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On January 28 2026 02:18 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2026 01:58 Jankisa wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I'm wondering, and genuinely curious, how were you guys feeling about Obama's deportations?
For me, as an outsider, I was both pretty young and not as interested in politics back then so this deporter in chief is something that I begun to see in the 2024 campaign and discussions on immigration policies and I was surprised, then, as I educated myself a bit on this I started realizing how weird US immigration system is, with different tiers and statuses and everything got even more confusing, like many other things in the USA, it's a unique and weird system.
In every other country, and I hope people will correct me if I'm wrong, it's impossible to be employed as an illegal immigrant, Croatia, as an example has huge fines for businesses who don't register their workers properly and hiring people who don't have work visas is, to my knowledge unheard of. I believe this is the case in most, if not all EU countries.
Since that is the case, for me, having a well organized, not cruel or aggressive but still firm policy that people who didn't go through the proper process of immigration should be removed form the country, with, of course, ability to, if jumped through proper hoops and with good enough reasons to appeal their case and stay.
From outside looking in, the system in the USA, set up as it is, is there because it helps Republicans, they have people they can scare monger about, they don't go after businesses who hire them and they can terrorize blue cities. With that being said, isn't it in everyone's interest to make sure that there is as low number as imaginable of actual unregistered immigrants? Going to recommend "This Nonviolent Stuff’ll Get You Killed" by Charles E. Cobb again, but there's a remarkable amount of overlap with the US navigating attempting to end chattel slavery so there's plenty of good stuff out there. I'd also recommend "Black Reconstruction in America" by W. E. B. Du Bois for a better understanding of how we got here. To grossly oversimplify, the US wants/needs the inexpensive labor, but can't afford to/fears giving them rights/citizenship Joe Biden had a pretty notable 2020 campaign moment that showed how Democrats also use Republicans to rationalize their own role in oppressing immigrants. Show nested quote +I was shocked to hear the 2020 Democratic front-runner tell me to my face to vote for Trump, simply because I pressed him on a question about basic dignity for immigrants https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/biden-south-carolina-immigration/
I'm sorry to say, I might be a shallow person but the reading time I do have in my life I decide to dedicate to Sci-Fi , fantasy and history books, going deep into political science I keep for podcasts and youtube essays, and I do believe I'm generally woke pilled enough (and I did try to cover this part in my original post) on how deep down these policies are rooted in the American capitalism and Republican party specifically, but I guess it's pretty obvious that since the two party system kept and allowed this system to get to this state it's by design, by both parties and they are both to blame. In what percentage is not something I'm interested in discussing.
Regarding the news article you posted, it says "not one more deportation" on the sign of the guy talking to Biden, GH, are you really for that?
If unregistered folks turn out to be actual gang members, you are still in support of keeping them in the country?
To me, that seems as extreme as position as "mass deportations" one, if you love your country and want what's best for it, wouldn't expelling violent criminals and not wasting money to incarcerate them (even tho there we can also discuss how USA prison system is also something of a legacy of the slavery) and try to rehabilitate them be preferable?
I mean, as I said, I am not a right winger, my country has no history of slavery or insane immigration policies, but if any person from Albania or Greece or Bulgaria or Turkey or Syria committed a crime I'd vastly prefer that they are deported, in some cases I understand that can't be done, but I don't think that wanting this makes me a bad person.
That's why I think that this right wing populism takes such a strong root, it's rooted in a logic that is iron clad, we live here, we don't want criminals from other countries coming here, and we definitely don't want to pay to have them in our prisons when we can send them back to their countries.
Obviously, refugees are and should always be welcome, but they should also register and have a legal status.
It all got insanely bastardized in the US, and they are trying to export this shit to Europe, but overall, wanting a normal immigration policy is not evil, and wanting people who break laws and refuse to follow the immigration process and laws is not unreasonable.
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On January 27 2026 23:27 Jankisa wrote:
Rand Paul, and Libertarians in general are the least principled and most spineless people in the world.
The party of "small government" is OK with the government thugs in masks taking people away without proper warrants, Rand Paul waited for them to execute a man and try to use an excuse of "he had a gun" in order to say anything about this, and even then he didn't really muster more then a little 2nd amendment squeak.
Ayn Rand is the most important novelist of the 20th century in the same way that Mein Kampf is one of the most important books, but I do understand that to someone of the intellectual depth of Jimmy here her drivel might be the most important things he ever read, assuming he read a book in his life, which, given his overall personality is very unlikely.
I think Hitler was a better writer than Rand, though, and that’s saying a lot because he wrote like a 14 years old edgelord who doesn’t even understand the conspiracy theories he parrots.
Rand books are to litterature what her work is to philosophy. It’s so fucking dog shit i was laughing out loud going through it.
But yes, it’s fantastic that those people who are so dogmatic their theories can be summarized in exactly four simple sentences (government bad, greed good, capitalism good, collectivism bad) with exactly zero nuance and an uncanny ability to bend reality to make it fit to their beliefs are also ready to actually forget all about it the moment it’s about getting the most right wing dude possible to power.
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On January 28 2026 04:11 Jankisa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2026 02:18 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 28 2026 01:58 Jankisa wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I'm wondering, and genuinely curious, how were you guys feeling about Obama's deportations?
For me, as an outsider, I was both pretty young and not as interested in politics back then so this deporter in chief is something that I begun to see in the 2024 campaign and discussions on immigration policies and I was surprised, then, as I educated myself a bit on this I started realizing how weird US immigration system is, with different tiers and statuses and everything got even more confusing, like many other things in the USA, it's a unique and weird system.
In every other country, and I hope people will correct me if I'm wrong, it's impossible to be employed as an illegal immigrant, Croatia, as an example has huge fines for businesses who don't register their workers properly and hiring people who don't have work visas is, to my knowledge unheard of. I believe this is the case in most, if not all EU countries.
Since that is the case, for me, having a well organized, not cruel or aggressive but still firm policy that people who didn't go through the proper process of immigration should be removed form the country, with, of course, ability to, if jumped through proper hoops and with good enough reasons to appeal their case and stay.
From outside looking in, the system in the USA, set up as it is, is there because it helps Republicans, they have people they can scare monger about, they don't go after businesses who hire them and they can terrorize blue cities. With that being said, isn't it in everyone's interest to make sure that there is as low number as imaginable of actual unregistered immigrants? Going to recommend "This Nonviolent Stuff’ll Get You Killed" by Charles E. Cobb again, but there's a remarkable amount of overlap with the US navigating attempting to end chattel slavery so there's plenty of good stuff out there. I'd also recommend "Black Reconstruction in America" by W. E. B. Du Bois for a better understanding of how we got here. To grossly oversimplify, the US wants/needs the inexpensive labor, but can't afford to/fears giving them rights/citizenship Joe Biden had a pretty notable 2020 campaign moment that showed how Democrats also use Republicans to rationalize their own role in oppressing immigrants. I was shocked to hear the 2020 Democratic front-runner tell me to my face to vote for Trump, simply because I pressed him on a question about basic dignity for immigrants https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/biden-south-carolina-immigration/ I'm sorry to say, I might be a shallow person but the reading time I do have in my life I decide to dedicate to Sci-Fi , fantasy and history books, going deep into political science I keep for podcasts and youtube essays, and I do believe I'm generally woke pilled enough (and I did try to cover this part in my original post) on how deep down these policies are rooted in the American capitalism and Republican party specifically, but I guess it's pretty obvious that since the two party system kept and allowed this system to get to this state it's by design, by both parties and they are both to blame. In what percentage is not something I'm interested in discussing. Regarding the news article you posted, it says "not one more deportation" on the sign of the guy talking to Biden, GH, are you really for that? If unregistered folks turn out to be actual gang members, you are still in support of keeping them in the country? To me, that seems as extreme as position as "mass deportations" one, if you love your country and want what's best for it, wouldn't expelling violent criminals and not wasting money to incarcerate them (even tho there we can also discuss how USA prison system is also something of a legacy of the slavery) and try to rehabilitate them be preferable? I mean, as I said, I am not a right winger, my country has no history of slavery or insane immigration policies, but if any person from Albania or Greece or Bulgaria or Turkey or Syria committed a crime I'd vastly prefer that they are deported, in some cases I understand that can't be done, but I don't think that wanting this makes me a bad person. That's why I think that this right wing populism takes such a strong root, it's rooted in a logic that is iron clad, we live here, we don't want criminals from other countries coming here, and we definitely don't want to pay to have them in our prisons when we can send them back to their countries. Obviously, refugees are and should always be welcome, but they should also register and have a legal status. It all got insanely bastardized in the US, and they are trying to export this shit to Europe, but overall, wanting a normal immigration policy is not evil, and wanting people who break laws and refuse to follow the immigration process and laws is not unreasonable.
To be fair those are both pretty much history books. Also you guys just spent days/pages reading and responding to drivel from Sartres. Next time, instead, maybe read at least an AI summary (preferably not AI though, maybe a podcast or youtube video) on the books? Perhaps ask how they might apply to your questions? I promise there isn't a single sentence read at random in either of them that isn't a more valuable use of one's time than reading even the best post the Sartres around here can come up with.
When you do that, you'll realize that there's actually a lot of reasons why right wing populism is and always has been essentially the core identity of the US.
Out of the ~2.7 million people Obama deported, how many do you suspect were unemployed violent criminals?
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GH, I asked you a simple question, perhaps you can try to respond to it?
To re-iterate it:
Regarding the news article you posted, it says "not one more deportation" on the sign of the guy talking to Biden, GH, are you really for that?
If unregistered folks turn out to be actual gang members, you are still in support of keeping them in the country?
Regarding Obama's crackdown, it's my understanding that, if you exclude the act of crossing the border illegally, around 40 % had a record, either for felonies or misdemeanors.
I'm a firm believer, as a person who immigrated to a country that this country has every right to kick me out, no questions asked if I brake it's laws.
I would also never dream to try to go into a country illegally, but, here, I do acknowledge my privilege, I'm a white guy from a "safe" and Christian country with the ability to find a job very easily, so it's not like I really have to worry about countries not letting me in.
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Canada11404 Posts
Out of the ~2.7 million people Obama deported, how many do you suspect were unemployed violent criminals?
Probably a small percentage. And I'm still convinced Trump is going on and on about Hannibal Lector is because he mixed up asylum seekers with people from asylums. Dunno if any of the MAGA but actually not-MAGA Trump whisperers think different, but I pretty sure that's what it is.
But it doesn't really matter. Do you think unless they were unemployed violent criminals they ought not be deported? I think a country has the right to control the flow of immigration into its country, raising and lowering it as needed. And what clearly needed fixing was the asylum seeking process as the system got overwhelmed and Trump didn't want the process fixed so he could run on the issue.
A country has the right to control its borders, but its citizens have the right to protest without being gunned down for mildly inconveniencing immigration enforcement. And the right to travel without papers please, comrade, etc etc. How it is enforced matters just as much, hence less outcry under Obama and huge outcry under Trump who are arresting people going through the courts like they are supposed to do. Because it's far easier to find and punish lawful immigrants going through the process than illegal immigrants if Miller's quotas must be fulfilled.
Not to mention suppressing Minnesota to then try and extort the state government to turn over their voting records... to an administration that has demonstrated criminal intent to overthrow the will of the people (Cajoling Georgia's Raffensperger to 'find more votes')
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United States43533 Posts
On January 28 2026 05:54 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +Out of the ~2.7 million people Obama deported, how many do you suspect were unemployed violent criminals? Probably a small percentage. And I'm still convinced Trump is going on and on about Hannibal Lector is because he mixed up asylum seekers with people from asylums. Dunno if any of the MAGA but actually not-MAGA Trump whisperers think different, but I pretty sure that's what it is.
Like when the Japanese PM told Trump that America and Japan share a foundation of liberal values (meaning Jefferson, Locke, Rousseau etc.) and Trump went on a rant about California liberals.
I don’t understand how Trump apologists aren’t more embarrassed. I know I would be ashamed to be one.
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On January 28 2026 05:54 Falling wrote:
Probably a small percentage. And I'm still convinced Trump is going on and on about Hannibal Lector is because he mixed up asylum seekers with people from asylums. Dunno if any of the MAGA but actually not-MAGA Trump whisperers think different, but I pretty sure that's what it is.
That is an amazingly plausible theory!
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On January 28 2026 04:51 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2026 23:27 Jankisa wrote:
Rand Paul, and Libertarians in general are the least principled and most spineless people in the world.
The party of "small government" is OK with the government thugs in masks taking people away without proper warrants, Rand Paul waited for them to execute a man and try to use an excuse of "he had a gun" in order to say anything about this, and even then he didn't really muster more then a little 2nd amendment squeak.
Ayn Rand is the most important novelist of the 20th century in the same way that Mein Kampf is one of the most important books, but I do understand that to someone of the intellectual depth of Jimmy here her drivel might be the most important things he ever read, assuming he read a book in his life, which, given his overall personality is very unlikely. I think Hitler was a better writer than Rand, though, and that’s saying a lot because he wrote like a 14 years old edgelord who doesn’t even understand the conspiracy theories he parrots. Rand books are to litterature what her work is to philosophy. It’s so fucking dog shit i was laughing out loud going through it. But yes, it’s fantastic that those people who are so dogmatic their theories can be summarized in exactly four simple sentences (government bad, greed good, capitalism good, collectivism bad) with exactly zero nuance and an uncanny ability to bend reality to make it fit to their beliefs are also ready to actually forget all about it the moment it’s about getting the most right wing dude possible to power.
No. I'm actually trying to read Mein Kampf for the first time right now and it's pretty damn awful. It's an English translation, so may not be totally fair, but it's very poorly written. The logic fails in so many places. The analysis of what went wrong and where is so bad. The comparison to a 14 year old edgelord seems appropriate. I want to finish it so that it doesn't remain a nagging thought in my brain, but it's been an extremely slow slog and I'm still only about 1/3rd of the way through after weeks.
Meanwhile, Atlas Shrugged is actually interesting. It's totally unhinged at times, but also presents some interesting ideas. It turns successful businessmen into superheroes in extremely bizarre ways, but also explores ideas like the government creating so many rules that everyone is a lawbreaker and then they selectively enforce the law on their enemies... and the public accepts the verdict because the accused did indeed break the law.
It gets a lot wrong, but also is an interesting cautionary tale in a similar way to 1984.
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On January 28 2026 05:51 Jankisa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2026 05:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 28 2026 04:11 Jankisa wrote:On January 28 2026 02:18 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 28 2026 01:58 Jankisa wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I'm wondering, and genuinely curious, how were you guys feeling about Obama's deportations?
For me, as an outsider, I was both pretty young and not as interested in politics back then so this deporter in chief is something that I begun to see in the 2024 campaign and discussions on immigration policies and I was surprised, then, as I educated myself a bit on this I started realizing how weird US immigration system is, with different tiers and statuses and everything got even more confusing, like many other things in the USA, it's a unique and weird system.
In every other country, and I hope people will correct me if I'm wrong, it's impossible to be employed as an illegal immigrant, Croatia, as an example has huge fines for businesses who don't register their workers properly and hiring people who don't have work visas is, to my knowledge unheard of. I believe this is the case in most, if not all EU countries.
Since that is the case, for me, having a well organized, not cruel or aggressive but still firm policy that people who didn't go through the proper process of immigration should be removed form the country, with, of course, ability to, if jumped through proper hoops and with good enough reasons to appeal their case and stay.
From outside looking in, the system in the USA, set up as it is, is there because it helps Republicans, they have people they can scare monger about, they don't go after businesses who hire them and they can terrorize blue cities. With that being said, isn't it in everyone's interest to make sure that there is as low number as imaginable of actual unregistered immigrants? Going to recommend "This Nonviolent Stuff’ll Get You Killed" by Charles E. Cobb again, but there's a remarkable amount of overlap with the US navigating attempting to end chattel slavery so there's plenty of good stuff out there. I'd also recommend "Black Reconstruction in America" by W. E. B. Du Bois for a better understanding of how we got here. To grossly oversimplify, the US wants/needs the inexpensive labor, but can't afford to/fears giving them rights/citizenship Joe Biden had a pretty notable 2020 campaign moment that showed how Democrats also use Republicans to rationalize their own role in oppressing immigrants. I was shocked to hear the 2020 Democratic front-runner tell me to my face to vote for Trump, simply because I pressed him on a question about basic dignity for immigrants https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/biden-south-carolina-immigration/ I'm sorry to say, I might be a shallow person but the reading time I do have in my life I decide to dedicate to Sci-Fi , fantasy and history books, going deep into political science I keep for podcasts and youtube essays, and I do believe I'm generally woke pilled enough (and I did try to cover this part in my original post) on how deep down these policies are rooted in the American capitalism and Republican party specifically, but I guess it's pretty obvious that since the two party system kept and allowed this system to get to this state it's by design, by both parties and they are both to blame. In what percentage is not something I'm interested in discussing. Regarding the news article you posted, it says "not one more deportation" on the sign of the guy talking to Biden, GH, are you really for that? If unregistered folks turn out to be actual gang members, you are still in support of keeping them in the country? To me, that seems as extreme as position as "mass deportations" one, if you love your country and want what's best for it, wouldn't expelling violent criminals and not wasting money to incarcerate them (even tho there we can also discuss how USA prison system is also something of a legacy of the slavery) and try to rehabilitate them be preferable? I mean, as I said, I am not a right winger, my country has no history of slavery or insane immigration policies, but if any person from Albania or Greece or Bulgaria or Turkey or Syria committed a crime I'd vastly prefer that they are deported, in some cases I understand that can't be done, but I don't think that wanting this makes me a bad person. That's why I think that this right wing populism takes such a strong root, it's rooted in a logic that is iron clad, we live here, we don't want criminals from other countries coming here, and we definitely don't want to pay to have them in our prisons when we can send them back to their countries. Obviously, refugees are and should always be welcome, but they should also register and have a legal status. It all got insanely bastardized in the US, and they are trying to export this shit to Europe, but overall, wanting a normal immigration policy is not evil, and wanting people who break laws and refuse to follow the immigration process and laws is not unreasonable. To be fair those are both pretty much history books. Also you guys just spent days/pages reading and responding to drivel from Sartres. Next time, instead, maybe read at least an AI summary (preferably not AI though, maybe a podcast or youtube video) on the books? Perhaps ask how they might apply to your questions? I promise there isn't a single sentence read at random in either of them that isn't a more valuable use of one's time than reading even the best post the Sartres around here can come up with. When you do that, you'll realize that there's actually a lot of reasons why right wing populism is and always has been essentially the core identity of the US. Out of the ~2.7 million people Obama deported, how many do you suspect were unemployed violent criminals? GH, I asked you a simple question, perhaps you can try to respond to it? To re-iterate it: Show nested quote +Regarding the news article you posted, it says "not one more deportation" on the sign of the guy talking to Biden, GH, are you really for that?
If unregistered folks turn out to be actual gang members, you are still in support of keeping them in the country? Regarding Obama's crackdown, it's my understanding that, if you exclude the act of crossing the border illegally, around 40 % had a record, either for felonies or misdemeanors. I'm a firm believer, as a person who immigrated to a country that this country has every right to kick me out, no questions asked if I brake it's laws. I would also never dream to try to go into a country illegally, but, here, I do acknowledge my privilege, I'm a white guy from a "safe" and Christian country with the ability to find a job very easily, so it's not like I really have to worry about countries not letting me in.
It's maybe not that simple of a question, but ultimately, yeah, I am.
If you were more familiar with the history (highlighted in those books), you'd recognize how you're using the same sort of right wing populist rhetoric that accompanied the genocidal campaign against the tribes living here, opposed ending chattel slavery, supported Jim Crow, opposed civil rights, and so on.
Also, it seems you're unaware of things like HR3486 - Stop Illegal Entry Act where Republicans (and some Democrats) are explicitly trying to keep immigrants in US prisons (where they also make sure inmates can be forced to work for free and kept in cages), including those only guilty of coming to the country.
The bill establishes a mandatory minimum prison term of 5 years and allows a life sentence for an individual who (1) improperly enters, or attempts to improperly enter, the United States; and (2) is subsequently convicted of a felony.
The bill also increases from 2 years to 10 years the maximum term of imprisonment for an individual who had been denied entry into or removed from the United States and who later enters or attempts to enter without prior approval.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/119th-congress/house-bill/3486
I don't say that to belittle you, but because what seems reasonable/intuitive can be misleading when you look a little closer.
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My whole point is that there are other countries which deport people in humane way and have reasonable policies.
To me, saying that anyone who comes to the country, no matter how fucked up they are has the right to stay because history was fucked up to some completely unrelated people is not reasonable.
You can throw as many examples on how fucked up the USA system and politics are and have been, but holding this position is and would be unreasonable to basically anyone.
What makes me extra depressed is that because there is a noticeable enough number of people who take this extreme approach to social justice that the right is able to magnify their voices and try to present the whole left side of the political spectrum, from liberals who are only nominally left over people who are somewhere along the lines like me to the guy from your post who holds a sign "not a single deportation".
None of the politicians who brought forward positive change in American politics was a real leftist, but they still brought positive change, American is, yes, a place with a very unjust past and is filled with people with, let's say, unique beliefs, so the people who can bring a meaningful change to it have to moderate, it's what works.
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Trump saying Pretti shouldn’t have carried a gun. Waiting for the second amendment folks outrage over that clear attack to his constitutional rights.
Oh wait.
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On January 28 2026 07:23 Jankisa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2026 06:30 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 28 2026 05:51 Jankisa wrote:On January 28 2026 05:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 28 2026 04:11 Jankisa wrote:On January 28 2026 02:18 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 28 2026 01:58 Jankisa wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I'm wondering, and genuinely curious, how were you guys feeling about Obama's deportations?
For me, as an outsider, I was both pretty young and not as interested in politics back then so this deporter in chief is something that I begun to see in the 2024 campaign and discussions on immigration policies and I was surprised, then, as I educated myself a bit on this I started realizing how weird US immigration system is, with different tiers and statuses and everything got even more confusing, like many other things in the USA, it's a unique and weird system.
In every other country, and I hope people will correct me if I'm wrong, it's impossible to be employed as an illegal immigrant, Croatia, as an example has huge fines for businesses who don't register their workers properly and hiring people who don't have work visas is, to my knowledge unheard of. I believe this is the case in most, if not all EU countries.
Since that is the case, for me, having a well organized, not cruel or aggressive but still firm policy that people who didn't go through the proper process of immigration should be removed form the country, with, of course, ability to, if jumped through proper hoops and with good enough reasons to appeal their case and stay.
From outside looking in, the system in the USA, set up as it is, is there because it helps Republicans, they have people they can scare monger about, they don't go after businesses who hire them and they can terrorize blue cities. With that being said, isn't it in everyone's interest to make sure that there is as low number as imaginable of actual unregistered immigrants? Going to recommend "This Nonviolent Stuff’ll Get You Killed" by Charles E. Cobb again, but there's a remarkable amount of overlap with the US navigating attempting to end chattel slavery so there's plenty of good stuff out there. I'd also recommend "Black Reconstruction in America" by W. E. B. Du Bois for a better understanding of how we got here. To grossly oversimplify, the US wants/needs the inexpensive labor, but can't afford to/fears giving them rights/citizenship Joe Biden had a pretty notable 2020 campaign moment that showed how Democrats also use Republicans to rationalize their own role in oppressing immigrants. I was shocked to hear the 2020 Democratic front-runner tell me to my face to vote for Trump, simply because I pressed him on a question about basic dignity for immigrants https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/biden-south-carolina-immigration/ I'm sorry to say, I might be a shallow person but the reading time I do have in my life I decide to dedicate to Sci-Fi , fantasy and history books, going deep into political science I keep for podcasts and youtube essays, and I do believe I'm generally woke pilled enough (and I did try to cover this part in my original post) on how deep down these policies are rooted in the American capitalism and Republican party specifically, but I guess it's pretty obvious that since the two party system kept and allowed this system to get to this state it's by design, by both parties and they are both to blame. In what percentage is not something I'm interested in discussing. Regarding the news article you posted, it says "not one more deportation" on the sign of the guy talking to Biden, GH, are you really for that? If unregistered folks turn out to be actual gang members, you are still in support of keeping them in the country? To me, that seems as extreme as position as "mass deportations" one, if you love your country and want what's best for it, wouldn't expelling violent criminals and not wasting money to incarcerate them (even tho there we can also discuss how USA prison system is also something of a legacy of the slavery) and try to rehabilitate them be preferable? I mean, as I said, I am not a right winger, my country has no history of slavery or insane immigration policies, but if any person from Albania or Greece or Bulgaria or Turkey or Syria committed a crime I'd vastly prefer that they are deported, in some cases I understand that can't be done, but I don't think that wanting this makes me a bad person. That's why I think that this right wing populism takes such a strong root, it's rooted in a logic that is iron clad, we live here, we don't want criminals from other countries coming here, and we definitely don't want to pay to have them in our prisons when we can send them back to their countries. Obviously, refugees are and should always be welcome, but they should also register and have a legal status. It all got insanely bastardized in the US, and they are trying to export this shit to Europe, but overall, wanting a normal immigration policy is not evil, and wanting people who break laws and refuse to follow the immigration process and laws is not unreasonable. To be fair those are both pretty much history books. Also you guys just spent days/pages reading and responding to drivel from Sartres. Next time, instead, maybe read at least an AI summary (preferably not AI though, maybe a podcast or youtube video) on the books? Perhaps ask how they might apply to your questions? I promise there isn't a single sentence read at random in either of them that isn't a more valuable use of one's time than reading even the best post the Sartres around here can come up with. When you do that, you'll realize that there's actually a lot of reasons why right wing populism is and always has been essentially the core identity of the US. Out of the ~2.7 million people Obama deported, how many do you suspect were unemployed violent criminals? GH, I asked you a simple question, perhaps you can try to respond to it? To re-iterate it: Regarding the news article you posted, it says "not one more deportation" on the sign of the guy talking to Biden, GH, are you really for that?
If unregistered folks turn out to be actual gang members, you are still in support of keeping them in the country? Regarding Obama's crackdown, it's my understanding that, if you exclude the act of crossing the border illegally, around 40 % had a record, either for felonies or misdemeanors. I'm a firm believer, as a person who immigrated to a country that this country has every right to kick me out, no questions asked if I brake it's laws. I would also never dream to try to go into a country illegally, but, here, I do acknowledge my privilege, I'm a white guy from a "safe" and Christian country with the ability to find a job very easily, so it's not like I really have to worry about countries not letting me in. It's maybe not that simple of a question, but ultimately, yeah, I am. If you were more familiar with the history (highlighted in those books), you'd recognize how you're using the same sort of right wing populist rhetoric that accompanied the genocidal campaign against the tribes living here, opposed ending chattel slavery, supported Jim Crow, opposed civil rights, and so on. Also, it seems you're unaware of things like HR3486 - Stop Illegal Entry Act where Republicans (and some Democrats) are explicitly trying to keep immigrants in US prisons (where they also make sure inmates can be forced to work for free and kept in cages), including those only guilty of coming to the country. The bill establishes a mandatory minimum prison term of 5 years and allows a life sentence for an individual who (1) improperly enters, or attempts to improperly enter, the United States; and (2) is subsequently convicted of a felony.
The bill also increases from 2 years to 10 years the maximum term of imprisonment for an individual who had been denied entry into or removed from the United States and who later enters or attempts to enter without prior approval. https://www.congress.gov/bill/119th-congress/house-bill/3486I don't say that to belittle you, but because what seems reasonable/intuitive can be misleading when you look a little closer. My whole point is that there are other countries which deport people in humane way and have reasonable policies. To me, saying that anyone who comes to the country, no matter how fucked up they are has the right to stay because history was fucked up to some completely unrelated people is not reasonable. You can throw as many examples on how fucked up the USA system and politics are and have been, but holding this position is and would be unreasonable to basically anyone. What makes me extra depressed is that because there is a noticeable enough number of people who take this extreme approach to social justice that the right is able to magnify their voices and try to present the whole left side of the political spectrum, from liberals who are only nominally left over people who are somewhere along the lines like me to the guy from your post who holds a sign "not a single deportation". None of the politicians who brought forward positive change in American politics was a real leftist, but they still brought positive change, American is, yes, a place with a very unjust past and is filled with people with, let's say, unique beliefs, so the people who can bring a meaningful change to it have to moderate, it's what works.
I recognize your point. It's a rhetorical distraction, not unrecognizable in comparison to people that suggested slaves couldn't be freed and allowed to join the political process in the South because they may violently/democratically displace the sometimes outnumbered white supremacists in power. It's as you might say "rooted in a logic that is iron clad"
Abolitionists that want former slaves to have full rights (which would include the 2nd amendment) are the people you would say were "taking this extreme approach to social justice". Of course if you give guns and voting rights to people (you don't even want to recognize as people because it makes your crimes against them hard to rationalize) you systematically abused it's almost certain they will democratically displace you from power and some might even want violent forms of revenge (you have to recognize the influence/context the Haitian Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haitian_Revolution had on people in the US). That's a terribly condensed version (which you would find elaborated on in the texts) of part of why we're ~160 years on from the Civil War, slavery is still legal, and Black people are still fighting for voting rights (and gun rights for that matter. Anyone remember Minnesota resident Philando Castile? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Philando_Castile )
This: None of the politicians who brought forward positive change in American politics was a real leftist, but they still brought positive change, American is, yes, a place with a very unjust past and is filled with people with, let's say, unique beliefs, so the people who can bring a meaningful change to it have to moderate, it's what works. is just wrong. The politicians don't bring forward the positive change, for starters. There's multiple people around here that can address that specific point though, so I hope they do for multiple reasons.
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Canada11404 Posts
On January 28 2026 06:16 RenSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2026 04:51 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 27 2026 23:27 Jankisa wrote:
Rand Paul, and Libertarians in general are the least principled and most spineless people in the world.
The party of "small government" is OK with the government thugs in masks taking people away without proper warrants, Rand Paul waited for them to execute a man and try to use an excuse of "he had a gun" in order to say anything about this, and even then he didn't really muster more then a little 2nd amendment squeak.
Ayn Rand is the most important novelist of the 20th century in the same way that Mein Kampf is one of the most important books, but I do understand that to someone of the intellectual depth of Jimmy here her drivel might be the most important things he ever read, assuming he read a book in his life, which, given his overall personality is very unlikely. I think Hitler was a better writer than Rand, though, and that’s saying a lot because he wrote like a 14 years old edgelord who doesn’t even understand the conspiracy theories he parrots. Rand books are to litterature what her work is to philosophy. It’s so fucking dog shit i was laughing out loud going through it. But yes, it’s fantastic that those people who are so dogmatic their theories can be summarized in exactly four simple sentences (government bad, greed good, capitalism good, collectivism bad) with exactly zero nuance and an uncanny ability to bend reality to make it fit to their beliefs are also ready to actually forget all about it the moment it’s about getting the most right wing dude possible to power. No. I'm actually trying to read Mein Kampf for the first time right now and it's pretty damn awful. It's an English translation, so may not be totally fair, but it's very poorly written. The logic fails in so many places. The analysis of what went wrong and where is so bad. The comparison to a 14 year old edgelord seems appropriate. I want to finish it so that it doesn't remain a nagging thought in my brain, but it's been an extremely slow slog and I'm still only about 1/3rd of the way through after weeks. Meanwhile, Atlas Shrugged is actually interesting. It's totally unhinged at times, but also presents some interesting ideas. It turns successful businessmen into superheroes in extremely bizarre ways, but also explores ideas like the government creating so many rules that everyone is a lawbreaker and then they selectively enforce the law on their enemies... and the public accepts the verdict because the accused did indeed break the law. It gets a lot wrong, but also is an interesting cautionary tale in a similar way to 1984.
I dunno, they are both pretty awful for different reasons though Mein Kampf is more nefarious. Both are sort of interesting at the beginning- as long as it stuck to Hitler's auto-biography it was at least interesting to see what the man wrote about himself. But once that part ended all that was left was his Jewish conspiracies and I abandoned it about halfway through a few years ago. It at least satisfied my suspicion that two modern claims were false: a) that Nazism was actually socialist/marxist and b) that Nazism was Christian. (And learning the truth of these modern claims were my primary reasons for wanting to read it.)
Atlas Shrugged at least had an interesting premise: what would happen if all the competent people disappeared. And the mystery posed at the beginning "Who is John Galt?" is fantastic. The 'story' that follows never rises above this question and seems to me a poorly disguised essay slumming as a piece of fiction. I think what makes 1984 and Brave New World continually topical is that they have some true insight into the nature of things even if the particular world they imagine in their speculative fiction never arises. Whereas, Atlas Shrugged fails in its criticism that the 'fairness' ideology is something arising in America sufficient for people to self-sabatoge their own businesses. What Atlas Shrugged marks as the engine of America's destruction is insufficient for what it imagines. Now, after reading Gulag Archipelago, I can understand where Rand got some of her ideas from, but that only strengthens my initial critique of Atlas Shrugged (which I wrote a very long blog on a decade ago): Atlas Shrugged needed an ideology as strong as Marxism to power the actions of the book's antagonists.
Lacking that, her characters actions and motivations come up empty and there is no forceful critique of society. It's sound and fury, signifying nothing
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Speaking of libertarians, I kinda miss BlackJack. I'd be curious where he weighs in on the public assassinations and/or bootlicking.
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United States43533 Posts
On January 28 2026 10:27 Fleetfeet wrote:
Speaking of libertarians, I kinda miss BlackJack. I'd be curious where he weighs in on the public assassinations and/or bootlicking.
If you’re missing him too much I could post bad faith arguments and then refuse to respond if anyone takes the bait. It’ll be like he’s still with us.
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On January 28 2026 10:27 Fleetfeet wrote:
Speaking of libertarians, I kinda miss BlackJack. I'd be curious where he weighs in on the public assassinations and/or bootlicking.
so you're saying guns never hurt people?
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On January 28 2026 10:27 Fleetfeet wrote:
Speaking of libertarians, I kinda miss BlackJack. I'd be curious where he weighs in on the public assassinations and/or bootlicking.
Is he just on a personal hiatus or was he banned?
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On January 28 2026 10:27 Fleetfeet wrote:
Speaking of libertarians, I kinda miss BlackJack. I'd be curious where he weighs in on the public assassinations and/or bootlicking.
Democrats could've avoided all this if just Kamala Harris won the election by being transphobic
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Can anyone point me into a socio-philosofical literature that encompasses the nature of "power seeks more power"?
I am a leftist oriented, but not a socialist since I do believe in the power of enterpreuneship and meritocracy.
But I always find myself aghast when people defend - and even worship - bilionaires and a full on liberal economy.
How do those people (my thought) do not see that, at some point, those with enormous economincal power will capture political and military power. And that, at this very point, meritocracy (and democracy) ceases to exist at a grandscale?!
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On January 28 2026 11:15 Locutos wrote:
Can anyone point me into a socio-philosofical literature that encompasses the nature of "power seeks more power"?
I am a leftist oriented, but not a socialist since I do believe in the power of enterpreuneship and meritocracy.
But I always find myself aghast when people defend - and even worship - bilionaires and a full on liberal economy.
How do those people (my thought) do not see that, at some point, those with enormous economincal power will capture political and military power. And that, at this very point, meritocracy (and democracy) ceases to exist at a grandscale?!
You should probably start with Machiavelli then move on to Thomas Hobbes, Max Weber and Jean-Paul Sartre.
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EPT
