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On May 02 2019 15:22 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2019 13:06 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 02 2019 12:53 JimmiC wrote:On May 02 2019 12:07 GreenHorizons wrote:
You keep saying "the world agrees" as if the overwhelming majority of countries in the world haven't agreed that Guaido is a legitimate interim president. Mainly because it is tiring to write out exactly who does and who doesnt. Of those who have weighed in which is about 75 it is 65-10 or so and of the 65 they are all democracy's and of the 10 there is like 2. If you would like I can write them all out again. Might be a useful excerise since it is not just you and me. Ill do it tomorrow for you. It's 65 - ~130 with 130 not recognizing Guaido. EDIT: realized I shouldn't trust your numbers presuming you wouldn't get it wrong. The only one I found with 65 supporting Guaido had 50 supporting Maduro, not 10 as you say. But the United Nations, which still recognises Nicolas Maduro as Venezuela's president, has called for talks.
About 50 UN-member countries have pledged their support to Maduro, while 65 countries, including the US, stand behind the opposition leader, Juan Guaido, who has declared himself interim president. www.aljazeera.com To the first part of your comment: Come on man you can't take all the countries in the world and subtract the ones that support Guaido and say the rest support Maduro. I would never take the total number of countries and subtract the rest and say these guys all support Guaido. Some have chosen not to say anything, some are neutral and so on don't be so disingenuous, it doesn't "trick me" it just is another blow to your already shaky credibility.
Let's focus just on your opening sentence
If you're going to insist on responding to my posts in this general manner I need you to more carefully read what you respond to.
Come on man you can't take all the countries in the world and subtract the ones that support Guaido and say the rest support Maduro.
I DID NOT do that... I said:
It's 65 - ~130 with 130 not recognizing Guaido.
I used your 65 number and then used the only source I could find with it and discovered you had artificially reduced the reported number of countries supporting Maduro (and inflated the number supporting Guaido) according to the report and your own sources.
Now the next mistake you made was not correctly interpreting the literal meaning of the words I posted.
Whether "not recognizing" and "supporting Maduro" has any material difference in the real world is one issue, but as a matter of fact, beyond dispute, is that well over 100 countries (over 130 according to your source) DO NOT recognize Guaido as interim president.
There's literally no way to have a good faith discussion with you if you refuse to recognize the meaning of the words I post and try to insult ME for it.
EDIT: Possibly just as important, YOU are doing what you are accusing me of by repeatedly saying that "the world" in reference to the ~49 countries that actually recognize Guaido as interim president, or however many you're saying call for elections, or whatever your position is at any given moment.
Everything that the world and Venezuelans have asked for is on the table and easy for Maduro to do.
He could call elections like the rest of the world has asked is an option.
the world agreed and they (Guaido) made a constitutional claim
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JimmiC's original post giving numbers specified "of those who have weighed in".
On May 02 2019 12:53 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2019 12:07 GreenHorizons wrote:
You keep saying "the world agrees" as if the overwhelming majority of countries in the world haven't agreed that Guaido is a legitimate interim president. Mainly because it is tiring to write out exactly who does and who doesnt. Of those who have weighed in which is about 75 it is 65-10 or so and of the 65 they are all democracy's and of the 10 there is like 2. If you would like I can write them all out again. Might be a useful excerise since it is not just you and me. Ill do it tomorrow for you.
In the next post
On May 02 2019 13:06 GreenHorizons wrote:...
It's 65 - ~130 with 130 not recognizing Guaido.
...
GreenHorizons implicitly phrased his post as a correction of JimmiC, implying that his 130 number should replace JimmiC's 10 and that his criteria of "not recognizing Guaido" is in some way analogous to JimmiC's "weighed in and recognised Maduro".
+ Show Spoiler +On May 02 2019 12:07 GreenHorizons wrote:
You keep saying "the world agrees" as if the overwhelming majority of countries in the world haven't agreed that Guaido is a legitimate interim president. The conversation started with this post that doesn't say what I think GreenHorizons meant it to say, which likely has caused further confusion.
Perhaps JimmiC should say "many of the democratic nations of the world" rather than "the world", but I think it is understandable for him not to place much weight on the opinions of authoritarian states.
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On May 02 2019 19:43 Aquanim wrote:JimmiC's original post giving numbers specified "of those who have weighed in". Show nested quote +On May 02 2019 12:53 JimmiC wrote:On May 02 2019 12:07 GreenHorizons wrote:
You keep saying "the world agrees" as if the overwhelming majority of countries in the world haven't agreed that Guaido is a legitimate interim president. Mainly because it is tiring to write out exactly who does and who doesnt. Of those who have weighed in which is about 75 it is 65-10 or so and of the 65 they are all democracy's and of the 10 there is like 2. If you would like I can write them all out again. Might be a useful excerise since it is not just you and me. Ill do it tomorrow for you. In the next post Show nested quote +On May 02 2019 13:06 GreenHorizons wrote:...
It's 65 - ~130 with 130 not recognizing Guaido.
... GreenHorizons changed the criteria to "recognize Guaido vs. not recognise Guaido" without explicitly drawing attention to the fact that he was doing so to make his argument look better. Some confusion on this point seems like an unsurprising outcome. + Show Spoiler +On May 02 2019 12:07 GreenHorizons wrote:
You keep saying "the world agrees" as if the overwhelming majority of countries in the world haven't agreed that Guaido is a legitimate interim president. The conversation started with this post that doesn't say what I think GreenHorizons meant it to say, which likely has caused further confusion. Perhaps JimmiC should say "most of the democratic nations of the world" rather than "the world", but I think it is understandable for him not to place much weight on the opinions of authoritarian states.
I didn't change it though (granting that he didn't think I was arguing that the overwhelming majority of countries did recognize Guaido as president).
I can't say what he should say but "the world" is wrong AND being used to make his argument look better.
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On May 02 2019 11:11 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2019 10:40 Godwrath wrote:On May 02 2019 08:27 JimmiC wrote:On May 02 2019 08:06 pmh wrote:On May 02 2019 07:18 JimmiC wrote:On May 02 2019 07:11 pmh wrote:
What i dont understand is why quaido has not been arrested yet.
I did not understand this a few weeks ago either when he declared himself president after the elections.
Not saying he should be arrested btw,,just to be clear. As the leader of congress he has the constitutional right to do this. But more then that the US europe canada and over 60 other countries have said hands off or penalty of war. I did not know that but even then I still don't understand. If foreign countries have that kind of leverage then why don't they force him to resign directly instead? It makes no sense to me that he has not been arrested,keeping him around is hardly better from maduro,s &co perspective? It keeps the whole situation unstable and if quaido is not going to stop till maduro resigns then what is the future plan (for both sides). Like in any other country,even the usa or Europe,he would have been arrested. I guess there is a lot more going on then the news that makes the headlines here. No if this happened in europe it would go to a court they both agree to challenge the election and long before that maduro would have been arrested for corruption. Here Maduro is authoritarian dictator so he makes all the rules and since he pays off the military they stand by him. If you want more details you can read lots of the article s that have been posted or even the wikipedia page is not bad for an overview. Tell that to the Catalonian politicians who are in jail right now. Sorry I dont know enough about the Catalonian situation. The Catalonians feel that the Spanish election was corrupt, the world agreed and they made a constitutional claim that new elections were required and then thwy were put in jail? I was under the impression that had to do with seperation not a challenege of the legitimacy of the election. In Canada we have had a referendom in Quebec about separating and Alberta has a seperation party. So I thought it was more like that than the situation in Venezuela. Can you explain the comparassion you are making? I can see the Turkey the comparrison as pretty apt though but I was meaning members of the EU and was not clear. Turkey supports Maduro just like every other dictator.
You are claiming that a corrupt goverment would be taken down before it was able to jail its political opponents in Europe. And i provided you an example. And yes the independentists think of Spain as a corrupt entity that strangles their efforts for progress, and it was not far from truth since that goverment had had a lot of cases of corruption which turned out in the goverment losing a no-confidence vote later on.
They are still in jail tho.
If i were you, i would leave out any "the world agrees on", "western sphere agrees". It's silly. If we are talking about scientific consensus it would be fine, if we are talking about powerful interests converging and pretend that's the ethos to follow, not so much.
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On May 03 2019 00:45 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2019 16:49 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 02 2019 15:22 JimmiC wrote:On May 02 2019 13:06 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 02 2019 12:53 JimmiC wrote:On May 02 2019 12:07 GreenHorizons wrote:
You keep saying "the world agrees" as if the overwhelming majority of countries in the world haven't agreed that Guaido is a legitimate interim president. Mainly because it is tiring to write out exactly who does and who doesnt. Of those who have weighed in which is about 75 it is 65-10 or so and of the 65 they are all democracy's and of the 10 there is like 2. If you would like I can write them all out again. Might be a useful excerise since it is not just you and me. Ill do it tomorrow for you. It's 65 - ~130 with 130 not recognizing Guaido. EDIT: realized I shouldn't trust your numbers presuming you wouldn't get it wrong. The only one I found with 65 supporting Guaido had 50 supporting Maduro, not 10 as you say. But the United Nations, which still recognises Nicolas Maduro as Venezuela's president, has called for talks.
About 50 UN-member countries have pledged their support to Maduro, while 65 countries, including the US, stand behind the opposition leader, Juan Guaido, who has declared himself interim president. www.aljazeera.com To the first part of your comment: Come on man you can't take all the countries in the world and subtract the ones that support Guaido and say the rest support Maduro. I would never take the total number of countries and subtract the rest and say these guys all support Guaido. Some have chosen not to say anything, some are neutral and so on don't be so disingenuous, it doesn't "trick me" it just is another blow to your already shaky credibility. Let's focus just on your opening sentence If you're going to insist on responding to my posts in this general manner I need you to more carefully read what you respond to. Come on man you can't take all the countries in the world and subtract the ones that support Guaido and say the rest support Maduro. I DID NOT do that... I said: It's 65 - ~130 with 130 not recognizing Guaido. I used your 65 number and then used the only source I could find with it and discovered you had artificially reduced the reported number of countries supporting Maduro (and inflated the number supporting Guaido) according to the report and your own sources. Now the next mistake you made was not correctly interpreting the literal meaning of the words I posted. Whether "not recognizing" and "supporting Maduro" has any material difference in the real world is one issue, but as a matter of fact, beyond dispute, is that well over 100 countries (over 130 according to your source) DO NOT recognize Guaido as interim president. There's literally no way to have a good faith discussion with you if you refuse to recognize the meaning of the words I post and try to insult ME for it. EDIT: Possibly just as important, YOU are doing what you are accusing me of by repeatedly saying that "the world" in reference to the ~49 countries that actually recognize Guaido as interim president, or however many you're saying call for elections, or whatever your position is at any given moment. Everything that the world and Venezuelans have asked for is on the table and easy for Maduro to do. He could call elections like the rest of the world has asked is an option.
the world agreed and they (Guaido) made a constitutional claim I read what you wrote, but we know what you inferring. Or hoping others would infer. I wouldn't say that 11% of countries of the world support Maduro even though that would apparently be as factually accurate as you require, because it would still be dishonest. And you totally are dodging the absolute BS that your source was, because there is nothing factually accurate about that. Do you now agree it was bullshit? Do you agree with the list I have provided?
This is why I think there is no way to have a good faith discussion with you. You read it, but intentionally distorted it. There's no where to go from here.
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On May 03 2019 05:51 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2019 04:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 03 2019 00:45 JimmiC wrote:On May 02 2019 16:49 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 02 2019 15:22 JimmiC wrote:On May 02 2019 13:06 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 02 2019 12:53 JimmiC wrote:On May 02 2019 12:07 GreenHorizons wrote:
You keep saying "the world agrees" as if the overwhelming majority of countries in the world haven't agreed that Guaido is a legitimate interim president. Mainly because it is tiring to write out exactly who does and who doesnt. Of those who have weighed in which is about 75 it is 65-10 or so and of the 65 they are all democracy's and of the 10 there is like 2. If you would like I can write them all out again. Might be a useful excerise since it is not just you and me. Ill do it tomorrow for you. It's 65 - ~130 with 130 not recognizing Guaido. EDIT: realized I shouldn't trust your numbers presuming you wouldn't get it wrong. The only one I found with 65 supporting Guaido had 50 supporting Maduro, not 10 as you say. But the United Nations, which still recognises Nicolas Maduro as Venezuela's president, has called for talks.
About 50 UN-member countries have pledged their support to Maduro, while 65 countries, including the US, stand behind the opposition leader, Juan Guaido, who has declared himself interim president. www.aljazeera.com To the first part of your comment: Come on man you can't take all the countries in the world and subtract the ones that support Guaido and say the rest support Maduro. I would never take the total number of countries and subtract the rest and say these guys all support Guaido. Some have chosen not to say anything, some are neutral and so on don't be so disingenuous, it doesn't "trick me" it just is another blow to your already shaky credibility. Let's focus just on your opening sentence If you're going to insist on responding to my posts in this general manner I need you to more carefully read what you respond to. Come on man you can't take all the countries in the world and subtract the ones that support Guaido and say the rest support Maduro. I DID NOT do that... I said: It's 65 - ~130 with 130 not recognizing Guaido. I used your 65 number and then used the only source I could find with it and discovered you had artificially reduced the reported number of countries supporting Maduro (and inflated the number supporting Guaido) according to the report and your own sources. Now the next mistake you made was not correctly interpreting the literal meaning of the words I posted. Whether "not recognizing" and "supporting Maduro" has any material difference in the real world is one issue, but as a matter of fact, beyond dispute, is that well over 100 countries (over 130 according to your source) DO NOT recognize Guaido as interim president. There's literally no way to have a good faith discussion with you if you refuse to recognize the meaning of the words I post and try to insult ME for it. EDIT: Possibly just as important, YOU are doing what you are accusing me of by repeatedly saying that "the world" in reference to the ~49 countries that actually recognize Guaido as interim president, or however many you're saying call for elections, or whatever your position is at any given moment. Everything that the world and Venezuelans have asked for is on the table and easy for Maduro to do. He could call elections like the rest of the world has asked is an option.
the world agreed and they (Guaido) made a constitutional claim I read what you wrote, but we know what you inferring. Or hoping others would infer. I wouldn't say that 11% of countries of the world support Maduro even though that would apparently be as factually accurate as you require, because it would still be dishonest. And you totally are dodging the absolute BS that your source was, because there is nothing factually accurate about that. Do you now agree it was bullshit? Do you agree with the list I have provided? This is why I think there is no way to have a good faith discussion with you. You read it, but intentionally distorted it. There's no where to go from here. You are completely lying right now. To make my position clear and why I thought that way I spent a ton of time and went into extreme detail. You put up, what I'm now confident, is a bullshit source because generally you jump down my throat about these sorts of things.
You're still doing it. I told you the source I provided was the only one I saw that had the 65 number you no longer believe is accurate (despite you being the one to originally put it forward without a source at all).
You on the other hand have posted clearly false information
The 65 number literally came from you, then I looked for a source since you didn't provide one. jfc
I asked why you kept saying "the world" and your response was:
Mainly because it is tiring to write out exactly who does and who doesnt. Of those who have weighed in which is about 75 it is 65-10 or so and of the 65 they are all democracy's
And now you're blaming me for finding a source for the false information (according to you) that YOU posted. That is textbook logical inconsistency. It's a lie by your own metrics/sources.
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On May 03 2019 09:15 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2019 05:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 03 2019 05:51 JimmiC wrote:On May 03 2019 04:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 03 2019 00:45 JimmiC wrote:On May 02 2019 16:49 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 02 2019 15:22 JimmiC wrote:On May 02 2019 13:06 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 02 2019 12:53 JimmiC wrote:On May 02 2019 12:07 GreenHorizons wrote:
You keep saying "the world agrees" as if the overwhelming majority of countries in the world haven't agreed that Guaido is a legitimate interim president. Mainly because it is tiring to write out exactly who does and who doesnt. Of those who have weighed in which is about 75 it is 65-10 or so and of the 65 they are all democracy's and of the 10 there is like 2. If you would like I can write them all out again. Might be a useful excerise since it is not just you and me. Ill do it tomorrow for you. It's 65 - ~130 with 130 not recognizing Guaido. EDIT: realized I shouldn't trust your numbers presuming you wouldn't get it wrong. The only one I found with 65 supporting Guaido had 50 supporting Maduro, not 10 as you say. But the United Nations, which still recognises Nicolas Maduro as Venezuela's president, has called for talks.
About 50 UN-member countries have pledged their support to Maduro, while 65 countries, including the US, stand behind the opposition leader, Juan Guaido, who has declared himself interim president. www.aljazeera.com To the first part of your comment: Come on man you can't take all the countries in the world and subtract the ones that support Guaido and say the rest support Maduro. I would never take the total number of countries and subtract the rest and say these guys all support Guaido. Some have chosen not to say anything, some are neutral and so on don't be so disingenuous, it doesn't "trick me" it just is another blow to your already shaky credibility. Let's focus just on your opening sentence If you're going to insist on responding to my posts in this general manner I need you to more carefully read what you respond to. Come on man you can't take all the countries in the world and subtract the ones that support Guaido and say the rest support Maduro. I DID NOT do that... I said: It's 65 - ~130 with 130 not recognizing Guaido. I used your 65 number and then used the only source I could find with it and discovered you had artificially reduced the reported number of countries supporting Maduro (and inflated the number supporting Guaido) according to the report and your own sources. Now the next mistake you made was not correctly interpreting the literal meaning of the words I posted. Whether "not recognizing" and "supporting Maduro" has any material difference in the real world is one issue, but as a matter of fact, beyond dispute, is that well over 100 countries (over 130 according to your source) DO NOT recognize Guaido as interim president. There's literally no way to have a good faith discussion with you if you refuse to recognize the meaning of the words I post and try to insult ME for it. EDIT: Possibly just as important, YOU are doing what you are accusing me of by repeatedly saying that "the world" in reference to the ~49 countries that actually recognize Guaido as interim president, or however many you're saying call for elections, or whatever your position is at any given moment. Everything that the world and Venezuelans have asked for is on the table and easy for Maduro to do. He could call elections like the rest of the world has asked is an option.
the world agreed and they (Guaido) made a constitutional claim I read what you wrote, but we know what you inferring. Or hoping others would infer. I wouldn't say that 11% of countries of the world support Maduro even though that would apparently be as factually accurate as you require, because it would still be dishonest. And you totally are dodging the absolute BS that your source was, because there is nothing factually accurate about that. Do you now agree it was bullshit? Do you agree with the list I have provided? This is why I think there is no way to have a good faith discussion with you. You read it, but intentionally distorted it. There's no where to go from here. You are completely lying right now. To make my position clear and why I thought that way I spent a ton of time and went into extreme detail. You put up, what I'm now confident, is a bullshit source because generally you jump down my throat about these sorts of things. You're still doing it. I told you the source I provided was the only one I saw that had the 65 number you no longer believe is accurate (despite you being the one to originally put it forward without a source at all). You on the other hand have posted clearly false information The 65 number literally came from you, then I looked for a source since you didn't provide one. jfc I asked why you kept saying "the world" and your response was: Mainly because it is tiring to write out exactly who does and who doesnt. Of those who have weighed in which is about 75 it is 65-10 or so and of the 65 they are all democracy's And now you're blaming me for finding a source for the false information (according to you) that YOU posted. That is textbook logical inconsistency. It's a lie by your own metrics/sources. Do you know understand that only 22 countries in the world support Maduro and 75% of them are Authoritarians? Do you agree and understand that of the countries that have taken a side 26% support Maduro and 74% support change? Do you understand that it is not a left vs right or US vs any one, it is if anything authoritarian countries vs democracies?
There's never been any question about my understanding of those questions. The genesis of this was YOU getting that wrong in your argument.
You've more than doubled the number of countries supporting Maduro and cut the number supporting Guaido by double digits (from your own alleged numbers) and are now asking me if I understand as if I didn't encourage you to correct your argument in the first place.....
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On May 03 2019 12:00 JimmiC wrote:
I have written the specifics multiple times. But if you cant understand that by now I cant help you.
Do you understand the above yes or no?
The argument was that you were wrong, and you proved you were yourself and then keep lashing out at me for pointing it out.
But yes, I'm familiar with the various reports on the countries supporting various positions although I find your interpretations as questionable/reliable as your 65-10 number (which you demonstrated yourself was wrong after presenting it and arguing like I didn't know what I was talking about).
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On May 03 2019 12:43 JimmiC wrote:I'm not lashing out at you. I'm looking to win any argument that you perceive you are having. I am trying figure out if you have an understanding of the situation or not. Because you don't seem to understand that Does not mean I am saying there is exactly 65 and 10. It means it is something like that, an estimation. I then wrote that for your sake I would write them all out for you so we could we work off exact numbers. After doing that for you to see as well the numbers are 63-18, I'm actually pretty happy that my estimation was so close. Now I am trying to ascertain if you even have a position or if you are just nitpicking to hide that you do not. I am also trying to see if you can agree to some basic provable fact or not. So please I put in all that effort because you didn't want an estimation and didn't trust the estimation. Now please let me know if you understand it or leave me alone. I am fine either way.
What do you mean "if I have a position"? I've reiterated my position enough time's I had to make a post telling you I've reiterated my position multiple times.
If you're asking specifically to a position on the countries. I expressed it. It is factually incorrect and intentionally misleading to say "the world supports Guaido"
It is factually correct to say the majority of the world does not recognize Guaido as interim president. Aqua started to make an argument that my position is also intentionally misleading but then stopped.
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On May 03 2019 13:34 JimmiC wrote:You position on the questions I asked and you have continued to dodge. I'm being very straightforward and clear. What you linked does not answer them. I'll post them again, I'm not sure what else I can do. And you make a good point about the difference between factual and honest. For example it would be factual but not honest to say that only 18 of the 195 countries in the world support Maduro, at 9%. But it would be both factual and honest to say that of the countries that have vocalized their support for one side 26% of them support Maduro. Anyways here is the questions again that you have not answered. Show nested quote +Do you know understand that only 22 countries in the world support Maduro and 75% of them are Authoritarians?
Do you agree and understand that of the countries that have taken a side 26% support Maduro and 74% support change?
Do you understand that it is not a left vs right or US vs any one, it is if anything authoritarian countries vs democracies?
There's no reason to pretend that I don't understand any of this stuff. If I didn't understand it I wouldn't have mentioned how your continuous use of "the world supports Guaido" or some variation was a factually wrong and intentionally misleading part of your argument.
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you can't win your argument men; neither of you can. at best you have %chance that your believes are 'better than...'.
Do you agree and understand that of the countries that have taken a side 26% support Maduro and 74% support change? - does not exclude Maduro changing it.
Do you know understand that only 22 countries in the world support Maduro and 75% of them are Authoritarians? does not mean that the people living in authoritarian countries are always worse off than the ones living in democracies.
overall, one argues on the future based on the past and the other on the future based on a future. shit hasn't happened men, it's the future... you can't win a prediction until it happens but the most funny thing here is that both futures can happen, consecutively(Guaido wins, starts fixing shit then fucks it right up, Maduro fucked it up so far but then he'll start fixing it).
so ... what the fuck are you people doing here?. one being right now doesn't exclude the other being right later so cut the shit and talk about things that are happening or are predicted to happen because you know ... inertia or something.
what did Maduro do trying to stop the hyperinflation('cause he did some things), or Guaidos' plan for Venezuela(would it work or it's a faerie-tale), what is needed of venezuelans going forward(some hard facts here then can't be avoided) etcetcetc.
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EPT
