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On August 04 2018 04:35 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2018 04:29 Nebuchad wrote:On August 04 2018 04:19 Plansix wrote:
I think we all got it, but politely disagreed with his assessment. But its nice you found someone that agrees with you on this subject. I don't think he did though. P6 chronically doesn't understand IgnE but feels compelled to respond, and xDaunt consistently thinks IgnE is agreeing with him when he's actually making fun of him (and the people poking xDaunt). + Show Spoiler +(I don't think this spoils it for IgnE since this isn't the first time it's been pointed out and yet it keeps happening. I also personally enjoy it)
Honestly, IngE’s verbose writing style combined with his disdain for punctuation and capitalizing any letter are perfectly tuned to my dyslexia. I should just give up trying to read any of his posts that are longer than two sentences on my phone.
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On August 04 2018 04:49 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2018 04:35 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 04 2018 04:29 Nebuchad wrote:On August 04 2018 04:19 Plansix wrote:
I think we all got it, but politely disagreed with his assessment. But its nice you found someone that agrees with you on this subject. I don't think he did though. P6 chronically doesn't understand IgnE but feels compelled to respond, and xDaunt consistently thinks IgnE is agreeing with him when he's actually making fun of him (and the people poking xDaunt). + Show Spoiler +(I don't think this spoils it for IgnE since this isn't the first time it's been pointed out and yet it keeps happening. I also personally enjoy it) Honestly, IngE’s verbose writing style combined with his disdain for punctuation and capitalizing any letter are perfectly tuned to my dyslexia. I should just give up trying to read any of his posts that are longer than two sentences on my phone.
Igne's writing is a lot of things but verbose isn't one of them. He's remarkably concise and consistently tries to wrap up concepts or ideas with established writers/thinkers on the related topic. The issue is that people think they are a lot smarter than they are. IgnE is a refreshing reminder that the liberal authorities not only don't know what they are up against (in xDaunt and others on the right), they overestimate their own capabilities and comprehension of the subjects at hand.
You run into enough of the same liberal trash arguments you start to think so many people couldn't possibly be mindlessly repeating them if they weren't accurate or true. But the truth is they aren't accurate/true and people do mindlessly repeat them ad nauseam.
EDIT: It's a fair time to notice how when either xDaunt or the liberal faction argue with me they are usually at a bit of a loss of how to do it since their arguments are concentrated on each other rather than alternative perspectives. Which is why when they arise (from myself or elsewhere) they rely on dismissing them out of hand, and it's in their mutually beneficial interests to do so.
You'll also sometimes see them just try to apply the argument they use for each other on me (or someone else) and it falls completely flat because it doesn't apply.
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On August 04 2018 04:47 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2018 04:42 xDaunt wrote:On August 04 2018 04:35 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 04 2018 04:29 Nebuchad wrote:On August 04 2018 04:19 Plansix wrote:
I think we all got it, but politely disagreed with his assessment. But its nice you found someone that agrees with you on this subject. I don't think he did though. P6 chronically doesn't understand IgnE but feels compelled to respond, and xDaunt consistently thinks IgnE is agreeing with him when he's actually making fun of him (and the people poking xDaunt). + Show Spoiler +(I don't think this spoils it for IgnE since this isn't the first time it's been pointed out and yet it keeps happening.) That you think that I believe that Igne is agreeing with me substantively on this topic or anything else tells me that you don’t understand Igne’s posts at all. You have. It's a forum so people can see it's happened before. You're right though that more often you're aware he's disagreeing with you (but engaging your argument) and it's people like P6 that think you and Igne are in agreement which prompts them to post non sequiturs and other things that betray a complete lack of understanding of the post with which they are engaging. So probably not fair for me to say you consistently do it, but you do seem to miss (or just never remark on) how IgnE slams you harder than they ever do.
First of all, it's fairly seldom that IgnE actually "slams" me on anything. In fact, he very rarely engages me or my opinions directly, generally preferring to serve as the "xDaunt interpreter" for all of the hopelessly lost people in this thread that have difficulty fathoming how someone like me exists, and even more difficulty understanding half of what I say or why I might have a point. I wish he did engage my points more, because I'd much rather have a conversation with him than most anyone else around here.
Second, and to the extent that Igne does directly engage me or my opinions, you are correct in that he is far more effective at arguing with me than most anyone else around here. And there's no mystery as to why that is. He digests my arguments before responding, whereas most people simply respond with some horrifically misplaced dismissive attitude.
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On August 04 2018 04:49 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
I thought it was obvious that Igne was making fun of xdaunt, what with him basically typing that xdaunt is making shit up, but I guess obscurantism has its uses afterall. Igne is nowhere as clever as he thinks he is, if you just strip out the name dropping, what he writes is either plain gobbledygook, with maybe a single point.
i didnt say that he "basically makes shit up." at least not any more than any of us do. in fact i think he usually takes less for granted than most people in this thread, especially you.
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I think we are dangerously to shit talking each other rather than talking about politics. Its Friday, lets all move on to something more interesting that argument styles and how understands whom.
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On August 04 2018 05:06 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2018 04:47 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 04 2018 04:42 xDaunt wrote:On August 04 2018 04:35 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 04 2018 04:29 Nebuchad wrote:On August 04 2018 04:19 Plansix wrote:
I think we all got it, but politely disagreed with his assessment. But its nice you found someone that agrees with you on this subject. I don't think he did though. P6 chronically doesn't understand IgnE but feels compelled to respond, and xDaunt consistently thinks IgnE is agreeing with him when he's actually making fun of him (and the people poking xDaunt). + Show Spoiler +(I don't think this spoils it for IgnE since this isn't the first time it's been pointed out and yet it keeps happening.) That you think that I believe that Igne is agreeing with me substantively on this topic or anything else tells me that you don’t understand Igne’s posts at all. You have. It's a forum so people can see it's happened before. You're right though that more often you're aware he's disagreeing with you (but engaging your argument) and it's people like P6 that think you and Igne are in agreement which prompts them to post non sequiturs and other things that betray a complete lack of understanding of the post with which they are engaging. So probably not fair for me to say you consistently do it, but you do seem to miss (or just never remark on) how IgnE slams you harder than they ever do. First of all, it's fairly seldom that IgnE actually "slams" me on anything. In fact, he very rarely engages me or my opinions directly, generally preferring to serve as the "xDaunt interpreter" for all of the hopelessly lost people in this thread that have difficulty fathoming how someone like me exists, much less understanding half of what I say or why I might have a point. I wish he did engage my points more, because I'd much rather have a conversation with him than most anyone else around here. Second, and to the extent that Igne does directly engage me or my opinions, you are correct in that he is far more effective at arguing with me than most anyone else around here. And there's no mystery as to why that is. He digests my arguments before responding, whereas most people simply respond with some horrifically misplaced dismissive attitude.
Sooo I'm back to thinking you're missing the parts of Igne's posts that basically laughingly dismiss your position, but by way of substantive argument and obscure (for here at least) references.
I don't disagree with you that the thread liberals are typically terrible at reading and responding to your (or pretty much any post that disagrees with them) posts.
On August 04 2018 05:10 Plansix wrote:
I think we are dangerously to shit talking each other rather than talking about politics. Its Friday, lets all move on to something more interesting that argument styles and how understands whom.
xDaunt posted, yall did exactly that, and now turnabout is to be avoided. Funny how that works.
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Igne, been having trouble extracting the meaning of some of your statements due to differences in your speaking style. It'd be helpful if you could include alternate phrasings for some of your stuff to make it clearer what your point is. Or a reference to the particular style(s) you're using so I could look it up.
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On August 04 2018 05:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
Sooo I'm back to thinking you're missing the parts of Igne's posts that basically laughingly dismiss your position, but by way of substantive argument and obscure (for here at least) references.
You're imagining things.
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On August 04 2018 05:22 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2018 05:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
Sooo I'm back to thinking you're missing the parts of Igne's posts that basically laughingly dismiss your position, but by way of substantive argument and obscure (for here at least) references. You're imagining things.
Perhaps I'm turning into a conservative?
But seriously, it makes me feel worse about laughing knowing you're not in on it.
EDIT: I should add that I'm no IgnE whisperer either, his posts are hard for me to understand (usually takes some googling) too. About 30% of my laughing is at the image of IgnE I've created in my head of him (based on a physical description I realize I might have made up, but pretty sure I read and his posting style).
I also just assume he's ribbing me if he's quoted me even if I don't get it.
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On August 04 2018 05:25 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2018 05:22 xDaunt wrote:On August 04 2018 05:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
Sooo I'm back to thinking you're missing the parts of Igne's posts that basically laughingly dismiss your position, but by way of substantive argument and obscure (for here at least) references. You're imagining things. Perhaps I'm turning into a conservative? But seriously, it makes me feel worse about laughing knowing you're not in on it.
NEVERMIND, see below.
EDIT: I should add that I'm no IgnE whisperer either, his posts are hard for me to understand (usually takes some googling) too. About 30% of my laughing is at the image of IgnE I've created in my head of him (based on a physical description I realize I might have made up, but pretty sure I read and his posting style).
I also just assume he's ribbing me if he's quoted me even if I don't get it.
Okay, so you admit here that you don't fully understand Igne's posts, yet you're confident that he's always laughing at my points. It should be self-evident how foolish you're being.
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On August 04 2018 05:10 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2018 05:06 xDaunt wrote:On August 04 2018 04:47 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 04 2018 04:42 xDaunt wrote:On August 04 2018 04:35 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 04 2018 04:29 Nebuchad wrote:On August 04 2018 04:19 Plansix wrote:
I think we all got it, but politely disagreed with his assessment. But its nice you found someone that agrees with you on this subject. I don't think he did though. P6 chronically doesn't understand IgnE but feels compelled to respond, and xDaunt consistently thinks IgnE is agreeing with him when he's actually making fun of him (and the people poking xDaunt). + Show Spoiler +(I don't think this spoils it for IgnE since this isn't the first time it's been pointed out and yet it keeps happening.) That you think that I believe that Igne is agreeing with me substantively on this topic or anything else tells me that you don’t understand Igne’s posts at all. You have. It's a forum so people can see it's happened before. You're right though that more often you're aware he's disagreeing with you (but engaging your argument) and it's people like P6 that think you and Igne are in agreement which prompts them to post non sequiturs and other things that betray a complete lack of understanding of the post with which they are engaging. So probably not fair for me to say you consistently do it, but you do seem to miss (or just never remark on) how IgnE slams you harder than they ever do. First of all, it's fairly seldom that IgnE actually "slams" me on anything. In fact, he very rarely engages me or my opinions directly, generally preferring to serve as the "xDaunt interpreter" for all of the hopelessly lost people in this thread that have difficulty fathoming how someone like me exists, much less understanding half of what I say or why I might have a point. I wish he did engage my points more, because I'd much rather have a conversation with him than most anyone else around here. Second, and to the extent that Igne does directly engage me or my opinions, you are correct in that he is far more effective at arguing with me than most anyone else around here. And there's no mystery as to why that is. He digests my arguments before responding, whereas most people simply respond with some horrifically misplaced dismissive attitude. Sooo I'm back to thinking you're missing the parts of Igne's posts that basically laughingly dismiss your position, but by way of substantive argument and obscure (for here at least) references. I don't disagree with you that the thread liberals are typically terrible at reading and responding to your (or pretty much any post that disagrees with them) posts.
i dont laughingly dismiss his position. i take it very seriously.
i am not opposed to all criticism of trump's rhetoric. i am on record at multiple points saying trump is a dangerous idiot. i just think that the standard line of:
"trump is a dangerous fascist out of touch with reality. every day he says something even more alarming than before. 'alternative facts' are just crazy deranged talk. we need to return to an agreed framework where certain things are assumed"
is just a totally obtuse, unreflective response that refuses to really reckon with the real break in dominant discourse. its not that simple. anyone, for example, who takes chomsky's ideas in Manufacturing Consent seriously cannot in good faith make such an unqualified argument.
i do think that demands for civility can be oppressive in certain situations. but i also think that civility and charity are necessary in order to have a conversation. i think there is an ethical demand to be open to conversation on some level in a democracy. conversation demands thoughtfulness. i am optimistic about rhetoric, broadly conceived, and really believe in the possibility of change, which in its most basic form is changing your mind. how to go about that is an open question, but some things seem clearly counterproductive.
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mostly i think trump should be completely cut off from any power. hes an imbecilic child. BUT theres something hes tapped into that cannot be as easily dismissed as trump himself, the blathering idiot
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Have you determined that Trump is not a fascist and if you have, what led you to that conclusion?
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Ron Elving at NPR put it best:
The voters want to punch Washington for any number of reasons, some they can’t even articulate. Trump is the fist they decided on. If they regret their decision or not is yet to be seen.
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On August 04 2018 05:35 Nebuchad wrote:
Have you determined that Trump is not a fascist and if you have, what led you to that conclusion?
i suppose it depends on what you think is at stake in the yea or nay
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On August 04 2018 05:31 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2018 05:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 04 2018 05:06 xDaunt wrote:On August 04 2018 04:47 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 04 2018 04:42 xDaunt wrote:On August 04 2018 04:35 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 04 2018 04:29 Nebuchad wrote:On August 04 2018 04:19 Plansix wrote:
I think we all got it, but politely disagreed with his assessment. But its nice you found someone that agrees with you on this subject. I don't think he did though. P6 chronically doesn't understand IgnE but feels compelled to respond, and xDaunt consistently thinks IgnE is agreeing with him when he's actually making fun of him (and the people poking xDaunt). + Show Spoiler +(I don't think this spoils it for IgnE since this isn't the first time it's been pointed out and yet it keeps happening.) That you think that I believe that Igne is agreeing with me substantively on this topic or anything else tells me that you don’t understand Igne’s posts at all. You have. It's a forum so people can see it's happened before. You're right though that more often you're aware he's disagreeing with you (but engaging your argument) and it's people like P6 that think you and Igne are in agreement which prompts them to post non sequiturs and other things that betray a complete lack of understanding of the post with which they are engaging. So probably not fair for me to say you consistently do it, but you do seem to miss (or just never remark on) how IgnE slams you harder than they ever do. First of all, it's fairly seldom that IgnE actually "slams" me on anything. In fact, he very rarely engages me or my opinions directly, generally preferring to serve as the "xDaunt interpreter" for all of the hopelessly lost people in this thread that have difficulty fathoming how someone like me exists, much less understanding half of what I say or why I might have a point. I wish he did engage my points more, because I'd much rather have a conversation with him than most anyone else around here. Second, and to the extent that Igne does directly engage me or my opinions, you are correct in that he is far more effective at arguing with me than most anyone else around here. And there's no mystery as to why that is. He digests my arguments before responding, whereas most people simply respond with some horrifically misplaced dismissive attitude. Sooo I'm back to thinking you're missing the parts of Igne's posts that basically laughingly dismiss your position, but by way of substantive argument and obscure (for here at least) references. I don't disagree with you that the thread liberals are typically terrible at reading and responding to your (or pretty much any post that disagrees with them) posts. i dont laughingly dismiss his position. i take it very seriously. i am not opposed to all criticism of trump's rhetoric. i am on record at multiple points saying trump is a dangerous idiot. i just think that the standard line of: "trump is a dangerous fascist out of touch with reality. every day he says something even more alarming than before. 'alternative facts' are just crazy deranged talk. we need to return to an agreed framework where certain things are assumed" is just a totally obtuse, unreflective response that refuses to really reckon with the real break in dominant discourse. its not that simple. anyone, for example, who takes chomsky's ideas in Manufacturing Consent seriously cannot in good faith make such an unqualified argument. i do think that demands for civility can be oppressive in certain situations. but i also think that civility and charity are necessary in order to have a conversation. i think there is an ethical demand to be open to conversation on some level in a democracy. conversation demands thoughtfulness. i am optimistic about rhetoric, broadly conceived, and really believe in the possibility of change, which in its most basic form is changing your mind. how to go about that is an open question, but some things seem clearly counterproductive.
...dammit...
I knew as soon as I wrote that "laughably" you were going to do that. That's what I get for trying to score rhetorical points.
Also got the feeling I was to your left (or more radical I guess) regarding civility and the influence of race on policy, so I think this confirms that. I think we've both tried to get at the issue you highlight from a lot of angles, doesn't seem any of it is making much headway. Though I think I've made some progress despite the protestations and the proof is in the pudding. Of course it could be merely correlation without any causational relationship to be found.
I'm unsure a conversation is still possible though. Looks to me to be more of a situation of people marshaling their forces and preparing to do battle. With one faction (the people) woefully unprepared for their opponents.
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On August 04 2018 05:38 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2018 05:35 Nebuchad wrote:
Have you determined that Trump is not a fascist and if you have, what led you to that conclusion? i suppose it depends on what you think is at stake in the yea or nay
The part of the created quote that matters is the "we need to return to an agreed framework where certain things are assumed", the rest isn't really inconsistent with Chomsky. Yet we've switched from idiot to fascist between your thought and the quote and I was wondering if there was a significance.
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To me, I see this as another round of liberals taking issue with "tone". Our consolidated MSM is absolutely awful and lies through its teeth, though "enemy of the people" is certainly hyperbolic. I guess it depends on what comes after ("therefore ____").
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U.S. deports Mexican wife of American Marine veteran
ORLANDO, Florida (Reuters) - The U.S. government deported a Mexican woman on Friday who had lived in the country illegally for nearly two decades despite efforts by lawmakers to keep her in Florida with her husband, a Marine Corps veteran, and her two American children.
Alejandra Juarez, 38, was joined by her family and her congressman, Darren Soto, at Orlando International Airport for tearful farewells before her flight back to Mexico.
Juarez sought to illegally enter the United States in 1998 and was ordered to be removed, precluding her future chances at getting a visa or becoming a citizen, according to Soto and media interviews Juarez has given.
She illegally re-entered the country in 2000, the same year she married Temo Juarez, a Mexico native who went on to serve in the war in Iraq with the U.S. Marines and is now a naturalized U.S. citizen.
After being discovered in the country during a 2013 traffic stop, she had been required to check in every six months with U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) officials.
Her lawyers said to reporters she was only now being deported because of U.S. Donald Trump’s “zero tolerance” policy on illegal immigration.
ICE, which did not respond to questions on Friday, has said that Juarez’s re-entry after her removal is considered a felony.
“Mr President, you deporting me is not going to hurt just me; you’re making a veteran suffer,” Alejandra Juarez said at the airport. “You always say you love veterans. If you really love veterans, why didn’t you pardon me?”
Her husband has told reporters that he voted for Trump in the 2016 election.
rump’s Democratic predecessor, Barack Obama, was criticized by immigrant groups for deporting scores of non-citizen U.S. military veterans and for deporting immigrants whose only crime was re-entering the country after an earlier removal order.
Under new guidelines issued by the Obama administration in 2014, however, Juarez was considered a low priority for removal, her lawyers said.
Trump, a Republican, broadened ICE’s focus within days of taking office in 2017, saying no immigrants should be considered exempt from law enforcement.
Soto, a Democratic congressman, has sponsored a so-called private bill that would grant Juarez a visa if passed, a last-ditch, frequently unsuccessful recourse for immigrants who have exhausted other avenues.
Juarez has said her youngest daughter, who is nine years old, will come to live with her in Mexico because her husband frequently travels for his work running a flooring business.
source: www.reuters.com
man that's just sad... imagine being that husband having to try and explain that to your children
that's like the ultimate "nono, he's obviously only going to go after the other people comming in here. Not us"
User was warned for this post.
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On August 04 2018 05:57 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +U.S. deports Mexican wife of American Marine veteran
ORLANDO, Florida (Reuters) - The U.S. government deported a Mexican woman on Friday who had lived in the country illegally for nearly two decades despite efforts by lawmakers to keep her in Florida with her husband, a Marine Corps veteran, and her two American children.
Alejandra Juarez, 38, was joined by her family and her congressman, Darren Soto, at Orlando International Airport for tearful farewells before her flight back to Mexico.
Juarez sought to illegally enter the United States in 1998 and was ordered to be removed, precluding her future chances at getting a visa or becoming a citizen, according to Soto and media interviews Juarez has given.
She illegally re-entered the country in 2000, the same year she married Temo Juarez, a Mexico native who went on to serve in the war in Iraq with the U.S. Marines and is now a naturalized U.S. citizen.
After being discovered in the country during a 2013 traffic stop, she had been required to check in every six months with U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) officials.
Her lawyers said to reporters she was only now being deported because of U.S. Donald Trump’s “zero tolerance” policy on illegal immigration.
ICE, which did not respond to questions on Friday, has said that Juarez’s re-entry after her removal is considered a felony.
“Mr President, you deporting me is not going to hurt just me; you’re making a veteran suffer,” Alejandra Juarez said at the airport. “You always say you love veterans. If you really love veterans, why didn’t you pardon me?”
Her husband has told reporters that he voted for Trump in the 2016 election.
rump’s Democratic predecessor, Barack Obama, was criticized by immigrant groups for deporting scores of non-citizen U.S. military veterans and for deporting immigrants whose only crime was re-entering the country after an earlier removal order.
Under new guidelines issued by the Obama administration in 2014, however, Juarez was considered a low priority for removal, her lawyers said.
Trump, a Republican, broadened ICE’s focus within days of taking office in 2017, saying no immigrants should be considered exempt from law enforcement.
Soto, a Democratic congressman, has sponsored a so-called private bill that would grant Juarez a visa if passed, a last-ditch, frequently unsuccessful recourse for immigrants who have exhausted other avenues.
Juarez has said her youngest daughter, who is nine years old, will come to live with her in Mexico because her husband frequently travels for his work running a flooring business. source: www.reuters.comman that's just sad... imagine being that husband having to try and explain that to your children that's like the ultimate "nono, he's obviously only going to go after the other people comming in here. Not us"
Not sure if he told reporters he voted for Trump as some sort of self-punishment or because he knows that's the best plan to keep his wife in the country (appealing to Trump's vanity/ego). Also had to make sure this wasn't the most vindictive breakup possible.
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