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On January 23 2023 01:33 Timebon3s wrote:
So now that the dust has settled, was the vaccines a good thing?
I took 3 shots and while my entire family was sick as hell, I didn't notice a thing. 2 kids and GF had covid, I was ontop of them the whole time and didn't get sick, so I'm happy I took it.
Then again none of them has gotten long term effects of covid and my GF who also was vaccinated but got sick, struggled with side effects from the vaccine a long time afterwards. Mostly things related to her period got much worse for a long time afterwards but she is fine now.
I see on the internet that it's almost a common known fact amongst people that masks are bad, vaccines are bad and that Anthony Fauci is a fraud etc etc. Russel Brand, Elon Musk etc have very strong opinions about the vaccine being a corrupt money grab.
Is it just politics or is it some merrit to this?
You may want to check what bubbles in the internet you frequent.
Those things you claim are all common facts are only known facts among very special brand of people.
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On January 23 2023 01:33 Timebon3s wrote:
So now that the dust has settled, was the vaccines a good thing?
That's the least controversial question possible. It's absolutely yes.
I see on the internet that it's almost a common known fact amongst people that masks are bad, vaccines are bad and that Anthony Fauci is a fraud etc etc. Russel Brand, Elon Musk etc have very strong opinions about the vaccine being a corrupt money grab.
Is it just politics or is it some merrit to this?
That's not even politics; that's pure stupidity, although you're correct that most of that nonsense is definitely coming from the right / Republicans. Those opinions are completely without merit. They are absolutely not facts or true.
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I think its fair to say that the first two shots definitely helped but third was very controversal and 4th was just useless
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On January 23 2023 03:06 sharkie wrote:
I think its fair to say that the first two shots definitely helped but third was very controversal and 4th was just useless
They're all controversial politically, because of anti-vaxxers, but I don't know if it's fair to say that the 3rd and 4th shots were medically controversial. They're definitely less helpful than the first two (but less useful is not "useless"), which is why the additional two boosters were loosely recommended as opposed to super-crisis-mode-we-still-need-to-get-everything-under-control requests like the first two, but the first two set a pretty high bar and were much more influential. Within this thread, we've all shared some data showing that the 3rd shot (first booster) had some nice short-term benefits, but definitely wasn't as effective as the first two shots; I imagine that the 4th shot is similarly "decent, but not the end of the world if you skip it".
Looking forward: I'm guessing that we'll start to see annual boosters based on that year's current covid strains, which would mean that getting yearly covid vaccines would be much like yearly flu vaccines: certainly recommended by the medical community, but not mandated by anyone.
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On January 23 2023 01:33 Timebon3s wrote:
So now that the dust has settled, was the vaccines a good thing?
I took 3 shots and while my entire family was sick as hell, I didn't notice a thing. 2 kids and GF had covid, I was ontop of them the whole time and didn't get sick, so I'm happy I took it.
Then again none of them has gotten long term effects of covid and my GF who also was vaccinated but got sick, struggled with side effects from the vaccine a long time afterwards. Mostly things related to her period got much worse for a long time afterwards but she is fine now.
I see on the internet that it's almost a common known fact amongst people that masks are bad, vaccines are bad and that Anthony Fauci is a fraud etc etc. Russel Brand, Elon Musk etc have very strong opinions about the vaccine being a corrupt money grab.
Is it just politics or is it some merrit to this?
I mean:
Results: During the study period, the vaccination campaign averted an estimated $27.96 (95% credible interval [CrI], $26.19-$29.84) billion in health care expenditures and 315 724 (95% CrI, 292 143-340 420) potential years of life lost, averting VSL loss of $26.27 (95% CrI, $24.39-$28.21) billion. The estimated net savings attributable to vaccination were $51.77 (95% CrI, $48.50-$55.85) billion. Every $1 invested in vaccination yielded estimated savings of $10.19 (95% CrI, $9.39-$10.87) in direct and indirect costs of health outcomes that would have been incurred without vaccination.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36409495/
It took 10s of googling to pull that up.
It's as good of an investment as you're going to get.
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Norway28731 Posts
On January 23 2023 04:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2023 03:06 sharkie wrote:
I think its fair to say that the first two shots definitely helped but third was very controversal and 4th was just useless They're all controversial politically, because of anti-vaxxers, but I don't know if it's fair to say that the 3rd and 4th shots were medically controversial. They're definitely less helpful than the first two (but less useful is not "useless"), which is why the additional two boosters were loosely recommended as opposed to super-crisis-mode-we-still-need-to-get-everything-under-control requests like the first two, but the first two set a pretty high bar and were much more influential. Within this thread, we've all shared some data showing that the 3rd shot (first booster) had some nice short-term benefits, but definitely wasn't as effective as the first two shots; I imagine that the 4th shot is similarly "decent, but not the end of the world if you skip it". Looking forward: I'm guessing that we'll start to see annual boosters based on that year's current covid strains, which would mean that getting yearly covid vaccines would be much like yearly flu vaccines: certainly recommended by the medical community, but not mandated by anyone.
At least here in Norway, the medical community is not recommending yearly flu vaccines in general - they only recommend them for the elderly or otherwise vulnerable, and people working with health care. Same with booster number 4. This encompasses somewhere close to 30% of the population - but 70% are not recommended to take influenza vaccines (and are not recommended a fourth booster, at least not yet.)
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On January 23 2023 05:00 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2023 04:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 23 2023 03:06 sharkie wrote:
I think its fair to say that the first two shots definitely helped but third was very controversal and 4th was just useless They're all controversial politically, because of anti-vaxxers, but I don't know if it's fair to say that the 3rd and 4th shots were medically controversial. They're definitely less helpful than the first two (but less useful is not "useless"), which is why the additional two boosters were loosely recommended as opposed to super-crisis-mode-we-still-need-to-get-everything-under-control requests like the first two, but the first two set a pretty high bar and were much more influential. Within this thread, we've all shared some data showing that the 3rd shot (first booster) had some nice short-term benefits, but definitely wasn't as effective as the first two shots; I imagine that the 4th shot is similarly "decent, but not the end of the world if you skip it". Looking forward: I'm guessing that we'll start to see annual boosters based on that year's current covid strains, which would mean that getting yearly covid vaccines would be much like yearly flu vaccines: certainly recommended by the medical community, but not mandated by anyone. At least here in Norway, the medical community is not recommending yearly flu vaccines in general - they only recommend them for the elderly or otherwise vulnerable, and people working with health care. Same with booster number 4. This encompasses somewhere close to 30% of the population - but 70% are not recommended to take influenza vaccines (and are not recommended a fourth booster, at least not yet.)
Any particular reason why they wouldn't want to prevent roughly half of the flu infections in a given year?
"While vaccine effectiveness (VE) can vary, recent studies show that flu vaccination reduces the risk of flu illness by between 40% and 60% among the overall population during seasons when most circulating flu viruses are well-matched to those used to make flu vaccines." https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/vaccineeffect.htm#:~:text=While vaccine effectiveness (VE) can,used to make flu vaccines.
Maybe flu isn't that common in Norway? Or it's dealt with so competently reactively that it doesn't pay to be proactive, or something? In the United States, the flu causes quite a bit of problems.
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On January 21 2023 20:10 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2023 18:50 sharkie wrote:
Staying at home when you are ill should be common courtesy. All the people going out with any kind of symptoms dont care about others Unfortunately employment and life don't prioritize unconditional self-isolation with any kinds of symptoms. Someone going to work when they're sick because they have to feed their family can't be said not to care about others.
thats a problem in societies without socialized health care and shit worker rights
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I remember specifically being told we would be told to get a vaccine every 4 months and now its been a year and a half from when I got my last shot. I think people still don't understand what a vaccine is or why we ever got them.
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On January 23 2023 04:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2023 03:06 sharkie wrote:
I think its fair to say that the first two shots definitely helped but third was very controversal and 4th was just useless They're all controversial politically, because of anti-vaxxers, but I don't know if it's fair to say that the 3rd and 4th shots were medically controversial. They're definitely less helpful than the first two (but less useful is not "useless"), which is why the additional two boosters were loosely recommended as opposed to super-crisis-mode-we-still-need-to-get-everything-under-control requests like the first two, but the first two set a pretty high bar and were much more influential. Within this thread, we've all shared some data showing that the 3rd shot (first booster) had some nice short-term benefits, but definitely wasn't as effective as the first two shots; I imagine that the 4th shot is similarly "decent, but not the end of the world if you skip it". Looking forward: I'm guessing that we'll start to see annual boosters based on that year's current covid strains, which would mean that getting yearly covid vaccines would be much like yearly flu vaccines: certainly recommended by the medical community, but not mandated by anyone.
The 3rd shot was not just “loosely recommended.” Many people were required by law to get it or lose their job.
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On January 23 2023 10:23 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2023 04:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 23 2023 03:06 sharkie wrote:
I think its fair to say that the first two shots definitely helped but third was very controversal and 4th was just useless They're all controversial politically, because of anti-vaxxers, but I don't know if it's fair to say that the 3rd and 4th shots were medically controversial. They're definitely less helpful than the first two (but less useful is not "useless"), which is why the additional two boosters were loosely recommended as opposed to super-crisis-mode-we-still-need-to-get-everything-under-control requests like the first two, but the first two set a pretty high bar and were much more influential. Within this thread, we've all shared some data showing that the 3rd shot (first booster) had some nice short-term benefits, but definitely wasn't as effective as the first two shots; I imagine that the 4th shot is similarly "decent, but not the end of the world if you skip it". Looking forward: I'm guessing that we'll start to see annual boosters based on that year's current covid strains, which would mean that getting yearly covid vaccines would be much like yearly flu vaccines: certainly recommended by the medical community, but not mandated by anyone. The 3rd shot was not just “loosely recommended.” Many people were required by law to get it or lose their job.
A state passed a law mandating "If you don't get the covid vaccination booster, you're not allowed to have a job anymore"? Perhaps you're referring to a private employer mandating the vaccine for their own business, or a state-run public facility mandating the vaccine for itself? The rules created for a business or organization are not the same thing as passing actual laws. Do you have a specific state with a source?
I did find examples of the opposite, though: Some states passed laws preventing employers from requiring vaccinations. The irony, of course, is that this "big government overreach" move was primarily done by Republican states.
1. https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/2021-04-30/these-states-are-banning-covid-19-vaccine-requirements
2. https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/workforce/11-states-banning-covid-19-vaccine-mandates-how-it-affects-healthcare-workers.html
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On January 23 2023 12:16 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2023 10:23 BlackJack wrote:On January 23 2023 04:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 23 2023 03:06 sharkie wrote:
I think its fair to say that the first two shots definitely helped but third was very controversal and 4th was just useless They're all controversial politically, because of anti-vaxxers, but I don't know if it's fair to say that the 3rd and 4th shots were medically controversial. They're definitely less helpful than the first two (but less useful is not "useless"), which is why the additional two boosters were loosely recommended as opposed to super-crisis-mode-we-still-need-to-get-everything-under-control requests like the first two, but the first two set a pretty high bar and were much more influential. Within this thread, we've all shared some data showing that the 3rd shot (first booster) had some nice short-term benefits, but definitely wasn't as effective as the first two shots; I imagine that the 4th shot is similarly "decent, but not the end of the world if you skip it". Looking forward: I'm guessing that we'll start to see annual boosters based on that year's current covid strains, which would mean that getting yearly covid vaccines would be much like yearly flu vaccines: certainly recommended by the medical community, but not mandated by anyone. The 3rd shot was not just “loosely recommended.” Many people were required by law to get it or lose their job. A state passed a law mandating "If you don't get the covid vaccination booster, you're not allowed to have a job anymore"? Perhaps you're referring to a private employer mandating the vaccine for their own business, or a state-run public facility mandating the vaccine for itself? The rules created for a business or organization are not the same thing as passing actual laws. Do you have a specific state with a source? I did find examples of the opposite, though: Some states passed laws preventing employers from requiring vaccinations. The irony, of course, is that this "big government overreach" move was primarily done by Republican states. 1. https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/2021-04-30/these-states-are-banning-covid-19-vaccine-requirements 2. https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/workforce/11-states-banning-covid-19-vaccine-mandates-how-it-affects-healthcare-workers.html
Shrug. There are several states that required COVID boosters specifically for healthcare workers. Here’s a link from the first thing I googled that talks about them delaying the deadlines in some of those states
https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/2022/02/22/booster-mandates
Considering some of the states are large like New York, it’s not hyperbole to say this affects potentially millions of people. Millions falling under a “booster of terminate” mandate is not what I would call “loosely recommended”
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On January 23 2023 12:55 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2023 12:16 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 23 2023 10:23 BlackJack wrote:On January 23 2023 04:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 23 2023 03:06 sharkie wrote:
I think its fair to say that the first two shots definitely helped but third was very controversal and 4th was just useless They're all controversial politically, because of anti-vaxxers, but I don't know if it's fair to say that the 3rd and 4th shots were medically controversial. They're definitely less helpful than the first two (but less useful is not "useless"), which is why the additional two boosters were loosely recommended as opposed to super-crisis-mode-we-still-need-to-get-everything-under-control requests like the first two, but the first two set a pretty high bar and were much more influential. Within this thread, we've all shared some data showing that the 3rd shot (first booster) had some nice short-term benefits, but definitely wasn't as effective as the first two shots; I imagine that the 4th shot is similarly "decent, but not the end of the world if you skip it". Looking forward: I'm guessing that we'll start to see annual boosters based on that year's current covid strains, which would mean that getting yearly covid vaccines would be much like yearly flu vaccines: certainly recommended by the medical community, but not mandated by anyone. The 3rd shot was not just “loosely recommended.” Many people were required by law to get it or lose their job. A state passed a law mandating "If you don't get the covid vaccination booster, you're not allowed to have a job anymore"? Perhaps you're referring to a private employer mandating the vaccine for their own business, or a state-run public facility mandating the vaccine for itself? The rules created for a business or organization are not the same thing as passing actual laws. Do you have a specific state with a source? I did find examples of the opposite, though: Some states passed laws preventing employers from requiring vaccinations. The irony, of course, is that this "big government overreach" move was primarily done by Republican states. 1. https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/2021-04-30/these-states-are-banning-covid-19-vaccine-requirements 2. https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/workforce/11-states-banning-covid-19-vaccine-mandates-how-it-affects-healthcare-workers.html Shrug. There are several states that required COVID boosters specifically for healthcare workers. Here’s a link from the first thing I googled that talks about them delaying the deadlines in some of those states https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/2022/02/22/booster-mandatesConsidering some of the states are large like New York, it’s not hyperbole to say this affects potentially millions of people. Millions falling under a “booster of terminate” mandate is not what I would call “loosely recommended”
...So please don't say things like "required by law" if you don't mean it / if it's not true. The rules put in place for certain public health care groups are equivalent to private employers making the rules for their own businesses. Getting fired from a hospital for not following their medical protocols doesn't mean you necessarily did anything illegal. And, for what it's worth, working with at-risk groups (sick, old, etc.) is a pretty good reason to be overly safe, rather than sorry, which is why the booster was taken more seriously for those specific employees, as opposed to the average response that most employers had for the enforcement of the third booster (which was, as I said before, loosely recommended). Most people are not healthcare workers, but you're right that they took covid more seriously, on average, than laypeople.
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On January 23 2023 13:07 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2023 12:55 BlackJack wrote:On January 23 2023 12:16 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 23 2023 10:23 BlackJack wrote:On January 23 2023 04:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 23 2023 03:06 sharkie wrote:
I think its fair to say that the first two shots definitely helped but third was very controversal and 4th was just useless They're all controversial politically, because of anti-vaxxers, but I don't know if it's fair to say that the 3rd and 4th shots were medically controversial. They're definitely less helpful than the first two (but less useful is not "useless"), which is why the additional two boosters were loosely recommended as opposed to super-crisis-mode-we-still-need-to-get-everything-under-control requests like the first two, but the first two set a pretty high bar and were much more influential. Within this thread, we've all shared some data showing that the 3rd shot (first booster) had some nice short-term benefits, but definitely wasn't as effective as the first two shots; I imagine that the 4th shot is similarly "decent, but not the end of the world if you skip it". Looking forward: I'm guessing that we'll start to see annual boosters based on that year's current covid strains, which would mean that getting yearly covid vaccines would be much like yearly flu vaccines: certainly recommended by the medical community, but not mandated by anyone. The 3rd shot was not just “loosely recommended.” Many people were required by law to get it or lose their job. A state passed a law mandating "If you don't get the covid vaccination booster, you're not allowed to have a job anymore"? Perhaps you're referring to a private employer mandating the vaccine for their own business, or a state-run public facility mandating the vaccine for itself? The rules created for a business or organization are not the same thing as passing actual laws. Do you have a specific state with a source? I did find examples of the opposite, though: Some states passed laws preventing employers from requiring vaccinations. The irony, of course, is that this "big government overreach" move was primarily done by Republican states. 1. https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/2021-04-30/these-states-are-banning-covid-19-vaccine-requirements 2. https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/workforce/11-states-banning-covid-19-vaccine-mandates-how-it-affects-healthcare-workers.html Shrug. There are several states that required COVID boosters specifically for healthcare workers. Here’s a link from the first thing I googled that talks about them delaying the deadlines in some of those states https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/2022/02/22/booster-mandatesConsidering some of the states are large like New York, it’s not hyperbole to say this affects potentially millions of people. Millions falling under a “booster of terminate” mandate is not what I would call “loosely recommended” ...So please don't say things like "required by law" if you don't mean it / if it's not true. The rules put in place for certain public health care groups are equivalent to private employers making the rules for their own businesses. Getting fired from a hospital for not following their medical protocols doesn't mean you necessarily did anything illegal. And, for what it's worth, working with at-risk groups (sick, old, etc.) is a pretty good reason to be overly safe, rather than sorry, which is why the booster was taken more seriously for those specific employees, as opposed to the average response that most employers had for the enforcement of the third booster (which was, as I said before, loosely recommended). Most people are not healthcare workers, but you're right that they took covid more seriously, on average, than laypeople.
I’ve no idea what you’re talking about. Several states have required healthcare workers to get a booster shot. That’s not a “hospital policy.” That’s a law passed by a state legislature.
Yes, the hospital also requires it because the hospitals want to obey the law…
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BJ is right that healthcare workers were fired for not getting vaccinated. Edit: and yes, some or all of those cases were from mandates by law.
To this day I've never heard a compelling argument from anyone why that wasn't exactly the right thing to do.
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On January 23 2023 07:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2023 05:00 Liquid`Drone wrote:On January 23 2023 04:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 23 2023 03:06 sharkie wrote:
I think its fair to say that the first two shots definitely helped but third was very controversal and 4th was just useless They're all controversial politically, because of anti-vaxxers, but I don't know if it's fair to say that the 3rd and 4th shots were medically controversial. They're definitely less helpful than the first two (but less useful is not "useless"), which is why the additional two boosters were loosely recommended as opposed to super-crisis-mode-we-still-need-to-get-everything-under-control requests like the first two, but the first two set a pretty high bar and were much more influential. Within this thread, we've all shared some data showing that the 3rd shot (first booster) had some nice short-term benefits, but definitely wasn't as effective as the first two shots; I imagine that the 4th shot is similarly "decent, but not the end of the world if you skip it". Looking forward: I'm guessing that we'll start to see annual boosters based on that year's current covid strains, which would mean that getting yearly covid vaccines would be much like yearly flu vaccines: certainly recommended by the medical community, but not mandated by anyone. At least here in Norway, the medical community is not recommending yearly flu vaccines in general - they only recommend them for the elderly or otherwise vulnerable, and people working with health care. Same with booster number 4. This encompasses somewhere close to 30% of the population - but 70% are not recommended to take influenza vaccines (and are not recommended a fourth booster, at least not yet.) Any particular reason why they wouldn't want to prevent roughly half of the flu infections in a given year? "While vaccine effectiveness (VE) can vary, recent studies show that flu vaccination reduces the risk of flu illness by between 40% and 60% among the overall population during seasons when most circulating flu viruses are well-matched to those used to make flu vaccines." https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/vaccineeffect.htm#:~:text=While vaccine effectiveness (VE) can,used to make flu vaccines. Maybe flu isn't that common in Norway? Or it's dealt with so competently reactively that it doesn't pay to be proactive, or something? In the United States, the flu causes quite a bit of problems.
It is a cost/benefit issue. Flu shots to certain groups is done every year, but from there, you get diminishing returns. If you need to give 100.000 healthy 20 year olds a shot to possibly prevent a single serious case, is it worth it? At that point, even the side effects of the shots start creeping upwards towards the medical benefit. 100.000 shots is not cheap either, and the money needs to come from elsewhere within healtcare, more frequent cancer scannings, for example.
Some like to get their flu shot every year for relatively a small price. Unfortunately, they can pick the wrong strain to become dominant, so there is still no guarantee to avoid illness.
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Norway28731 Posts
On January 23 2023 07:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2023 05:00 Liquid`Drone wrote:On January 23 2023 04:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 23 2023 03:06 sharkie wrote:
I think its fair to say that the first two shots definitely helped but third was very controversal and 4th was just useless They're all controversial politically, because of anti-vaxxers, but I don't know if it's fair to say that the 3rd and 4th shots were medically controversial. They're definitely less helpful than the first two (but less useful is not "useless"), which is why the additional two boosters were loosely recommended as opposed to super-crisis-mode-we-still-need-to-get-everything-under-control requests like the first two, but the first two set a pretty high bar and were much more influential. Within this thread, we've all shared some data showing that the 3rd shot (first booster) had some nice short-term benefits, but definitely wasn't as effective as the first two shots; I imagine that the 4th shot is similarly "decent, but not the end of the world if you skip it". Looking forward: I'm guessing that we'll start to see annual boosters based on that year's current covid strains, which would mean that getting yearly covid vaccines would be much like yearly flu vaccines: certainly recommended by the medical community, but not mandated by anyone. At least here in Norway, the medical community is not recommending yearly flu vaccines in general - they only recommend them for the elderly or otherwise vulnerable, and people working with health care. Same with booster number 4. This encompasses somewhere close to 30% of the population - but 70% are not recommended to take influenza vaccines (and are not recommended a fourth booster, at least not yet.) Any particular reason why they wouldn't want to prevent roughly half of the flu infections in a given year? "While vaccine effectiveness (VE) can vary, recent studies show that flu vaccination reduces the risk of flu illness by between 40% and 60% among the overall population during seasons when most circulating flu viruses are well-matched to those used to make flu vaccines." https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/vaccineeffect.htm#:~:text=While vaccine effectiveness (VE) can,used to make flu vaccines. Maybe flu isn't that common in Norway? Or it's dealt with so competently reactively that it doesn't pay to be proactive, or something? In the United States, the flu causes quite a bit of problems.
I have no idea how common it is compared to other places, but essentially, aside from the at-risk-groups, it's just considered something you deal with and accept as part of life.  I've had it like 3-4 times during adulthood and I'm knocked out for 1-2 days and then spend another 2-3 days chilling and recovering, and then life goes back to normal. I mean, the 'it's just a flu' arguments circulating when covid appeared were obviously wrong - but had they been correct, there'd be no point in any of the covid-related policies, because the flu is something most people manage to deal with just fine.
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EPT
