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On October 12 2018 23:17 Mohdoo wrote:
So now that Turkey is claiming to have definitive proof of SA involvement, where does this leave us?
SA assassinated a US journalist. Am I wrong in thinking this is a giant deal? It feels like a giant deal. I am not sure what the right response here is, but at the very least we should not be selling weapons to SA. Does anyone disagree?
You know, many countries do bad things. Look, we also do bad things. So they did bad things, but many countries do bad things.
Also Iran. Also Hillary.
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It is a very big deal. If an attack and murder on such a high profile person goes unpunished, it will single to other nations they can attack US citizens that they see at threats. Human rights activists, reporters and so on. And this is the shit that starts wars.
Holding off weapon sales to SA would be a good plan, but it’s not like they can’t just buy from someone else. The Trump administration just doesn’t have the staff or talent capable of dealing with SA right now.
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On October 12 2018 23:17 Mohdoo wrote:
So now that Turkey is claiming to have definitive proof of SA involvement, where does this leave us?
SA assassinated a US journalist. Am I wrong in thinking this is a giant deal? It feels like a giant deal. I am not sure what the right response here is, but at the very least we should not be selling weapons to SA. Does anyone disagree?
The people in charge disagree because he has a Muslim sounding name.
And the voter's aren't going to hold them responsible. Heaven forbid Congress does something.
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On October 12 2018 23:28 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2018 23:17 Mohdoo wrote:
So now that Turkey is claiming to have definitive proof of SA involvement, where does this leave us?
SA assassinated a US journalist. Am I wrong in thinking this is a giant deal? It feels like a giant deal. I am not sure what the right response here is, but at the very least we should not be selling weapons to SA. Does anyone disagree? The people in charge disagree because he has a Muslim sounding name. And the voter's aren't going to hold them responsible. Heaven forbid Congress does something.
To be fair to congress, the Republican and Democratic senators did send a letter to the White Housing giving them a heads up they were looking into what happened and intended on drafting up a bill in response. Reporters seemed to think that was a clear sign the senate is looking at sanctions.
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On October 12 2018 23:33 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2018 23:28 Gorsameth wrote:On October 12 2018 23:17 Mohdoo wrote:
So now that Turkey is claiming to have definitive proof of SA involvement, where does this leave us?
SA assassinated a US journalist. Am I wrong in thinking this is a giant deal? It feels like a giant deal. I am not sure what the right response here is, but at the very least we should not be selling weapons to SA. Does anyone disagree? The people in charge disagree because he has a Muslim sounding name. And the voter's aren't going to hold them responsible. Heaven forbid Congress does something. To be fair to congress, the Republican and Democratic senators did send a letter to the White Housing giving them a heads up they were looking into what happened and intended on drafting up a bill in response. Reporters seemed to think that was a clear sign the senate is looking at sanctions. Words words words, this Congress is really good at words.
Call me when they actually do something substantial.
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On October 12 2018 23:24 Plansix wrote:
It is a very big deal. If an attack and murder on such a high profile person goes unpunished, it will single to other nations they can attack US citizens that they see at threats. Human rights activists, reporters and so on. And this is the shit that starts wars.
Holding off weapon sales to SA would be a good plan, but it’s not like they can’t just buy from someone else. The Trump administration just doesn’t have the staff or talent capable of dealing with SA right now.
High profile? Your government has spent the last two years shitting on journalists and calling them "fake news" and painting them as the ennemy of the people, I don't think he's a "high profile" person according to your government.
Also was he really a US citizen? He's depicted as a Saudian working for an American newspaper by multiple sources here, no mention of American citizenship.
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If the US government is complicit in the Yemen slaughter/genocide then why would a dead journalist move the needle at all?
The only way this event is making waves is because it involves a journalist so of course it's going to get a lot of coverage by journalists.
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On October 12 2018 23:42 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2018 23:24 Plansix wrote:
It is a very big deal. If an attack and murder on such a high profile person goes unpunished, it will single to other nations they can attack US citizens that they see at threats. Human rights activists, reporters and so on. And this is the shit that starts wars.
Holding off weapon sales to SA would be a good plan, but it’s not like they can’t just buy from someone else. The Trump administration just doesn’t have the staff or talent capable of dealing with SA right now. High profile? Your government has spent the last two years shitting on journalists and calling them "fake news" and painting them as the ennemy of the people, I don't think he's a "high profile" person according to your government. Also was he really a US citizen? He's depicted as a Saudian working for an American newspaper by multiple sources here, no mention of American citizenship. An aide specified that Khashoggi has been a permanent U.S. resident. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2018/10/11/trumps-jamal-khashoggi-reckoning-why-his-history-with-despots-suggests-he-wont-get-tough-saudi-arabia/?utm_term=.55c01b9c89d8
Resident, not citizen it seems.
Trumps taxes is a non story because those who dislike him already knew it and those who like him don't care or love him because 'tax is theft'.
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Yeah he was a green card holder afaik.
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On October 12 2018 23:42 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2018 23:24 Plansix wrote:
It is a very big deal. If an attack and murder on such a high profile person goes unpunished, it will single to other nations they can attack US citizens that they see at threats. Human rights activists, reporters and so on. And this is the shit that starts wars.
Holding off weapon sales to SA would be a good plan, but it’s not like they can’t just buy from someone else. The Trump administration just doesn’t have the staff or talent capable of dealing with SA right now. High profile? Your government has spent the last two years shitting on journalists and calling them "fake news" and painting them as the ennemy of the people, I don't think he's a "high profile" person according to your government. Also was he really a US citizen? He's depicted as a Saudian working for an American newspaper by multiple sources here, no mention of American citizenship.
As stated above, he was a green card holder, resident and reporter for one of our best known and oldest national papers. The Washington Post isn’t going to let the murder of one of their reporters by a US ally go, so this is VERY high profile. Also, reporters tend to report on other reporters being murdered by foreign governments.
On October 12 2018 23:57 Logo wrote:
If the US government is complicit in the Yemen slaughter/genocide then why would a dead journalist move the needle at all?
The only way this event is making waves is because it involves a journalist so of course it's going to get a lot of coverage by journalists.
This type of response is centered on how America will respond, or in this case won’t respond. It won’t move the needle in the US. It will move the needle for the rest of the world. The rest of the world is seeing that detaining and attacking US residents/citizens abroad doesn’t change how be behave at home. Our government doesn’t care and our citizens don’t really care.
And of course journalist are going to report on it. They do not like seeing their co-workers attacked and murdered. And attacking an American journalist is a pretty risky move for any government. Detaining or attacking you is a much lower risk.
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I doubt one dead journalist would be inconvenient enough to halt their billions of dollars in trade of arms or Saudi Arabia being a geopolitical ally in the region. They can talk big about urging an investigation or the need to protect freedom of speech, but knowing the current administration's attitude against the press and their friendliness with MbS, this would have been buried long ago if it wasn't for the news media hammering this story.
I still remember no one had Canada's back when they stood against Saudi Arabia, and no one will oppose SA this time.
On October 13 2018 00:30 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +This type of response is centered on how America will respond, or in this case won’t respond. It won’t move the needle in the US. It will move the needle for the rest of the world. The rest of the world is seeing that detaining and attacking US residents/citizens abroad doesn’t change how be behave at home. Our government doesn’t care and our citizens don’t really care.
And of course journalist are going to report on it. They do not like seeing their co-workers attacked and murdered. And attacking an American journalist is a pretty risky move for any government. Detaining or attacking you is a much lower risk ... It was just so frustrated seeing all the fawning pieces over the crown prince MbS even during the Yemen crisis when this was obvious this is who he always was and what his regime would be like.
Everyone got caught up in his liberalization programs like allowing women to drive or his modernization schemes away from oil, but after doing some readings it is clear he is no less of an autocrat. It's a pretty PR move, but MbS very much wants Saudi Arabia to change on his terms.
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This type of response is centered on how America will respond, or in this case won’t respond. It won’t move the needle in the US. It will move the needle for the rest of the world. The rest of the world is seeing that detaining and attacking US residents/citizens abroad doesn’t change how be behave at home. Our government doesn’t care and our citizens don’t really care.
And of course journalist are going to report on it. They do not like seeing their co-workers attacked and murdered. And attacking an American journalist is a pretty risky move for any government. Detaining or attacking you is a much lower risk
Yeah I'm interested to see the fallout, and I think maybe it could affect the US by starting to bring our relationship with SA up as a political point (much like our relationship to Isreal has become).
It was just so frustrated seeing all the fawning pieces over the crown prince MbS even during the Yemen crisis when this was obvious this is who he always was and what his regime would be like.
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On October 13 2018 00:15 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2018 23:42 nojok wrote:On October 12 2018 23:24 Plansix wrote:
It is a very big deal. If an attack and murder on such a high profile person goes unpunished, it will single to other nations they can attack US citizens that they see at threats. Human rights activists, reporters and so on. And this is the shit that starts wars.
Holding off weapon sales to SA would be a good plan, but it’s not like they can’t just buy from someone else. The Trump administration just doesn’t have the staff or talent capable of dealing with SA right now. High profile? Your government has spent the last two years shitting on journalists and calling them "fake news" and painting them as the ennemy of the people, I don't think he's a "high profile" person according to your government. Also was he really a US citizen? He's depicted as a Saudian working for an American newspaper by multiple sources here, no mention of American citizenship. As stated above, he was a green card holder, resident and reporter for one of our best known and oldest national papers. The Washington Post isn’t going to let the murder of one of their reporters by a US ally go, so this is VERY high profile. Also, reporters tend to report on other reporters being murdered by foreign governments. Show nested quote +On October 12 2018 23:57 Logo wrote:
If the US government is complicit in the Yemen slaughter/genocide then why would a dead journalist move the needle at all?
The only way this event is making waves is because it involves a journalist so of course it's going to get a lot of coverage by journalists. This type of response is centered on how America will respond, or in this case won’t respond. It won’t move the needle in the US. It will move the needle for the rest of the world. The rest of the world is seeing that detaining and attacking US residents/citizens abroad doesn’t change how be behave at home. Our government doesn’t care and our citizens don’t really care. And of course journalist are going to report on it. They do not like seeing their co-workers attacked and murdered. And attacking an American journalist is a pretty risky move for any government. Detaining or attacking you is a much lower risk.
I think you're being overly optimistic. Trump's IMMEDIATE response was 'he wasn't a US citizen'. In other words 'none of our business.' He's pre-washed his hands of it.
Maybe the senate will levy some sanctions, but I think you're barking up an empty tree.
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A reporter at NPR was saying that SA is a challenge to report on because they get so much information second hand. I don’t think that excuses the overly positive pieces, but nations like SA are resistant to holistic reporting.
I also think murdering a US journalist inside their embassy caught everyone by surprise.
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On October 13 2018 01:04 Plansix wrote:
A reporter at NPR was saying that SA is a challenge to report on because they get so much information second hand. I don’t think that excuses the overly positive pieces, but nations like SA are resistant to holistic reporting.
I also think murdering a US journalist inside their embassy caught everyone by surprise.
That's a sympathetic viewpoint, but a lot of the positive pieces on say WaPo of MbS come from interviewing MbS or direct quotes from him. Like just go read any of the David Ignatius pieces on Saudi Arabia WaPo dumped out before this happened.
Sure good info is hard to get, but in absence of that maybe being a propaganda mouthpiece for SA isn't a good idea? I think it's a bad enough idea to really be an issue right now.
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On October 13 2018 00:29 PhoenixVoid wrote:I doubt one dead journalist would be inconvenient enough to halt their billions of dollars in trade of arms or Saudi Arabia being a geopolitical ally in the region. They can talk big about urging an investigation or the need to protect freedom of speech, but knowing the current administration's attitude against the press and their friendliness with MbS, this would have been buried long ago if it wasn't for the news media hammering this story. I still remember no one had Canada's back when they stood against Saudi Arabia, and no one will oppose SA this time. Show nested quote +On October 13 2018 00:30 Logo wrote:This type of response is centered on how America will respond, or in this case won’t respond. It won’t move the needle in the US. It will move the needle for the rest of the world. The rest of the world is seeing that detaining and attacking US residents/citizens abroad doesn’t change how be behave at home. Our government doesn’t care and our citizens don’t really care.
And of course journalist are going to report on it. They do not like seeing their co-workers attacked and murdered. And attacking an American journalist is a pretty risky move for any government. Detaining or attacking you is a much lower risk ... It was just so frustrated seeing all the fawning pieces over the crown prince MbS even during the Yemen crisis when this was obvious this is who he always was and what his regime would be like. Everyone got caught up in his liberalization programs like allowing women to drive or his modernization schemes away from oil, but after doing some readings it is clear he is no less of an autocrat. It's a pretty PR move, but MbS very much wants Saudi Arabia to change on his terms.
France, UK and China also sold weapons to SA though.
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On October 13 2018 01:19 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2018 01:04 Plansix wrote:
A reporter at NPR was saying that SA is a challenge to report on because they get so much information second hand. I don’t think that excuses the overly positive pieces, but nations like SA are resistant to holistic reporting.
I also think murdering a US journalist inside their embassy caught everyone by surprise. That's a sympathetic viewpoint, but a lot of the positive pieces on say WaPo of MbS come from interviewing MbS or direct quotes from him. Like just go read any of the David Ignatius pieces on Saudi Arabia WaPo dumped out before this happened. Sure good info is hard to get, but in absence of that maybe being a propaganda mouthpiece for SA isn't a good idea? I think it's a bad enough idea to really be an issue right now.
If the paper is also reporting on Yemen and what is happening, it shouldn’t be a bad thing. And world leaders should be interviewed and reported on. The problem is that no one article will give people all the information they need. I think there is a line where it isn’t a good idea, but I’m not sure this is the line.
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(1) objectively bad thing BBB is done by country AAA
(2) but we did bad things tooooo!!!!
BBB is still bad. BBB should still be condemned. If a world of values is ever to take hold then values have to start somewhere. Might as well start with enforcing some kind of norms on Saudi Arabia.
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On October 13 2018 01:31 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2018 01:19 Logo wrote:On October 13 2018 01:04 Plansix wrote:
A reporter at NPR was saying that SA is a challenge to report on because they get so much information second hand. I don’t think that excuses the overly positive pieces, but nations like SA are resistant to holistic reporting.
I also think murdering a US journalist inside their embassy caught everyone by surprise. That's a sympathetic viewpoint, but a lot of the positive pieces on say WaPo of MbS come from interviewing MbS or direct quotes from him. Like just go read any of the David Ignatius pieces on Saudi Arabia WaPo dumped out before this happened. Sure good info is hard to get, but in absence of that maybe being a propaganda mouthpiece for SA isn't a good idea? I think it's a bad enough idea to really be an issue right now. If the paper is also reporting on Yemen and what is happening, it shouldn’t be a bad thing. And world leaders should be interviewed and reported on. The problem is that no one article will give people all the information they need. I think there is a line where it isn’t a good idea, but I’m not sure this is the line.
Idk that I agree, but I don't think you're coming from a wrong place or anything. Like to me the role of journalism is and should be boost important things up. Choosing to run articles about someone that's not relevant to compared to the massive other thing they are involved in seems irresponsible. It's like when they ran those idiotic stories about Kavanaugh being a good carpool companion. I consider it incredibly irresponsible.
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EPT
