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On April 03 2018 01:07 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I think it's possible to retrospectively point towards ways Snowden could have done a better job making sure the information released would not be dangerously misused. But from the perspective where he's an individual kinda stumbling upon information about government surveillance that he feels (correctly, imo) the public absolutely deserves to know about, I have a hard time seeing what steps he could have been expected to take to succeed in goal a) inform the public and b) not go to jail for something that shouldn't be a crime. Total hero imo.
Also, I'm thining he had to choose a country that isn't really allied with the US because the US could exert considerable diplomatic pressure upon all the ones that are?
Snowden is a very bright guy, with high integrity, and insofar as the word "hero" can be applied to human beings, he clearly deserves it.
He is of course paranoid (for good reason), and as Lacan would say, even if they really are out to get you, your paranoia is pathological.
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On April 03 2018 00:22 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2018 22:42 farvacola wrote:
It is also undisputed that Snowden's information dump contained a wide variety of non-smoking gun intelligence that served no public interest purpose, yet endangered the lives of US operatives. He was quite indiscriminate with his release. This is simply untrue. Snowden explicitly refused to do a broad information dump, and to act as the arbiter of what should and should not be released. He felt the former would be irresponsible and the latter would potentially allow the leaks to be politicized by him, even if only inadvertently. Instead he removed himself for the equation and trusted in the experience and competence of a group of journalists. A small number of those fucked up at redacting. Snowden himself has shown an ideological obsession with patriotism and integrity.
If you want to learn the true story of Edward Snowden, I suggest you go here and read the series of linked articles.
Snowden's assertions of honesty and good faith are laughable. Edward Snowden stole about 1.5 million documents from NSA. (The exact number is unclear. Different news organizations have thrown around different numbers, but they're all in the 1.2 to 1.7 million range.)
How long would it take someone to actually read all 1.5 million documents, most of which are highly technical manuals about computer systems? Clearly, Snowden took every document he could get his hands on, and he didn't give a damn about what it actually contained. If you are a real whistleblower who uncovers a program that violates Americans' constitutional rights, you would likely take some evidence or documentation that proved the existence of the program. You would have no reason to take anything else, much less 1.5 million of anything else.
The only reason you take 1.5 million documents is if you weren't a real whistleblower but were an agent of a US adversary. There is simply no other possible explanation.
Among the documents that Snowden took and were never disclosed to the public were 31,000 internal assessments of US intelligence targets (like Russia, China, Iran), US intelligence capabilities, and US gaps in coverage. Rick Ledgett, the former NSA Deputy Director who ran NSA's damage assessment of the Snowden Operation, stated in an interview with CBS:
John Miller: Of all the things he took is there anything in there that worries you or concerns you more than anything else?
Rick Ledgett: It's an exhaustive list of the requirements that have been levied against-- against the National Security Agency. And what that gives is, what topics we're interested in, where our gaps are. But additional information about U.S. capabilities and U.S. gaps is provided as part of that.
John Miller: So, I'm going to assume that there's one in there about China, and there's one in there about Iran, and there's another in there about Russia.
Rick Ledgett: Many more than one.
John Miller: Many more than one?
Rick Ledgett: Yes.
John Miller: How many of those are there?
Rick Ledgett: About 31,000.
John Miller: If those documents fell into their hands? What good would it do them?
Rick Ledgett: It would give them a roadmap of what we know, what we don't know, and give them-- implicitly, a way to-- protect their information from the U.S. intelligence community's view.
John Miller: For an adversary in the intelligence game, that's a gold mine?
Rick Ledgett: It is the keys to the kingdom
The theft of 31,000 such documents is not the work of a whistleblower. It's the work of a spy. Edward Snowden is a traitor through and through, which is why he has hidden in Putin's Russia and will likely remain there for the rest of his life.
EDIT: For those of you who are unaware, Snowden's story about getting stuck in the Moscow airport being the only reason he ended up in Russia is also a lie. See this story in the Washington Post, which is generally the best major US publication on intelligence matters, IMO.
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Could someone remind me again what the punishment was for the government officials implicated by Snowden's leaks?
Or was there nothing uncovered worthy of even a comparable punishment to someone who steals baby formula from Walmart?
I seem to remember something about a program called MUSCULAR which preyed on those very cables mentioned earlier (or at least where the data passed through them) in order to bypass any judicial restrictions the quite invasive but smaller PRISM program may have had.
It seems the government was doing some messed up stuff, Snowden exposed it, ran for his life and some semblance of freedom, no one in government was really held accountable, and people see fit to make Snowden their target. I mean, Snowden has enough powerful critics, he should at least have allies in the people who should be thankful for him doing whatever it took him to get that information to us.
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One of the things I want to bring up is how harmful the NSA spying program was those agencies reputations to the voting public. Spy or Patriot, there would be no debate about Snowden without the NSA data mining program and the complete lack of knowledge that even congress had about it. The Bush administration lied about the damn thing to congress and the Obama administration tried to dismantle it quietly. If, at any point, they had come clean with the public, Snowden and the ongoing problems he created would never have existed. Our entire government and its agencies live in the shadow of all the mistakes made during the Iraq War and our complete inability to deal with them.
Edit: GH is on point. The Snowden leaks should have lead to someone being held accountable. Or at least a debate in congress about shutting that system down and holding anyone accountable for creating it. But nothing happened. Snowden could be a spy. But no one will believe the agencies report that he was a spy because it just looks like they got caught.
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@lordofawesome
"simply no other possible explanation?" please. you are more than a little unimaginative
my very first thought when imagining myself back in snowden's shoes, and accessing a computer for the purposes of stealing documents, would be "take everything as quickly as possible and sort it out later"
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On April 03 2018 02:09 Plansix wrote:
One of the things I want to bring up is how harmful the NSA spying program was those agencies reputations to the voting public. Spy or Patriot, there would be no debate about Snowden without the NSA data mining program and the complete lack of knowledge that even congress had about it. The Bush administration lied about the damn thing to congress and the Obama administration tried to dismantle it quietly. If, at any point, they had come clean with the public, Snowden and the ongoing problems he created would never have existed. Our entire government and its agencies live in the shadow of all the mistakes made during the Iraq War and our complete inability to deal with them.
That pretty much sounds like a no, unless one counts dealing with Trump as their consequence and our retribution.
It shouldn't be worth someones breath/keystrokes to criticize Snowden's actions, as they should be still busy decrying the ongoing government abuses.
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On April 03 2018 02:13 IgnE wrote:
@lordofawesome
"simply no other possible explanation?" please. you are more than a little unimaginative
my very first thought when imagining myself back in snowden's shoes, and accessing a computer for the purposes of stealing documents, would be "take everything as quickly as possible and sort it out later"
........those are the actions of a thief and a spy, not a patriotic whistleblower trying to expose very particular government surveillance abuses. Remind me how this helps your case again?????
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On April 03 2018 02:13 IgnE wrote:
@lordofawesome
"simply no other possible explanation?" please. you are more than a little unimaginative
my very first thought when imagining myself back in snowden's shoes, and accessing a computer for the purposes of stealing documents, would be "take everything as quickly as possible and sort it out later"
that would be hard to disagree with up to the point of it being 1.5million documents.
at that point you are not doing it as quickly as possible.
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On April 03 2018 02:20 brian wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2018 02:13 IgnE wrote:
@lordofawesome
"simply no other possible explanation?" please. you are more than a little unimaginative
my very first thought when imagining myself back in snowden's shoes, and accessing a computer for the purposes of stealing documents, would be "take everything as quickly as possible and sort it out later" that would be hard to disagree with up to the point of it being 1.5million documents. at that point you are not doing it as quickly as possible.
Also, Snowden was taking stuff starting at least 8 months before he did a runner.
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Yeah, I don't think the all 1.5 million documents were sitting in one fold waiting to be dumped in a flash drive.
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This Amazon thing is just so annoying. It will not have any lasting impact on anything involving the economy or Amazon because at the end of the day people will choose cheaper convenience over going to a store every single time so Amazon will keep growing and this "scandal" will mean nothing, but I just do not understand the logic of the president attacking an American company and causing the stock market to tank today because right now it is exclusively because of him.
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On April 03 2018 02:26 Adreme wrote:
This Amazon thing is just so annoying. It will not have any lasting impact on anything involving the economy or Amazon because at the end of the day people will choose cheaper convenience over going to a store every single time so Amazon will keep growing and this "scandal" will mean nothing, but I just do not understand the logic of the president attacking an American company and causing the stock market to tank today because right now it is exclusively because of him. Because Amazon isn't willing to suck up to him.
It sadly is just that simple.
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if you dont know whats in all 1.5 million documents how do you know youve gotten "all" the evidence you need? you think sitting on the nsa network and spending days or weeks poring over all of those documents is a safe practice for a whistleblower? transferring 1.5 million documents to an external drive is a matter of minutes. you guys are being ridiculous, and it honestly flabbergasts me that people supposedly tech-literate think "oh well 1.5 million documents clearly takes a long time" as if he was photocopying them by hand and carrying them out in cardboard boxes.
as to the tropological distinction between "spy" and "whistleblower" i dont place much value on it. call him a whistleblower or a "spy" for the american people, i dont care. the act stands on its own
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I think everyone should be concerned with the growing influence of Amazon and how much of the economy they make up. And Amazon’s terrible labor practices. I could care less about the big box department stores taking it in the teeth because of Amazon, since they put a lot of other companies out of business during their rise. But the critiques of Amazon should come from someone other than Trump.
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On April 03 2018 02:30 IgnE wrote:
if you dont know whats in all 1.5 million documents how do you know youve gotten "all" the evidence you need? you think sitting on the nsa network and spending days or weeks poring over all of those documents is a safe practice for a whistleblower? transferring 1.5 million documents to an external drive is a matter of minutes. you guys are being ridiculous, and it honestly flabbergasts me that people supposedly tech-literate think "oh well 1.5 million documents clearly takes a long time" as if he was photocopying them by hand and carrying them out in cardboard boxes.
as to the tropological distinction between "spy" and "whistleblower" i dont place much value on it. call him a whistleblower or a "spy" for the american people, i dont care. the act stands on its own
I question if you even use computers or work in document processing of any sort if you think 1.5 million files would be easy to work with. I don't care how compressed they are or how fast the USB drive is, it would take time and preparation to get those documents read to be downloaded and take out of the office.
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On April 03 2018 02:30 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2018 02:26 Adreme wrote:
This Amazon thing is just so annoying. It will not have any lasting impact on anything involving the economy or Amazon because at the end of the day people will choose cheaper convenience over going to a store every single time so Amazon will keep growing and this "scandal" will mean nothing, but I just do not understand the logic of the president attacking an American company and causing the stock market to tank today because right now it is exclusively because of him. Because Amazon isn't willing to suck up to him. It sadly is just that simple.
It has nothing to do with Amazon. The owner of Amazon also owns the Washington Post and because they do not kiss his ass he decided to try and cost a major American company a lot of value. It will not cause long term damage which is what people are afraid of, but it is still reckless, stupid, and petty to do.
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On April 03 2018 02:30 IgnE wrote:
if you dont know whats in all 1.5 million documents how do you know youve gotten "all" the evidence you need? you think sitting on the nsa network and spending days or weeks poring over all of those documents is a safe practice for a whistleblower? transferring 1.5 million documents to an external drive is a matter of minutes. you guys are being ridiculous, and it honestly flabbergasts me that people supposedly tech-literate think "oh well 1.5 million documents clearly takes a long time" as if he was photocopying them by hand and carrying them out in cardboard boxes.
as to the tropological distinction between "spy" and "whistleblower" i dont place much value on it. call him a whistleblower or a "spy" for the american people, i dont care. the act stands on its own
there’s a lot of dishonesty in equating a spy and a whisteblower.
and is it your superior imagination that places all those documents in the INCRIMINATINGEVIDENCE_ANDONEMILLIONMORETHINGS.zip on Snowden’s desktop to make your matter of minutes (citation needed) claim true here?
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On April 03 2018 02:30 IgnE wrote:
if you dont know whats in all 1.5 million documents how do you know youve gotten "all" the evidence you need? you think sitting on the nsa network and spending days or weeks poring over all of those documents is a safe practice for a whistleblower? transferring 1.5 million documents to an external drive is a matter of minutes. you guys are being ridiculous, and it honestly flabbergasts me that people supposedly tech-literate think "oh well 1.5 million documents clearly takes a long time" as if he was photocopying them by hand and carrying them out in cardboard boxes.
as to the tropological distinction between "spy" and "whistleblower" i dont place much value on it. call him a whistleblower or a "spy" for the american people, i dont care. the act stands on its own
Edward Snowden started stealing documents from NSA at least 8 months before he ran away to Russia. The publicly released versions of Snowden's documents are stuff like Powerpoint presentations and PDFs and Word documents. Downloading 1.5 million of those would take a hell of a long time.
Snowden used a scraper, the same kind of program that archives entire websites, to take every document he could off of certain NSA Top Secret systems. That's literally the opposite of selective and careful disclosure.
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please tell us more about your experiences w microsoft word and proprietary legal docketing software, plansix. im sure it will tell us a lot about snowden's capabilities to snatch a bunch of documents on a network
the fact is that the more unknown documents there are, the longer it takes to determine their relevance and the more likely it is that you should just grab everything and sort it out in a safe place
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On April 03 2018 02:42 TheLordofAwesome wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2018 02:30 IgnE wrote:
if you dont know whats in all 1.5 million documents how do you know youve gotten "all" the evidence you need? you think sitting on the nsa network and spending days or weeks poring over all of those documents is a safe practice for a whistleblower? transferring 1.5 million documents to an external drive is a matter of minutes. you guys are being ridiculous, and it honestly flabbergasts me that people supposedly tech-literate think "oh well 1.5 million documents clearly takes a long time" as if he was photocopying them by hand and carrying them out in cardboard boxes.
as to the tropological distinction between "spy" and "whistleblower" i dont place much value on it. call him a whistleblower or a "spy" for the american people, i dont care. the act stands on its own Edward Snowden started stealing documents from NSA at least 8 months before he ran away to Russia. The publicly released versions of Snowden's documents are stuff like Powerpoint presentations and PDFs and Word documents. Downloading 1.5 million of those would take a hell of a long time.
longer than it takes to read them all and only download those that are strictly relevant?
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EPT
