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On January 16 2022 21:26 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2022 20:28 RKC wrote:
Is Djokovic also banned from Australia for 3 years? If the court papers really show how he lied or misled the authorities, then he should've really agreed to be deported in the first place instead of letting the authorities and public dig deeper. Now he may even risk being barred from other countries and tournaments. What a fiasco... Basically, yes, if the immigration minister directly intervenes that carries an automatic three year ban. However the minister has a lot of discretion and could intervene again to let him back in. I could see that happening if he got jabbed and there was a public climbdown, but probably not otherwise. https://theconversation.com/novak-djokovics-visa-cancelled-in-the-public-interest-with-possible-3-year-ban-from-australia-174968Show nested quote +
The immigration minister has broad discretionary powers under section 133C (3) of the Migration Act to cancel visas on public interest grounds, including on the grounds of health, safety or good order.
Following Hawke’s decision, the law dictates that Djokovic will not be able to be granted another visa for three years, except in certain circumstances. These include compelling circumstances that affect the interests of Australia or compassionate or compelling circumstances affecting the interests of an Australian citizen, permanent resident or eligible New Zealand citizen.
Hawke did not address whether Djokovic was likely to be able to obtain a visa before the end of the three-year period.
It's hard to overstate how disastrous this is for Djokovic. Most talk so far has been about the immediate saga and the repuational damage, which is bad enough, but from the perspective of the history books, he was also extremely likely to get a grand slam somewhere in the next three years and that's off the cards now. He'll still get the slam record so I'm sure he'll survive, but one of his biggest remaining professional goals is in tatters as a result of this. Honestly if I was him, I would have considered leaving on my own a couple days ago to avoid the three-year ban.
If correct that he got COVID last month, why would he be a threat to public health in Australia? If anything, he probably has a lot of antibodies and re-infection in less than 1 month is what percentage, maybe less than 1%? I understand each country decides for themselves, that's a valid point but it seems this one is "a rule for the sake of rules". For instance, recent infection (< 3 months) and 1 or 2 negative PCR tests seems like a good balance to me to let someone in. Having said that, it was totally avoidable if he planned to do 14-day quarantine before his matches in Australia Open. I'm sure his team could have secured him a way to do some training indoors during that time.
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Djokovic is a strong-willed person. But I'm starting to feel sorry for him as it seems likely he got really bad 'advice' from his lawyers, coaches, parents, and fans. Like he felt this great weight on his shoulders to fight on no matter what.
I say this because he does comes across as genuinely confused and clueless during the initial interview with the immigration officer. Yes, he may have known his team pulled a fast one and was feigning ignorance a little. But I think the whole affair blowing into a political storm just caught him by surprise, and he relied on his advisers to guide his actions.
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Absolutely. This whole thing is a tire fire. There is no way that djokovic would have come if he'd known this was a possible outcome, much less a likely one. His agents screwed up, the open screwed up, our government monumentally screwed up. Djokovic himself is clearly not blameless. Everyone, front row to the back, comes out the worse for this having occurred.
Here is the most comprehensive timeline I've found:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-01-16/novak-djokovic-fight-against-visa-cancellation-court-ruling/100759514
+ Show Spoiler +Key dates in the Djokovic saga
On November 18, Djokovic is granted a temporary activity (subclass 408) visa. Temporary activity visas enable people to work in Australia on a short-term basis, and subclass 408 covers sporting activities.
On November 29, Federal Health Minister Greg Hunt writes to Tennis Australia chief executive Craig Tiley, saying players wishing to enter Australia quarantine-free must be fully vaccinated and cannot count a previous infection as a reason for exemption.
On December 16, Djokovic undertakes both PCR and rapid antigen COVID tests, according to a statement put out by the tennis star.
On December 17, Djokovic participates in events having not yet received a positive COVID test result.
On December 18, Djokovic takes part in a media interview despite having received a positive result on the PCR test.
On December 30, Djokovic receives a letter from the Chief Medical Officer of Tennis Australia stating he has been granted a "medical exemption from COVID vaccination" on the grounds that he had recently recovered from COVID-19.
On January 1, Djokovic receives an automated online confirmation via the Australian Travel Declaration website/app that he met the requirements for a "quarantine-free arrival into Australia where permitted by the jurisdiction of your arrival".
Just before midnight on January 5, Djokovic arrives in Melbourne on a flight from Dubai and is detained at the airport.
In the early hours of January 6, Djokovic is interviewed by Border Force officials before his visa is cancelled and he is transferred to a Melbourne immigration detention hotel.
Later that day, his lawyers file a challenge against the cancellation of his visa. An injunction is granted to allow Djokovic to remain in the country until January 10, the same day a hearing is scheduled in the Federal Circuit Court.
On January 10, the court finds Djokovic's visa was unreasonably cancelled and orders his release from detention. After his release, the tennis star publicly states his intention to stay in the country and compete at the Australian Open.
On January 13, the Australian Open draw takes place and a match between Djokovic and compatriot Miomir Kecmanovic is scheduled for the first round of the tournament.
On January 14, Immigration Minister Alex Hawke uses his ministerial powers to cancel Djokovic's visa on "health and good order grounds". Later that day, Djokovic's lawyers lodge an application at the Federal Circuit Court to appeal against the cancellation.
On January 15, the Federal Court confirms it will hear Djokovic's application before a full bench. Djokovic is taken back to immigration detention.
On January 16, the Federal Court dismisses the Djokovic's application before a full bench.
The key screwup in my mind is this series:
On November 29, Federal Health Minister Greg Hunt writes to Tennis Australia chief executive Craig Tiley, saying players wishing to enter Australia quarantine-free must be fully vaccinated and cannot count a previous infection as a reason for exemption.
[...]
On December 30, Djokovic receives a letter from the Chief Medical Officer of Tennis Australia stating he has been granted a "medical exemption from COVID vaccination" on the grounds that he had recently recovered from COVID-19.
On January 1, Djokovic receives an automated online confirmation via the Australian Travel Declaration website/app that he met the requirements for a "quarantine-free arrival into Australia where permitted by the jurisdiction of your arrival".
Just before midnight on January 5, Djokovic arrives in Melbourne on a flight from Dubai and is detained at the airport.
How in the world does some tennis official have the power to grant a border exemption? He freaking doesn't, that's how. Borders are always a federal issue. There has to have been some kind of federal ok in that process for the confirmation to go out.
My instinct is that the open/state gov managed to coax a rubber stamp out of the bureaucracy without it appearing on the federal cabinet's radar. The core cockup is the disconnect between the immigration minister's expectations and what actually came out of the apparatus he's supposed to be in charge of. This situation is the minister's responsibility and ultimately the minister's fault.
It makes me absolutely furious that our government's incompetence is once again making headlines all over the world, and this not even six months after the french sub catastrophe. It's like they see it as their goal to piss off the whole of Europe one country at a time over the stupidest issues they can find.
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On January 16 2022 21:42 RKC wrote:
Djokovic is a strong-willed person. But I'm starting to feel sorry for him as it seems likely he got really bad 'advice' from his lawyers, coaches, parents, and fans. Like he felt this great weight on his shoulders to fight on no matter what.
I say this because he does comes across as genuinely confused and clueless during the initial interview with the immigration officer. Yes, he may have known his team pulled a fast one and was feigning ignorance a little. But I think the whole affair blowing into a political storm just caught him by surprise, and he relied on his advisers to guide his actions. All that relies on him having actually had Covid in December and apparently still going to public event directly after finding this out.
If he lied about having had a recent infection then I don't feel any reason to be sorry for him. He knowingly lied to try and sneak into one of the most heavily covid restricted countries in the world and was moronic enough to make a tweet about it before traveling to Australia.
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On January 16 2022 22:06 Belisarius wrote:
It makes me absolutely furious that our government's incompetence is once again making headlines all over the world, and this not even six months after the french sub catastrophe. It's like they see it as their goal to piss off the whole of Europe one country at a time over the stupidest issues they can find.
The sub thing was bad, I agree, but on the Novaxx case: Don´t worry. At least in Germany, most people are pretty happy with that end.
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On January 16 2022 22:06 Belisarius wrote:Absolutely. This whole thing is a tire fire. There is no way that djokovic would have come if he'd known this was a possible outcome, much less a likely one. His agents screwed up, the open screwed up, our government monumentally screwed up. Djokovic himself is clearly not blameless. Everyone, front row to the back, comes out the worse for this having occurred. Here is the most comprehensive timeline I've found: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-01-16/novak-djokovic-fight-against-visa-cancellation-court-ruling/100759514+ Show Spoiler +Key dates in the Djokovic saga
On November 18, Djokovic is granted a temporary activity (subclass 408) visa. Temporary activity visas enable people to work in Australia on a short-term basis, and subclass 408 covers sporting activities.
On November 29, Federal Health Minister Greg Hunt writes to Tennis Australia chief executive Craig Tiley, saying players wishing to enter Australia quarantine-free must be fully vaccinated and cannot count a previous infection as a reason for exemption.
On December 16, Djokovic undertakes both PCR and rapid antigen COVID tests, according to a statement put out by the tennis star.
On December 17, Djokovic participates in events having not yet received a positive COVID test result.
On December 18, Djokovic takes part in a media interview despite having received a positive result on the PCR test.
On December 30, Djokovic receives a letter from the Chief Medical Officer of Tennis Australia stating he has been granted a "medical exemption from COVID vaccination" on the grounds that he had recently recovered from COVID-19.
On January 1, Djokovic receives an automated online confirmation via the Australian Travel Declaration website/app that he met the requirements for a "quarantine-free arrival into Australia where permitted by the jurisdiction of your arrival".
Just before midnight on January 5, Djokovic arrives in Melbourne on a flight from Dubai and is detained at the airport.
In the early hours of January 6, Djokovic is interviewed by Border Force officials before his visa is cancelled and he is transferred to a Melbourne immigration detention hotel.
Later that day, his lawyers file a challenge against the cancellation of his visa. An injunction is granted to allow Djokovic to remain in the country until January 10, the same day a hearing is scheduled in the Federal Circuit Court.
On January 10, the court finds Djokovic's visa was unreasonably cancelled and orders his release from detention. After his release, the tennis star publicly states his intention to stay in the country and compete at the Australian Open.
On January 13, the Australian Open draw takes place and a match between Djokovic and compatriot Miomir Kecmanovic is scheduled for the first round of the tournament.
On January 14, Immigration Minister Alex Hawke uses his ministerial powers to cancel Djokovic's visa on "health and good order grounds". Later that day, Djokovic's lawyers lodge an application at the Federal Circuit Court to appeal against the cancellation.
On January 15, the Federal Court confirms it will hear Djokovic's application before a full bench. Djokovic is taken back to immigration detention.
On January 16, the Federal Court dismisses the Djokovic's application before a full bench. The key screwup in my mind is this series: Show nested quote +
On November 29, Federal Health Minister Greg Hunt writes to Tennis Australia chief executive Craig Tiley, saying players wishing to enter Australia quarantine-free must be fully vaccinated and cannot count a previous infection as a reason for exemption.
[...]
On December 30, Djokovic receives a letter from the Chief Medical Officer of Tennis Australia stating he has been granted a "medical exemption from COVID vaccination" on the grounds that he had recently recovered from COVID-19.
On January 1, Djokovic receives an automated online confirmation via the Australian Travel Declaration website/app that he met the requirements for a "quarantine-free arrival into Australia where permitted by the jurisdiction of your arrival".
Just before midnight on January 5, Djokovic arrives in Melbourne on a flight from Dubai and is detained at the airport.
How in the world does some tennis official have the power to grant a border exemption? He freaking doesn't, that's how. Borders are always a federal issue. There has to have been some kind of federal ok in that process for the confirmation to go out. My instinct is that the open/state gov managed to coax a rubber stamp out of the bureaucracy without it appearing on the federal cabinet's radar. The core cockup is the disconnect between the immigration minister's expectations and what actually came out of the apparatus he's supposed to be in charge of. This situation is the minister's responsibility and ultimately the minister's fault. It makes me absolutely furious that our government's incompetence is once again making headlines all over the world, and this not even six months after the french sub catastrophe. It's like they see it as their goal to piss off the whole of Europe one country at a time over the stupidest issues they can find.
Who in Europe is this supposed to piss off? I haven't known a single person on any forum who is supporting Joke through all this. If his covid test story is true (probably not given the timing) he spent the next day unmasked around a bunch of kids. He's a shitter in this situation.
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On January 16 2022 19:51 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2022 19:15 maybenexttime wrote:
Djokovic lied in his visa application. He most likely lied in his forms when traveling to Spain as well. He said he took a PCR test after a negative LFT "out of abundance of caution" but didn't bother to self-isolate and attended a crowded event the next day. Finally, it looks like he may have faked his tests as well. The guy was asking for this to happen. i havent seen any articles supporting the claim that he faked his tests, but i was of the opinion that this was the far likelier truth than him actually having tested positive. i dont actually think he was positive and decided to circumvent isolation laws in multiple countries, just that he thought our security would be a joke and he could produce test results at his convenience to participate in the open.
I meant the revelations from this article:
The Serbian testing system, as is normal for such programs, assigns an identification number to every test. The number for Djoković's positive test, allegedly taken on Dec. 16, is 7371999. But for the negative test taken on Dec. 22, the identification number is 50,000 spots lower.
This explanation makes even more sense when one considers that 50,000 tests were performed between Dec. 22 and Dec. 26 according to Serbian health data. That is precisely the difference between the two identification numbers of Djoković's two tests. According to official Serbian statistics, the country has now performed a total of over 7.4 million tests.
"Based on these pieces of evidence, the most plausible explanation is that the positive test result was added to the official Serbian database on the 26th of December, and not on the 16th," say the experts from zerforschung.
https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/novak-djokovic-were-the-results-of-his-positive-pcr-test-manipulated-a-cf3e7344-e98f-4fc3-8bb3-7727d4795e97
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On January 16 2022 20:28 RKC wrote:
Hm some of my friends are thinking twice about boosters precisely because they're willing to hold out for something better and worry that too many shots with the current vaccines may bar or delay them from taking newer and better jabs. Is there any scientific basis for such concern?
Is Djokovic also banned from Australia for 3 years? If the court papers really show how he lied or misled the authorities, then he should've really agreed to be deported in the first place instead of letting the authorities and public dig deeper. Now he may even risk being barred from other countries and tournaments. What a fiasco...
From what I've read, he's banned for 3 years automatically, but the next time he applies for a visa he can also apply to have the ban waived. Odds are, if the pandemic is finally over next year, the ban will be waived and he can play (my opinion).
Canadian govt has purchased enough options for shots for 2 a year for the next 3 years or something. If an omicron shot comes out, I'll grab one when it's available. Assuming it works as well against omicron as og vaccine does against delta, there's not much reason for me to not take it and be comfortably interacting with everyone I care about in indoor spaces. Booster shot was a non-issue, 0 side effects for me.
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It's like they see it as their goal to piss off the whole of Europe one country at a time over the stupidest issues they can find.
Europe here. Nobody gives a shit apart from serbia, where his status is comparable to jesus, roughly.
In fact, i'd argue that the vast majority (and i mean, 80+%), if anything, agree with the australian government. We might be unhappy with our restrictions, but that doesn't mean that we're okay with someone else flouting them based on his status while we're forced to adhere to them.
Fuck the guy, same rules for him as for us.
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Because there are some "inconsistancies" with Djokovic' Covid tests, I basically support the Australian decision.
But on the other hand, for a while now I'm a little bit "pissed" about the treatment of people that got Covid! All our experience of infections in the past and also current research with Covid tells us, that people that recovered are quite safe and have antibodies and so on. And still, they are treated as "second rate people" with Covid!
"You got your vaccination January 2021? You are treated as vaccinated now in January 2022."
"You got Covid in January 2021 and recovered? Well, since July you are nothing! Get a shot!"
Or currently at least here in Germany (and probably in other countries too) for a lot of things you have be tested on top of your vaccination ... or you already got your booster shot! If you did that, you don't have to test for everything.
"What? You are vaccinated and got Covid anyway? Sorry, that is not a "booster", get a test!"
And in addition to that I learned
"What, you got Covid and want to get your booster, because you don't want to test everywhere? No! You have to wait 3 months after your infection for that! Have fun with your tests!"
So, overall, I don't like this "be vaccinated" and ignoring anyone that recovered from Covid! And Australia basically does that with their travel restrictions. So I can't support them too much!
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On January 17 2022 15:59 Geisterkarle wrote:
Because there are some "inconsistancies" with Djokovic' Covid tests, I basically support the Australian decision.
But on the other hand, for a while now I'm a little bit "pissed" about the treatment of people that got Covid! All our experience of infections in the past and also current research with Covid tells us, that people that recovered are quite safe and have antibodies and so on. And still, they are treated as "second rate people" with Covid!
"You got your vaccination January 2021? You are treated as vaccinated now in January 2022."
"You got Covid in January 2021 and recovered? Well, since July you are nothing! Get a shot!"
Or currently at least here in Germany (and probably in other countries too) for a lot of things you have be tested on top of your vaccination ... or you already got your booster shot! If you did that, you don't have to test for everything.
"What? You are vaccinated and got Covid anyway? Sorry, that is not a "booster", get a test!"
And in addition to that I learned
"What, you got Covid and want to get your booster, because you don't want to test everywhere? No! You have to wait 3 months after your infection for that! Have fun with your tests!"
So, overall, I don't like this "be vaccinated" and ignoring anyone that recovered from Covid! And Australia basically does that with their travel restrictions. So I can't support them too much!
Incredible inconsistencies are everywhere. I have read that vaccines only protect 10-30% against symptomatic omicron infection, and are very ineffective at stopping the spread. It would be very interesting to see this studied!
The only reason I can see for those kinds of travel restrictions is to force more people to get their shots. I don't buy that it "protects" the unvaccinated from serious Illness, as the virus will get around to them eventually anyway.
I wish we could all just say "screw it" at this point. My main reason is that despite record numbers in the UK, the ICU numbers actually go slightly down. This is very different from previous waves. The increase in general hospitalizations should be explained by people getting in for other reasons and testing positive upon arrival:
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare
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On January 17 2022 15:59 Geisterkarle wrote:
Because there are some "inconsistancies" with Djokovic' Covid tests, I basically support the Australian decision.
But on the other hand, for a while now I'm a little bit "pissed" about the treatment of people that got Covid! All our experience of infections in the past and also current research with Covid tells us, that people that recovered are quite safe and have antibodies and so on. And still, they are treated as "second rate people" with Covid!
"You got your vaccination January 2021? You are treated as vaccinated now in January 2022."
"You got Covid in January 2021 and recovered? Well, since July you are nothing! Get a shot!"
Or currently at least here in Germany (and probably in other countries too) for a lot of things you have be tested on top of your vaccination ... or you already got your booster shot! If you did that, you don't have to test for everything.
"What? You are vaccinated and got Covid anyway? Sorry, that is not a "booster", get a test!"
And in addition to that I learned
"What, you got Covid and want to get your booster, because you don't want to test everywhere? No! You have to wait 3 months after your infection for that! Have fun with your tests!"
So, overall, I don't like this "be vaccinated" and ignoring anyone that recovered from Covid! And Australia basically does that with their travel restrictions. So I can't support them too much!
I see the major justification being the fact that vaccinated folks are much less likely to need hospital care when they get omicron. Fundamentally, the biggest problem we face right now is Omicron destroying our medical systems. People are missing out on cancer treatments because you die from breathing issues sooner than you die from cancer. We are creating a ton of death as a result of treating unvaccinated covid patients. This is worth punishing. This is not a personal decision anymore when we have tons of data showing unvaccinated people are the reason our hospitals are overwhelmed.
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Ok, my "recovered rant" got the better of reality!
Germany actually said, that "recovered" is just "good" for 3(THREE) months!
Why? Because... Omicron!? So, if you get infected with omicron right now, your "recovered" state is invalid in 3 month because ... probably still Omicron around!??? What the hell is this shit? (sorry, I can't use any less language...)
Also I can't find it's complete source, but in another forum someone quoted something/-one (https://community.rejoined.de/t/coronavirus/38/680 - German), that many people that are recovered are not vaccinated, so this is just a further push to get more vaccinations going! So if that is true, there is no real scientific reason that recovered are more likely to get another infection or have dangerous sideeffects if they get it; it is just politics! To repeat myself:
What the hell is this shit?
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On January 18 2022 01:48 Geisterkarle wrote:
Ok, my "recovered rant" got the better of reality!
Germany actually said, that "recovered" is just "good" for 3(THREE) months!
Why? Because... Omicron!? So, if you get infected with omicron right now, your "recovered" state is invalid in 3 month because ... probably still Omicron around!??? What the hell is this shit? (sorry, I can't use any less language...)
Also I can't find it's complete source, but in another forum someone quoted something/-one (https://community.rejoined.de/t/coronavirus/38/680 - German), that many people that are recovered are not vaccinated, so this is just a further push to get more vaccinations going! So if that is true, there is no real scientific reason that recovered are more likely to get another infection or have dangerous sideeffects if they get it; it is just politics! To repeat myself:
What the hell is this shit?
Every country has their bullshit, and a lot of it much worse than this! Some of my favourites:
-Norway forbidding people to visit their cabins because 3 mayors in areas with a lot of cabins got scared. This was complete bullshit as you can easily go home before you get seriously ill, and the wave turned out to be negligable.
-Spain obliging facemasks outdoors during the summer of 2020, at a time with almost no infections. If distancing was possible did not matter, and it even included hiking in some areas. There were no scientific backing for this, and infections caused by people walking in the street are still nowhere to be found.
-The Danes obliging bi-weekly tests for ALL students and office workers for months. At at time, they had around 10x the amount of tests of comparable countries, which also tested a lot.
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On January 18 2022 01:45 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2022 15:59 Geisterkarle wrote:
Because there are some "inconsistancies" with Djokovic' Covid tests, I basically support the Australian decision.
But on the other hand, for a while now I'm a little bit "pissed" about the treatment of people that got Covid! All our experience of infections in the past and also current research with Covid tells us, that people that recovered are quite safe and have antibodies and so on. And still, they are treated as "second rate people" with Covid!
"You got your vaccination January 2021? You are treated as vaccinated now in January 2022."
"You got Covid in January 2021 and recovered? Well, since July you are nothing! Get a shot!"
Or currently at least here in Germany (and probably in other countries too) for a lot of things you have be tested on top of your vaccination ... or you already got your booster shot! If you did that, you don't have to test for everything.
"What? You are vaccinated and got Covid anyway? Sorry, that is not a "booster", get a test!"
And in addition to that I learned
"What, you got Covid and want to get your booster, because you don't want to test everywhere? No! You have to wait 3 months after your infection for that! Have fun with your tests!"
So, overall, I don't like this "be vaccinated" and ignoring anyone that recovered from Covid! And Australia basically does that with their travel restrictions. So I can't support them too much! I see the major justification being the fact that vaccinated folks are much less likely to need hospital care when they get omicron. Fundamentally, the biggest problem we face right now is Omicron destroying our medical systems. People are missing out on cancer treatments because you die from breathing issues sooner than you die from cancer. We are creating a ton of death as a result of treating unvaccinated covid patients. This is worth punishing. This is not a personal decision anymore when we have tons of data showing unvaccinated people are the reason our hospitals are overwhelmed.
I wouldn't have a problem with this line of reasoning if we plotted more risks factors than vaccination status, or we if we did for all diseases.
30 yo perfect health unvaxed vs 30 yo obese vaxed, who is at bigger risk from covid? How about who is a bigger risk for the health care system at all?
30 yo unvaxed vs 60 yo fat ? etc etc
It's just arbitrary to discriminate on one variable about one disease.
The obsession with vaccination for this particular disease is just odd to me, seems like scape goating more than anything, specially with how high vaccination is on most western countries already.
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On January 18 2022 03:48 GoTuNk! wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2022 01:45 Mohdoo wrote:On January 17 2022 15:59 Geisterkarle wrote:
Because there are some "inconsistancies" with Djokovic' Covid tests, I basically support the Australian decision.
But on the other hand, for a while now I'm a little bit "pissed" about the treatment of people that got Covid! All our experience of infections in the past and also current research with Covid tells us, that people that recovered are quite safe and have antibodies and so on. And still, they are treated as "second rate people" with Covid!
"You got your vaccination January 2021? You are treated as vaccinated now in January 2022."
"You got Covid in January 2021 and recovered? Well, since July you are nothing! Get a shot!"
Or currently at least here in Germany (and probably in other countries too) for a lot of things you have be tested on top of your vaccination ... or you already got your booster shot! If you did that, you don't have to test for everything.
"What? You are vaccinated and got Covid anyway? Sorry, that is not a "booster", get a test!"
And in addition to that I learned
"What, you got Covid and want to get your booster, because you don't want to test everywhere? No! You have to wait 3 months after your infection for that! Have fun with your tests!"
So, overall, I don't like this "be vaccinated" and ignoring anyone that recovered from Covid! And Australia basically does that with their travel restrictions. So I can't support them too much! I see the major justification being the fact that vaccinated folks are much less likely to need hospital care when they get omicron. Fundamentally, the biggest problem we face right now is Omicron destroying our medical systems. People are missing out on cancer treatments because you die from breathing issues sooner than you die from cancer. We are creating a ton of death as a result of treating unvaccinated covid patients. This is worth punishing. This is not a personal decision anymore when we have tons of data showing unvaccinated people are the reason our hospitals are overwhelmed. I wouldn't have a problem with this line of reasoning if we plotted more risks factors than vaccination status, or we if we did for all diseases. 30 yo perfect health unvaxed vs 30 yo obese vaxed, who is at bigger risk from covid? How about who is a bigger risk for the health care system at all? 30 yo unvaxed vs 60 yo fat ? etc etc It's just arbitrary to discriminate on one variable about one disease. The obsession with vaccination for this particular disease is just odd to me, seems like scape goating more than anything, specially with how high vaccination is on most western countries already.
We should strive to be a society that can accommodate as many people's problems/illnesses as possible. We were not anywhere near this bad of a situation before covid. There is no reason to stop giving life saving surgeries to fat people when there are plenty of doctors available to do it. That's the basic premise of triage. All of this was still true before covid.
It is not arbitrary. Arbitrary is defined as "Determined by chance, whim, or impulse, and not by necessity, reason, or principle"
Here is a chart showing relative hospitalization by age and vax status
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/We919F6.png)
From here: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/alberta-severe-outcomes-covid-vaccination-1.6178449
This is a very huge disparity. This is not arbitrary. This is based on the fact that people are making a conscious decision to be vaccinated and subsequently preventing someone from having life saving surgery for cancer or some other illness that kills people in months rather than days. We have no reason to go down this whataboutism rabbit hole when we have an extremely clear case right in front of us.
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Northern Ireland23337 Posts
It is arbitrary, at times, sure.It’s also easy to do and implement, relatively speaking.
A perfect system that accounts for all possibilities and would b require a ton of money and person power to devise and maintain, or require some impingement on privacy, or both.
Or be a long term project.
Hospitals are not being overrun by obese people, or cancer patients or whatever because, over a period their operating capacity is devised around those conditions in the population.
Add a pandemic to the mix and those calculations go out the window.
It’s very much a case of people arguing stuff that falls into the trap where the perfect becomes the enemy of the good.
Getting a vaccination, short of a pill is a close to the easiest, biggest bang for your buck medical intervention you can have. It’s easy to track subsequently too.
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Vaccination reducing the severe effects of covid is not arbitrary. There is a clear link from a year of real-world data + vaccine trials.
I don't know wtf gotunk was smoking when that was written.
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I believe the point is to identify the highest risk factor of serious COVID infection, and formulate targeted solutions to address that risk.
Yes, vaccination is a critical factor. But vaccinated people are still vulnerable. What if the data show that the higher risk factor is age and existing comorbidities? If so, why not focus vaccination and other mitigating measures (more boosters, regular testing, isolation, advisories against attending mass gatherings, WFH exemptions, etc) on these people? Whilst vaccination was the only effective way to curb the spread of the pandemic in the early days, the situation has somewhat stabilised for more targeted approaches to be taken.
Anyway, I don't know exactly what the data really shows. But it's becoming clear that current vaccination is not foolproof, and more should be done to really analyse the data and come up with more concrete plans (other than mandating jabs).
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EPT
