EPTCoronavirus and You - Page 233
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Any and all updates regarding the COVID-19 will need a source provided. Please do your part in helping us to keep this thread maintainable and under control. It is YOUR responsibility to fully read through the sources that you link, and you MUST provide a brief summary explaining what the source is about. Do not expect other people to do the work for you. Conspiracy theories and fear mongering will absolutely not be tolerated in this thread. Expect harsh mod actions if you try to incite fear needlessly. This is not a politics thread! You are allowed to post information regarding politics if it's related to the coronavirus, but do NOT discuss politics in here. Added a disclaimer on page 662. Many need to post better. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
So they did a study where robots took pictures of speeding cars and they found that blacks were speeding more. And that the effect was greater at greater speeds (as in >25MPH over). | ||
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Fleetfeet
Canada2802 Posts
On August 18 2020 08:22 JimmiC wrote: To be clear before I look up the research or someone else does. You belive that being Hispanic or black makes you more likely to commit crime than Caucasian's? Are Asians somewhere in between or better or worse? I actually doubt statistics will back you up here, because clean statistics regarding what you're talking about (crime rate exclusively by race) likely don't exist. Where I might get a slap on the wrist for smoking pot, a rugged looking native dude might get charged for posession. Racial profiling kinda ruins the stats. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
If the gaps were caused by things like selective enforcement, the gap would be smaller for crimes that are more "objective" like murder. The opposite is true, murder is the crime where racial gaps are the largest. If you don't think the same thinking patterns cause bad choices across the board, that's fair I suppose, but I think they are more likely related than not. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On August 18 2020 08:46 cLutZ wrote: I don't know the cause, I'm simply saying your factual assertion was totally wrong which means your policy prescriptions will be wrong. For example, back in the early 2000s New Jersey thought it had a racism problem with its state troopers. They were pulling over black people way more often than their population statistics would indicate they should. So they did a study where robots took pictures of speeding cars and they found that blacks were speeding more. And that the effect was greater at greater speeds (as in >25MPH over). it is possible to pull over black people disproportionately for speeding and have black people speed more often. Now, it is also possible that your conclusion can be drawn from the study but I am too lazy to read it atm. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On August 18 2020 09:59 Anc13nt wrote: it is possible to pull over black people disproportionately for speeding and have black people speed more often. Now, it is also possible that your conclusion can be drawn from the study but I am too lazy to read it atm. You are too lazy to read a NYT summary of a study? What even is the point of trying to engage with someone then? All I am seeing from this is that a lot of people appear to be aggressively uniformed/misinformed. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
Just encourage people to wear masks, social distance, segregate the elderly, and try to get indoor businesses to enforce mask use and distancing (which can have high compliance due to social costs, rather than top-down enforcement consequences). I don't really know the differences between crime distribution in Europe compared to America to comment on that aspect. Just the approaches from "it worked in Europe" tells me people expect high compliance much more in European nations. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24190 Posts
NYC tried the punitive route and it resulted in what most would expect (though clutz would offer a different explanation than myself) which is disproportionate enforcement and punishment for Black residents vs white residents. Citywide, black people make up 68 percent of those arrested on charges of violating social-distancing rules, while Hispanic people make up 24 percent, a deputy police commissioner, Richard Esposito, said late on Thursday night. Just 7 percent of those arrested were white, he said, confirming data reported late on Thursday night by WCBS. www.nytimes.com | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On August 18 2020 10:44 cLutZ wrote: You are too lazy to read a NYT summary of a study? What even is the point of trying to engage with someone then? All I am seeing from this is that a lot of people appear to be aggressively uniformed/misinformed. my mistake, didn't know the article was that short. I was assuming it would be a lot larger. I've read it and I wonder how you have come to the conclusion that blacks are not being disproportionately pulled over for speeding. Can you demonstrate why you think this using the data in the article? Recall that I was not arguing for the other side; I simply thought that your position did not appear sufficiently justified by the article you gave. All you have shown is that black people speed more and they get pulled over for it more. But my point earlier is that blacks can speed twice as much and be pulled over thrice as much and there would still be discrimination or at least some sort of unfairness. Edit: But since the article is missing a lot of data on the stats/demographics of the driving on the southern segment and the northern segment, I don't see enough information in the article to conclude in one direction or another. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On August 18 2020 11:55 Anc13nt wrote: my mistake, didn't know the article was that short. I was assuming it would be a lot larger. I've read it and I wonder how you have come to the conclusion that blacks are not being disproportionately pulled over for speeding. Can you demonstrate why you think this using the data in the article? Blacks can speed twice as much and be pulled over thrice as much and there would still be discrimination or at least some sort of unfairness. Edit: But since the article is missing a lot of data on the stats/demographics of the driving on the southern segment and the northern segment, I don't see enough information in the article to conclude in one direction or another. Its right there in the article. Blacks were 16% of drivers, 25% of speeders, and 23% of those subject to traffic stops. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On August 18 2020 12:07 cLutZ wrote: Its right there in the article. Blacks were 16% of drivers, 25% of speeders, and 23% of those subject to traffic stops. Not quite. It says blacks were 16% of drivers of the turnpike, and 25% of speeders in the 65 mph zone (a part of the turnpike) though. Honestly, I read the sentence the same way you did and I wonder if the writer of the article just messed up and accidentally created confusion. We don't know about the 55 mph zone, though (where they are less likely to speed). Also, the 23% is not from the study so it's a different source of information and it is a disputed figure according to the rest of the paragraph. Another source says 27% and some think that is a low estimate. Anyway, there is inaccuracy that is inherent to stitching together sources to make conclusions. My point is that this study really doesn't adequately conclude whether blacks are discriminated or not when it comes to being pulled over for speeding. I will concede that the data shows there likely isn't a massive problem when it comes to discrimination if there is one. Besides, the study has considerable flaws and only covers a turnpike in New Jersey. The problem could be better or worse in other states (I imagine it'd be worse in red states). | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On August 18 2020 12:20 Anc13nt wrote: Not quite. It says blacks were 16% of drivers of the turnpike, and 25% of speeders in the 65 mph zone (a part of the turnpike) though. Honestly, I read the sentence the same way you did and I wonder if the writer of the article just messed up and accidentally created confusion. We don't know about the 55 mph zone, though (where they are less likely to speed). Also, the 23% is not from the study so it's a different source of information and it is a disputed figure according to the rest of the paragraph. Another source says 27% and some think that is a low estimate. Anyway, there is inaccuracy that is inherent to stitching together sources to make conclusions. My point is that this study really doesn't adequately conclude whether blacks are discriminated or not when it comes to being pulled over for speeding. I will concede that the data shows there likely isn't a massive problem when it comes to discrimination if there is one. Besides, the study has considerable flaws and only covers a turnpike in New Jersey. The problem could be better or worse in other states (I imagine it'd be worse in red states). The problem isn't really whether GH or I have a better theory of why the crime stats are different, its that Jimmi (and seemingly many others) didn't even know the underlying fundamental stats! And not only that, stridently asserting them with such confidence as "It almost every time is." When that's not just wrong, its wrong a lot. If so many people are wrong about those simple and basic facts, what's the point of engaging them on something like C19 where getting good information means being months ahead of mainstream center left media like the NYT or Brookings (which we don't even know if people are even getting that bare minimum level of information)? | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
Also pretty certain that most right wing medias aren't the place to look for valuable information but that has no effect in that argument, does it ? | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On August 18 2020 14:04 Erasme wrote: Why did you link a story on how wealth doesn't change how police view black youth ? Also pretty certain that most right wing medias aren't the place to look for valuable information but that has no effect in that argument, does it ? 1. The 2nd article is just spin on the fact that rich black kids are imprisoned at higher rates than poor white kids. I posted those two articles to show one doesn't even need to leave left of center publications to have known that poverty explaining racial differences in XXX is not the case. 2. Depends what you consider right wing. The WSJ is easily the nation's best newspaper, largely because they went to a subscription model first and thus were able to retain their best people, whereas most other places hemorrhaged talent for a while which they've replaced with cub reporters who have no mentors, and have driven some woke uprisings. The WSJ recently posted what I think is the most persuasive case for opening schools. I won't link it because likely so few of you have the subscription that a link would be useless. 2a. If you go further right, there is lots of good journalism, and the benefit of it is they admit they are partisan as opposed to being like Brian Stelter and pretending you are just calling balls and strikes. Think of the people who got the Russia investigation correct the earliest, they were all from right of center publications that are a bit loosey goosey. 2b. But I'm not saying you just need those sources, I follow many sources out of the mainstream because the mainstream is slow. Far right and far left twitter were saying to shut down flights into the US in January. Less Wrong's community is quite informative on most things medical, and Covid is no different. They seem to be ahead of the curve as it were. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany7338 Posts
Come on guys... | ||
zatic
Zurich15366 Posts
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CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2847 Posts
On August 18 2020 17:29 Harris1st wrote: ehhmmm... was coming here to check some new Covid reports and all I read is stuff about crimes, speeding and how it corelates to skin color? Come on guys... It is actually very logical. There is a lot of cognitive dissonance if you are a republican right now so if you want to justify supporting Trump right now you need to somehow make a case for the US to have exceptional characteristics so that you can belive that it was handled as well as possible. Given to current situation that is a shit load of hoops to jump through. The trend seems to be to argue that people in the US are to free (and/or poor and black) so it is basically impossible to do any measures to restrict the spread anyway. Or rather Trump has done a great job and it would be a lot worse otherwise because the dems would have tried things that were done in other countries that could never work in the US. It is the virus version of mass shootings basically. | ||
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Garbels
Austria653 Posts
And that is articles talking at length about studies without linking them or at least mention the name+autors so I can find it myself. If an article omits these things it has lost all value to me and this happens so often in covid times. Best to assume the conclusions in the article are eather strongly exaggerated or outright falsified by ulterior motives or incompetency. If its legit, and that is surely possible, it will pop up again. Of course simply linking the study/source does not make the article automatically correct. You still have to check (the validity of the study and the conclusions of the article). | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
In the US, a few states or areas have tried starting schools back up. Tons of examples of 100+ kids infected within the first week. The schools that are opening, seem to be closing pretty quickly. Here's how I see it: 1. College students have already shown they are not safe enough to re-open universities because they are wildly entitled and immature. 2. Students younger than college are probably not more trustworthy. 3. If students get sick, and we already know kids transmit well to adults, that means adults will get sick. 4. If adults are getting sick, businesses will have to close down again. Conclusion: Opening schools does not have the desired benefit of allowing more businesses to reopen. Where am I wrong? | ||
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