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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
The cake lawsuit is interesting because it sounds like he's completely pre-empting Colorado's ability to actually follow through on SCOTUS's decision in his last case. Looks like he really wants them to make an actual ruling.
Wonder if they'll rule procedurally on a lawsuit that is specific constructed and pitched by the mans lawyer as being completely outside procedural grounds.
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On August 18 2018 07:39 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +The Christian baker whose refusal to make a wedding cake for a same-sex couple was upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court is suing Colorado after the state ruled that he had discriminated against another customer, this time a transgender woman.
In a lawsuit filed Tuesday, attorneys for the baker, Jack Phillips, who owns Masterpiece Cakeshop, claim that Colorado is on a "crusade to crush" him because of his religious beliefs.
“After Phillips defended himself all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court and won, he thought Colorado’s hostility toward his faith was over,” the lawsuit states. "He was wrong."
“Colorado has renewed its war against him by embarking on another attempt to prosecute him, in direct conflict with the Supreme Court’s ruling in his favor. This lawsuit is necessary to stop Colorado’s continuing persecution of Phillips,” the suit continues.
The Supreme Court sided with Phillips in June in a 7-2 decision, saying legal proceedings in Colorado had shown a hostility toward the baker’s religious views. However, the opinion was a narrow one, applying to the specific facts of that case only. The court did not rule on whether business owners can invoke religious objections to refuse service to LGBTQ people.
In a decision issued on June 28 — less than a month after the Supreme Court ruled in Phillips’ favor in Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission — the commission found probable cause that Phillips had discriminated against Autumn Scardina by refusing to make a cake celebrating, in her words, “the 7th year anniversary of my transition from male to female.” NBC NewsThe persecution against the Colorado baker resumes. You may remember the supreme court case resulting from Jack Phillips of Masterpiece Cakeshop appealing the Colorado Human Rights Commission's judgement that he illegally discriminated against sexual orientation. The Supreme Court determined 7-2 that the commission had not applied Colorado laws neutrally to the baker, violating his first amendment rights of religious expression in open hostility to his particular religious beliefs. Journalists at the time highlighted how narrow the ruling was on the grounds of religious animus. This case arises from a transgender lawyer who asked Phillips to bake her a cake celebrating her transition on the same day that the Supreme Court decided to hear Phillip's case. He refused to custom design and bake it, and claims his refusal lies within the general rights of bakers to also refuse to bake cakes with anti-gay or anti-trangender messages that they disagree with. He will again be represented by the Alliance Defending Freedom. This time he's also suing the commission for $100,000 for targeting him and punishing him for his religious beliefs. The optics of the government once again punishing a religious baker for his religious beliefs, and his recourse to the courts, may figure into the coming national dialogue in advance of the midterm elections. [PDF] His lawsuit. + Show Spoiler +In accordance to the bans and subjective moderation actions occurring the last time this case was mentioned in the thread, I will not be actively arguing the merits of this case in the thread. This is only intended to inform and prompt discussion from others
I know there are specific anti-gay Biblical verses, but are there any specific anti-transgender Biblical verses? I'm curious as to what element of one's Christian faith is being used to argue "baking a cake that is used in a celebration of one's gender identity is against my religion". Or is the argument just "I don't need to bake for everyone, and I didn't want to bake for this person, which is my choice"?
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On August 18 2018 09:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2018 07:39 Danglars wrote:The Christian baker whose refusal to make a wedding cake for a same-sex couple was upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court is suing Colorado after the state ruled that he had discriminated against another customer, this time a transgender woman.
In a lawsuit filed Tuesday, attorneys for the baker, Jack Phillips, who owns Masterpiece Cakeshop, claim that Colorado is on a "crusade to crush" him because of his religious beliefs.
“After Phillips defended himself all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court and won, he thought Colorado’s hostility toward his faith was over,” the lawsuit states. "He was wrong."
“Colorado has renewed its war against him by embarking on another attempt to prosecute him, in direct conflict with the Supreme Court’s ruling in his favor. This lawsuit is necessary to stop Colorado’s continuing persecution of Phillips,” the suit continues.
The Supreme Court sided with Phillips in June in a 7-2 decision, saying legal proceedings in Colorado had shown a hostility toward the baker’s religious views. However, the opinion was a narrow one, applying to the specific facts of that case only. The court did not rule on whether business owners can invoke religious objections to refuse service to LGBTQ people.
In a decision issued on June 28 — less than a month after the Supreme Court ruled in Phillips’ favor in Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission — the commission found probable cause that Phillips had discriminated against Autumn Scardina by refusing to make a cake celebrating, in her words, “the 7th year anniversary of my transition from male to female.” NBC NewsThe persecution against the Colorado baker resumes. You may remember the supreme court case resulting from Jack Phillips of Masterpiece Cakeshop appealing the Colorado Human Rights Commission's judgement that he illegally discriminated against sexual orientation. The Supreme Court determined 7-2 that the commission had not applied Colorado laws neutrally to the baker, violating his first amendment rights of religious expression in open hostility to his particular religious beliefs. Journalists at the time highlighted how narrow the ruling was on the grounds of religious animus. This case arises from a transgender lawyer who asked Phillips to bake her a cake celebrating her transition on the same day that the Supreme Court decided to hear Phillip's case. He refused to custom design and bake it, and claims his refusal lies within the general rights of bakers to also refuse to bake cakes with anti-gay or anti-trangender messages that they disagree with. He will again be represented by the Alliance Defending Freedom. This time he's also suing the commission for $100,000 for targeting him and punishing him for his religious beliefs. The optics of the government once again punishing a religious baker for his religious beliefs, and his recourse to the courts, may figure into the coming national dialogue in advance of the midterm elections. [PDF] His lawsuit. + Show Spoiler +In accordance to the bans and subjective moderation actions occurring the last time this case was mentioned in the thread, I will not be actively arguing the merits of this case in the thread. This is only intended to inform and prompt discussion from others I know there are specific anti-gay Biblical verses, but are there any specific anti-transgender Biblical verses? I'm curious as to what element of one's Christian faith is being used to argue "baking a cake that is used in a celebration of one's gender identity is against my religion". Or is the argument just "I don't need to bake for everyone, and I didn't want to bake for this person, which is my choice"?
I'm sure there woudln't be to such a degree of specificity; because such a thing would not have been medically possible at the time. People don't argue against things they can't think of happening. Non-issues jsut go unmentioned as well, even if they were thought of.
In general, there's so much stuff in the Bible, as with amny similar things, that you can find arguments for/against anything if you look. You would have to look a little broader though. While I could point to some of the theology that might underpin such a claim, I coudln't point to the actual verses underpinning that theology if you need that level of specificity.
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On August 18 2018 09:21 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2018 09:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 18 2018 07:39 Danglars wrote:The Christian baker whose refusal to make a wedding cake for a same-sex couple was upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court is suing Colorado after the state ruled that he had discriminated against another customer, this time a transgender woman.
In a lawsuit filed Tuesday, attorneys for the baker, Jack Phillips, who owns Masterpiece Cakeshop, claim that Colorado is on a "crusade to crush" him because of his religious beliefs.
“After Phillips defended himself all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court and won, he thought Colorado’s hostility toward his faith was over,” the lawsuit states. "He was wrong."
“Colorado has renewed its war against him by embarking on another attempt to prosecute him, in direct conflict with the Supreme Court’s ruling in his favor. This lawsuit is necessary to stop Colorado’s continuing persecution of Phillips,” the suit continues.
The Supreme Court sided with Phillips in June in a 7-2 decision, saying legal proceedings in Colorado had shown a hostility toward the baker’s religious views. However, the opinion was a narrow one, applying to the specific facts of that case only. The court did not rule on whether business owners can invoke religious objections to refuse service to LGBTQ people.
In a decision issued on June 28 — less than a month after the Supreme Court ruled in Phillips’ favor in Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission — the commission found probable cause that Phillips had discriminated against Autumn Scardina by refusing to make a cake celebrating, in her words, “the 7th year anniversary of my transition from male to female.” NBC NewsThe persecution against the Colorado baker resumes. You may remember the supreme court case resulting from Jack Phillips of Masterpiece Cakeshop appealing the Colorado Human Rights Commission's judgement that he illegally discriminated against sexual orientation. The Supreme Court determined 7-2 that the commission had not applied Colorado laws neutrally to the baker, violating his first amendment rights of religious expression in open hostility to his particular religious beliefs. Journalists at the time highlighted how narrow the ruling was on the grounds of religious animus. This case arises from a transgender lawyer who asked Phillips to bake her a cake celebrating her transition on the same day that the Supreme Court decided to hear Phillip's case. He refused to custom design and bake it, and claims his refusal lies within the general rights of bakers to also refuse to bake cakes with anti-gay or anti-trangender messages that they disagree with. He will again be represented by the Alliance Defending Freedom. This time he's also suing the commission for $100,000 for targeting him and punishing him for his religious beliefs. The optics of the government once again punishing a religious baker for his religious beliefs, and his recourse to the courts, may figure into the coming national dialogue in advance of the midterm elections. [PDF] His lawsuit. + Show Spoiler +In accordance to the bans and subjective moderation actions occurring the last time this case was mentioned in the thread, I will not be actively arguing the merits of this case in the thread. This is only intended to inform and prompt discussion from others I know there are specific anti-gay Biblical verses, but are there any specific anti-transgender Biblical verses? I'm curious as to what element of one's Christian faith is being used to argue "baking a cake that is used in a celebration of one's gender identity is against my religion". Or is the argument just "I don't need to bake for everyone, and I didn't want to bake for this person, which is my choice"? I'm sure there woudln't be to such a degree of specificity; because such a thing would not have been medically possible at the time. People don't argue against things they can't think of happening. Non-issues jsut go unmentioned as well, even if they were thought of. In general, there's so much stuff in the Bible, as with amny similar things, that you can find arguments for/against anything if you look. You would have to look a little broader though. While I could point to some of the theology that might underpin such a claim, I coudln't point to the actual verses underpinning that theology if you need that level of specificity.
I agree. I'm primarily curious how closely this second lawsuit (transgender) is related to the first (gay marriage). I'm wondering how analogous the two situations are, and if both defenses/ justifications will be the same. And, of course, I'm curious if the courts will respond in the same way.
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My guess would be that for a lot of people (who are neither), being trans is basically the same as being gay. The idea would be that a man who dresses like a woman obviously wants to have sex with men.
I think especially among the "bible says that gay people are bad" community, a lot of different stuff will be thrown into the "gay" basket.
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On August 18 2018 09:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2018 07:39 Danglars wrote:The Christian baker whose refusal to make a wedding cake for a same-sex couple was upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court is suing Colorado after the state ruled that he had discriminated against another customer, this time a transgender woman.
In a lawsuit filed Tuesday, attorneys for the baker, Jack Phillips, who owns Masterpiece Cakeshop, claim that Colorado is on a "crusade to crush" him because of his religious beliefs.
“After Phillips defended himself all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court and won, he thought Colorado’s hostility toward his faith was over,” the lawsuit states. "He was wrong."
“Colorado has renewed its war against him by embarking on another attempt to prosecute him, in direct conflict with the Supreme Court’s ruling in his favor. This lawsuit is necessary to stop Colorado’s continuing persecution of Phillips,” the suit continues.
The Supreme Court sided with Phillips in June in a 7-2 decision, saying legal proceedings in Colorado had shown a hostility toward the baker’s religious views. However, the opinion was a narrow one, applying to the specific facts of that case only. The court did not rule on whether business owners can invoke religious objections to refuse service to LGBTQ people.
In a decision issued on June 28 — less than a month after the Supreme Court ruled in Phillips’ favor in Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission — the commission found probable cause that Phillips had discriminated against Autumn Scardina by refusing to make a cake celebrating, in her words, “the 7th year anniversary of my transition from male to female.” NBC NewsThe persecution against the Colorado baker resumes. You may remember the supreme court case resulting from Jack Phillips of Masterpiece Cakeshop appealing the Colorado Human Rights Commission's judgement that he illegally discriminated against sexual orientation. The Supreme Court determined 7-2 that the commission had not applied Colorado laws neutrally to the baker, violating his first amendment rights of religious expression in open hostility to his particular religious beliefs. Journalists at the time highlighted how narrow the ruling was on the grounds of religious animus. This case arises from a transgender lawyer who asked Phillips to bake her a cake celebrating her transition on the same day that the Supreme Court decided to hear Phillip's case. He refused to custom design and bake it, and claims his refusal lies within the general rights of bakers to also refuse to bake cakes with anti-gay or anti-trangender messages that they disagree with. He will again be represented by the Alliance Defending Freedom. This time he's also suing the commission for $100,000 for targeting him and punishing him for his religious beliefs. The optics of the government once again punishing a religious baker for his religious beliefs, and his recourse to the courts, may figure into the coming national dialogue in advance of the midterm elections. [PDF] His lawsuit. + Show Spoiler +In accordance to the bans and subjective moderation actions occurring the last time this case was mentioned in the thread, I will not be actively arguing the merits of this case in the thread. This is only intended to inform and prompt discussion from others I know there are specific anti-gay Biblical verses, but are there any specific anti-transgender Biblical verses? I'm curious as to what element of one's Christian faith is being used to argue "baking a cake that is used in a celebration of one's gender identity is against my religion". Or is the argument just "I don't need to bake for everyone, and I didn't want to bake for this person, which is my choice"?
It's generally reliant on God's declaration that "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." and "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb." + Show Spoiler +Also: He created them male and female and blessed them. And he named them "Mankind" when they were created.
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Yeah, but the Bible is silent when it comes to birthday cakes and parties. And cakes in general. His is not partaking in a religious ceremony, it’s just a cake.
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On August 18 2018 09:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2018 09:21 zlefin wrote:On August 18 2018 09:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 18 2018 07:39 Danglars wrote:The Christian baker whose refusal to make a wedding cake for a same-sex couple was upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court is suing Colorado after the state ruled that he had discriminated against another customer, this time a transgender woman.
In a lawsuit filed Tuesday, attorneys for the baker, Jack Phillips, who owns Masterpiece Cakeshop, claim that Colorado is on a "crusade to crush" him because of his religious beliefs.
“After Phillips defended himself all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court and won, he thought Colorado’s hostility toward his faith was over,” the lawsuit states. "He was wrong."
“Colorado has renewed its war against him by embarking on another attempt to prosecute him, in direct conflict with the Supreme Court’s ruling in his favor. This lawsuit is necessary to stop Colorado’s continuing persecution of Phillips,” the suit continues.
The Supreme Court sided with Phillips in June in a 7-2 decision, saying legal proceedings in Colorado had shown a hostility toward the baker’s religious views. However, the opinion was a narrow one, applying to the specific facts of that case only. The court did not rule on whether business owners can invoke religious objections to refuse service to LGBTQ people.
In a decision issued on June 28 — less than a month after the Supreme Court ruled in Phillips’ favor in Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission — the commission found probable cause that Phillips had discriminated against Autumn Scardina by refusing to make a cake celebrating, in her words, “the 7th year anniversary of my transition from male to female.” NBC NewsThe persecution against the Colorado baker resumes. You may remember the supreme court case resulting from Jack Phillips of Masterpiece Cakeshop appealing the Colorado Human Rights Commission's judgement that he illegally discriminated against sexual orientation. The Supreme Court determined 7-2 that the commission had not applied Colorado laws neutrally to the baker, violating his first amendment rights of religious expression in open hostility to his particular religious beliefs. Journalists at the time highlighted how narrow the ruling was on the grounds of religious animus. This case arises from a transgender lawyer who asked Phillips to bake her a cake celebrating her transition on the same day that the Supreme Court decided to hear Phillip's case. He refused to custom design and bake it, and claims his refusal lies within the general rights of bakers to also refuse to bake cakes with anti-gay or anti-trangender messages that they disagree with. He will again be represented by the Alliance Defending Freedom. This time he's also suing the commission for $100,000 for targeting him and punishing him for his religious beliefs. The optics of the government once again punishing a religious baker for his religious beliefs, and his recourse to the courts, may figure into the coming national dialogue in advance of the midterm elections. [PDF] His lawsuit. + Show Spoiler +In accordance to the bans and subjective moderation actions occurring the last time this case was mentioned in the thread, I will not be actively arguing the merits of this case in the thread. This is only intended to inform and prompt discussion from others I know there are specific anti-gay Biblical verses, but are there any specific anti-transgender Biblical verses? I'm curious as to what element of one's Christian faith is being used to argue "baking a cake that is used in a celebration of one's gender identity is against my religion". Or is the argument just "I don't need to bake for everyone, and I didn't want to bake for this person, which is my choice"? I'm sure there woudln't be to such a degree of specificity; because such a thing would not have been medically possible at the time. People don't argue against things they can't think of happening. Non-issues jsut go unmentioned as well, even if they were thought of. In general, there's so much stuff in the Bible, as with amny similar things, that you can find arguments for/against anything if you look. You would have to look a little broader though. While I could point to some of the theology that might underpin such a claim, I coudln't point to the actual verses underpinning that theology if you need that level of specificity. I agree. I'm primarily curious how closely this second lawsuit (transgender) is related to the first (gay marriage). I'm wondering how analogous the two situations are, and if both defenses/ justifications will be the same. And, of course, I'm curious if the courts will respond in the same way.
I think the claims/defenses/justifications that will be used are mostly the same. But it'll be a long while before it gets to the supreme court, if it makes it there at all.
The main thing is that the courts can't (well, are unlikely to be able to) respond in the same way; as long as people are careful, which is likely, the courts won't be able to use the same grounds to punt on the case.
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The big question is whether cakes commemorating breast implants or body modification would also be turned down by the guy. I think it would be turned down by an Orthodox Jewish baker, at least, but it's harder to track when there's nothing quite so definite/recorded, official, and adapting to modernity as Talmudic law in Christiandom (outside of Catholicism).
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On August 18 2018 09:52 TheTenthDoc wrote:
The big question is whether cakes commemorating breast implants or body modification would also be turned down by the guy. I think it would be turned down by an Orthodox Jewish baker, at least, but it's harder to track when there's nothing quite so definite/recorded, official, and adapting to modernity as Talmudic law in Christiandom (outside of Catholicism).
Most protestantism churches have or had a royal personage as head of the branch. So any law they signed into effect would also be religious if taken to an extreme.
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On August 18 2018 07:39 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +The Christian baker whose refusal to make a wedding cake for a same-sex couple was upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court is suing Colorado after the state ruled that he had discriminated against another customer, this time a transgender woman.
In a lawsuit filed Tuesday, attorneys for the baker, Jack Phillips, who owns Masterpiece Cakeshop, claim that Colorado is on a "crusade to crush" him because of his religious beliefs.
“After Phillips defended himself all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court and won, he thought Colorado’s hostility toward his faith was over,” the lawsuit states. "He was wrong."
“Colorado has renewed its war against him by embarking on another attempt to prosecute him, in direct conflict with the Supreme Court’s ruling in his favor. This lawsuit is necessary to stop Colorado’s continuing persecution of Phillips,” the suit continues.
The Supreme Court sided with Phillips in June in a 7-2 decision, saying legal proceedings in Colorado had shown a hostility toward the baker’s religious views. However, the opinion was a narrow one, applying to the specific facts of that case only. The court did not rule on whether business owners can invoke religious objections to refuse service to LGBTQ people.
In a decision issued on June 28 — less than a month after the Supreme Court ruled in Phillips’ favor in Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission — the commission found probable cause that Phillips had discriminated against Autumn Scardina by refusing to make a cake celebrating, in her words, “the 7th year anniversary of my transition from male to female.” NBC NewsThe persecution against the Colorado baker resumes. You may remember the supreme court case resulting from Jack Phillips of Masterpiece Cakeshop appealing the Colorado Human Rights Commission's judgement that he illegally discriminated against sexual orientation. The Supreme Court determined 7-2 that the commission had not applied Colorado laws neutrally to the baker, violating his first amendment rights of religious expression in open hostility to his particular religious beliefs. Journalists at the time highlighted how narrow the ruling was on the grounds of religious animus. This case arises from a transgender lawyer who asked Phillips to bake her a cake celebrating her transition on the same day that the Supreme Court decided to hear Phillip's case. He refused to custom design and bake it, and claims his refusal lies within the general rights of bakers to also refuse to bake cakes with anti-gay or anti-trangender messages that they disagree with. He will again be represented by the Alliance Defending Freedom. This time he's also suing the commission for $100,000 for targeting him and punishing him for his religious beliefs. The optics of the government once again punishing a religious baker for his religious beliefs, and his recourse to the courts, may figure into the coming national dialogue in advance of the midterm elections. [PDF] His lawsuit. + Show Spoiler +In accordance to the bans and subjective moderation actions occurring the last time this case was mentioned in the thread, I will not be actively arguing the merits of this case in the thread. This is only intended to inform and prompt discussion from others
I already brought this up a few pages back.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/532255-us-politics-mega-thread?page=615#12297
+ Show Spoiler +Also, regarding your stated intent to "inform and prompt discussion," you totally failed to mention that it was a birthday cake.
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Canada11509 Posts
On August 18 2018 09:42 Plansix wrote:
Yeah, but the Bible is silent when it comes to birthday cakes and parties. And cakes in general. His is not partaking in a religious ceremony, it’s just a cake.
That is to miss the point just the same as if someone were to ask for a cake to celebrate a divorce, adultery, or polygamy, and then just say we'll it doesn't say anything about cakes and candles. That misses the point what is being signified--the anniversary part--and that this is a very deliberate move considering there are bakeries right across the street.
As to the thinking behind, danglar brought up some verses, and I think the same camp might start with Genesis as first principles (God made them male and female) and then argue that the Bible remains consistent with this idea throughout, including Christ who uses the same Genesis passage in the same way when questioned on divorce.
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On August 18 2018 15:11 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2018 09:42 Plansix wrote:
Yeah, but the Bible is silent when it comes to birthday cakes and parties. And cakes in general. His is not partaking in a religious ceremony, it’s just a cake. That is to miss the point just the same as if someone were to ask for a cake to celebrate a divorce, adultery, or polygamy, and then just say we'll it doesn't say anything about cakes and candles. That misses the point what is being signified--the anniversary part--and that this is a very deliberate move considering there are bakeries right across the street. As to the thinking behind, danglar brought up some verses, and I think the same camp might start with Genesis as first principles (God made them male and female) and then argue that the Bible remains consistent with this idea throughout, including Christ who uses the same Genesis passage in the same way when questioned on divorce.
I do wonder where religious folks draw the line on this matter, though. When is the point where religious beliefs cant be used as an excuse?
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On August 18 2018 17:08 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2018 15:11 Falling wrote:On August 18 2018 09:42 Plansix wrote:
Yeah, but the Bible is silent when it comes to birthday cakes and parties. And cakes in general. His is not partaking in a religious ceremony, it’s just a cake. That is to miss the point just the same as if someone were to ask for a cake to celebrate a divorce, adultery, or polygamy, and then just say we'll it doesn't say anything about cakes and candles. That misses the point what is being signified--the anniversary part--and that this is a very deliberate move considering there are bakeries right across the street. As to the thinking behind, danglar brought up some verses, and I think the same camp might start with Genesis as first principles (God made them male and female) and then argue that the Bible remains consistent with this idea throughout, including Christ who uses the same Genesis passage in the same way when questioned on divorce. I do wonder where religious folks draw the line on this matter, though. When is the point where religious beliefs cant be used as an excuse? Never.
That's the whole point. To them religion is a shield they can use to remain racists/bigots/misogynist/whatever when society itself has tried to move on.
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On August 18 2018 18:11 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2018 17:08 iamthedave wrote:On August 18 2018 15:11 Falling wrote:On August 18 2018 09:42 Plansix wrote:
Yeah, but the Bible is silent when it comes to birthday cakes and parties. And cakes in general. His is not partaking in a religious ceremony, it’s just a cake. That is to miss the point just the same as if someone were to ask for a cake to celebrate a divorce, adultery, or polygamy, and then just say we'll it doesn't say anything about cakes and candles. That misses the point what is being signified--the anniversary part--and that this is a very deliberate move considering there are bakeries right across the street. As to the thinking behind, danglar brought up some verses, and I think the same camp might start with Genesis as first principles (God made them male and female) and then argue that the Bible remains consistent with this idea throughout, including Christ who uses the same Genesis passage in the same way when questioned on divorce. I do wonder where religious folks draw the line on this matter, though. When is the point where religious beliefs cant be used as an excuse? Never. That's the whole point. To them religion is a shield they can use to remain racists/bigots/misogynist/whatever when society itself has tried to move on.
Personal beliefs are important, but equally important is how religion devides people into "us" and "them" in an effective way. We who believe the right thing, they who don't. We who do the right thing, they who don't.
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On August 18 2018 15:11 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2018 09:42 Plansix wrote:
Yeah, but the Bible is silent when it comes to birthday cakes and parties. And cakes in general. His is not partaking in a religious ceremony, it’s just a cake. That is to miss the point just the same as if someone were to ask for a cake to celebrate a divorce, adultery, or polygamy, and then just say we'll it doesn't say anything about cakes and candles. That misses the point what is being signified--the anniversary part--and that this is a very deliberate move considering there are bakeries right across the street. As to the thinking behind, danglar brought up some verses, and I think the same camp might start with Genesis as first principles (God made them male and female) and then argue that the Bible remains consistent with this idea throughout, including Christ who uses the same Genesis passage in the same way when questioned on divorce.
And The Bible also says that you are not allowed to defame or mistreat others, yet here we are. Except women fucking women or animals of course, then raise your pitchforks.
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On August 18 2018 18:43 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2018 15:11 Falling wrote:On August 18 2018 09:42 Plansix wrote:
Yeah, but the Bible is silent when it comes to birthday cakes and parties. And cakes in general. His is not partaking in a religious ceremony, it’s just a cake. That is to miss the point just the same as if someone were to ask for a cake to celebrate a divorce, adultery, or polygamy, and then just say we'll it doesn't say anything about cakes and candles. That misses the point what is being signified--the anniversary part--and that this is a very deliberate move considering there are bakeries right across the street. As to the thinking behind, danglar brought up some verses, and I think the same camp might start with Genesis as first principles (God made them male and female) and then argue that the Bible remains consistent with this idea throughout, including Christ who uses the same Genesis passage in the same way when questioned on divorce. And The Bible also says that you are not allowed to defame or mistreat others, yet here we are.
I don't think that counts for godless heretics, given the way so many of them behave towards the non-faithful.
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On August 18 2018 18:48 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2018 18:43 Godwrath wrote:On August 18 2018 15:11 Falling wrote:On August 18 2018 09:42 Plansix wrote:
Yeah, but the Bible is silent when it comes to birthday cakes and parties. And cakes in general. His is not partaking in a religious ceremony, it’s just a cake. That is to miss the point just the same as if someone were to ask for a cake to celebrate a divorce, adultery, or polygamy, and then just say we'll it doesn't say anything about cakes and candles. That misses the point what is being signified--the anniversary part--and that this is a very deliberate move considering there are bakeries right across the street. As to the thinking behind, danglar brought up some verses, and I think the same camp might start with Genesis as first principles (God made them male and female) and then argue that the Bible remains consistent with this idea throughout, including Christ who uses the same Genesis passage in the same way when questioned on divorce. And The Bible also says that you are not allowed to defame or mistreat others, yet here we are. I don't think that counts for godless heretics, given the way so many of them behave towards the non-faithful.
Actually, unlike Islam, it does. To justify the whole crusading thing they required to do some mental gymnastics like God was the one waging war, and they were only his tools or making penance.
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On August 18 2018 19:08 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2018 18:48 iamthedave wrote:On August 18 2018 18:43 Godwrath wrote:On August 18 2018 15:11 Falling wrote:On August 18 2018 09:42 Plansix wrote:
Yeah, but the Bible is silent when it comes to birthday cakes and parties. And cakes in general. His is not partaking in a religious ceremony, it’s just a cake. That is to miss the point just the same as if someone were to ask for a cake to celebrate a divorce, adultery, or polygamy, and then just say we'll it doesn't say anything about cakes and candles. That misses the point what is being signified--the anniversary part--and that this is a very deliberate move considering there are bakeries right across the street. As to the thinking behind, danglar brought up some verses, and I think the same camp might start with Genesis as first principles (God made them male and female) and then argue that the Bible remains consistent with this idea throughout, including Christ who uses the same Genesis passage in the same way when questioned on divorce. And The Bible also says that you are not allowed to defame or mistreat others, yet here we are. I don't think that counts for godless heretics, given the way so many of them behave towards the non-faithful. Actually, unlike Islam, it does. To justify the whole crusading thing they required to do some mental gymnastics like God was the one waging war, and they were only his tools or making penance.
That was kind of my point. The amount of hate spewed by Christians in America, either directly or indirectly, seems directly countermanded by the bible, yet they don't seem even slightly swayed by that inconvenient fact, and only hide behind the bible - and in this case the law - as a justification for doing evil. If only they used it as a reason for doing good I might give religion a second look.
Even the nice ones, who follow the teachings and do good works as Jesus says, seem to end up doing it at times.
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