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Nebuchad
Switzerland12570 Posts
On September 30 2020 19:47 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: At least even far leftists can agree, he has united the republican party in a way that it has not been for a long time. What? No, I can't agree. The republican party is far right, it's always united behind its leader, that's super easy to do. Trump had difficulty doing it, which is a sign of weakness. | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
Btw, anyone with a brain knows that Trump thrives on white supremacy. You have to 3years of documented praises toward the movement from Trump. | ||
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dUTtrOACh
Canada2339 Posts
On September 30 2020 22:44 Erasme wrote: You can't watch that debate and think that Trump's behavior is acceptable. Biden had some nice answers, nothing unexpected. I enjoyed his laughs and remarks towards Trump. If you somehow elect this absurdity twice, you will pay a steep price for it. Btw, anyone with a brain knows that Trump thrives on white supremacy. You have to 3years of documented praises toward the movement from Trump. You can call it white supremacy if you want, but I see it more as ultra-nationalistic xenophobia, which isn't an exclusively "white" train of thought. Trump pointed out that he cancelled the racial sensitivity training because he believed it's racist and indoctrinates people into hating America. I don't disagree with that perspective. The Marxist language that seems to pervade these programmes and the shaming of [some] whites for the actions of their ancestors are imo helping Trump. Extremism is dangerous on both ends of the political spectrum, and Trump gives off the vibe that he cares more about economical prosperity than the idea of Equity, or as he and many others see it, gateway Communism. People say he didn't denounce the ideology of white supramacy during the debate. The thing is, he did. The problem was he did so before the moderator finished asking the question. He said "Sure". It was almost immediate, and he probably felt he'd done it at that point. When specifically asked to denounce Proud Boys he did not. I don't know much about that group but I did see a funny interview by a reporter of a Latino-American regional leader dude at one of their counter-protests. That doesn't gel with what I'd imagine a white supremist group would do and the reporter seemed a bit stupified at where to go with her narrative once the guy said he was Latino. EDIT: Trump's behaviour during the debate wasn't acceptable, though. Hopefully he can keep his mouth shut during his opponent's turn on round two. It was pretty silly. EDIT 2: Biden's behaviour during the debate was also a bit shonky, too. There were MANY points where he'd find the camera, ignoring at that point whatever the question was, and address the American people (urging them to go out and vote) rather than answering the question asked or facing his opponent. Not once during the debate did I see Trump do that. Biden practically did it every time he or his son Hunter wasn't being attacked by Trump or didn't have a coherent answer to something he was being asked. I feel like it's also in a way disrepectful to the debate, just in a less in-your-face way. | ||
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Arghmyliver
United States1081 Posts
On September 30 2020 23:13 dUTtrOACh wrote: You can call it white supremacy if you want, but I see it more as ultra-nationalistic xenophobia, which isn't an exclusively "white" train of thought. Trump pointed out that he cancelled the racial sensitivity training because he believed it's racist and indoctrinates people into hating America. I don't disagree with that perspective. The Marxist language that seems to pervade these programmes and the shaming of [some] whites for the actions of their ancestors are imo helping Trump. Extremism is dangerous on both ends of the political spectrum, and Trump gives off the vibe that he cares more about economical prosperity than the idea of Equity, or as he and many others see it, gateway Communism. People say he didn't denounce the ideology of white supramacy during the debate. The thing is, he did. The problem was he did so before the moderator finished asking the question. He said "Sure". It was almost immediate, and he probably felt he'd done it at that point. When specifically asked to denounce Proud Boys he did not. I don't know much about that group but I did see a funny interview by a reporter of a Latino-American regional leader dude at one of their counter-protests. That doesn't gel with what I'd imagine a white supremist group would do and the reporter seemed a bit stupified at where to go with her narrative once the guy said he was Latino. EDIT: Trump's behaviour during the debate wasn't acceptable, though. Hopefully he can keep his mouth shut during his opponent's turn on round two. It was pretty silly. The "Proud Boys" are a neo-fascist paramilitary group. The fact is, 45 won't explicitly denounce white supremacists because he knows they will vote for him. Denying the existence of racism in the US is akin to supporting it. "I don't know much about this subject but I saw a funny interview with one person" certainly entitles you to an opinion, but you should acknowledge that any opinion formed in this way is factually baseless and, on it's own, scientifically irrelevant. | ||
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4456 Posts
On September 30 2020 19:54 Biff The Understudy wrote: Ok but I am asking if you think of Trump as a strong person and leader? I am not trying to corner you, just to understand the psychology of people who support him. Of course, since he's the first western leader that has truly stood up to China. We're talking about a country that harvests organs from prisoners and practitioners of Falun Gong, To go along with the millions of Uyghur Muslims in concentration camps, re-education centers, forced sterilizations. And I'm thankful that we can talk about that here cos you sure can't on Reddit. Biden has been in politics 47 years, from my perspective the US has gone backwards substantially in that time.The United States hasn't run a trade surplus since 1975.China joined the WTO during the Bush Jr administration (2001/02) and this is when the trade deficit with China started exploding higher and China started to truly expand as an economy.Trump may not even be able to fix these issues at this time, could be too late, but at least he's trying with tarriffs, with deals, he can admit it's actually an issue. Can you see there is an issue with the trade situation and with how China operates at the very least? The human rights abuses? What did Biden do in his 47 years to try counter that? What is so hard to understand that things are seriously wrong and bringing in some guy that has been in politics 47 years won't help that.Help me out here. Would you be willing to entertain the theory that there are people that work against the best interests of their country for financial gain from other nations? It's really not a stretch. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28908 Posts
https://www.reddit.com/r/onguardforthee/comments/a4w4yy/compilation_of_calls_to_violence_from_gavin/ It's not an organization that deserves any type of defending. | ||
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dUTtrOACh
Canada2339 Posts
On September 30 2020 23:33 Arghmyliver wrote: The "Proud Boys" are a neo-fascist paramilitary group. The fact is, 45 won't explicitly denounce white supremacists because he knows they will vote for him. Denying the existence of racism in the US is akin to supporting it. "I don't know much about this subject but I saw a funny interview with one person" certainly entitles you to an opinion, but you should acknowledge that any opinion formed in this way is factually baseless and, on it's own, scientifically irrelevant. Right, but the same can be said for the burden of proof of calling someone a white-supremist, only it's even harder to prove without some incident to substantiate it. It seems that you can throw that label around pretty casually these days, and the reprecussions, even in the absence of evidence, can be damaging. It's slander. I wasn't aware of who the Proud Boys really are and that one silly interview was the only thing I ever saw related to them. They just seemed like a bunch of chads who wanted to beat the shit out of people who they didn't agree with, which is essentially the same thing happening on the other side. EDIT: How many members do they really have, and how would comdemning their violence actually make them suddenly not vote Republican? | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8201 Posts
On September 30 2020 23:36 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: Of course, since he's the first western leader that has truly stood up to China. We're talking about a country that harvests organs from prisoners and practitioners of Falun Gong, To go along with the millions of Uyghur Muslims in concentration camps, re-education centers, forced sterilizations. And I'm thankful that we can talk about that here cos you sure can't on Reddit. Biden has been in politics 47 years, from my perspective the US has gone backwards substantially in that time.The United States hasn't run a trade surplus since 1975.China joined the WTO during the Bush Jr administration (2001/02) and this is when the trade deficit with China started exploding higher and China started to truly expand as an economy.Trump may not even be able to fix these issues at this time, could be too late, but at least he's trying with tarriffs, with deals, he can admit it's actually an issue. Can you see there is an issue with the trade situation and with how China operates at the very least? The human rights abuses? What did Biden do in his 47 years to try counter that? What is so hard to understand that things are seriously wrong and bringing in some guy that has been in politics 47 years won't help that.Help me out here. Would you be willing to entertain the theory that there are people that work against the best interests of their country for financial gain from other nations? It's really not a stretch. Thanks but I am not talking about Biden and not talking about specifics of foreign policy. I am asking whether you see that man, as a person and a leader as strong. I ask because from my perspective he is the incarnation of weakness. And I wonder how people who vote for him see him as a strong person, if they do. That genuinely eludes me. | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
On September 30 2020 23:13 dUTtrOACh wrote: You can call it white supremacy if you want, but I see it more as ultra-nationalistic xenophobia, which isn't an exclusively "white" train of thought. Trump pointed out that he cancelled the racial sensitivity training because he believed it's racist and indoctrinates people into hating America. I don't disagree with that perspective. The Marxist language that seems to pervade these programmes and the shaming of [some] whites for the actions of their ancestors are imo helping Trump. Extremism is dangerous on both ends of the political spectrum, and Trump gives off the vibe that he cares more about economical prosperity than the idea of Equity, or as he and many others see it, gateway Communism. People say he didn't denounce the ideology of white supramacy during the debate. The thing is, he did. The problem was he did so before the moderator finished asking the question. He said "Sure". It was almost immediate, and he probably felt he'd done it at that point. When specifically asked to denounce Proud Boys he did not. I don't know much about that group but I did see a funny interview by a reporter of a Latino-American regional leader dude at one of their counter-protests. That doesn't gel with what I'd imagine a white supremist group would do and the reporter seemed a bit stupified at where to go with her narrative once the guy said he was Latino. EDIT: Trump's behaviour during the debate wasn't acceptable, though. Hopefully he can keep his mouth shut during his opponent's turn on round two. It was pretty silly. EDIT 2: Biden's behaviour during the debate was also a bit shonky, too. There were MANY points where he'd find the camera, ignoring at that point whatever the question was, and address the American people (urging them to go out and vote) rather than answering the question asked or facing his opponent. Not once during the debate did I see Trump do that. Biden practically did it every time he or his son Hunter wasn't being attacked by Trump or didn't have a coherent answer to something he was being asked. I feel like it's also in a way disrepectful to the debate, just in a less in-your-face way. XD 1 Pointing out racism isn't hating America, it's trying to better it. 2 Trump has been cuddling white supremacists since he tried to be elected 3 Your lack of information on the Proud Boys tell me you're not informed 4 As Chris Wallace said, they are free to use their time as they well please. So if you find Biden disrespectful when hes trying to speak to americans, in a live debate, you have a poor understanding of what a debate should be. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8201 Posts
That being said, I don't think we are too harsh with women, just that we are not nearly harsh enough with men. If a woman politician behaved like Trump, people would say she is a hysterical toddler that throws tantrum after tantrum, and they would be right. And saying "will you shut up" should not be acceptable at that level of politics, although Biden wasn't left with much of a choice. ![[image loading]](https://scontent.fosl1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/120498323_3842216325792680_2494712608951565921_o.png?_nc_cat=108&_nc_sid=8024bb&efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&_nc_ohc=x_XlRxHVNsoAX9lfgZK&_nc_ht=scontent.fosl1-1.fna&oh=6a5ee8eb8fcca863c4d7fd2a15f79af7&oe=5F9A5B9B) | ||
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Arghmyliver
United States1081 Posts
On September 30 2020 23:36 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: Of course, since he's the first western leader that has truly stood up to China. We're talking about a country that harvests organs from prisoners and practitioners of Falun Gong, To go along with the millions of Uyghur Muslims in concentration camps, re-education centers, forced sterilizations. And I'm thankful that we can talk about that here cos you sure can't on Reddit. Biden has been in politics 47 years, from my perspective the US has gone backwards substantially in that time.The United States hasn't run a trade surplus since 1975.China joined the WTO during the Bush Jr administration (2001/02) and this is when the trade deficit with China started exploding higher and China started to truly expand as an economy.Trump may not even be able to fix these issues at this time, could be too late, but at least he's trying with tarriffs, with deals, he can admit it's actually an issue. Can you see there is an issue with the trade situation and with how China operates at the very least? The human rights abuses? What did Biden do in his 47 years to try counter that? What is so hard to understand that things are seriously wrong and bringing in some guy that has been in politics 47 years won't help that.Help me out here. We've gone further backwards in terms of policy in the past 4 years under 45 than we have progressed since The Great Depression, sure. What, exactly, has 45 done to stand up to China? Besides saying "I'm tough on China" can you name any effective or relevant sanctions or measures that 45 has taken that have effectively stymied any of the things that you described? 45 is explicitly racist - racism is not a good leadership quality 45 is incomprehensibly stupid - leaders should at least be within the realm of understandable idiocy 45 is a pathological liar - leaders should generally be truthful to their people 45 is an incompetent businessman - leaders should be financially responsible 45 is a rampaging narcissist - leaders should at least be able to put up a minor resistance to flattery Biden is a kind of bumbling older man from the Democratic establishment. He is, at best, a mediocre presidential candidate. 45 is a dumpster fire. I don't want either of these people as a leader. I want an intellectual progressive to be the leader - you know, someone with a brain, and actual meaningful ideas about ways to improve the Social Contract and the relationship between people and their representation in order to more align with the individual's desires. To promote individual freedom. I don't want to sit here arguing about shit that was well and truly hammered out in the 1700s. That's why I'm going to leave the country after I vote for Biden. I'm going to assume since you are from Australia, you just don't know what's going on here. Basically, you are voting between two people, one of whom is ACTUALLY HITLER, and you are like "oh I dunno, the other guy hasn't done much in his 47 years in politics." If that's a choice you have to question.... well Australia is not on my list, soooo. Maybe that's why. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27463 Posts
On September 30 2020 23:13 dUTtrOACh wrote: You can call it white supremacy if you want, but I see it more as ultra-nationalistic xenophobia, which isn't an exclusively "white" train of thought. Trump pointed out that he cancelled the racial sensitivity training because he believed it's racist and indoctrinates people into hating America. I don't disagree with that perspective. The Marxist language that seems to pervade these programmes and the shaming of [some] whites for the actions of their ancestors are imo helping Trump. Extremism is dangerous on both ends of the political spectrum, and Trump gives off the vibe that he cares more about economical prosperity than the idea of Equity, or as he and many others see it, gateway Communism. People say he didn't denounce the ideology of white supramacy during the debate. The thing is, he did. The problem was he did so before the moderator finished asking the question. He said "Sure". It was almost immediate, and he probably felt he'd done it at that point. When specifically asked to denounce Proud Boys he did not. I don't know much about that group but I did see a funny interview by a reporter of a Latino-American regional leader dude at one of their counter-protests. That doesn't gel with what I'd imagine a white supremist group would do and the reporter seemed a bit stupified at where to go with her narrative once the guy said he was Latino. EDIT: Trump's behaviour during the debate wasn't acceptable, though. Hopefully he can keep his mouth shut during his opponent's turn on round two. It was pretty silly. EDIT 2: Biden's behaviour during the debate was also a bit shonky, too. There were MANY points where he'd find the camera, ignoring at that point whatever the question was, and address the American people (urging them to go out and vote) rather than answering the question asked or facing his opponent. Not once during the debate did I see Trump do that. Biden practically did it every time he or his son Hunter wasn't being attacked by Trump or didn't have a coherent answer to something he was being asked. I feel like it's also in a way disrepectful to the debate, just in a less in-your-face way. Where’s the shame? I literally don’t understand this. I don’t feel any shame in being white, while simultaneously I’m able to accept it’s pretty advantageous in certain ways. Likewise wealth doesn’t invalidate one’s own accomplishments, but it may mean somebody else with equivalent ones from a poor background may have had to work that much harder than you. It’s about being cognisant of these factors, not being ashamed of your own identity signifiers. On the inverse side of being white and a guy, which is kind of handy, I’m also bipolar and have medical difficulties that other people simply don’t have. I’m not envious or jealous of the accomplishments of others without that hurdle, but equally others being sensitive to mine and making adjustments helps greatly. | ||
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dUTtrOACh
Canada2339 Posts
2. How? 3. It should tell you I'm not American. 4. When I'm sitting there wanting to hear an answer to the question asked, I feel it is disrespectful to not answer and effectively spend the time for bullshit. It's a matter of perspective. | ||
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dUTtrOACh
Canada2339 Posts
On October 01 2020 00:00 WombaT wrote: Where’s the shame? I literally don’t understand this. I don’t feel any shame in being white, while simultaneously I’m able to accept it’s pretty advantageous in certain ways. Likewise wealth doesn’t invalidate one’s own accomplishments, but it may mean somebody else with equivalent ones from a poor background may have had to work that much harder than you. It’s about being cognisant of these factors, not being ashamed of your own identity signifiers. On the inverse side of being white and a guy, which is kind of handy, I’m also bipolar and have medical difficulties that other people simply don’t have. I’m not envious or jealous of the accomplishments of others without that hurdle, but equally others being sensitive to mine and making adjustments helps greatly. My point is nobody should be made to be ashamed of their ethnicity. Labelling someone as a racist piece of shit (which happens to people who have a Trump sign on their lawn or a MAGA hat) and expecting a dialogue past that is the definition of high hopes. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12570 Posts
On October 01 2020 00:06 dUTtrOACh wrote: 1. Using an unarguably bad thing as a foot in the door for indoctrinating people into socialism can be construed as hating America. Just because a person disagrees with the socialist indoctrination aspect, does not mean they are inherently racist. Communism-phobic? Perhaps. I didn't watch the whole debate so I have no idea what you guys are talking about. But as a radical socialist, I am interested, of course. Can I get some cliff notes? | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
On October 01 2020 00:06 dUTtrOACh wrote: 1. Using an unarguably bad thing as a foot in the door for indoctrinating people into socialism can be construed as hating America. Just because a person disagrees with the socialist indoctrination aspect, does not mean they are inherently racist. Communism-phobic? Perhaps. 2. How? 3. It should tell you I'm not American. 4. When I'm sitting there wanting to hear an answer to the question asked, I feel it is disrespectful to not answer and effectively spend the time for bullshit. It's a matter of perspective. You're gonna have to explain to me how you go from racism = bad to communism. The issue is not you not being american, it's you assuming you can listen to Trump while being uninformed. Trump has dozens of tweets defending white supremacists. I'm gonna take an example that happened quite literally a week ago, when he used the race horse theory to pander to his crowd, warning them that "bad people with bad genes" are coming to get them. Or "Proud Boys stand down and stand by". You want me to give it straight with no bullshit ? Anytime you listen to Trump, you need to fact check. Because he lies on and on and on. | ||
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Simberto
Germany12026 Posts
On October 01 2020 00:08 dUTtrOACh wrote: My point is nobody should be made to be ashamed of their ethnicity. Labelling someone as a racist piece of shit (which happens to people who have a Trump sign on their lawn or a MAGA hat) and expecting a dialogue past that is the definition of high hopes. Wearing a MAGA hat or having a Trump sign on your lawn are not ethnicities. | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
On October 01 2020 00:08 dUTtrOACh wrote: My point is nobody should be made to be ashamed of their ethnicity. Labelling someone as a racist piece of shit (which happens to people who have a Trump sign on their lawn or a MAGA hat) and expecting a dialogue past that is the definition of high hopes. How do you call people with a "pol pot" sign on their lawn ? If it walks and talks like a duck, chances are it's a duck. You want people to not think you're a racist piece of shit ? Stop following one, it's that easy. You're either a troll, or wildly uninformed. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27463 Posts
On October 01 2020 00:08 dUTtrOACh wrote: My point is nobody should be made to be ashamed of their ethnicity. Labelling someone as a racist piece of shit (which happens to people who have a Trump sign on their lawn or a MAGA hat) and expecting a dialogue past that is the definition of high hopes. Support a racist/racist enabler and oh noes people might think you’re a racist, how awful. The conservative framing of ideas like white privilege equivocates it with original sin, when it really isn’t the case at all. Original sin is something inalienable, inescapable, something innate. Accepting you have a societal leg up and (ideally) acting in a way to neuter that leg up for others isn’t at all conferring fault on you as a person based on your innate racial characteristics. | ||
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