South American Politics thread - Page 21
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States22715 Posts
On May 02 2019 06:11 JimmiC wrote: from just your summary it looks like some similarities to maduro and the military. This is a point I've been trying to make for a while so I'm happy. As to your comment, no the US scores not great, it is in the same category as Brazil as a flawed democracy as well and is dropping. Outside of the US people dont see things as going well. And there are concerns that it will continue to slide. That was kinda my point. That the US isn't in a position to work on other countries level of democracy and that democracies like Brazil or the US can be arguably overrun by relatively small foreign operations. For context: + Show Spoiler + On May 02 2019 05:49 GreenHorizons wrote: "democracy ratings" are a good place to start but are not always accurate. I'm sure the US scores pretty high on them as well and the last two years have been non-stop coverage of how a foreign country may have made Trump president despite his lack of popularity. Bolsonaro may be less popular than Trump depending on how you measure but you're right it's largely characterized as a "populist win" www.nytimes.com Many reports suggest Brazilian government is actually run by the military and Bolsonaro takes orders. He's put generals in charge of many main industries and a general recently admitted to threatening the supreme court to imprison Lula. therealnews.com On his ties to assasinations I was thinking of: www.theguardian.com | ||
JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States22715 Posts
On May 02 2019 06:41 JimmiC wrote: So if a new upstart was claiming that Brazils election was a fraud and the world agreed and supported him, and bolsonaro was ordering his military(or agreeing with them) to kill people who protested. You would advise them to have talks? If you're asking if I would oppose the US doing in Brazil what they are doing in Venezuela it should be abundantly clear (I've answered some form of this question several times now) the answer is: of course. Why do you think you'd get a different answer this time? | ||
pmh
1351 Posts
I did not understand this a few weeks ago either when he declared himself president after the elections. Not saying he should be arrested btw,,just to be clear. | ||
JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States22715 Posts
On May 02 2019 07:17 JimmiC wrote: But the US isnt doing anything in Venezuela other than verbally supporting Guaido. But no need to go round and round again I guess. then you say On May 02 2019 07:18 JimmiC wrote: As the leader of congress he has the constitutional right to do this. But more then that the US europe canada and over 60 other countries have said hands off or penalty of war. So by "nothing" you mean threatening war should Maduro arrest someone who has conspired to remove him from power (pretty standard fare around the world for a leader, regardless of legitimacy, to do). Lula in Brazil was arrested for much less (if anything more than threats from the military) for example. | ||
pmh
1351 Posts
On May 02 2019 07:18 JimmiC wrote: As the leader of congress he has the constitutional right to do this. But more then that the US europe canada and over 60 other countries have said hands off or penalty of war. I did not know that but even then I still don't understand. If foreign countries have that kind of leverage then why don't they force him to resign directly instead? It makes no sense to me that he has not been arrested,keeping him around is hardly better from maduro,s &co perspective? It keeps the whole situation unstable and if quaido is not going to stop till maduro resigns then what is the future plan (for both sides). Like in any other country,even the usa or Europe,he would have been arrested. I guess there is a lot more going on then the news that makes the headlines here. | ||
JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States22715 Posts
On May 02 2019 08:24 JimmiC wrote: That operation was pretty major and international so im not sure less. "pretty major" by what metrics? And I would hope the world would try to protect someone from arrest and torture and murder, of him and his family to try to restore democracy anywhere. Are you familiar with Jamal Khashoggi? Your position is logically incongruent. I think I've pretty comprehensively demonstrated the inverse is true. | ||
JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Aceace
Turkey1305 Posts
On May 02 2019 04:05 JimmiC wrote: I believe that Brazil is still a democracy so there is hope to get rid of him that way at some point at least for now. I think the bigger issue is that there is so many people that agree with him. How do you educate (I'm sure there is a better word but it is all I can think of) the public so that they find him as despicable as you and I do. No... When people decide to elect a "strongman" democracy dies instantly. I know.. I experienced it first hand. | ||
Godwrath
Spain10109 Posts
On May 02 2019 08:27 JimmiC wrote: Tell that to the Catalonian politicians who are in jail right now.No if this happened in europe it would go to a court they both agree to challenge the election and long before that maduro would have been arrested for corruption. Here Maduro is authoritarian dictator so he makes all the rules and since he pays off the military they stand by him. If you want more details you can read lots of the article s that have been posted or even the wikipedia page is not bad for an overview. | ||
JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States22715 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States22715 Posts
On May 02 2019 12:53 JimmiC wrote: Mainly because it is tiring to write out exactly who does and who doesnt. Of those who have weighed in which is about 75 it is 65-10 or so and of the 65 they are all democracy's and of the 10 there is like 2. If you would like I can write them all out again. Might be a useful excerise since it is not just you and me. Ill do it tomorrow for you. It's 65 - ~130 with 130 not recognizing Guaido. EDIT: realized I shouldn't trust your numbers presuming you wouldn't get it wrong. The only one I found with 65 supporting Guaido had 50 supporting Maduro, not 10 as you say. But the United Nations, which still recognises Nicolas Maduro as Venezuela's president, has called for talks. About 50 UN-member countries have pledged their support to Maduro, while 65 countries, including the US, stand behind the opposition leader, Juan Guaido, who has declared himself interim president. www.aljazeera.com | ||
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