US Politics Mega-thread - Page 622

On August 18 2018 03:33 Danglars wrote:

That’s lovely, but does it really excuse pointing to black racists living in ghettos after concluding its unusual that some % of blacks support Trump? Talk about power structures and culture wars and white insecurities all you want, but the only connection you draw to what I said is alleging racism is justified because all groups have some sort of racism and bigotry among them.

On August 18 2018 01:49 Mohdoo wrote:
I think people surprised by the idea of Trump being supported by an unusual % of blacks haven't had much experience living in very ghetto'ish areas with large black/hispanic populations. There is some serious racism in bad neighborhoods. Black vs Hispanic racism is really, really huge in some areas. When I was in Virginia, there was some weeeeeeird borderline militant levels of racism in my community. It goes both ways for sure. Black vs Hispanic vs White is just a really sad situation, but it is very prevalent in some areas.

On August 18 2018 03:44 Plansix wrote:

I never said racism was justified, only that it existed among all groups and cultures. White folks like myself just happen to be in power in this nation and have been for 2 centuries. We control the levers of power and the racists among us use those levers to oppress whatever minority group they don’t like.

On August 18 2018 04:04 Tachion wrote:

Is this all from the Rasmussen poll? The one that said 30 some percent of black voters supported him? Because their polls have always been leaned wildly in favor of Trump. Gallup/Reuters/Civiqs all put his approval rating among black voters down around the 9-13% range.

On August 18 2018 03:33 Danglars wrote:

That’s lovely, but does it really excuse pointing to black racists living in ghettos after concluding its unusual that some % of blacks support Trump? Talk about power structures and culture wars and white insecurities all you want, but the only connection you draw to what I said is alleging racism is justified because all groups have some sort of racism and bigotry among them.

On August 18 2018 04:04 Tachion wrote:

Is this all from the Rasmussen poll? The one that said 30 some percent of black voters supported him? Because their polls have always been leaned wildly in favor of Trump. Gallup/Reuters/Civiqs all put his approval rating among black voters down around the 9-13% range.

On August 18 2018 04:28 Mohdoo wrote:


Rasmussen is not accurate or credible, but the fundamental mechanism of blacks supporting Trump more than other republicans is likely still true.



I think if you lived in the neighborhood I did, it would be clear there is a distinct difference between those communities and other communities. Racial tensions are really, really, really insane in some areas. It makes stuff like Charlottesville look tame. A lot of neighborhoods have both races blaming their entire communities problems and taking violent approaches to solve it.

Lots of people think things like "If it wasn't for the _____, our community would be safe and crime would end" where the blank is hispanics/blacks depending on which of them you ask.

On August 18 2018 05:25 Danglars wrote:

I can observe and critique communities that are uncivil to their neighbors without making racially-charged cheap shots at their politics. I don’t like when Trump does it, and I don’t like when his opponents do it. The path back is not blaming racists blacks in ghettos for political trends you do not like.

On August 18 2018 05:28 Mohdoo wrote:


I wouldn't really say I dislike it and I am not so much blaming as adding context. A lot of people are super confused. I am adding context why that number actually makes sense. Other politics/issues be damned, there are a lot of people in gangs who would vote for anyone who said they'd deport Mexicans.

I'm not blaming anything and I'm not disliking anything. I am adding my personal experience because a lot of people think the idea of blacks supporting trump is insane. It *is* insane until you realize how much racial tension exists between blacks and mexicans. Many, many people do not realize how much racism exists between blacks and hispanics. Most people just focus on white racism.

On August 18 2018 06:33 Plansix wrote:
We quickly arrived at the predictable beat of classic counter argument to insights that racism is motivating factor for some voters. That being: to blame the person for perceiving racism at all and bringing up the topic. You will often see this when someone tells a racist joke that no one finds funny. They quickly turn to blaming their audience for “not having a sense of humor” or “being to sensitive”. It is the audience’s fault for not finding the joke funny, not the person who told it for poorly understanding their audience. And if they object to the subject matter, it is their fault for bringing race into it.

There are different versions of this counter argument: The race card. Making it about race. It is a subversive argument that shifts the burden of proof back on to the person objecting to what they perceive as racism. As if the person summoned the racism themselves by saying it three times into the mirror. That is never existed before they said the word. Or that is wasn’t a problem until they brought it up. And the sinister part about this counter argument is that it builds on itself, that people who discuss racism are the ones that “always make it about race.”

The goal is simple, to blunt any discussion of racism and any agreement on a course of action. If we are constantly debating on when the racism became a problem, or if it is a problem at all, nothing gets done. And it is effective even when someone is as overtly racist as Trump. Even if he dropped the N-bomb when talking about Obama, it wouldn’t matter. Because the argument always is that racism is never a problem until someone brings it to the table, and then it is their fault for making it about race.

Mohdoo was speaking from personal experience. Perception is reality. So if he perceived racism against Hispanics by blacks, then that should be taken in good faith. And if he fells that some of those blacks might have voted for Trump due to Trump's rhetoric about Hispanics and illegal immigrants, we should discuss why he feel that way. Rather than attempting to chide him for perceiving it in the first place.

On August 18 2018 06:12 Danglars wrote:

You've now read my critique on why I think your critique is grounded in racist sentiment towards black people, aka black support for President Trump is grounded by how many racist blacks are in the ghettos of America. I tend to think presidents in general get support during a growing economy, and particularly if they're seen as defenders of American industry and American jobs (whether or not it's undeniably true or disputed). I'm incredibly resistant to underlying subtext like minority support for this guy I dislike should be seen in light of my ideology that racists like Trump. We can do better in the Trump era than leap towards racism as the primary motivating factor in Trump support. You made the logical leap from increasing black support for Trump (or your perception of it) to widespread racism in black ghettos, as if you think the African American race as a race is under racist suspicion for thinking well of the current President.

The Christian baker whose refusal to make a wedding cake for a same-sex couple was upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court is suing Colorado after the state ruled that he had discriminated against another customer, this time a transgender woman.

In a lawsuit filed Tuesday, attorneys for the baker, Jack Phillips, who owns Masterpiece Cakeshop, claim that Colorado is on a "crusade to crush" him because of his religious beliefs.

“After Phillips defended himself all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court and won, he thought Colorado’s hostility toward his faith was over,” the lawsuit states. "He was wrong."

“Colorado has renewed its war against him by embarking on another attempt to prosecute him, in direct conflict with the Supreme Court’s ruling in his favor. This lawsuit is necessary to stop Colorado’s continuing persecution of Phillips,” the suit continues.

The Supreme Court sided with Phillips in June in a 7-2 decision, saying legal proceedings in Colorado had shown a hostility toward the baker’s religious views. However, the opinion was a narrow one, applying to the specific facts of that case only. The court did not rule on whether business owners can invoke religious objections to refuse service to LGBTQ people.

In a decision issued on June 28 — less than a month after the Supreme Court ruled in Phillips’ favor in Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission — the commission found probable cause that Phillips had discriminated against Autumn Scardina by refusing to make a cake celebrating, in her words, “the 7th year anniversary of my transition from male to female.”

On August 18 2018 07:32 Mohdoo wrote:


I should clarify I by no means think this is the reason for his entire popularity with blacks. I'm just saying that after living in a community where black and mexican gangs were extreme rivals and would basically kill each other on sight, racism is a huge issue in those areas. You end up in situations where a mexican dude can think "black dude killed my cousin and beat up my dad, i hate them all", with the exact same thing being true for a black person thinking the same about mexicans. It's just an incredibly sad reality where some communities are in such terrible shape that gangs play a major, major role in the culture. As these gangs continue to grow, they become more influential. As more people are killed by rival gangs, the racism grows even more intensely.

I can't be the only person on TL who has lived in any such community. This isn't really even up for debate. These dynamics 100000000000000% exist and are a really terrible thing. These situations are not why a middle class black family would like Trump. I'm just saying, as someone who has lived in those communities, there are also mexicans who would vote for a guy who said "I WILL DEPORT ALL BLACK PEOPLE". It's by no means a 1 way thing. These communities get worse and worse. It's very sad.

On August 18 2018 01:49 Mohdoo wrote:
I think people surprised by the idea of Trump being supported by an unusual % of blacks haven't had much experience living in very ghetto'ish areas with large black/hispanic populations. There is some serious racism in bad neighborhoods.

On August 18 2018 07:42 Acrofales wrote:
I don't think Danglars has a problem with the statement that there are black racists. I think he is pointing out that there is no evidence that the black people who voted for Trump and the black people who are racist are (mostly) the same group.

And while it's a fairly obvious link to make, it's still just conjecture. There are other reasons people might vote for Trump.

On August 18 2018 07:49 Excludos wrote:


If you vote for a known racist to represent you and your interests, doesn't that by itself make you a racist? You're voting on who best represents your own values after all

edit: Well, I guess the other option is being conned into voting for someone who doesn't represent you or your best interests at all. I suspect that happened with a large portion of the american voters, black or not.

On August 18 2018 07:39 Danglars wrote:

NBC News

The persecution against the Colorado baker resumes. You may remember the supreme court case resulting from Jack Phillips of Masterpiece Cakeshop appealing the Colorado Human Rights Commission's judgement that he illegally discriminated against sexual orientation. The Supreme Court determined 7-2 that the commission had not applied Colorado laws neutrally to the baker, violating his first amendment rights of religious expression in open hostility to his particular religious beliefs. Journalists at the time highlighted how narrow the ruling was on the grounds of religious animus. This case arises from a transgender lawyer who asked Phillips to bake her a cake celebrating her transition on the same day that the Supreme Court decided to hear Phillip's case. He refused to custom design and bake it, and claims his refusal lies within the general rights of bakers to also refuse to bake cakes with anti-gay or anti-trangender messages that they disagree with.

He will again be represented by the Alliance Defending Freedom. This time he's also suing the commission for $100,000 for targeting him and punishing him for his religious beliefs. The optics of the government once again punishing a religious baker for his religious beliefs, and his recourse to the courts, may figure into the coming national dialogue in advance of the midterm elections.[PDF] His lawsuit.

+ Show Spoiler +

On August 18 2018 07:49 Excludos wrote:


If you vote for a known racist to represent you and your interests, doesn't that by itself make you a racist? You're voting on who best represents your own values after all

edit: Well, I guess the other option is being conned into voting for someone who doesn't represent you or your best interests at all. I suspect that happened with a large portion of the american voters, black or not.

On August 18 2018 07:36 Plansix wrote:
The reality is that we are likely discussing a largely fictional voting demographic. Only about 8% of the black population voted for Trump. There is almost no difference between him and GW Bush. The number in "Ghettos" is a fraction of that. And within that smaller fraction, the number that hold overt animosity towards Hispanics is even a hand full of voters. Finding trends in that small, widely spread demographic is impossible.

On August 18 2018 07:44 Danglars wrote:


I don't want to assume what I know what you're thinking when you point to ghettos to explain unusual race-based Trump support. Can you explain what you meant by these opening sentences of this post? I read this to mean Trump support among blacks isn't surprising given the very large amount of racism among blacks in ghetto areas. What did you really mean instead of saying Trump support shouldn't be surprising given black racism in ghettos? Did you omit another explanation in favor of racism?