EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 920
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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ankurra
Germany46 Posts
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9651 Posts
On November 09 2018 19:26 ankurra wrote: When your government uses fake evidence to ban critique, you should seriously be getting worried. The precedent was set long ago I'm afraid, and is a mainstay of all liberal politics. Plausible deniability mixed with any tiny shred of truth is now enough for people to go all in on. Trump has just taken to an extreme a concept that was already there. Put another way, if its possible for the favourable story to be true, it will be presented as fact, Trump is just more outlandish about it than anyone else. I don't think its a coincidence that the more outlandish it is, the more effective it is also. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17993 Posts
On November 09 2018 18:12 ReditusSum wrote: For recounts it looks like it only happened 3 times in the last 2 decades: Al Frankon - Minn. -2008 (Democrat) Thomas Salmon -Vermont -2006 (Democrat, switched to Republican in 2009) Christine Gregoire -Washington -2004 (Democrat) Harder to track down the "couple of days later" wins, but off the top of my head I can think of one: Dan Bongino (Republican) was ahead in Maryland 6 on Election night 2014, concedes three days later. Just wondering if anyone had an example of it going the other way. A Republican loses on Election night, but what-do-you-know there are still tens of thousands of outstanding votes from a Republican stronghold precinct/district/area and then three days later he wins. I looked into it a bit: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/recounts-rarely-reverse-election-results/ You got all three the ones 538 mentions, so I guess that so far, there has not been an overturn that favoured a Republican. However, it's a rather small sample size. Out of thousands of elections, 27 have triggered recounts, and 3 of those got overturned. There are many possible reasons, and fraud is, imho, somewhere at the bottom of the possible reasons these elections got flipped. Especially as they got *heavily* scrutinized in the following months (because of course they resulted in court cases in which every dubious vote was fought over). | ||
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korrekt
76 Posts
On November 09 2018 19:30 Acrofales wrote: I looked into it a bit: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/recounts-rarely-reverse-election-results/ You got all three the ones 538 mentions, so I guess that so far, there has not been an overturn that favoured a Republican. However, it's a rather small sample size. Out of thousands of elections, 27 have triggered recounts, and 3 of those got overturned. There are many possible reasons, and fraud is, imho, somewhere at the bottom of the possible reasons these elections got flipped. Especially as they got *heavily* scrutinized in the following months (because of course they resulted in court cases in which every dubious vote was fought over). And even if it would prove to be a trend that only democrats win the recounts, you could also spin it the other way: because GOP is more inclined to cheat it's more likely a recount goes DEMs way. I'm not saying that this is the more likely explanantion, but it would also explain this observation... | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 09 2018 16:52 ReditusSum wrote: Just out of curiosity when was the last time a Republican lost on election night and then won five days later? Bush II won on the night and won the recount, so that one doesn't even quite count. I'm not saying it's rigged, but it does seem awful lucky for Democrats that they always manage to find tens of thousands of votes whenever the election is close. This isn’t even a recount, it’s the initial count of votes. The results haven’t even been cerfitioby the Secretary of State, who is a Republican. The correct way to handle this would be to challenge a result after the Secretary of State certified them. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On November 09 2018 09:04 Cyro wrote: It's a matter of fact, not belief. It's happening right in front of you. Several of them have blatant keyword / URL blocks, some have a handful of incredibly biased mods with a huge amount of power over what other people see on the site as well. I spent half the morning watching threads rise through the reddit frontpage and get deleted a few minutes later by mods of e.g. r/politics without cause. Propaganda bots are working overtime and their interference with previous events have been well documented. Whether we like it or not such social media sites are part of the democratic fabric and these sort of wholesale covert censorship by one side of the political spectrum is pretty disturbing. | ||
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FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
On November 09 2018 21:52 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Whether we like it or not such social media sites are part of the democratic fabric and these sort of wholesale covert censorship by one side of the political spectrum is pretty disturbing. I don't really understand this, a subreddit is not an open platform, the mods make the rules. Just like here on TL. Why is it part of the democratic fabric? Also /r/politics has been full of posts about the protests, and is generally very heavily democrat biased so I don't understand the sentiment very well either. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35150 Posts
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Acrofales
Spain17993 Posts
On November 09 2018 22:24 Gahlo wrote: Reddit isn't a social media. Depends. If you say social media is necessarily built upon an underlying sociogram, then no, it's not. But it's user generated content, that is ranked by some mix of relevancy, recency and popularity. As such, it's social media. It's just that you choose which community to belong to (/r/politics) rather than the community being induced from your place in the sociogram. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Cyro
United Kingdom20287 Posts
Also /r/politics has been full of posts about the protests, and is generally very heavily democrat biased so I don't understand the sentiment very well either. Hours after they started perhaps, they were nuking everything related to it for a whole day or so. r/politics and some of the other subreddits have been all over the place. The vast majority of subreddits are generally dem leaning (as is reddit as a whole, because something like 75% of the reddit userbase - young people from the US and the rest of the english speaking world - lean dem) so posts go that way all of the time by default but they don't have any kind of consistent quality or moderation. There's been years of unmoderated or poorly moderated propaganda spam (r/politics and several other of the big names went on record banning a ton of people for discussing it, with and without evidence) which included a push for sanders over clinton, a ton of anti-clinton stuff and then sanders > trump > clinton support which has been well documented by now to come from russia bots by several of the US intelligence agencies. The mods on there and the people that appointed them probably had enough power to influence the election in a significant and negative way. -- On November 09 2018 19:26 ankurra wrote: When your government uses fake evidence to ban critique, you should seriously be getting worried. Should've been worried a long time ago but i can't really understand the people who see this kind of BS but get up and carry on with their day as if everything is fine. More nails in the coffin. | ||
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Nouar
France3270 Posts
On November 09 2018 16:52 ReditusSum wrote: Just out of curiosity when was the last time a Republican lost on election night and then won five days later? Bush II won on the night and won the recount, so that one doesn't even quite count. I'm not saying it's rigged, but it does seem awful lucky for Democrats that they always manage to find tens of thousands of votes whenever the election is close. Cities and populous counties have the most votes to count, thus take longer on average. Cities mostly lean Democrat. Thus the end of the count often favors Democrats. I don't see it as hard to fathom? | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On November 09 2018 22:13 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: I don't really understand this, a subreddit is not an open platform, the mods make the rules. Just like here on TL. Why is it part of the democratic fabric? Also /r/politics has been full of posts about the protests, and is generally very heavily democrat biased so I don't understand the sentiment very well either. On November 09 2018 22:24 Gahlo wrote: Reddit isn't a social media. I don't actually visit reddit, so I assumed it was a form of social media from what I heard about it. It seems to fit all commonly defined definitions of social media. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20287 Posts
On November 10 2018 00:06 Dangermousecatdog wrote: I don't actually visit reddit, so I assumed it was a form of social media from what I heard about it. Sorry. Technically they define themselves as a social news/aggregator site, it's user driven anyway. It's fallen victim to an enormous amount of political propaganda and manipulation (by the IRA etc) because it's relatively easy to influence what tens of millions of people see. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 10 2018 00:04 Nouar wrote: Cities and populous counties have the most votes to count, thus take longer on average. Cities mostly lean Democrat. Thus the end of the count often favors Democrats. I don't see it as hard to fathom? And late calls on elections do not always favor democrats. And elections often take a full week to fully resolve, which is why people shouldn't count their eggs before they hatch. California has 4.5 million ballots left | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20287 Posts
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Excludos
Norway8081 Posts
On November 09 2018 09:04 Cyro wrote: I spent half the morning watching threads rise through the reddit frontpage and get deleted a few minutes later by mods of e.g. r/politics without cause. The rules on r/politics are extremely strict. I'm not going to repeat all of them, but some of the repeat offenders are: * Not using the correct Title: There's a whole segment of rules for titles. The gist is: Copy word for word the title of the article, unless it contains sensational words like "Breaking!", in which case remove those. * Duplicate: Posting the same article as someone else. * Not posting the original source. * Not posting from the whitelist. The whitelist is also rather strict, tho it does contain even Fox news so..maybe not that strict. So watching "certain topics rise and get deletes without cause" is the norm for everything that gets posted there. It doesn't point to any left or right leaning mods. (However the forum itself is largely center/left leaning, that's for sure. But there's also many Europeans on there who on average are much more left leaning than Americans.) | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 10 2018 00:20 Cyro wrote: Isn't a huge part of the 2 month wait to take seats about counting votes properly and validating close election results anyway? Yes. Elections do not run at the speed of the internet or even reporting. But we have brain trusts like Marco Rubio claiming that the counties are required, but law, to report their mail in ballot numbers within a half an hour. He isn’t specific as to what happens if the country doesn’t do that, but I’ll give you a preview: The votes still count. Marco Rubio and the folks in Florida have spent a lot of time making sure specific groups of people can’t vote. Their true colors are showing now that there is a very real chance they might lose control of that senate seat for 6 years. | ||
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FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
On November 09 2018 23:56 Cyro wrote: Hours after they started perhaps, they were nuking everything related to it for a whole day or so. r/politics and some of the other subreddits have been all over the place. The vast majority of subreddits are generally dem leaning (as is reddit as a whole, because something like 75% of the reddit userbase - young people from the US and the rest of the english speaking world - lean dem) so posts go that way all of the time by default but they don't have any kind of consistent quality or moderation. There's been years of unmoderated or poorly moderated propaganda spam (r/politics and several other of the big names went on record banning a ton of people for discussing it, with and without evidence) which included a push for sanders over clinton, a ton of anti-clinton stuff and then sanders > trump > clinton support which has been well documented by now to come from russia bots by several of the US intelligence agencies. The mods on there and the people that appointed them probably had enough power to influence the election in a significant and negative way. Oh I agree reddit is quite steerable in which topics are popular, and I'm sure certain influences are fighting for the steering wheel of manipulation. But I don't really see the mass-censorship part. The problem is that (imo) 80%+ of people never read anything more than the headline before commenting so it's easy to get juicy titles upvoted fast while not actually being accurate if you read the article. And this makes it so much easier for propaganda to prosper. I think headline journalism is a big detriment to society right now and is partially responsible for growing divisions everywhere. Because you log in to social media, whatever kind, get headlines for things you are interested in thanks to power of analytics, get your views confirmed in a glance, and no need to read the articles since you already agree with the title. But very often the headline is not a perfect summary, or worse, even incorrect given the text of the article. | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
On November 10 2018 00:04 Nouar wrote: Cities and populous counties have the most votes to count, thus take longer on average. Cities mostly lean Democrat. Thus the end of the count often favors Democrats. I don't see it as hard to fathom? To add to this, opposition areas in trifecta controlled states (e.g. Dem leaning areas in Florida) are also the ones most likely to have electoral infrastructure slashed and early voting hours reduced for "financial" reasons. Though I don't have as much experience with the Florida GOP doing it as the NC GOP so they're probably not as naked about it if they do it at all. | ||
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