https://www.ynetnews.com/culture/article/sjygt00411t
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So the Arab world is telling Israel behind closed doors they want Hamas to be wiped out, Hamas tells Israel and the Public Press they cannot find the remaining Hostages and that it is not important, Israel then pulls out its negations team.
Israel’s military intensified attacks on the southern Gaza Strip on Saturday as Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said he ordered his negotiators to leave Qatar after talks to reinstate a cease-fire unraveled.
Opening what could be the next phase of its war against Hamas militants, Israel’s air force said it carried out an “extensive attack” against militants overnight in Khan Younis, a city in southern Gaza crowded with displaced people who fled prior weeks of Israeli bombing.
The air force said it carried out 400 strikes over the past day. Palestinians in the area said explosions shook buildings throughout the night, while the director of a large hospital in the city said the emergency room was flooded with casualties.
The renewed fighting came a day after talks to extend the cease-fire collapsed. The truce agreement resulted in the release of dozens of hostages held by Hamas since its Oct. 7 attack on Israel in exchange for dozens of Palestinian prisoners held by Israel. Officials from Egypt and Qatar mediating in talks between Israel and Hamas have scrambled to renew the cease-fire after the violence resumed.
Netanyahu, who faces pressure from the families of the remaining hostages held by Hamas to de-escalate and negotiate for the release of more captives, said he ordered Israeli negotiators to leave the talks after what his office described as an “impasse.”
If Qatari and Egyptian negotiators fail to reinstate the cease-fire, it will likely launch the next phase of the war in Gaza. Israeli officials have said in recent weeks that they plan to shift military operations to the southern Gaza Strip after largely routing Hamas in the north.
For the Israeli military, the battle for the southern Gaza Strip is expected to be even more complex and difficult than in the north. Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups—many of whom have fled from the north and are blocked from fleeing over the border into Egypt—will have little choice but to fight advancing Israeli forces. The south is also where most of the 1.8 million displaced Palestinians have fled in recent weeks, seeking safety from the military operation.
Israel’s offensive in Gaza has killed more than 15,000 Palestinians, most of them women and children, according to health authorities in the Hamas-run enclave. The number doesn’t distinguish between civilians and combatants. Israeli airstrikes have reduced entire apartment blocks to rubble and hit hospitals and schools. After the cease-fire ended, at least 193 people were killed by Friday night, the Gaza health ministry said.
Hamas’s Oct. 7 attack on Israel killed more than 1,200 people, most of them civilians, according to Israeli authorities. The militants killed partygoers at a music festival and residents of towns along the border with Gaza while taking some 240 people hostage.
The renewed fighting came as U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken left the region following a visit to Israel, the West Bank and the United Arab Emirates, in which he urged Israeli leaders to contain civilian casualties in the coming phase of the war.
“I made clear that after a pause, it was imperative that Israel put in place clear protections for civilians, and for sustaining humanitarian assistance going forward,” Blinken told reporters in Dubai on Friday.
Both Israel and the U.S. have rejected calls for a long-term cease-fire favored by the United Nations, Arab countries mediating between the two sides, and humanitarian groups struggling to provide enough food, safe drinking water, blankets and other essentials to people in Gaza.
Under pressure from the Biden administration and facing a global outcry about the rising death toll in Gaza, Israel has begun implementing a system that it says is designed to move civilians from place to place within the Gaza Strip while its military battles Hamas.
The system divides the Gaza Strip into hundreds of numbered sectors marked on a map. An Israeli military spokesman tweeted images of the map on Saturday with a demand for Palestinians in a swath of southern Gaza north and east of Khan Younis to move south toward Rafah. In the north, the spokesman told Palestinians to leave parts of Gaza City and neighboring Jabalia.
“For your safety, we call on you to evacuate your homes immediately,” said Avichay Adraee, the Israeli military’s Arabic-language spokesman, in a post on X, with the maps attached.
Palestinians in Gaza and U.N. officials are skeptical of the plan, saying that residents of the strip, who have intermittent access to the internet and haven’t had a regular supply of electricity since mid-October, are unlikely to see the messages in time. The Israeli military has also dropped leaflets on some areas of Gaza urging people to leave.
“This is a grim game of turkey shoot,” said Balakrishnan Rajagopal, the U.N. special rapporteur on the right to adequate housing, in a tweet. “There is no internet or electricity in southern Gaza on a regular basis. How will the population check SMS messages about coming attacks?”
The U.N. and major aid organizations rejected a previous plan by Israel to move Gazans into a narrow stretch of land in southern Gaza called al-Mawasi, saying there was simply not enough room in the area demarcated for displaced people and that civilians should be protected wherever they reside.
The challenges facing the new plan were on display on Saturday when missiles slammed into an apartment complex near Khan Younis, sending residents running across a neighboring field, according to television footage. The Israeli military didn’t immediately respond to a request for comment on the incident.
Families of Israeli hostages still held by Hamas in Gaza are concerned that the resumption of hostilities will endanger their relatives and are urging the government to continue negotiations. Protests by the families played an instrumental role in convincing Netanyahu to accept the initial cease-fire.
“I just want to make sure the negotiations continue,” said Meirav Gonen, the mother of Romi Gonen, a 23-year-old who is among the hostages still held in Gaza.
Gonen stayed up on Thursday night waiting to learn whether her daughter’s name was on a list of hostages drawn up by Hamas for release on the eighth day of the cease-fire deal.
But Israeli authorities informed them early on Friday that Hamas hadn’t produced the list of names. Hours later, Gonen watched as the cease-fire unraveled after rockets were fired out of Hamas-controlled Gaza.
The resumption of fighting in Gaza has also heightened tensions along Israel’s northern border, where there are fears of a possible second front opening up in the war with the Iranian-backed Lebanese militant group Hezbollah. The Israeli military said it launched artillery fire and an airstrike against militants in Lebanon who fired rockets into Israel overnight. Hezbollah said Saturday that one of its fighters was killed, without offering details.
The resumed military offensive in Gaza is also renewing fears of a deepened humanitarian crisis there. Israel cut off all supplies of electricity and deliveries of food and water through its crossing points with the isolated strip days after the Oct. 7 attack. The decision means that Palestinians in Gaza are dependent on aid delivered through a single crossing point with Egypt.
Aid convoys from Egypt resumed on Saturday after shutting down completely on Friday, according to the Palestine Red Crescent Society, which handles delivery of some aid on the Gaza side of the border.
Asked about the one-day shutdown in aid convoys, an official with the Israeli Prime Minister’s Office blamed Hamas for violating the truce agreement.
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Canada11321 Posts
It is claimed that she deleted her initial post because of pro-Palestinian backlash, but that is a very dubious and likely false
I don't see why you would think that. Pretty much any celebrity taking a position gets a backlash from either side as far as I can see. The Divest, Defund, etc movement and various pro-Palestine protest movements are quite strong in North America. There was a group of pro-Palestine going after our prime minister.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/pro-palestinian-marches-held-across-canada-the-world-1.7018949
Three days after the October 7 killing, generated protest crowds on the side of Palestine like this:
https://www.nationalobserver.com/2023/10/10/news/trudeau-jewish-centre-pro-palestinian-demonstrators-streets
Take a position somewhat in support of Palestine and you will get the pro-Israel crowd protesting you. Take a position somewhat in support of Israel, and you will get the pro-Palestine crowd protesting you. There isn't a softball, "I support Ukraine" position here. A Ryan Long sketch comes to mind...
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On December 03 2023 04:17 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +It is claimed that she deleted her initial post because of pro-Palestinian backlash, but that is a very dubious and likely false I don't see why you would think that. Pretty much any celebrity taking a position gets a backlash from either side as far as I can see. The Divest, Defund, etc movement and various pro-Palestine protest movements are quite strong in North America. There was a group of pro-Palestine going after our prime minister. https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/pro-palestinian-marches-held-across-canada-the-world-1.7018949Three days after the October 7 killing, generated protest crowds on the side of Palestine like this: https://www.nationalobserver.com/2023/10/10/news/trudeau-jewish-centre-pro-palestinian-demonstrators-streetsTake a position somewhat in support of Palestine and you will get the pro-Israel crowd protesting you. Take a position somewhat in support of Israel, and you will get the pro-Palestine crowd protesting you. There isn't a softball, "I support Ukraine" position here. A Ryan Long sketch comes to mind...
I explained why I think it's false. Gadot made a pro-Israel post after she deleted her previous one. That doesn't make sense if she deleted her IG post because of pro-Palestinian backlash.
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On December 02 2023 17:01 RvB wrote:Mansour Abbas calls on all Palestinian factions to demilitarize. He's the party leader of Ra'am an Arab party in Israel's Knesset and not Mahmoud Abbas the president of the PA. Still pretty significant. He also attended the screening of 7/10 in the Knesset a month ago. Show nested quote +Ra’am chairman MK Mansour Abbas becomes the first Arab party leader in Israel’s history to publicly call on the armed Palestinian factions to demilitarize and work with the Palestinian Authority in order to establish a Palestinian state through non-violent means.
“In order to move forward, the Palestinian militant groups need to throw down their arms. They need to work hand in hand with the Palestinian Authority in order to realize a national movement that will aspire for a state of Palestine in a peaceful solution alongside the state of Israel,” Abbas tells CNN in a rare interview with international media.
Abbas, whose Islamist Ra’am party was the first independent Arab-majority faction to join an Israeli coalition — the 2021-22 Naftali Bennett-Yair Lapid government — begins the interview by reiterating his condemnation of the October 7 massacres.
“Any action that is taken against innocent people — against women, children, elderly — is inhumane and it goes against the values of Islam as well. We categorically condemn this. This cannot be discussed or cannot be justified because it goes against all human values and religious values as well,” he says.
“But at the same time, we cannot forget that there is a political struggle that is happening,” Abbas continues.
“But the actions that the armed groups have decided to take and to use violence in order to achieve their means looking at the past have always failed. The victim of each and every one of those militant attempts have been the Palestinian people who were the ones who paid the price. In this current conflict, we look at the number of people killed we’re talking about over 15,000 Palestinians who lost their lives,” he laments. www.timesofisrael.com
That's great. See this is the type of leadership I was talking about. If this guy was in charge in the West Bank, there could be a two state solution with lasting peace for everyone.
On December 02 2023 21:08 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2023 20:29 Magic Powers wrote:On December 02 2023 20:20 Nebuchad wrote:On December 02 2023 19:04 Magic Powers wrote:
“Any action that is taken against innocent people — against women, children, elderly — is inhumane and it goes against the values of Islam as well. We categorically condemn this. This cannot be discussed or cannot be justified because it goes against all human values and religious values as well,” he says.
Oh the irony and complete lack of self-awareness by this man. I have nothing else to say. How so? He's an Israeli born and raised. He's not a leader of Palestinians. His allegiance is to the State of Israel. Of course he'd be expected to condemn Hamas, but not any of the Israeli extremists who are responsible for the death of so many people in this conflict. I mean he's demanding a two state solution, and there are positions that you're not allowed to hold in you want to be part of the Knesset. I don't know this party specifically and if they ally with Likud it sounds likely that he's a bit sus, but I don't think I mind this particular statement.
They don't ally with Likud. His party is part of the reason Likud lost control of the Kenesset for the first time in over a decade because they joined a rival coalition.
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On December 02 2023 05:51 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
Disengaging from the discussion for the last few days and just reading shows me what a lost cause engaging with certain people was, in the first place.
Now Magic Powers and JimmiC in particular are just continuing this spiral. It really hits different when Im not directly involved. Like legit 30+ pages always apprx. about the same stuff.
To be quite frank: I think after some point, the best outcome between some persons/their views is just to arrive at the good old "agree to disagree"..
Why is that so hard in particular in this case? Well at surface level it looks like JimmiC (and others..) are basically on the same page and agreeing. But they always make a turn when things get complicated and they are faced with something a bit more nuanced than "Hamas is evil & they are basically the sole reason for this conflict existing in the first place" (which is obv not true btw fwiw)..
Some discussions have devolved, certainly, but it definitely hasn't just been 30 pages of the same stuff. We've actually covered a number of individual sub-points within the broader topic and I feel like a number of people have developed more nuanced views because of it. If you only view the conversation as "which team should win" though, I can see how it would all look the same. I wouldn't be interested in this thread either if I painted such a broad stroke over this topic.
Also Cerebrate is a funny guy. Equates Israel stopping what they are doing (for a long time but in particular the last weeks) with them disarming. Yeah. NO ONE is advocating for that (no one sane).. but lets just.. pretend..
I really wish you would quote my posts instead of attempting to summarize what I said inaccurately. I haven't equated Israel stopping it's current war with disarming. Also, nearly every one of my posts has been in direct response to something that someone else has said. It could be that the post chain you are referring to is the one with a post that began:On November 30 2023 19:21 Magic Powers wrote:
Cerebrate keeps repeating his favorite quote. Time to dismantle it and make sure it can never be used unironically again.
"If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel."
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Magic Powers attempted to prove that the quote that includes the phrase "If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel." is unironically inaccurate. I explained why I disagreed. Meanwhile, I only brought up that quote before that to point out that I wasn't the first person in history to suggest that Palestinians could create peace through non-violence.
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On December 02 2023 03:24 Magic Powers wrote:
"The 2006 Second Lebanon War disproves your historical claim pretty cleanly."
The 2006 "Lebanon war" wasn't between Israel and Lebanon, but between Israel and Hezbollah.
"Technically, Syria has been at war with Israel since 1948 (I believe that this applies to several other countries, but couldn't readily find sources for that), since a proper truce was never made."
Technically, South Korea and North Korea are at war.
"Hezbollah and Syria fire rockets, mortars, and like every time there is unrest, which would be considered an act of war against any country in the world except Israel."
Rockets were fired from Syria, not by Syria.
Do you really want to keep arguing in this manner? I've been re-reading about Israel's conflicts over the past few decades. Have you not done any reading at all?
I'm not sure what manner of arguing I'm making that might be bothering you besides perhaps challenging your world view. Please let me know if I'm making any logical fallacies in my posts like "ad hominem attacks" or "appeals to authority." I would hate for our conversation to descend to that level 
Regarding historical accuracy, you said: On December 01 2023 18:50 Magic Powers wrote:Not a single ME country has been at war with Israel since 1982.
If you meant that statement in a purely technical sense, then it is inaccurate because Syria has technically been at war with Israel for that entire period.
If, on the other hand, you meant that statement in the more practical sense of "there have been no military engagements against Israel from a foreign group," that would be inaccurate because of the 2006 Second Lebanon War (among other things).
I don't believe that you can make your one sentence work both ways (but also neither way) at once, so it is false.
If you wanted to amend your sentence to make it accurate, you could write "There have been no significant military engagements against Israel by the officially sanctioned armies of internationally recognized countries besides for Palestine since 1982," but at that point I feel like you are tying your words into pretzels to get history to fit your pre-existing point rather than actually using history as a guide.
Besides for which, if you use this statement, you could even remove the phrase "besides for Palestine" (because even countries who recognize Palestine as a state, recognize the PA (not Hamas) as it's government, so Hamas troops wouldn't count as "Palestine's officially sanctioned army"), so you'd have to make your sentence even wordier to try to somehow include attacks by Hamas but exclude attacks by Hezbollah.
All of which got me thinking about why people have been making this type of claim at all. I can only surmise that some Iranian propaganda group was thinking about how to make Westerners side against Israel and they realized the David vs Goliath thing plays well over here. So they are trying to frame the entire conflict as being exclusively between Israel and Palestine and pretend that everyone else in the Middle East has just been sitting on their hands smiling pleasantly from the sidelines the whole time. And somehow they were successful and a lot of people have bought into it.
I'm particularly surprised that people can still be pushing this idea during this active war though. Can you really claim that "only the Palestinians are fighting Israel" while Hezbollah (a large militant group, often called a "state within a state," with likely more power than the official military of their home state Lebanon) has attacked Israel basically every day (minus the ceasefire) since Oct 7th? And the Houthis (another large militant group that basically runs half the country of Yemen) has fired numerous long range rockets and drones at Israel and has captured Israeli owned ships. Heck, everyone keeps mentioning the possibility of a "regional war" (prevented only by a massive naval fleet nearby). You must realize that that is code for "everyone in the region vs Israel by itself." The whole idea that Palestinians are the only ones fighting Israel is just silly.
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On December 03 2023 12:27 Cerebrate1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2023 17:01 RvB wrote:Mansour Abbas calls on all Palestinian factions to demilitarize. He's the party leader of Ra'am an Arab party in Israel's Knesset and not Mahmoud Abbas the president of the PA. Still pretty significant. He also attended the screening of 7/10 in the Knesset a month ago. Ra’am chairman MK Mansour Abbas becomes the first Arab party leader in Israel’s history to publicly call on the armed Palestinian factions to demilitarize and work with the Palestinian Authority in order to establish a Palestinian state through non-violent means.
“In order to move forward, the Palestinian militant groups need to throw down their arms. They need to work hand in hand with the Palestinian Authority in order to realize a national movement that will aspire for a state of Palestine in a peaceful solution alongside the state of Israel,” Abbas tells CNN in a rare interview with international media.
Abbas, whose Islamist Ra’am party was the first independent Arab-majority faction to join an Israeli coalition — the 2021-22 Naftali Bennett-Yair Lapid government — begins the interview by reiterating his condemnation of the October 7 massacres.
“Any action that is taken against innocent people — against women, children, elderly — is inhumane and it goes against the values of Islam as well. We categorically condemn this. This cannot be discussed or cannot be justified because it goes against all human values and religious values as well,” he says.
“But at the same time, we cannot forget that there is a political struggle that is happening,” Abbas continues.
“But the actions that the armed groups have decided to take and to use violence in order to achieve their means looking at the past have always failed. The victim of each and every one of those militant attempts have been the Palestinian people who were the ones who paid the price. In this current conflict, we look at the number of people killed we’re talking about over 15,000 Palestinians who lost their lives,” he laments. www.timesofisrael.com That's great. See this is the type of leadership I was talking about. If this guy was in charge in the West Bank, there could be a two state solution with lasting peace for everyone. Show nested quote +On December 02 2023 21:08 Nebuchad wrote:On December 02 2023 20:29 Magic Powers wrote:On December 02 2023 20:20 Nebuchad wrote:On December 02 2023 19:04 Magic Powers wrote:
“Any action that is taken against innocent people — against women, children, elderly — is inhumane and it goes against the values of Islam as well. We categorically condemn this. This cannot be discussed or cannot be justified because it goes against all human values and religious values as well,” he says.
Oh the irony and complete lack of self-awareness by this man. I have nothing else to say. How so? He's an Israeli born and raised. He's not a leader of Palestinians. His allegiance is to the State of Israel. Of course he'd be expected to condemn Hamas, but not any of the Israeli extremists who are responsible for the death of so many people in this conflict. I mean he's demanding a two state solution, and there are positions that you're not allowed to hold in you want to be part of the Knesset. I don't know this party specifically and if they ally with Likud it sounds likely that he's a bit sus, but I don't think I mind this particular statement. They don't ally with Likud. His party is part of the reason Likud lost control of the Kenesset for the first time in over a decade because they joined a rival coalition.
Ah my bad I read this too quickly, thanks
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Sorry that my posts tend to be clumped together as I catch up on things people messaged me about, but this is a new point/subtopic for those who are counting. On December 02 2023 04:08 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2023 03:11 Cerebrate1 wrote:On December 01 2023 18:50 Magic Powers wrote:
@Cerebrate
“It happens to be that it applies to every group of Arabs that has stopped attacking Israel. Egypt stopped attacking and there hasn't been a war with it since. So too Jordan and a couple others. You might think that Palestinians are different, but I happen to disagree.”
Israel is not oppressing any Arab group other than Palestinians. The perception of persecution may decrease their motive to play nice, but it does not prove that playing nice would be ineffective. My suggestion was merely that it could well be effective, and is certainly more so than continuing the current trajectory.
“Perhaps I should clarify my position a bit. Palestine needs to have a leader that can guarantee that if he's given a state, that state won't just make war on Israel shortly thereafter. That has never been tried.“
Not a single ME country has been at war with Israel since 1982. Hamas is the only group that’s been serious about taking up arms against Israel, and Hamas happens to live among the only Arab group that’s being oppressed by Israel.
-The 2006 Second Lebanon War disproves your historical claim pretty cleanly. -Technically, Syria has been at war with Israel since 1948 (I believe that this applies to several other countries, but couldn't readily find sources for that), since a proper truce was never made. -Hezbollah and Syria fire rockets, mortars, and like every time there is unrest, which would be considered an act of war against any country in the world except Israel. But none of what you say here disproves my point that Palestine has never had a leadership that signalled that they wouldn't just go to war with Israel the moment they got a state. Meaning if every settler was pulled out of the West Bank tomorrow and the place got full independent sovereignty, it would almost certainly wage war with Israel within the decade. I'll actually take my claim even further: until Palestine has leadership that is willing to consent to at least this amount of peace, this conflict will not be solved.
“I don't want to get into the altered definition of this term for this conflict, but regarding the quote being discussed, it actually proves the quote right. There were tons of suicide bombings, stabbings, car rammings and other terrorist actions killing many Israelis in the Intifadas before the security fences and checkpoints were set up. Those mechanisms stopped the killings. It's literally an example of how Israel needs a strong defence to not have it's people killed.”
I wonder why people would resort to terrorism to fight back against illegal settlers. It might have something to do with the settling being illegal. Hint: illegal settlements are a form of aggression.
Besides for the fact that the legality argument is a lot less cut and dry than you may think, I'm pretty sure the legality of settlements isn't really the concern of the average Palestinian. We aren't talking about lawyers of international law here. Regardless, you can rationalize terrorism all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that Israel is currently under threat by numerous armed groups in multiple countries and if it disarmed tomorrow, Israel would be wiped off the map in short order. But if all those other groups disarmed, the worst that might happen is some houses get built (and in my personal opinion, even that wouldn't happen, because Israel would seize the opportunity to have friendly neighbours for once.)
“Efficacy at war is not the same as being the one who keeps starting stuff. America was better at war than Japan in WW2. That doesn't negate the fact that Japan were the ones kicking the hornets nest at Pearl Harbor.”
Efficacy at war is not the whole reason why so many Palestinians died at the hands of the State of Israel. The most important reason is that Israel goes to war rather than attempting to create lasting peace by removing the settlements. We’re now at a point where Israel can reasonably argue that it’d be unethical to remove the settlements, and that’s because Israel has continuously chosen the war option rather than diplomatic efforts while actively supporting the growth of the settlements. It was by design that enough time would pass that peaceful options become harder and harder not only for Palestinians, but also for Israel. Israel has always ignored international calls to put an end to the settlements and to the Apartheid. That’s the main reason why so many Palestinians die. Your victim blaming doesn’t work on people like me who understand that history doesn’t exist in a vacuum.
Furthermore, America didn’t have illegal settlements in Japan. This comparison doesn’t work at all.
To be clear, this line of mine was in response to you saying 4) Israel has killed far more Palestinians than the other way around. You are now pivoting to defend your stance on who really started it, but my whole point is that "numbers killed" is not a valid proof of "who started it." Those are two separate points and aggressors have been both winners and losers of war. We can discuss other reasons you might think Israel is the aggressor, but "the Arabs get their butts handed to them every time they go to war" is not a legitimate proof that those same Arabs didn't start those wars. Well, Israel did start those wars by stealing land, I can't fathom how you can deny it. + Show Spoiler +Hell, even old Jewish tombs have Palestinians DNA, it's their land.
My father's wife is an historian, she worked on site with Israeli colleagues, they were basicly propagandist, like a Roman governor was a full brutal tyrant, then they discovered he was Jewish, suddenly he became a progressist who did well and improved the region. Or every well which had stairs became a clear sign of Jewish presence because of a Jewish ritual where you have to get immersed in water, but like, non Jewish people would not have stairs to pick water when the level is low? Btw, my father once went with his wife and he said never again, Palestinian misery was very blatant and unsufferable for him.
And on behalf of Israel, they have like 40%/45% opposition to this madness and studies show their Palestinians with Israeli citizenship are not treated worse than let's say French with North African origin or black Americans, which is not great but not absolute denial of human rights.
Private land ownership and national sovereignty are two distinct things. They often get mixed and matched in this conflict as is convenient for whatever point is being made.
If a Canadian citizen buys a house in America, that house does not become Canadian territory. It is still 100% part of the sovereign territory of the USA. Just the Canadian guy can live there and remodel the place now.
So too in reverse. If China annexes Tibet, that region may become part of the sovereign territory of China, but individual land deeds may well remain unchanged. Same people own the houses, just the government changed.
If you want to have an honest discussion about land theft, you must look at one or the other of these factors by itself.
So did Jewish immigrants steal land owned by other private owners leading up to 1948? Not that I've heard of. Certainly not in any large numbers. They purchased land that was freely sold to them. So we aren't dealing with private land theft.
So let's look at the other possibility. Did Israel unfairly annex territory that previously belonged to a Palestinian state in 1948? The answer to that is also a clear no. The whole region was ruled by the British. They gave it to the UN to dole out to whomever they wanted. The UN gave some of it to the soon-to-be State of Israel. The UN had legal authority to do this, so it wasn't theft. Plus, it was never sovereign Palestinian land to begin with, so they didn't even decrease the amount of land that Palestinians ruled.
In response to one (or both?) of these "land thefts," 5+ Arab armies invaded Israel in 1948.
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"Not that I've heard of". Cerebrate entering right-wing lunatic level of BS claiming that the land in the West bank wasn't stolen. People have already presented sufficient evidence in this thread, and apparently you prefer to just ignore the evidence. Perhaps actually read what people post and try not to forget it immediately after. The reason why you haven't heard of it is because you've either ignored the evidence that was presented in this thread or you've never made an effort to look into it yourself.
https://theconversation.com/israels-west-bank-settlements-4-questions-answered-127560
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This could end up being a bloodbath, and result in house to house fighting. As there is no way for civilians to escape.
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On December 03 2023 19:02 Magic Powers wrote:"Not that I've heard of". Cerebrate entering right-wing lunatic level of BS claiming that the land in the West bank wasn't stolen. People have already presented sufficient evidence in this thread, and apparently you prefer to just ignore the evidence. Perhaps actually read what people post and try not to forget it immediately after. The reason why you haven't heard of it is because you've either ignored the evidence that was presented in this thread or you've never made an effort to look into it yourself. https://theconversation.com/israels-west-bank-settlements-4-questions-answered-127560
My dude, if you’re going to suggest someone read what people post, you should really follow that advice yourself. The four words/numbers directly preceding your quote are “leading up to 1948?”. Your article doesn’t mention anything pre-1948, except to say that Kfar Etzion was a Jewish settlement in West Bank pre-1948.
That mistake wouldn’t bother me as much if your post wasn’t dripping with vitriol. It’s frustrating because your previous post countering Cerebrate came off as much more thought out, convincing, and worth reading, but now you’re coming off as a bull seeing red.
EDIT - Referring to this one + Show Spoiler +On December 01 2023 18:50 Magic Powers wrote:
@Cerebrate
“It happens to be that it applies to every group of Arabs that has stopped attacking Israel. Egypt stopped attacking and there hasn't been a war with it since. So too Jordan and a couple others. You might think that Palestinians are different, but I happen to disagree.”
Israel is not oppressing any Arab group other than Palestinians.
“Perhaps I should clarify my position a bit. Palestine needs to have a leader that can guarantee that if he's given a state, that state won't just make war on Israel shortly thereafter. That has never been tried.“
Not a single ME country has been at war with Israel since 1982. Hamas is the only group that’s been serious about taking up arms against Israel, and Hamas happens to live among the only Arab group that’s being oppressed by Israel.
“I don't want to get into the altered definition of this term for this conflict, but regarding the quote being discussed, it actually proves the quote right. There were tons of suicide bombings, stabbings, car rammings and other terrorist actions killing many Israelis in the Intifadas before the security fences and checkpoints were set up. Those mechanisms stopped the killings. It's literally an example of how Israel needs a strong defence to not have it's people killed.”
I wonder why people would resort to terrorism to fight back against illegal settlers. It might have something to do with the settling being illegal. Hint: illegal settlements are a form of aggression.
“Efficacy at war is not the same as being the one who keeps starting stuff. America was better at war than Japan in WW2. That doesn't negate the fact that Japan were the ones kicking the hornets nest at Pearl Harbor.”
Efficacy at war is not the whole reason why so many Palestinians died at the hands of the State of Israel. The most important reason is that Israel goes to war rather than attempting to create lasting peace by removing the settlements. We’re now at a point where Israel can reasonably argue that it’d be unethical to remove the settlements, and that’s because Israel has continuously chosen the war option rather than diplomatic efforts while actively supporting the growth of the settlements. It was by design that enough time would pass that peaceful options become harder and harder not only for Palestinians, but also for Israel. Israel has always ignored international calls to put an end to the settlements and to the Apartheid. That’s the main reason why so many Palestinians die. Your victim blaming doesn’t work on people like me who understand that history doesn’t exist in a vacuum.
Furthermore, America didn’t have illegal settlements in Japan. This comparison doesn’t work at all.
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I don't blame MP, it's harder to keep a cool head when you're defending people getting killed than when you're defending the killers. The stakes are higher, y'know.
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On December 03 2023 23:52 Nebuchad wrote:
I don't blame MP, it's harder to keep a cool head when you're defending people getting killed than when you're defending the killers. The stakes are higher, y'know.
I agree, Cerebrate should really be having a hard time keeping a cool head given that multiple people in his community that come to him for spiritual guidance have loved ones that have been killed/taken hostage in the Oct. 7th attacks, as compared to someone who is, say, armchair arguing on an online forum, but given how much higher the stakes are for him I’m very impressed and proud of his ability to argue rationally without resorting to vitriol or edgy one-liners.
Please, spare us the holier-than-thou snark.
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On December 04 2023 00:02 Ryzel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2023 23:52 Nebuchad wrote:
I don't blame MP, it's harder to keep a cool head when you're defending people getting killed than when you're defending the killers. The stakes are higher, y'know. I agree, Cerebrate should really be having a hard time keeping a cool head given that multiple people in his community that come to him for spiritual guidance have loved ones that have been killed/taken hostage in the Oct. 7th attacks, as compared to someone who is, say, armchair arguing on an online forum, but given how much higher the stakes are for him I’m very impressed and proud of his ability to argue rationally without resorting to vitriol or edgy one-liners. Please, spare us the holier-than-thou snark.
Cerebrate is arguing "rationally" in the same sense that Manifest Destiny was argued "rationally" in that it preconditions the argument on accepting the rationale of genocidal land stealing warmongers and their "laws", which clearly don't apply to the settlers terrorizing Palestinians persistently for decades.
I personally find his arguments wholly despicable.
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On December 04 2023 00:02 Ryzel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2023 23:52 Nebuchad wrote:
I don't blame MP, it's harder to keep a cool head when you're defending people getting killed than when you're defending the killers. The stakes are higher, y'know. I agree, Cerebrate should really be having a hard time keeping a cool head given that multiple people in his community that come to him for spiritual guidance have loved ones that have been killed/taken hostage in the Oct. 7th attacks, as compared to someone who is, say, armchair arguing on an online forum, but given how much higher the stakes are for him I’m very impressed and proud of his ability to argue rationally without resorting to vitriol or edgy one-liners. Please, spare us the holier-than-thou snark.
I'm not a fan of how you use this thread. And I'm definitely holier than you.
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On December 04 2023 00:03 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2023 23:52 Nebuchad wrote:
I don't blame MP, it's harder to keep a cool head when you're defending people getting killed than when you're defending the killers. The stakes are higher, y'know. I’m not sure the exact percentage but like 90% plus is him fact checking, which I guess is a form of defending. But regardless of any crime we have is western society the truth is just as important for the guilty and even more so for the accused. A case is far more compelling to the informed if it is built on facts. People getting mad at cerebrate need to take a long look in the mirror and decide why him fact checking gets them so mad. You should want your opinions to be based on facts and reality, no?
What was your opinion of the time where he fact checked Drone talking about settlements by mentioning that Bedouins had too many kids and had to be chased from lands that don't belong to them?
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EPT
