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Thanks for this post, it covers a bunch of issues I have been thinking of as well.
I am 33 so probably a somewhat older gamer as well, but engaged (on and off) in online gaming communities since my teens.
In contrast with some of the opinions voice above I think racism (as well as misogyny around which more discussions have recently been going on) is systemic in the gaming industry (as it is anywhere else). The kind of discussion around the YouTube video posted by the OP makes this clear enough.
Framing racism as a just a way kids 'try to be extra nasty' trivializes this discussion and ignores the fact words are bad for a reason, racism is not just in uttering a racist word but also in (intuitively) understanding that it is a bad word. For how would a racist word be bad without racism?
I wonder then what form this systemic racism takes in videogames. In terms of Starcraft I am interested in the way the game frames race, as in Zerg/Protoss/Terran. Think of the forms of higher intelligence, Asian aesthetics, religion and enlightenment associated with the Protoss race. Sexuality, matriarchial power structures, 'nature' and beastliness associated with the Zerg race. And interestingly a kind of paradoxical, existential conflict in the Terran race. Why are these 'races' constantly at war? What kind of 'othering' is going on? And how are male / female roles divided (i.e the ex convict macho and the matriarch/queen)?
Note that this is something I absolutely not think about while gaming, the game is just too immersive. But it is a kind of background...
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Won't somebody please think of the children!!!
Wait until he plays Dota 2 and has people calling him every name in the book. Are you new to the internet? @_@
1 - there is a profanity filter if you have kids playing.
2 - there is a block button.
problem solved.
There is a reason on twitch they are referred to as "gamer words". It's just the shock factor + anonymity.
This post baffles me.
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Northern Ireland24424 Posts
On September 24 2020 20:30 Heyoka wrote:
I have a funny and related story. For the launch of Heart of the Swam there was a big esport event on the Blizzard campus, which at the time was a big deal because the SC2 develops were pretty closely guarded at that time so as TL we didn't really get to interact with them much. While we were there Mike Morhaime invited me and HotBid to his office just to do introductions, chat a bit because we had never really met before. We didn't discuss anything serious but were ribbing one another and sharing memories, and one thing that came up was we mentioned we liked how the old system on Battlenet 1.0 worked with chat channels taking more precedent and having game names in the lobbies of custom games.
Mike's response was "It's nice but people really just use those to say racist things. Why let them?" and told us that's why all of it was removed in SC2.
As to your original question I don't know, but that's a concrete example of how us allowing all of this directly makes the gaming experience worse for everyone. We really should be striving to do better in our communities, which is one thing I'm generally proud of in SC2 that much less is tolerated than in some places. And I mean, you don't need to tell your kids racism was something that happened 200 years ago - it's very alive in the USA today and you can find all kinds of examples every day of how it has an effect on lives of people today.
And VonComet hate speech isn't tolerated as a part of freedom of speech so your edgy teenager point is irrelevant. Try harder next time.
That’s interesting, was a big criticism of me how Bnet 2 worked at the time and still does.
Yes you do cut the ability to cut out malicious or playful troll names, but you also cut out the ability to name your lobby ‘DoTA, noobs only’ or whatever and find particular rule sets of custom games.
I hadn’t realised that lobby names being trolly was actually a factor in that particular decision. Still think it was a bad decision for all sorts of reasons
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On September 24 2020 20:52 Pistolen-Luuk wrote:
Thanks for this post, it covers a bunch of issues I have been thinking of as well.
I am 33 so probably a somewhat older gamer as well, but engaged (on and off) in online gaming communities since my teens.
In contrast with some of the opinions voice above I think racism (as well as misogyny around which more discussions have recently been going on) is systemic in the gaming industry (as it is anywhere else). The kind of discussion around the YouTube video posted by the OP makes this clear enough.
Framing racism as a just a way kids 'try to be extra nasty' trivializes this discussion and ignores the fact words are bad for a reason, racism is not just in uttering a racist word but also in (intuitively) understanding that it is a bad word. For how would a racist word be bad without racism?
I wonder then what form this systemic racism takes in videogames. In terms of Starcraft I am interested in the way the game frames race, as in Zerg/Protoss/Terran. Think of the forms of higher intelligence, Asian aesthetics, religion and enlightenment associated with the Protoss race. Sexuality, matriarchial power structures, 'nature' and beastliness associated with the Zerg race. And interestingly a kind of paradoxical, existential conflict in the Terran race. Why are these 'races' constantly at war? What kind of 'othering' is going on? And how are male / female roles divided (i.e the ex convict macho and the matriarch/queen)?
Note that this is something I absolutely not think about while gaming, the game is just too immersive. But it is a kind of background...
Oh no. You guys trying to turn SC2 woke haha.
Starcraft 2 is white supremacy!
The worlds gone nuts.
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idk about other people but whenever someone BMs me with racist slurs or accusations of being a noob or whatever while they're losing, it just makes winning all the more gratifying  .
Edit: I do seriously question the value of total free speech in an in-game chat. Censoring stuff like that probably does not really harm political free-speech (which we can all agree is important) in any meaningful way. Ultimately, I don't really think it is a big deal whether or not they censor it so I think issues like this should be resolved by a democratic process.
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On September 24 2020 20:58 Anc13nt wrote:idk about other people but whenever someone BMs me with racist slurs or accusations of being a noob or whatever while they're losing, it just makes winning all the more gratifying .
The people who are crying and talking woke bs also have 15 posts on TL....
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To the point of "bad" words.
There was a time where "fuck" was used only literally or as an insult. Nowadays nobody cares at all and most sentences without some form of "fuck" or "fucking" in it seem empty ^_^
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Northern Ireland24424 Posts
On September 24 2020 20:59 PresenceSc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2020 20:58 Anc13nt wrote:idk about other people but whenever someone BMs me with racist slurs or accusations of being a noob or whatever while they're losing, it just makes winning all the more gratifying . The people who are crying and talking woke bs also have 15 posts on TL....
I mean I have almost a thousand times that but w/e. It’s an interesting topic, least to me anyway.
Can’t really speak for others but I’d wager there’s quite a few people who either have children getting into games, or are merely older and busy and have less time to play/want to relax while playing competitively and are just considerably less tolerant of an environment we’ve known since our teens or earlier.
I’m pretty pro BM to be fair, think it adds some spice and flavour, of the ‘making carriers nice skill toi have’ variety.
And yes muting is an option, well of course. Then I may as well be playing with AlphaStar all day, least until it learns how to BM
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To the point of "bad" words.
There was a time where "fuck" was used only literally or as an insult. Nowadays nobody cares at all and most sentences without some form of "fuck" or "fucking" in it seem empty ^_^
Yes for sure, meanings change. Nevertheless the 'n' word is racist for a reason, that doesn't come from nowhere.
And shall we leave the woke/sjw namecalling out? Sure, point taken, but it's somewhat off topic. Better to further the discussion, no one is forcing you to be interested.
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On September 24 2020 21:06 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2020 20:59 PresenceSc2 wrote:On September 24 2020 20:58 Anc13nt wrote:idk about other people but whenever someone BMs me with racist slurs or accusations of being a noob or whatever while they're losing, it just makes winning all the more gratifying . The people who are crying and talking woke bs also have 15 posts on TL.... I mean I have almost a thousand times that but w/e. It’s an interesting topic, least to me anyway. Can’t really speak for others but I’d wager there’s quite a few people who either have children getting into games, or are merely older and busy and have less time to play/want to relax while playing competitively and are just considerably less tolerant of an environment we’ve known since our teens or earlier. I’m pretty pro BM to be fair, think it adds some spice and flavour, of the ‘making carriers nice skill toi have’ variety. And yes muting is an option, well of course. Then I may as well be playing with AlphaStar all day, least until it learns how to BM
I can joke and talk shit with some people and that adds something but I hate BM. I just either mute people or don't reply or make fun of them back. It just shows that the person is having ego problems/insecurities that are coming out in a fantasy strategy game.
After some games i feel like saying something about race/balance (game race's settle down SJW's :D) but you put your ego aside and gg.
This thread should just be about BM not racism. We idolize Korean pro gamers as gods. It doesn't fit here.
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On September 24 2020 21:07 Pistolen-Luuk wrote:Show nested quote +To the point of "bad" words.
There was a time where "fuck" was used only literally or as an insult. Nowadays nobody cares at all and most sentences without some form of "fuck" or "fucking" in it seem empty ^_^ Yes for sure, meanings change. Nevertheless the 'n' word is racist for a reason, that doesn't come from nowhere. And shall we leave the woke/sjw namecalling out? Sure, point taken, but it's somewhat off topic. Better to further the discussion, no one is forcing you to be interested.
with posts like this you might get called woke/sjw
I wonder then what form this systemic racism takes in videogames. In terms of Starcraft I am interested in the way the game frames race, as in Zerg/Protoss/Terran. Think of the forms of higher intelligence, Asian aesthetics, religion and enlightenment associated with the Protoss race. Sexuality, matriarchial power structures, 'nature' and beastliness associated with the Zerg race. And interestingly a kind of paradoxical, existential conflict in the Terran race. Why are these 'races' constantly at war? What kind of 'othering' is going on? And how are male / female roles divided (i.e the ex convict macho and the matriarch/queen)?
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On September 24 2020 21:01 Harris1st wrote:
To the point of "bad" words.
There was a time where "fuck" was used only literally or as an insult. Nowadays nobody cares at all and most sentences without some form of "fuck" or "fucking" in it seem empty ^_^
There's a major difference between generic swear words and slurs however.
On the general topic, I don't there's any room for allowing slurs and outright hate speech, or things like telling people to kill themselves. It has no place in the community, and it honestly boggles my mind that anyone thinks the freedom to spout shit, with the direct intent to cause pain or anger, is more valuable than creating a space with some baseline quality control on the interactions you have.
Most forums that aren't totally horrific dumpsterfires have some level of moderation, and pretty much all private venues and communities reserve some right to remove people who keep pissing in the punchbowl. It's pretty essential to community health be able to occasionally prune off the most egregious offenders. Not a hard concept.
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On September 24 2020 20:38 pinky29 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2020 20:30 Heyoka wrote:
I have a funny and related story. For the launch of Heart of the Swam there was a big esport event on the Blizzard campus, which at the time was a big deal because the SC2 develops were pretty closely guarded at that time so as TL we didn't really get to interact with them much. While we were there Mike Morhaime invited me and HotBid to his office just to do introductions, chat a bit because we had never really met before. We didn't discuss anything serious but were ribbing one another and sharing memories, and one thing that came up was we mentioned we liked how the old system on Battlenet 1.0 worked with chat channels taking more precedent and having game names in the lobbies of custom games.
Mike's response was "It's nice but people really just use those to say racist things. Why let them?" and told us that's why all of it was removed in SC2.
As to your original question I don't know, but that's a concrete example of how us allowing all of this directly makes the gaming experience worse for everyone. We really should be striving to do better in our communities, which is one thing I'm generally proud of in SC2 that much less is tolerated than in some places. And I mean, you don't need to tell your kids racism was something that happened 200 years ago - it's very alive in the USA today and you can find all kinds of examples every day of how it has an effect on lives of people today.
And VonComet hate speech isn't tolerated as a part of freedom of speech so your edgy teenager point is irrelevant. Try harder next time. Great story @Heyoka. I actually remember that when I searched for "BGH" games in SC1. It's sad that only a small few can ruin the experience for the rest; however, I would challenge you when you say "racism is alive in the USA" I would ask to what degree. I would argue it is a very small percent ; similar to what you see when you could make random game names in SC1 - 99.9% didn't say the N-word in their title to join. I feel that politics and this nature to "throw the worst slur possible" has polluted our mindset. A vast majority, I would say, cannot appreciate what those words really mean.
Context? Well fuck that. Even if you only meant video games. The amount of racist/xenophobic utter bullshit i see whether it be online or what is blatantly happening in the States today is God damn baffling. Systematic racism doesn't just exist online whether it be video games, social media, every State.
We're living in a God damn mad world right now and it's pretty sad.
Once I think about it's always been a problem. Kids are immoral in general and very receptive to shit talk/picking up nasty words, creating new slang etc. even without exposure to social media and what have you.
I would agree that the vast majority don't even know the origins or roots of how certain words came to be or what they meant in the past and how they evolved.
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Thanks for the thread, don't mind the "iNtErNet iS fUlL oF bAd wOrDs, hOw daRe YoU sAy anYtHiNg!" people, the silliness of their position and willingness to carte blanche defend anonymous vulgarity speak for themselves.
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But SC2 has EULA/policy. SC2 has the authority to take action. Suspending accounts (or even perma banning accounts) is perfect. Making the experience shitty? Go buy another copy of the game.
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It's a derogatory term that only simple minded people with low IQ / low education / low intellect / low vocabulary use.
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On September 24 2020 20:38 pinky29 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2020 20:30 Heyoka wrote:
I have a funny and related story. For the launch of Heart of the Swam there was a big esport event on the Blizzard campus, which at the time was a big deal because the SC2 develops were pretty closely guarded at that time so as TL we didn't really get to interact with them much. While we were there Mike Morhaime invited me and HotBid to his office just to do introductions, chat a bit because we had never really met before. We didn't discuss anything serious but were ribbing one another and sharing memories, and one thing that came up was we mentioned we liked how the old system on Battlenet 1.0 worked with chat channels taking more precedent and having game names in the lobbies of custom games.
Mike's response was "It's nice but people really just use those to say racist things. Why let them?" and told us that's why all of it was removed in SC2.
As to your original question I don't know, but that's a concrete example of how us allowing all of this directly makes the gaming experience worse for everyone. We really should be striving to do better in our communities, which is one thing I'm generally proud of in SC2 that much less is tolerated than in some places. And I mean, you don't need to tell your kids racism was something that happened 200 years ago - it's very alive in the USA today and you can find all kinds of examples every day of how it has an effect on lives of people today.
And VonComet hate speech isn't tolerated as a part of freedom of speech so your edgy teenager point is irrelevant. Try harder next time. Great story @Heyoka. I actually remember that when I searched for "BGH" games in SC1. It's sad that only a small few can ruin the experience for the rest; however, I would challenge you when you say "racism is alive in the USA" I would ask to what degree. I would argue it is a very small percent; similar to what you see when you could make random game names in SC1 - 99.9% didn't say the N-word in their title to join. I feel that politics and this nature to "throw the worst slur possible" has polluted our mindset. A vast majority, I would say, cannot appreciate what those words really mean.
I absolutely do not think that it is a very small percent. (though that is for the us politics thread).
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On September 24 2020 21:07 Pistolen-Luuk wrote:Show nested quote +To the point of "bad" words.
There was a time where "fuck" was used only literally or as an insult. Nowadays nobody cares at all and most sentences without some form of "fuck" or "fucking" in it seem empty ^_^ Yes for sure, meanings change. Nevertheless the 'n' word is racist for a reason, that doesn't come from nowhere. And shall we leave the woke/sjw namecalling out? Sure, point taken, but it's somewhat off topic. Better to further the discussion, no one is forcing you to be interested.
The nice thing is, I don't even know what "woke/sjw" means :D
The line where good natured jibes end and racial slurs begin is hard to find sometimes. Sure there are some clear cases for both, don't get me wrong. I meant more along the lines of, like someone calling Reynor "spaghettiboi". Per definition this is racism.
I mostly experience general BM in my online games (cunt, dick, noob, retard, i had your mommy, stuff like that ) and very little raciscm.
EDIT: by no means do I want to defend people using this kind of language!
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On September 24 2020 20:59 PresenceSc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2020 20:58 Anc13nt wrote:idk about other people but whenever someone BMs me with racist slurs or accusations of being a noob or whatever while they're losing, it just makes winning all the more gratifying . The people who are crying and talking woke bs also have 15 posts on TL....
Having any posts here is a sign of mental deterioration
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On September 24 2020 22:15 sonny42 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2020 20:59 PresenceSc2 wrote:On September 24 2020 20:58 Anc13nt wrote:idk about other people but whenever someone BMs me with racist slurs or accusations of being a noob or whatever while they're losing, it just makes winning all the more gratifying . The people who are crying and talking woke bs also have 15 posts on TL.... Having any posts here is a sign of mental deterioration
Bad troll is bad.
On topic:
I have disabled All chat in teamgames or just chat in general in 1v1 games (where possible)
made my gaming experience a whole lot better.
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EPT
