EPTSouth American Politics thread - Page 44
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Mo_tx
26 Posts
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On November 12 2019 01:59 Mo_tx wrote: To be fair, Morales has been democratically elected 3 times. the third time after ignoring a referendum that would have barred him from even running. That alone is enough to put him into the category of aspiring tinpot despot, not to mention the cartoonish election irregularities this time around. Even the largest labour union in the country came out in opposition to Morales, I'm not really sure in what world organised labour is suddenly right-wing but these coup calls in particular by western politicians like Corbyn are just cringeworthy. Him stepping down is clearly a win for democracy, it's good to see that the police and the military stood with the people and that civil society ousted him before he could entrench himself further. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24369 Posts
On November 12 2019 02:38 Nyxisto wrote: the third time after ignoring a referendum that would have barred him from even running. That alone is enough to put him into the category of aspiring tinpot despot, not to mention the cartoonish election irregularities this time around. Even the largest labour union in the country came out in opposition to Morales, I'm not really sure in what world organised labour is suddenly right-wing but these coup calls in particular by western politicians like Corbyn are just cringeworthy. Him stepping down is clearly a win for democracy, it's good to see that the police and the military stood with the people and that civil society ousted him before he could entrench himself further. Win for democracy and glad to see the military and police push out the leader instead of having an election in order to clear the way for someone more willing to steal from poor people in the country so western corporations can profit. okay... _______________________________________________________________________________________________ Reports are that a group of officials in Mexico are trying to get Mexico to leave the OAS for coordinating the "Bolivian coup" CDMX.- We are told that a group of deputies from Morena , are already preparing a point of agreement to request the Mexican government, particularly the Ministry of Foreign Affairs (SRE), to leave the Organization of American States ( OAS ), for having, according to they, coordinated the "Bolivian coup" and overthrow a legitimate government like that of Evo Morales . www.eluniversal.com.mx Also that Mexico will be offering Morales asylum because of threats he faces in Bolivia. | ||
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des
United States507 Posts
Supreme court struck down the term limit (that is, he ran legally): https://www.reuters.com/article/us-bolivia-politics/bolivian-court-clears-way-for-morales-to-run-for-fourth-term-idUSKBN1DS2ZX Indigenous and working class Bolivians (Morales's core support) are marching in support of him: Morales offered new elections in response to the OAS claims of fraud in order to have a fair election: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-bolivia-election-morales/bolivian-president-morales-calls-for-new-elections-after-oas-audit-idUSKBN1XK0AK Meanwhile his opposition rejects his democratic offers and instead turns to a coup (literally a coup, he was the legally elected president, they had an opportunity to beat him in an election and instead turned to the army to force him from power), and the westernized world calls this a victory for democracy. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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des
United States507 Posts
If the will of the people is Morales three times, four times, one hundred times, then that is democracy. That is the definition of democracy. There are elections every five years, if Morales is worse than his opposition in the eyes of his people, that is the venue set forth in all extant democracies to make that call and they can end his presidency there. Democracy is not when an opposition party ousts the winner of an election via military pressure. Do you believe that democracy is found in the rejection of the rule of law and electoralism and instead in violence in the streets? Would the US have been more democratic if we turned to violence after Bush v. Gore? Does the political alignment of the military outweigh the will of the people? EDIT: Or, since you bring up Trump, should the military have coerced Trump's resignation based on unproven claims of election tampering by Democrats? | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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des
United States507 Posts
Please respond to those points instead of a strawman conspiracy theorist. I am making two assertions: 1) Military/police demanding and obtaining the resignation of an elected leader is a coup. 2) Military/police demanding and obtaining the resignation of an elected leader is antithetical to the democratic process, and should not be called a victory of democracy. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12559 Posts
As for Bolivia, well, another example that in order to truly get socialism we need to start from one of the biggest superpowers, otherwise "democracy" will keep "winning" in the same fashion. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12559 Posts
Oh, wait, you're still backing a coup? That's... let's say "interesting". | ||
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On November 12 2019 09:28 Nebuchad wrote:... we can just have new elections.... Oh, wait, you're still backing a coup? That's... let's say "interesting". Given the following quote, would you care to explain how you came to the above conclusion? On November 12 2019 08:54 JimmiC wrote:... now all the people, Morales followers included should fight to make sure there are safe, free elections and respect the results when they happen. Hopefully the UN or someone both can agree too can monitor to make sure they are. | ||
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des
United States507 Posts
If Morales had to play cloak and dagger to win, why did he offer another election after allegations of fraud were raised? This election would have had more scrutiny and if, as you say, he clearly would have lost a fair election, what does he stand to gain. Why did the opposition reject this? | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12559 Posts
On November 12 2019 09:32 Aquanim wrote: Given the following quote, would you care to explain how you came to the above conclusion? Hey Jimmi Aquanim thinks that I'm misrepresenting your position when I say you're fine with the military ousting Morales so that democracy can prevail, would you care to set me straight? | ||
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des
United States507 Posts
On November 12 2019 09:32 Aquanim wrote: Given the following quote, would you care to explain how you came to the above conclusion? Given that he offered a new set of elections and they were declined by the opposition, anyone in support of free and fair elections should logically want another election w/ monitoring. Supporting the opposition in their current actions is supporting a coup. Why would the pro-democracy side reject an election? | ||
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des
United States507 Posts
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
The issue here is simply that Morales is a sort of messianic figure in particular for the far-left in the west, so just like with Cuba or Venezuela they'll ignore corruption or lack of due process or anti-democratic behaviour for political ends. The same has also been true for right-wing dictators in latin america and both is reprehensible. The only right position is to support the rule of law, transparent elections and the will of the people (that is all the people) which Morales had lost, including allies. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12559 Posts
If you were in this for democracy, you would be fine with new elections with oversight so that we can trust the results (even though, again, those results are consistent with polling and there's no evidence that anything fraudulent has happened, which is probably why Morales is okay with new elections btw). But that's not what's happening. Instead a coup happened, and you're backing it. This isn't one of those ones where it's kind of hard to see who has the right facts like the Maduro one. This one is very clear. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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