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On April 02 2018 19:48 zlefin wrote:
Ok, that's clear. personally, I don' find it surprising that some people dislike snowden, as there's some reasonable basis for doing so. I'm not sure why you'd find ti baffling, as it's extremely common that some people support and some people oppose. it's not like snowden is a paragon of integrity. decent integrity, maybe; but not a paragon.
Not a paragon, but he did an unquestioned service to the American people. Left and right, he revealed abuses of power by the government that are of concern to both sides - or should be - and yet he's pilloried for having done so.
If he hadn't spoken out, we'd be none the wiser. Sure, have a conversation about the rights and wrongs of his methods, but it strikes me as indeed baffling for people to call him a traitor to the American people when he's revealing that the government is literally spying on said American people.
Calling for integrity on one hand and punishing people for showing it on the other is pointless.
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On April 03 2018 02:32 Plansix wrote:
I think everyone should be concerned with the growing influence of Amazon and how much of the economy they make up. And Amazon’s terrible labor practices. I could care less about the big box department stores taking it in the teeth because of Amazon, since they put a lot of other companies out of business during their rise. But the critiques of Amazon should come from someone other than Trump.
Probably just easier to let them finish the job and then appropriate them to the people at this point. They have literally turned destroying retailers into a science where they pay communication degree graduates 6 figures to be telemarketer scammers selling business owners on their own destruction.
As well as selling consumer data like a corporation such as facebook has recently been under scrutiny for, Amazon also exploits the data internally. Not for advertisements and the like, but for targeting specific avenues to destroy retailers. Any retailer signing up with Amazon is starting their own death clock. Once Amazon has access to their system they instantly start crunching the data (both online through Amazon and any other data the retailer gives access too under the guise of 'optimization') to identify their best products by margin and volume. Once they've identified that it's only a matter of time.
Amazon reaches out to the manufacturers of the high-net product and determines the best option.
1) use their massive capital to get a better deal than the local retailer they suckered and undersell him (sometimes at a loss until they are out of business)
2)Find a competing manufacturer and offer them a deal on Amazon
3)Basically create a competing manufacturer in China (or elsewhere) by backchanneling the potentially lucrative opportunity to business partners abroad.
It's ambitious (being kind here), to believe any sort of normal political action can do anything but impede the inevitable slightly.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37122 Posts
@Everyone
Please remember to keep discussions focused around the topic of politics. Do not derail this thread by discussing a specific user or specific users.
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Edited due to Seeker's post.
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On April 03 2018 02:46 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2018 02:42 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On April 03 2018 02:30 IgnE wrote:
if you dont know whats in all 1.5 million documents how do you know youve gotten "all" the evidence you need? you think sitting on the nsa network and spending days or weeks poring over all of those documents is a safe practice for a whistleblower? transferring 1.5 million documents to an external drive is a matter of minutes. you guys are being ridiculous, and it honestly flabbergasts me that people supposedly tech-literate think "oh well 1.5 million documents clearly takes a long time" as if he was photocopying them by hand and carrying them out in cardboard boxes.
as to the tropological distinction between "spy" and "whistleblower" i dont place much value on it. call him a whistleblower or a "spy" for the american people, i dont care. the act stands on its own Edward Snowden started stealing documents from NSA at least 8 months before he ran away to Russia. The publicly released versions of Snowden's documents are stuff like Powerpoint presentations and PDFs and Word documents. Downloading 1.5 million of those would take a hell of a long time. longer than it takes to read them all and only download those that are strictly relevant?
So you think it is right and proper to steal a bunch of Top Secret classified information on the basis that maybe, possibly, conceivably, some small fraction of it contains information about programs that violated civil liberties? And then when you do realize that you have stolen a TON of information about US surveillance of Russia, China, and Iran, you don't try to delete it. You just keep it with you, even when you go to China and then Russia. You think all of that is cool and aboveboard, because a couple dozen of the 1.5 million, all of which you still possess, contain information about some programs that arguably infringed on American's civil liberties?
For God's sake, if the man is a real patriot, who realized that he accidentally hoovered up a bunch of highly classified information about intelligence sources and methods pertaining not to American civil liberties but rather spying on Russia, China, and Iran. What real patriot among us would make no attempt to delete such info? What real patriot among us would not immediately head to China and then Russia with all that highly classified information still in his possession? The patriotism and integrity that Edward Snowden has displayed to Russia baffles the mind.
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@plansix's now-edited post
and yet, he didnt get caught. so he did something right
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On April 03 2018 02:58 IgnE wrote:
and yet, he didnt get caught. so he did something right
Said every successful spy who has ever lived.
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On April 03 2018 02:59 TheLordofAwesome wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2018 02:58 IgnE wrote:
and yet, he didnt get caught. so he did something right Said every successful spy who has ever lived.
and every successful whistleblower?
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On April 03 2018 03:02 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2018 02:59 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On April 03 2018 02:58 IgnE wrote:
and yet, he didnt get caught. so he did something right Said every successful spy who has ever lived. and every successful whistleblower?
My point is that your attempted defense of Snowden's actions is equally applicable to spies and whistleblowers. You are not exactly proving that he is one and not the other.
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On April 03 2018 03:04 TheLordofAwesome wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2018 03:02 IgnE wrote:On April 03 2018 02:59 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On April 03 2018 02:58 IgnE wrote:
and yet, he didnt get caught. so he did something right Said every successful spy who has ever lived. and every successful whistleblower? My point is that your attempted defense of Snowden's actions is equally applicable to spies and whistleblowers. You are not exactly proving that he is one and not the other.
If a Russian spy did what he did I would still think him a better man than the people trying to arrest and try him. Or at least more specifically the actions as mentioned of both parties.
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oh jesus christ. i was arguing against your interpretation of the facts that "there is no other possibility" than that he is and always was a russian spy because "why else would he take 1.5 million documents!?!" if your position is now that we cant know whether he was a whistleblower or a spy based on that then i consider myself successful
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On April 03 2018 03:15 IgnE wrote:
oh jesus christ. i was arguing against your interpretation of the facts that "there is no other possibility" than that he is and always was a russian spy because "why else would he take 1.5 million documents!?!" if your position is now that we cant know whether he was a whistleblower or a spy based on that then i consider myself successful
That is not what you argued above in that 1 line post. You claim you were arguing that the fact that he took 1.5mil documents has no bearing on whether or not he is a spy or a whistleblower. (I think it does matter and it matters greatly.)
Regardless of that, your actual 11-word post was "and yet, he didnt get caught. so he did something right," which makes no mention of 1 or .5 or millions or documents. Instead you argue that his success at theft meant that his intentions were pure, which I pointed out was nonsense.
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On April 03 2018 03:15 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2018 03:04 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On April 03 2018 03:02 IgnE wrote:On April 03 2018 02:59 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On April 03 2018 02:58 IgnE wrote:
and yet, he didnt get caught. so he did something right Said every successful spy who has ever lived. and every successful whistleblower? My point is that your attempted defense of Snowden's actions is equally applicable to spies and whistleblowers. You are not exactly proving that he is one and not the other. If a Russian spy did what he did I would still think him a better man than the people trying to arrest and try him. Or at least more specifically the actions as mentioned of both parties.
Is the bolded part hyperbole or serious?
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On April 03 2018 03:28 TheLordofAwesome wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2018 03:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 03 2018 03:04 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On April 03 2018 03:02 IgnE wrote:On April 03 2018 02:59 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On April 03 2018 02:58 IgnE wrote:
and yet, he didnt get caught. so he did something right Said every successful spy who has ever lived. and every successful whistleblower? My point is that your attempted defense of Snowden's actions is equally applicable to spies and whistleblowers. You are not exactly proving that he is one and not the other. If a Russian spy did what he did I would still think him a better man than the people trying to arrest and try him. Or at least more specifically the actions as mentioned of both parties. Is the bolded part hyperbole or serious?
Little of both. The idea that a group that made sure they weren't held accountable for their actions is going to hold Snowden accountable is laughable on it's face.
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On April 03 2018 03:22 TheLordofAwesome wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2018 03:15 IgnE wrote:
oh jesus christ. i was arguing against your interpretation of the facts that "there is no other possibility" than that he is and always was a russian spy because "why else would he take 1.5 million documents!?!" if your position is now that we cant know whether he was a whistleblower or a spy based on that then i consider myself successful That is not what you argued above in that 1 line post. You claim you were arguing that the fact that he took 1.5mil documents has no bearing on whether or not he is a spy or a whistleblower. (I think it does matter and it matters greatly.) Regardless of that, your actual 11-word post was "and yet, he didnt get caught. so he did something right," which makes no mention of 1 or .5 or millions or documents. Instead you argue that his success at theft meant that his intentions were pure, which I pointed out was nonsense.
yes, i argued it has no bearing. a whistleblower might and very probably does have good enough reasons for taking "every thing" when (s)he doesnt know where exactly "the whole thing" is
my post about not getting caught was directed at plansix, not you. i was arguing that stealing 1.5 million documents all at once didnt get him caught even though plansix's firm instituted safeguards against similar theft ten years ago. it had nothing to do w intention and was simply an assertion that his success might be considered evidence that his approach was a good one purely from a logistical standpoint.
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On April 03 2018 03:36 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2018 03:22 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On April 03 2018 03:15 IgnE wrote:
oh jesus christ. i was arguing against your interpretation of the facts that "there is no other possibility" than that he is and always was a russian spy because "why else would he take 1.5 million documents!?!" if your position is now that we cant know whether he was a whistleblower or a spy based on that then i consider myself successful That is not what you argued above in that 1 line post. You claim you were arguing that the fact that he took 1.5mil documents has no bearing on whether or not he is a spy or a whistleblower. (I think it does matter and it matters greatly.) Regardless of that, your actual 11-word post was "and yet, he didnt get caught. so he did something right," which makes no mention of 1 or .5 or millions or documents. Instead you argue that his success at theft meant that his intentions were pure, which I pointed out was nonsense. yes, i argued it has no bearing. a whistleblower might and very probably does have good enough reasons for taking "every thing" when (s)he doesnt know where exactly "the whole thing" is my post about not getting caught was directed at plansix, not you. i was arguing that stealing 1.5 million documents all at once didnt get him caught even though plansix's firm instituted safeguards against similar theft ten years ago. it had nothing to do w intention and was simply an assertion that his success might be considered evidence that his approach was a good one purely from a logistical standpoint.
For the third time, Edward Snowden began stealing documents from NSA at least 8 months before he ran away to China, then Russia.
You keep going on about how he "stole them all at once" which is literally completely false. If I were going on in this thread about "the amazing progress that the US Army Corps of Engineers has made on the physical construction of the Border Wall" it would be equally laughable.
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are you suggesting that it was a linear process where he stole a proportional number of documents over each time interval? stealing some documents, deciding that he didnt have "the whole thing," resolving to get "the whole thing" by stealing "every thing," and then fleeing is not inconsistent with my argument
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On April 03 2018 02:32 Plansix wrote:
I think everyone should be concerned with the growing influence of Amazon and how much of the economy they make up. And Amazon’s terrible labor practices. I could care less about the big box department stores taking it in the teeth because of Amazon, since they put a lot of other companies out of business during their rise. But the critiques of Amazon should come from someone other than Trump.
It's like the pharma bro thing. Amazon being "punished" is a good thing in general, but this isn't for the right reasons.
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Doesn't USPS benefit tremendously from Amazon? I would say a significant majority of all of my purchases are through Amazon and are delivered to my door. It is extreeeeemely rare that I buy anything besides clothes and food in person. It is likely in excess, but I would say that I contribute to hundreds of dollars of USPS services every year that I had otherwise never used. Even if Amazon got cut a good deal, the sheer quantity of shipping must have skyrocketed as a result of Amazon.
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On April 03 2018 04:12 IgnE wrote:
are you suggesting that it was a linear process where he stole a proportional number of documents over each time interval? stealing some documents, deciding that he didnt have "the whole thing," resolving to get "the whole thing" by stealing "every thing," and then fleeing is not inconsistent with my argument
The exact ration of Documents Stolen / Time Elapsed is of course not known to me because NSA has never released such information. From an earlier post, my main argument about the 1.5 million stolen arguments is:
For God's sake, if Edward Snowen is a real patriot, who realized that he accidentally hoovered up a bunch of highly classified information about intelligence sources and methods pertaining not to American civil liberties but rather spying on Russia, China, and Iran. What real patriot among us would make no attempt to delete such info? What real patriot among us would not immediately head to China and then Russia with all that highly classified information still in his possession? The patriotism and integrity that Edward Snowden has displayed to Russia baffles the mind.
Snowden stole 1.5 million documents over a period of at least 8 months. When he fled, either he literally had no idea what he actually taken, or he must have known that 90% or more of what he took exclusively concerned foreign intelligence gathering against targets like Russia and China and Iran. Those are the only two possible options, and both of them are strong evidence that he was not acting as a responsible whistleblower would act. Snowden kept all of that information with him, even when he went to Russia.
Ed's defenders acknowledged that he still retained his document archive in Russia, but they claimed that he had encrypted with with uncrackable encryption, that he had not given up the keys to this encryption to the Russians, and that the Russians didn't really care about getting at that information anyways. Everything about these statements is laughable to anyone acquainted with actual encryption methods, Russian espionage operations, or Russian interrogation techniques.
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EPT
