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On August 23 2018 08:33 Mohdoo wrote:
Anyone have any theories why Cohen flipped like a pancake while Manafort has shown no signs of flinching? It feels like Manafort remains confident he'll be just fine.
Perhaps he hates the American IC enough that he'll never admit defeat? I feel like any powers that would help Manafort in this way would also apply to Cohen. #1 reason would probably be the raid on his office.
He's a lawyer, he knows a lot of the evidence they will have on him and can speculate what else they might know. Conclude from that that his situation is fucked and decide co-operation is his only chance to avoid complete ruination.
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5930 Posts
While we're talking about Cohen flipping, this WSJ has a pretty good timeline detailing why Cohen might have flipped. The general conclusion seems to be that Cohen figured out that Trump was going to drag him through the mud and leave him there while the SDNY walls were simultaneously closing in on him.
Of interest is this quote:
Mr. Cohen’s father urged him not to protect the president, saying he didn’t survive the Holocaust to have his name sullied by Mr. Trump, according to a person who was told about the conversation. The elder Mr. Cohen couldn’t be reached for comment.
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On August 23 2018 05:11 Doodsmack wrote:
The walls are closing in. Trump did not want Cohen to flip. All of these legal cases are converging and it will soon be impossible to deny that Trump is a criminal; the only defense is that "everyone else does it too." I just want to know what cohen has to say about "conspiracy to collude."
The sad thing is a lot of people already knew he was crook and look at how many people in his circles are. -_-
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United Kingdom10010 Posts
The saddest thing is that people are so unapologetic about voting such an obvious gang of criminals into the WH and are even doubling down on their support just out of ideology. The principles of American democracy have really gone down the shitter haven't they?
Of course, the crimes they have committed aren't really crimes to conservatives. Tax fraud is just getting what was yours to begin with, right?
Campaign finance violations are just doing whatever it takes to win.
On the other hand, it would be interesting to see what would have happened if this style of investigation was carried out into every president.
I'll bet there's not been a clean cut guy in office in the US at all.
I think the only difference with Trump is how blatant they are about it.
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On August 23 2018 16:28 Jockmcplop wrote:
The saddest thing is that people are so unapologetic about voting such an obvious gang of criminals into the WH and are even doubling down on their support just out of ideology. The principles of American democracy have really gone down the shitter haven't they?
Of course, the crimes they have committed aren't really crimes to conservatives. Tax fraud is just getting what was yours to begin with, right?
Campaign finance violations are just doing whatever it takes to win.
On the other hand, it would be interesting to see what would have happened if this style of investigation was carried out into every president.
I'll bet there's not been a clean cut guy in office in the US at all.
I think the only difference with Trump is how blatant they are about it.
I think Obama was as close as you get to a politician with genuine integrity. I believe he’s really a decent person but I might be naive.
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I think there is not an extremely wealthy person around that has not done some form of shady tax evason scheme. The difference seems to me, that most others are not stupid enough to leave those things to "professionals". The stupidity of using your own charity foundation to buy paintings of yourself can only be done by someone uniquely "talented". If you have someone like that routinely overruling his consultants and hiring the kind of untalented personel we see surround him now, the result can only be a clusterfuck.
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On August 23 2018 16:57 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2018 16:28 Jockmcplop wrote:
The saddest thing is that people are so unapologetic about voting such an obvious gang of criminals into the WH and are even doubling down on their support just out of ideology. The principles of American democracy have really gone down the shitter haven't they?
Of course, the crimes they have committed aren't really crimes to conservatives. Tax fraud is just getting what was yours to begin with, right?
Campaign finance violations are just doing whatever it takes to win.
On the other hand, it would be interesting to see what would have happened if this style of investigation was carried out into every president.
I'll bet there's not been a clean cut guy in office in the US at all.
I think the only difference with Trump is how blatant they are about it. I think Obama was as close as you get to a politician with genuine integrity. I believe he’s really a decent person but I might be naive.
Obama absolutely wasn't perfect, many things he did weren't great. That's a fact.
The question remains, how much of that was actually stuff he wanted to do. Here's the thing, he absolutely wanted to close the internationally illegal US concentration camp. I believe firmly that he genuinely wanted to close Gitmo. Something prevented that, and i'm pretty sure that's the same source for the also highly illegal drone strikes.
But as far as presidents go, he was a good'un. Probably one of the best ones/most sensible ones the US had in the last few decades (and i only limit that because that's how far my knowledge goes back).
I know, the usual suspects will argue that Obama was the worst thing ever happened because reasons, but if you look at shit now, how can you possibly argue that the current administration even makes an effort to appear legit? How much money we betting that Manaford will be pardoned - keep in mind that, even if you call everything a witch hunt, phoney and whatever, he's tried and convicted of crimes. He's an actual criminal, facing a decade in jail.
Looking at the current administration and saying to yourself "yep, that' show things should be, murica" makes me legitimately question your sanity. Not even joking or being facetious, you actually and literally have to be insane to be okay with Trump and his cronies. He ran on draining the swamp, remember?
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On August 23 2018 18:00 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2018 16:57 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 23 2018 16:28 Jockmcplop wrote:
The saddest thing is that people are so unapologetic about voting such an obvious gang of criminals into the WH and are even doubling down on their support just out of ideology. The principles of American democracy have really gone down the shitter haven't they?
Of course, the crimes they have committed aren't really crimes to conservatives. Tax fraud is just getting what was yours to begin with, right?
Campaign finance violations are just doing whatever it takes to win.
On the other hand, it would be interesting to see what would have happened if this style of investigation was carried out into every president.
I'll bet there's not been a clean cut guy in office in the US at all.
I think the only difference with Trump is how blatant they are about it. I think Obama was as close as you get to a politician with genuine integrity. I believe he’s really a decent person but I might be naive. Obama absolutely wasn't perfect, many things he did weren't great. That's a fact. The question remains, how much of that was actually stuff he wanted to do. Here's the thing, he absolutely wanted to close the internationally illegal US concentration camp. I believe firmly that he genuinely wanted to close Gitmo. Something prevented that, and i'm pretty sure that's the same source for the also highly illegal drone strikes. But as far as presidents go, he was a good'un. Probably one of the best ones/most sensible ones the US had in the last few decades (and i only limit that because that's how far my knowledge goes back). I know, the usual suspects will argue that Obama was the worst thing ever happened because reasons, but if you look at shit now, how can you possibly argue that the current administration even makes an effort to appear legit? How much money we betting that Manaford will be pardoned - keep in mind that, even if you call everything a witch hunt, phoney and whatever, he's tried and convicted of crimes. He's an actual criminal, facing a decade in jail. Looking at the current administration and saying to yourself "yep, that' show things should be, murica" makes me legitimately question your sanity. Not even joking or being facetious, you actually and literally have to be insane to be okay with Trump and his cronies. He ran on draining the swamp, remember?
He obviously wanted to do something about guns as well. I remember listening to his address after one of the shootings - I'm sorry I can't remember which one - where it sounded like he was about to cry over not being able to actually do anything. He sounded like he felt so powerless and heartbroken.
Oh, for the glorious days of a President with empathy. Or human emotions.
On August 23 2018 10:55 Womwomwom wrote:While we're talking about Cohen flipping, this WSJ has a pretty good timeline detailing why Cohen might have flipped. The general conclusion seems to be that Cohen figured out that Trump was going to drag him through the mud and leave him there while the SDNY walls were simultaneously closing in on him. Of interest is this quote: Show nested quote +Mr. Cohen’s father urged him not to protect the president, saying he didn’t survive the Holocaust to have his name sullied by Mr. Trump, according to a person who was told about the conversation. The elder Mr. Cohen couldn’t be reached for comment.
If that's true... yikes.
ELDER COHEN: "Michael, it's your father here. I've got a massive guilt bomb to drop in your lap, the kind that's almost equivalent in power to a themonuclear detonation, which I've been carrying around for a special occasion for a good eighty odd years. Ready?"
There is another option, and I'm sure it'll cause fits of laughter in some of you at my naivety, but it's also possible that he just plain had enough. Lawyers do shady stuff, it's the reason everyone hates lawyers. But they do it as a profession, and there's a divide there. As part of their job they handle their clients' affairs, and then they compartmentalise and move on. But when you get sat down by a special counsel and they start ramming home that they're defending a criminal, that isn't always so easy to compartmentalise. Maybe he just got tired of the job, and wanted out, especially once it became obvious Mueller was making inroads. It switched from 'defend client's interests' to 'pretend my client isn't the monster I know he is in front of someone who knows better'.
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United Kingdom10010 Posts
On August 23 2018 18:00 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2018 16:57 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 23 2018 16:28 Jockmcplop wrote:
The saddest thing is that people are so unapologetic about voting such an obvious gang of criminals into the WH and are even doubling down on their support just out of ideology. The principles of American democracy have really gone down the shitter haven't they?
Of course, the crimes they have committed aren't really crimes to conservatives. Tax fraud is just getting what was yours to begin with, right?
Campaign finance violations are just doing whatever it takes to win.
On the other hand, it would be interesting to see what would have happened if this style of investigation was carried out into every president.
I'll bet there's not been a clean cut guy in office in the US at all.
I think the only difference with Trump is how blatant they are about it. I think Obama was as close as you get to a politician with genuine integrity. I believe he’s really a decent person but I might be naive. Obama absolutely wasn't perfect, many things he did weren't great. That's a fact. The question remains, how much of that was actually stuff he wanted to do. Here's the thing, he absolutely wanted to close the internationally illegal US concentration camp. I believe firmly that he genuinely wanted to close Gitmo. Something prevented that, and i'm pretty sure that's the same source for the also highly illegal drone strikes. But as far as presidents go, he was a good'un. Probably one of the best ones/most sensible ones the US had in the last few decades (and i only limit that because that's how far my knowledge goes back). I know, the usual suspects will argue that Obama was the worst thing ever happened because reasons, but if you look at shit now, how can you possibly argue that the current administration even makes an effort to appear legit? How much money we betting that Manaford will be pardoned - keep in mind that, even if you call everything a witch hunt, phoney and whatever, he's tried and convicted of crimes. He's an actual criminal, facing a decade in jail. Looking at the current administration and saying to yourself "yep, that' show things should be, murica" makes me legitimately question your sanity. Not even joking or being facetious, you actually and literally have to be insane to be okay with Trump and his cronies. He ran on draining the swamp, remember?
There's a difference between thinking Trump is okay and being okay with him being in office. xDaunt argues that his character, law breaking etc. is irrelevant to xDaunt's support of him because he is enacting the right policies. This kind of short sighted lack of belief in the law is far more damaging than the delusion that Trump is actually just a good man being bullied and hunted by the dreaded MSM and their establishment buddies.
On August 23 2018 18:13 iamthedave wrote:
There is another option, and I'm sure it'll cause fits of laughter in some of you at my naivety, but it's also possible that he just plain had enough. Lawyers do shady stuff, it's the reason everyone hates lawyers. But they do it as a profession, and there's a divide there. As part of their job they handle their clients' affairs, and then they compartmentalise and move on. But when you get sat down by a special counsel and they start ramming home that they're defending a criminal, that isn't always so easy to compartmentalise. Maybe he just got tired of the job, and wanted out, especially once it became obvious Mueller was making inroads. It switched from 'defend client's interests' to 'pretend my client isn't the monster I know he is in front of someone who knows better'.
I think its more likely that getting caught has induced a fit of morality. This might seem like a cynical view, but it does genuinely happen alot. People do bad things, often over a long period of time, but they can change and gain moral perspective simply through the act of being caught and punished.
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From across the pond looks pretty bad from the Trump administration, although really nothing that surprising.
I'm assuming that between Trump Propaganda and Ignorance he still has a strong suport base?
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On August 23 2018 20:13 MoonfireSpam wrote:
From across the pond looks pretty bad from the Trump administration, although really nothing that surprising.
I'm assuming that between Trump Propaganda and Ignorance he still has a strong suport base?
Still at 42% according to gallup. It has decreased a little bit over the last few weeks, but not enough to be considered an anomaly
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The activity resulting from the heat turning up on Trump will be reflected less in polls, more in turnout and the outcome of the coming elections.
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There's a difference between thinking Trump is okay and being okay with him being in office. xDaunt argues that his character, law breaking etc. is irrelevant to xDaunt's support of him because he is enacting the right policies. This kind of short sighted lack of belief in the law is far more damaging than the delusion that Trump is actually just a good man being bullied and hunted by the dreaded MSM and their establishment buddies.
Nah. This is trying to justify stupidity by saying "he's a crook and pathological liar but he does the right thing from my view, so all good".
Btw, xDaunt (not that sure about Danglars anymore) absolutely do not argue like you say. They in fact absolutely argue that Trump is playing 7D chess, trolling everyone and generally a great guy with big hands, very stable.
Sidenote, it seems like Trump is getting cold feet since he's now "putting it out there" that impeachment would be disastrous for the US economy.
“If I ever got impeached, I think the market would crash. I think everybody would be very poor,” adding that Americans would see economic “numbers that you wouldn’t believe in reverse”. In characteristic ebullient style, he also doubted it will happen.
“I don’t know how you can impeach somebody who’s done a great job,” he said in an interview with the conservative Fox News channel.
He gave himself, unsurprisingly, an A+ for his work so far.
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On August 23 2018 18:21 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2018 18:00 m4ini wrote:On August 23 2018 16:57 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 23 2018 16:28 Jockmcplop wrote:
The saddest thing is that people are so unapologetic about voting such an obvious gang of criminals into the WH and are even doubling down on their support just out of ideology. The principles of American democracy have really gone down the shitter haven't they?
Of course, the crimes they have committed aren't really crimes to conservatives. Tax fraud is just getting what was yours to begin with, right?
Campaign finance violations are just doing whatever it takes to win.
On the other hand, it would be interesting to see what would have happened if this style of investigation was carried out into every president.
I'll bet there's not been a clean cut guy in office in the US at all.
I think the only difference with Trump is how blatant they are about it. I think Obama was as close as you get to a politician with genuine integrity. I believe he’s really a decent person but I might be naive. Obama absolutely wasn't perfect, many things he did weren't great. That's a fact. The question remains, how much of that was actually stuff he wanted to do. Here's the thing, he absolutely wanted to close the internationally illegal US concentration camp. I believe firmly that he genuinely wanted to close Gitmo. Something prevented that, and i'm pretty sure that's the same source for the also highly illegal drone strikes. But as far as presidents go, he was a good'un. Probably one of the best ones/most sensible ones the US had in the last few decades (and i only limit that because that's how far my knowledge goes back). I know, the usual suspects will argue that Obama was the worst thing ever happened because reasons, but if you look at shit now, how can you possibly argue that the current administration even makes an effort to appear legit? How much money we betting that Manaford will be pardoned - keep in mind that, even if you call everything a witch hunt, phoney and whatever, he's tried and convicted of crimes. He's an actual criminal, facing a decade in jail. Looking at the current administration and saying to yourself "yep, that' show things should be, murica" makes me legitimately question your sanity. Not even joking or being facetious, you actually and literally have to be insane to be okay with Trump and his cronies. He ran on draining the swamp, remember? There's a difference between thinking Trump is okay and being okay with him being in office. xDaunt argues that his character, law breaking etc. is irrelevant to xDaunt's support of him because he is enacting the right policies. This kind of short sighted lack of belief in the law is far more damaging than the delusion that Trump is actually just a good man being bullied and hunted by the dreaded MSM and their establishment buddies. Show nested quote +On August 23 2018 18:13 iamthedave wrote:
There is another option, and I'm sure it'll cause fits of laughter in some of you at my naivety, but it's also possible that he just plain had enough. Lawyers do shady stuff, it's the reason everyone hates lawyers. But they do it as a profession, and there's a divide there. As part of their job they handle their clients' affairs, and then they compartmentalise and move on. But when you get sat down by a special counsel and they start ramming home that they're defending a criminal, that isn't always so easy to compartmentalise. Maybe he just got tired of the job, and wanted out, especially once it became obvious Mueller was making inroads. It switched from 'defend client's interests' to 'pretend my client isn't the monster I know he is in front of someone who knows better'. I think its more likely that getting caught has induced a fit of morality. This might seem like a cynical view, but it does genuinely happen alot. People do bad things, often over a long period of time, but they can change and gain moral perspective simply through the act of being caught and punished.
It's ironic you said that, as I'm just finishing up The Shield, whose penultimate episode almost literally has that happening.
xDaunt's functionalist argument is also ironic given he's an actual lawyer, and I'd have thought he'd respect the law more than anyone accordingly. But then the Republcans are the law and order and constitution first party and wipe their arses with both constantly when it suits them so...
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On August 23 2018 22:01 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2018 18:21 Jockmcplop wrote:On August 23 2018 18:00 m4ini wrote:On August 23 2018 16:57 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 23 2018 16:28 Jockmcplop wrote:
The saddest thing is that people are so unapologetic about voting such an obvious gang of criminals into the WH and are even doubling down on their support just out of ideology. The principles of American democracy have really gone down the shitter haven't they?
Of course, the crimes they have committed aren't really crimes to conservatives. Tax fraud is just getting what was yours to begin with, right?
Campaign finance violations are just doing whatever it takes to win.
On the other hand, it would be interesting to see what would have happened if this style of investigation was carried out into every president.
I'll bet there's not been a clean cut guy in office in the US at all.
I think the only difference with Trump is how blatant they are about it. I think Obama was as close as you get to a politician with genuine integrity. I believe he’s really a decent person but I might be naive. Obama absolutely wasn't perfect, many things he did weren't great. That's a fact. The question remains, how much of that was actually stuff he wanted to do. Here's the thing, he absolutely wanted to close the internationally illegal US concentration camp. I believe firmly that he genuinely wanted to close Gitmo. Something prevented that, and i'm pretty sure that's the same source for the also highly illegal drone strikes. But as far as presidents go, he was a good'un. Probably one of the best ones/most sensible ones the US had in the last few decades (and i only limit that because that's how far my knowledge goes back). I know, the usual suspects will argue that Obama was the worst thing ever happened because reasons, but if you look at shit now, how can you possibly argue that the current administration even makes an effort to appear legit? How much money we betting that Manaford will be pardoned - keep in mind that, even if you call everything a witch hunt, phoney and whatever, he's tried and convicted of crimes. He's an actual criminal, facing a decade in jail. Looking at the current administration and saying to yourself "yep, that' show things should be, murica" makes me legitimately question your sanity. Not even joking or being facetious, you actually and literally have to be insane to be okay with Trump and his cronies. He ran on draining the swamp, remember? There's a difference between thinking Trump is okay and being okay with him being in office. xDaunt argues that his character, law breaking etc. is irrelevant to xDaunt's support of him because he is enacting the right policies. This kind of short sighted lack of belief in the law is far more damaging than the delusion that Trump is actually just a good man being bullied and hunted by the dreaded MSM and their establishment buddies. On August 23 2018 18:13 iamthedave wrote:
There is another option, and I'm sure it'll cause fits of laughter in some of you at my naivety, but it's also possible that he just plain had enough. Lawyers do shady stuff, it's the reason everyone hates lawyers. But they do it as a profession, and there's a divide there. As part of their job they handle their clients' affairs, and then they compartmentalise and move on. But when you get sat down by a special counsel and they start ramming home that they're defending a criminal, that isn't always so easy to compartmentalise. Maybe he just got tired of the job, and wanted out, especially once it became obvious Mueller was making inroads. It switched from 'defend client's interests' to 'pretend my client isn't the monster I know he is in front of someone who knows better'. I think its more likely that getting caught has induced a fit of morality. This might seem like a cynical view, but it does genuinely happen alot. People do bad things, often over a long period of time, but they can change and gain moral perspective simply through the act of being caught and punished. It's ironic you said that, as I'm just finishing up The Shield, whose penultimate episode almost literally has that happening. Xdaunt's functionalist argument is also ironic given he's an actual lawyer, and I'd have thought he'd respect the law more than anyone accordingly. But then the Republcans are the law and order and constitution first party and wipe their arses with both constantly when it suits them so...
There's one thing that you conflate here, and xDaunt is one of the best examples for that one.
Law has nothing to do with justice. There's lawyers who try to be just - and there's others, where the "lawyer" part just implies that they know how to get around it/get away with unjust things because "technically" they didn't break the law.
Don't forget that Cohen is a lawyer too.
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Lawyers are as varied as any other profession. I’ve met more than a few that are invested in the justice and equitability. And others who just see it as a system to seek the outcomes their clients want. But people shouldn’t look to law for salvation or any form of truth. It is a system that attempts to resolve conflicts and attempts to make people “whole”, rather than some arbitrator of truth.
Edit: Also, we should avoid talking about a specific poster. It is never healthy for discussion.
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What’s up with all the presuppositions about xDaunts views towards law and justice? If you have a premise to back up your accusations, please do so succinctly so that it doesn’t come off as an ad hominem. There’s a difference between...
“”xDaunt has no respect for the law/justice.”
and...
“xDaunt, how can it make sense for someone to say they respect the rule of law and the idea that criminals should be punished, while also supporting the idea that a (very likely) criminal can be the President of the US?”
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On August 23 2018 16:28 Jockmcplop wrote:
The saddest thing is that people are so unapologetic about voting such an obvious gang of criminals into the WH and are even doubling down on their support just out of ideology. The principles of American democracy have really gone down the shitter haven't they?
Of course, the crimes they have committed aren't really crimes to conservatives. Tax fraud is just getting what was yours to begin with, right?
Campaign finance violations are just doing whatever it takes to win.
On the other hand, it would be interesting to see what would have happened if this style of investigation was carried out into every president.
I'll bet there's not been a clean cut guy in office in the US at all.
I think the only difference with Trump is how blatant they are about it.
If this style of investigation was done on every president, most of them would be fine. Or at least many would be. And they might lose a few associates, but not too many, and not ones so central.
Typical presidents are much more careful about what they do; and make sure to be just inside what the law allows. They also vet their staff more carefully so they don't have staffing problems like this.
@m4ini what prevented the closing of gitmo is congress. congress was heavily against closing gitmo and passed some legislation on the matter (with veto-proof majorities iirc).
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EPT
