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On July 24 2018 21:33 Aquanim wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2018 21:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 24 2018 21:10 Aquanim wrote:On July 24 2018 20:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 24 2018 20:46 screamingpalm wrote:
Just my own perspective here, but maybe liberals should spend less time condescending about "tone" and more time weighing substance. Perhaps show some of that empathy they preach? If you're having issues with what is being said, or even how, that says more about you than anything else. Figure out why it's making you so uncomfortable. GH is doing far better than I could possibly do talking to liberals though, and my family is full of them, heh. I gave up that attempt long ago. :D As they've said, they're perfectly aware of the phenomena at play and think that they can simultaneously be fully aware of it and use it as a defense for inaction and defensiveness without any irony. I dunno whether to call this an overgeneralisation or a strawman, but you can take your pick. I prefer "pithy summation demonstrated in close proximity" but to each their own. So you're claiming screamingpalm's statement applies to liberals as an entire class?
You commented on my post, I presumed you were referring to the point I was connecting to his. If you want me to speak to his comment you're going to have to clarify what it is you're asking about his statement
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On July 24 2018 21:33 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2018 21:31 JimmiC wrote:On July 24 2018 14:47 Slydie wrote:On July 24 2018 13:03 JimmiC wrote:On July 24 2018 11:40 Liquid`Jinro wrote:This podcast episode from like yesterday:ish, was remarkably on topic with GH's recent posts (people overestimating relative progress, psychology of reactions to demographic shifts etc --- interestingly black people have a similar reaction to white people when it comes to the increase in people of hispanic descent). The most important idea for understanding American politics in 2018 https://art19.com/shows/the-ezra-klein-show/episodes/c7782f5a-92bf-4ab5-8640-215944d0568bI thought it was a good listen, though I'm far from an expert on the subject. EDIT: Also if everyone could tone it down a bit so I don't have to waste time writing warnings that'd be wonderful. I listened to that as well and read some articles on it. Was pretty interesting. The issue is GH isn't about people overestimating progress, his point is there is no progress, which I think is foolish and takes away from the actual issue. Where I live it is not about black vs white, but it is about aboriginals vs everybody who took the land. The have reserves and a fair bit of money from the government but due to many reasons it is not helping. I think there are a lot of parallels between how the Aboriginal Canadians are struggling here and how the African Americans are struggling in the Southern States. The government tacts are completely different but the results so far have been no different. I think some would even argue that it is worse for aboriginals. The opioid deaths alone are staggering. Not to mention the % in jail compared to the rest of the population. https://www.ryerson.ca/chair-indigenous-governance/research-projects/ongoing/first-nations-poverty-in-canada/https://globalnews.ca/news/3795083/reserves-poverty-line-census/http://www.cwp-csp.ca/2017/06/150-years-of-colonialism-and-poverty/ Even in Norway, there are similar problems with the Same people in the far north (you know, the ones who Inspired Christoff in Frozen.) There is local mismanagement, high unemployment, high teenage pregnancy, alcohol and drug abuse and so forth, and noone knows how to solve the situation. These people have also been horribly mistreated historically, and it is one of the scars of our history. Anyway, this is about the US. I am sure there must be plenty of sociologic studies comparing social climbing from different cultural and ethnic backgrounds. To which degree is the inequality about that getting out of a social ditch is difficult no matter who you are? I agree with you, I bring it up because the with how global the world is and how global this problem is I think it is worth looking at if there are any countries and groups that had this problem and improved on it. If the wheel does not need to be reinvented why do it. It also helps to understand that there are groups everywhere that have these issues, it is not just a blacks in America problem. What groups have improved? How have they done it? Was it government policy, regime change (and did that group make it better for all or just them)? What works? If nothing, what are some new ideas. Is "not global capitalism" on the table for "new ideas"
So they could remain poor and on top also be more isolated? Sounds like an awesome solution.
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On July 24 2018 21:36 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2018 21:33 Aquanim wrote:On July 24 2018 21:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 24 2018 21:10 Aquanim wrote:On July 24 2018 20:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 24 2018 20:46 screamingpalm wrote:
Just my own perspective here, but maybe liberals should spend less time condescending about "tone" and more time weighing substance. Perhaps show some of that empathy they preach? If you're having issues with what is being said, or even how, that says more about you than anything else. Figure out why it's making you so uncomfortable. GH is doing far better than I could possibly do talking to liberals though, and my family is full of them, heh. I gave up that attempt long ago. :D As they've said, they're perfectly aware of the phenomena at play and think that they can simultaneously be fully aware of it and use it as a defense for inaction and defensiveness without any irony. I dunno whether to call this an overgeneralisation or a strawman, but you can take your pick. I prefer "pithy summation demonstrated in close proximity" but to each their own. So you're claiming screamingpalm's statement applies to liberals as an entire class? You commented on my post, I presumed you were referring to the point I was connecting to his. If you want me to speak to his comment you're going to have to clarify what it is you're asking about his statement
Ok, let me rephrase. Are you claiming that all liberals as a class (which is what I presume "they" means in your post) are "perfectly aware of the phenomena at play and think that they can simultaneously be fully aware of it and use it as a defense for inaction and defensiveness without any irony"?
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On July 24 2018 21:37 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2018 21:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 24 2018 21:31 JimmiC wrote:On July 24 2018 14:47 Slydie wrote:On July 24 2018 13:03 JimmiC wrote:On July 24 2018 11:40 Liquid`Jinro wrote:This podcast episode from like yesterday:ish, was remarkably on topic with GH's recent posts (people overestimating relative progress, psychology of reactions to demographic shifts etc --- interestingly black people have a similar reaction to white people when it comes to the increase in people of hispanic descent). The most important idea for understanding American politics in 2018 https://art19.com/shows/the-ezra-klein-show/episodes/c7782f5a-92bf-4ab5-8640-215944d0568bI thought it was a good listen, though I'm far from an expert on the subject. EDIT: Also if everyone could tone it down a bit so I don't have to waste time writing warnings that'd be wonderful. I listened to that as well and read some articles on it. Was pretty interesting. The issue is GH isn't about people overestimating progress, his point is there is no progress, which I think is foolish and takes away from the actual issue. Where I live it is not about black vs white, but it is about aboriginals vs everybody who took the land. The have reserves and a fair bit of money from the government but due to many reasons it is not helping. I think there are a lot of parallels between how the Aboriginal Canadians are struggling here and how the African Americans are struggling in the Southern States. The government tacts are completely different but the results so far have been no different. I think some would even argue that it is worse for aboriginals. The opioid deaths alone are staggering. Not to mention the % in jail compared to the rest of the population. https://www.ryerson.ca/chair-indigenous-governance/research-projects/ongoing/first-nations-poverty-in-canada/https://globalnews.ca/news/3795083/reserves-poverty-line-census/http://www.cwp-csp.ca/2017/06/150-years-of-colonialism-and-poverty/ Even in Norway, there are similar problems with the Same people in the far north (you know, the ones who Inspired Christoff in Frozen.) There is local mismanagement, high unemployment, high teenage pregnancy, alcohol and drug abuse and so forth, and noone knows how to solve the situation. These people have also been horribly mistreated historically, and it is one of the scars of our history. Anyway, this is about the US. I am sure there must be plenty of sociologic studies comparing social climbing from different cultural and ethnic backgrounds. To which degree is the inequality about that getting out of a social ditch is difficult no matter who you are? I agree with you, I bring it up because the with how global the world is and how global this problem is I think it is worth looking at if there are any countries and groups that had this problem and improved on it. If the wheel does not need to be reinvented why do it. It also helps to understand that there are groups everywhere that have these issues, it is not just a blacks in America problem. What groups have improved? How have they done it? Was it government policy, regime change (and did that group make it better for all or just them)? What works? If nothing, what are some new ideas. Is "not global capitalism" on the table for "new ideas" So they could remain poor and on top also be more isolated? Sounds like an awesome solution.
I feel like we could find a balance between these two extremes somehow.
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On July 24 2018 21:37 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2018 21:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 24 2018 21:31 JimmiC wrote:On July 24 2018 14:47 Slydie wrote:On July 24 2018 13:03 JimmiC wrote:On July 24 2018 11:40 Liquid`Jinro wrote:This podcast episode from like yesterday:ish, was remarkably on topic with GH's recent posts (people overestimating relative progress, psychology of reactions to demographic shifts etc --- interestingly black people have a similar reaction to white people when it comes to the increase in people of hispanic descent). The most important idea for understanding American politics in 2018 https://art19.com/shows/the-ezra-klein-show/episodes/c7782f5a-92bf-4ab5-8640-215944d0568bI thought it was a good listen, though I'm far from an expert on the subject. EDIT: Also if everyone could tone it down a bit so I don't have to waste time writing warnings that'd be wonderful. I listened to that as well and read some articles on it. Was pretty interesting. The issue is GH isn't about people overestimating progress, his point is there is no progress, which I think is foolish and takes away from the actual issue. Where I live it is not about black vs white, but it is about aboriginals vs everybody who took the land. The have reserves and a fair bit of money from the government but due to many reasons it is not helping. I think there are a lot of parallels between how the Aboriginal Canadians are struggling here and how the African Americans are struggling in the Southern States. The government tacts are completely different but the results so far have been no different. I think some would even argue that it is worse for aboriginals. The opioid deaths alone are staggering. Not to mention the % in jail compared to the rest of the population. https://www.ryerson.ca/chair-indigenous-governance/research-projects/ongoing/first-nations-poverty-in-canada/https://globalnews.ca/news/3795083/reserves-poverty-line-census/http://www.cwp-csp.ca/2017/06/150-years-of-colonialism-and-poverty/ Even in Norway, there are similar problems with the Same people in the far north (you know, the ones who Inspired Christoff in Frozen.) There is local mismanagement, high unemployment, high teenage pregnancy, alcohol and drug abuse and so forth, and noone knows how to solve the situation. These people have also been horribly mistreated historically, and it is one of the scars of our history. Anyway, this is about the US. I am sure there must be plenty of sociologic studies comparing social climbing from different cultural and ethnic backgrounds. To which degree is the inequality about that getting out of a social ditch is difficult no matter who you are? I agree with you, I bring it up because the with how global the world is and how global this problem is I think it is worth looking at if there are any countries and groups that had this problem and improved on it. If the wheel does not need to be reinvented why do it. It also helps to understand that there are groups everywhere that have these issues, it is not just a blacks in America problem. What groups have improved? How have they done it? Was it government policy, regime change (and did that group make it better for all or just them)? What works? If nothing, what are some new ideas. Is "not global capitalism" on the table for "new ideas" So they could remain poor and on top also be more isolated? Sounds like an awesome solution.
So that's a no from Velr, confirming my earlier assertion
On July 24 2018 21:39 Aquanim wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2018 21:36 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 24 2018 21:33 Aquanim wrote:On July 24 2018 21:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 24 2018 21:10 Aquanim wrote:On July 24 2018 20:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 24 2018 20:46 screamingpalm wrote:
Just my own perspective here, but maybe liberals should spend less time condescending about "tone" and more time weighing substance. Perhaps show some of that empathy they preach? If you're having issues with what is being said, or even how, that says more about you than anything else. Figure out why it's making you so uncomfortable. GH is doing far better than I could possibly do talking to liberals though, and my family is full of them, heh. I gave up that attempt long ago. :D As they've said, they're perfectly aware of the phenomena at play and think that they can simultaneously be fully aware of it and use it as a defense for inaction and defensiveness without any irony. I dunno whether to call this an overgeneralisation or a strawman, but you can take your pick. I prefer "pithy summation demonstrated in close proximity" but to each their own. So you're claiming screamingpalm's statement applies to liberals as an entire class? You commented on my post, I presumed you were referring to the point I was connecting to his. If you want me to speak to his comment you're going to have to clarify what it is you're asking about his statement Ok, let me rephrase. Are you claiming that all liberals as a class (which is what I presume "they" means in your post) are "perfectly aware of the phenomena at play and think that they can simultaneously be fully aware of it and use it as a defense for inaction and defensiveness without any irony"?
That was directed at the people to which it applies. It's remarkably prevalent for self-identified liberals (US use) including some posters, but if you're asking if I think it can be applied to every person called "liberal" without consideration for particulars, then no.
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A proposal like "not global capitalism" is not a proposal at all and i actually don't see how capitalism is directly related to the demise/stagnation of these groups.
I don't think you would want to take away their modern clothes/technology from them to bring them back into the gold old days when they were a proud people? And with that reintroduce starvation, shitty medicine and other problems?
What do you actually suggest to help these peoples?
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On July 24 2018 21:59 Velr wrote:
A proposal like "not global capitalism" is not a proposal at all and i actually don't see how capitalism is directly related to the demise/stagnation of these groups.
I don't think you would want to take away their modern clothes/technology from them to bring them back into the gold old days when they were a proud people? And with that reintroduce starvation, shitty medicine and other problems?
People claim to be seeking "new ideas' or "ways to fix it" but categorically refuse to look outside of capitalism or recognize the clear connections between capitalism and the exploitation people like to describe as "improved living conditions".
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Onto another topic: Voter ID.
Why is Voter ID a no-go in the US, when it has been successfully applied in other democracies? For example, India has free voter ID with biometric details, and they are much poorer and more populous than the US.
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On July 24 2018 22:01 gobbledydook wrote:
Onto another topic: Voter ID.
Why is Voter ID a no-go in the US, when it has been successfully applied in other democracies? For example, India has free voter ID with biometric details, and they are much poorer and more populous than the US.
Because we don’t offer free ID or anything that countries like India have. The ID laws are created with the intent of reducing the number of voters. Most of the rules around voting in the US are designed to keep turn out low, not increase it. Our politicians don’t like it when everyone votes, because they have spent decades cultivating a group of reliable voters to go to the polls every election.
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That and one party in particular is losing members at an alarming rate. Hence the need to stave off the inevitable to stay in power longer.
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We also allow absentee voting, whereas India does not. Thus, ID requirements implicate different concerns when they potentially burden some groups more than others.
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On July 24 2018 22:05 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2018 21:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 24 2018 21:08 iamthedave wrote:On July 24 2018 21:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 24 2018 20:57 Gorsameth wrote:On July 24 2018 20:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 24 2018 20:46 screamingpalm wrote:
Just my own perspective here, but maybe liberals should spend less time condescending about "tone" and more time weighing substance. Perhaps show some of that empathy they preach? If you're having issues with what is being said, or even how, that says more about you than anything else. Figure out why it's making you so uncomfortable. GH is doing far better than I could possibly do talking to liberals though, and my family is full of them, heh. I gave up that attempt long ago. :D As they've said, they're perfectly aware of the phenomena at play and think that they can simultaneously be fully aware of it and use it as a defense for inaction and defensiveness without any irony. Just because people are aware of it and wanting to improve on it does not mean they are willing to give up healthcare, gay rights and a horde of other things for a minimally tiny chance of maybe one day getting something possible better. It's a long way to the Wiz carrying a strawman that poorly built, you sure you want to embark on this journey? (y/n) I think what you mean to say is that there are a lot of people that are mostly content with going back to fucking over the groups they agreed on earlier. Eventually, with enough lesser evilism and dreaming, we may get around to addressing the groups/issues we didn't have a conniption about and compare to the ending of all that is good and free in the world in a blind hysteria over some reality TV freak show. Do you believe Trump has had no lasting impact on the US? (y/n) Of course (he's had a lasting impact* edited for clarity), he's the president of the country. Sometimes I really wonder about you guys... On July 24 2018 21:10 JimmiC wrote:On July 24 2018 16:08 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 24 2018 14:02 JimmiC wrote:On July 24 2018 13:54 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 24 2018 13:03 JimmiC wrote:On July 24 2018 11:40 Liquid`Jinro wrote:This podcast episode from like yesterday:ish, was remarkably on topic with GH's recent posts (people overestimating relative progress, psychology of reactions to demographic shifts etc --- interestingly black people have a similar reaction to white people when it comes to the increase in people of hispanic descent). The most important idea for understanding American politics in 2018 https://art19.com/shows/the-ezra-klein-show/episodes/c7782f5a-92bf-4ab5-8640-215944d0568bI thought it was a good listen, though I'm far from an expert on the subject. EDIT: Also if everyone could tone it down a bit so I don't have to waste time writing warnings that'd be wonderful. I listened to that as well and read some articles on it. Was pretty interesting. The issue is GH isn't about people overestimating progress, his point is there is no progress, which I think is foolish and takes away from the actual issue. Where I live it is not about black vs white, but it is about aboriginals vs everybody who took the land. The have reserves and a fair bit of money from the government but due to many reasons it is not helping. I think there are a lot of parallels between how the Aboriginal Canadians are struggling here and how the African Americans are struggling in the Southern States. The government tacts are completely different but the results so far have been no different. I think some would even argue that it is worse for aboriginals. The opioid deaths alone are staggering. Not to mention the % in jail compared to the rest of the population. https://www.ryerson.ca/chair-indigenous-governance/research-projects/ongoing/first-nations-poverty-in-canada/https://globalnews.ca/news/3795083/reserves-poverty-line-census/http://www.cwp-csp.ca/2017/06/150-years-of-colonialism-and-poverty/ Aboriginal people in Canada are treated pretty terribly by the government. I'm not sure the tacts are "totally different" so much as Canada's treatment is more sterotypically moderately more humane than the sterotypically brutal nature of US policy/practices. But even that is largely misleading. Canada's treatment of aboriginal people has been plenty brutal in it's own right. You don't get to use my name and mischaracterize my argument after lobbing a completely unacceptable (except by TL standards) personal attack, and act like I'm the unreasonable one. Since you can't discuss things in a manner which doesn't shit up the thread with your poorly put together arguments and inability to understand what is being discussed, you need to at least keep my name and arguments out your posts Those in glass houses my friend. And like you I said without malice. And you are right historically, as ive brought up residential housing in the past. I believe seeker politely asked you and me to pm. So if you feel free to continue this discussion where you make up my lack of understanding and your facts, feel free. If Jinro nailed your point and I misinterpreted it, you could have saved a bunch of posts from a bunch of people and just stated it. I thought your point, and asked you, if you thought there was no measurable changes in comparisons to whites. People over estimating the change is a completely reasonable point. I was still waiting for those measurable improvements and you pointed to actors and Emmy's (besides the ones I pointed out were clearly critically flawed for the reasons I explained). Fortunately I think the whole thing was rather informative for those who were able to tell right away what I was saying before someone else explained it to them in a way that didn't upset them in a manner that blinded them from being able to see the point being made the whole time. I think I'm starting to understand IgnE's point about the benefit of people not understanding your argument even if arriving there from different circumstances. But now I find myself caught between letting you spout your argument unchallenged or confronting it by first establishing by what metrics "the tacts are completely different" and not merely degrees of difference. But also at a loss as the stuff I don't know is about Canada, not the US and this is the US politics thread in which you're arguing that Canada's approach is radically different than the US's. I'd really like to drop it but we just had the response which indicated that they saw you arguing that there are these problems in communities largely as a result of previous (and some current) policy but no idea what to do about it. But people know what to do about it. The people claiming not to know what to do just don't want to do it. Yes critically flawed. It is no better the 1960 I have seen the light, I had no idea that all black people in the government or places of power and authority that were not there in 1960 were the equivalent of "Jews who were Nazi's".\ A black middle class did not exist, now does. But you are right that is not measurable either. So on and so forth. I should have listened to others and realized a discussion with you is pointless because you are more interested in fighting and being "hardcore" then the truth. If you would just admit that there are some changes, or maybe Lenin and Stalin were not good guys, or so on the rest of your point would not be lost. But you go into hyperbole at some point, then die on that hill for 3-5 pages. Crazy. Honest question: Are you intentionally missing the point out of spite or something or do you still genuinely not even understand the premise that has been explained to you multiple times by different people already? On July 24 2018 21:10 Aquanim wrote:On July 24 2018 20:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 24 2018 20:46 screamingpalm wrote:
Just my own perspective here, but maybe liberals should spend less time condescending about "tone" and more time weighing substance. Perhaps show some of that empathy they preach? If you're having issues with what is being said, or even how, that says more about you than anything else. Figure out why it's making you so uncomfortable. GH is doing far better than I could possibly do talking to liberals though, and my family is full of them, heh. I gave up that attempt long ago. :D As they've said, they're perfectly aware of the phenomena at play and think that they can simultaneously be fully aware of it and use it as a defense for inaction and defensiveness without any irony. I dunno whether to call this an overgeneralisation or a strawman, but you can take your pick. I prefer "pithy summation demonstrated in close proximity" but to each their own. Unless you moved the goal posts I'm still trying to get through this from many pages back. Show nested quote +Answer me this if you would please. In what measurable ways has the gap between white and Black people closed since the 60's? I brought up a couple, and clarified that you in fact meant this. The easiest one was number of blacks in government. It used to be 100% white 0% black, now it is not. (I'm not re looking up these stats again). You could look at number of students in universities, and yes I did bring up Blacks in entertainment, which has changed dramatically and is very important in America. I'm not going to rehash everything. But this is what I am responding to. The social changes and changes in perception alone are huge and measurable. I was mostly agreeing with you up until you posted the above and then I wanted to check if you believed that statement or were using hyperbole. You stated that in fact you believe this statement, you asked me for reasons it was not true. I gave them, you called black politicians Nazi jews, and so on.
Yeah, what kind of Black people aren't thankful for such improvements as Ben Carson at HUD and surely women should also be quite proud of progress demonstrated by Nikki Haley and Betsy Devos.
Also did you guys even know that there is a BLACK entertainment channel!?!?
I know you're arguing sincerely and attempting to belittle my argument but it's such an embarrassing attempt it's really hard to ignore.
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On July 24 2018 22:01 gobbledydook wrote:
Onto another topic: Voter ID.
Why is Voter ID a no-go in the US, when it has been successfully applied in other democracies? For example, India has free voter ID with biometric details, and they are much poorer and more populous than the US.
what's the purpose served by voter ID?
i.e. there's a number of related issues, and I'm not sure which one(s) you're asking about.
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On July 24 2018 22:11 farvacola wrote:
We also allow absentee voting, whereas India does not. Thus, ID requirements implicate different concerns when they potentially burden some groups more than others.
Netherlands allows absentee voting and has voter ID requirements. Voter has to fill out a card that authorizes another person to vote on his behalf (fill out your ID card number and sign it, and fill out the ID card number and name of the person you authorize). For voting abroad you need to register with the consulate (or if you'll just be on holiday, you can do this through your municipality) to send your ballot by snail mail. Next elections there will be trials with voting abroad through the digital platform, but I don't know yet how that will work.
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On July 24 2018 22:05 JimmiC wrote:
I brought up a couple, and clarified that you in fact meant this. The easiest one was number of blacks in government. It used to be 100% white 0% black, now it is not. (I'm not re looking up these stats again).
This argument reminds me so much of the debate I had with my liberal father. I was telling him about how McCain screwed over the Navajo and Hopi communities and sold tribal land off to a multinational mining corporation which was going to end up dumping waste into the water supply there. His predictable response was that the tribes allowed it by one of their own (Ben Shelly), the Navajo Nation president- as if that excuses it.
Story:
+ Show Spoiler +
It's the usual tactic I see used by liberals and capitalists many times to use a sell out of "their own" to co-opt and destroy resistance. Then use it to deflect. So truly typical.
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On July 24 2018 22:15 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2018 22:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 24 2018 22:05 JimmiC wrote:On July 24 2018 21:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 24 2018 21:08 iamthedave wrote:On July 24 2018 21:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 24 2018 20:57 Gorsameth wrote:On July 24 2018 20:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 24 2018 20:46 screamingpalm wrote:
Just my own perspective here, but maybe liberals should spend less time condescending about "tone" and more time weighing substance. Perhaps show some of that empathy they preach? If you're having issues with what is being said, or even how, that says more about you than anything else. Figure out why it's making you so uncomfortable. GH is doing far better than I could possibly do talking to liberals though, and my family is full of them, heh. I gave up that attempt long ago. :D As they've said, they're perfectly aware of the phenomena at play and think that they can simultaneously be fully aware of it and use it as a defense for inaction and defensiveness without any irony. Just because people are aware of it and wanting to improve on it does not mean they are willing to give up healthcare, gay rights and a horde of other things for a minimally tiny chance of maybe one day getting something possible better. It's a long way to the Wiz carrying a strawman that poorly built, you sure you want to embark on this journey? (y/n) I think what you mean to say is that there are a lot of people that are mostly content with going back to fucking over the groups they agreed on earlier. Eventually, with enough lesser evilism and dreaming, we may get around to addressing the groups/issues we didn't have a conniption about and compare to the ending of all that is good and free in the world in a blind hysteria over some reality TV freak show. Do you believe Trump has had no lasting impact on the US? (y/n) Of course (he's had a lasting impact* edited for clarity), he's the president of the country. Sometimes I really wonder about you guys... On July 24 2018 21:10 JimmiC wrote:On July 24 2018 16:08 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 24 2018 14:02 JimmiC wrote:On July 24 2018 13:54 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 24 2018 13:03 JimmiC wrote:On July 24 2018 11:40 Liquid`Jinro wrote:This podcast episode from like yesterday:ish, was remarkably on topic with GH's recent posts (people overestimating relative progress, psychology of reactions to demographic shifts etc --- interestingly black people have a similar reaction to white people when it comes to the increase in people of hispanic descent). The most important idea for understanding American politics in 2018 https://art19.com/shows/the-ezra-klein-show/episodes/c7782f5a-92bf-4ab5-8640-215944d0568bI thought it was a good listen, though I'm far from an expert on the subject. EDIT: Also if everyone could tone it down a bit so I don't have to waste time writing warnings that'd be wonderful. I listened to that as well and read some articles on it. Was pretty interesting. The issue is GH isn't about people overestimating progress, his point is there is no progress, which I think is foolish and takes away from the actual issue. Where I live it is not about black vs white, but it is about aboriginals vs everybody who took the land. The have reserves and a fair bit of money from the government but due to many reasons it is not helping. I think there are a lot of parallels between how the Aboriginal Canadians are struggling here and how the African Americans are struggling in the Southern States. The government tacts are completely different but the results so far have been no different. I think some would even argue that it is worse for aboriginals. The opioid deaths alone are staggering. Not to mention the % in jail compared to the rest of the population. https://www.ryerson.ca/chair-indigenous-governance/research-projects/ongoing/first-nations-poverty-in-canada/https://globalnews.ca/news/3795083/reserves-poverty-line-census/http://www.cwp-csp.ca/2017/06/150-years-of-colonialism-and-poverty/ Aboriginal people in Canada are treated pretty terribly by the government. I'm not sure the tacts are "totally different" so much as Canada's treatment is more sterotypically moderately more humane than the sterotypically brutal nature of US policy/practices. But even that is largely misleading. Canada's treatment of aboriginal people has been plenty brutal in it's own right. You don't get to use my name and mischaracterize my argument after lobbing a completely unacceptable (except by TL standards) personal attack, and act like I'm the unreasonable one. Since you can't discuss things in a manner which doesn't shit up the thread with your poorly put together arguments and inability to understand what is being discussed, you need to at least keep my name and arguments out your posts Those in glass houses my friend. And like you I said without malice. And you are right historically, as ive brought up residential housing in the past. I believe seeker politely asked you and me to pm. So if you feel free to continue this discussion where you make up my lack of understanding and your facts, feel free. If Jinro nailed your point and I misinterpreted it, you could have saved a bunch of posts from a bunch of people and just stated it. I thought your point, and asked you, if you thought there was no measurable changes in comparisons to whites. People over estimating the change is a completely reasonable point. I was still waiting for those measurable improvements and you pointed to actors and Emmy's (besides the ones I pointed out were clearly critically flawed for the reasons I explained). Fortunately I think the whole thing was rather informative for those who were able to tell right away what I was saying before someone else explained it to them in a way that didn't upset them in a manner that blinded them from being able to see the point being made the whole time. I think I'm starting to understand IgnE's point about the benefit of people not understanding your argument even if arriving there from different circumstances. But now I find myself caught between letting you spout your argument unchallenged or confronting it by first establishing by what metrics "the tacts are completely different" and not merely degrees of difference. But also at a loss as the stuff I don't know is about Canada, not the US and this is the US politics thread in which you're arguing that Canada's approach is radically different than the US's. I'd really like to drop it but we just had the response which indicated that they saw you arguing that there are these problems in communities largely as a result of previous (and some current) policy but no idea what to do about it. But people know what to do about it. The people claiming not to know what to do just don't want to do it. Yes critically flawed. It is no better the 1960 I have seen the light, I had no idea that all black people in the government or places of power and authority that were not there in 1960 were the equivalent of "Jews who were Nazi's".\ A black middle class did not exist, now does. But you are right that is not measurable either. So on and so forth. I should have listened to others and realized a discussion with you is pointless because you are more interested in fighting and being "hardcore" then the truth. If you would just admit that there are some changes, or maybe Lenin and Stalin were not good guys, or so on the rest of your point would not be lost. But you go into hyperbole at some point, then die on that hill for 3-5 pages. Crazy. Honest question: Are you intentionally missing the point out of spite or something or do you still genuinely not even understand the premise that has been explained to you multiple times by different people already? On July 24 2018 21:10 Aquanim wrote:On July 24 2018 20:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 24 2018 20:46 screamingpalm wrote:
Just my own perspective here, but maybe liberals should spend less time condescending about "tone" and more time weighing substance. Perhaps show some of that empathy they preach? If you're having issues with what is being said, or even how, that says more about you than anything else. Figure out why it's making you so uncomfortable. GH is doing far better than I could possibly do talking to liberals though, and my family is full of them, heh. I gave up that attempt long ago. :D As they've said, they're perfectly aware of the phenomena at play and think that they can simultaneously be fully aware of it and use it as a defense for inaction and defensiveness without any irony. I dunno whether to call this an overgeneralisation or a strawman, but you can take your pick. I prefer "pithy summation demonstrated in close proximity" but to each their own. Unless you moved the goal posts I'm still trying to get through this from many pages back. Answer me this if you would please. In what measurable ways has the gap between white and Black people closed since the 60's? I brought up a couple, and clarified that you in fact meant this. The easiest one was number of blacks in government. It used to be 100% white 0% black, now it is not. (I'm not re looking up these stats again). You could look at number of students in universities, and yes I did bring up Blacks in entertainment, which has changed dramatically and is very important in America. I'm not going to rehash everything. But this is what I am responding to. The social changes and changes in perception alone are huge and measurable. I was mostly agreeing with you up until you posted the above and then I wanted to check if you believed that statement or were using hyperbole. You stated that in fact you believe this statement, you asked me for reasons it was not true. I gave them, you called black politicians Nazi jews, and so on. Yeah, what kind of Black people aren't thankful for such improvements as Ben Carson at HUD and surely women should also be quite proud of progress demonstrated by Nikki Haley and Betsy Devos. Also did you guys even know that there is a BLACK entertainment channel!?!? I know you're arguing sincerely and attempting to belittle my argument but it's such an embarrassing attempt it's really hard to ignore. I'm not attempting to belittle your argument, I'm attempting to bring it back to reality so instead of upsetting and fighting with people you have a chance of convincing them. So how about instead of: Show nested quote +Answer me this if you would please. In what measurable ways has the gap between white and Black people closed since the 60's? You go with "There has been FEW MEANINGFUL ways that the gap between white and black people has been closed economically since the 60's" I think this might be more what you mean but it isn't what you said.
Mine was a question/request in hopes people would examine more closely what and how they measure with consideration to the oft repeated "it's better than it used to be". Most importantly with a focus on whether Black and white people are closer or further away from each other when it comes to traditional measures of success in a democratic/capitalistic society like wealth, income, social mobility, and self-determination.
Due to the nature of stuff like this I made sure to qualify what I was looking for with "measurable" to indicate to avoid subjective interpretation arguments like "people are less racist" for which any particular town or person may be true or wildly inaccurate.
All sorts of hell broke loose after that, but rather than spaz out at the question think more on what 60+ years of freakishly loyal and proactive support of Democrats getting "FEW MEANINGFUL improvements" of which you cite Black people in office (without even addressing the whole Ben Carson aspect), college completion (sans the critical comparison to white people where when upon looking we find the gap has actually widened), and entertainment (clearly oblivious to the role of "entertainer" which white people have long expressed a comfort in allowing) as if you even thinking it's worth mentioning isn't demonstrative of how thin the stockpile is.
The most comically demeaning part of it all though is the abstraction that you're the one bringing us towards reality.
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On July 24 2018 22:19 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2018 22:11 farvacola wrote:
We also allow absentee voting, whereas India does not. Thus, ID requirements implicate different concerns when they potentially burden some groups more than others. Netherlands allows absentee voting and has voter ID requirements. Voter has to fill out a card that authorizes another person to vote on his behalf (fill out your ID card number and sign it, and fill out the ID card number and name of the person you authorize). For voting abroad you need to register with the consulate (or if you'll just be on holiday, you can do this through your municipality) to send your ballot by snail mail. Next elections there will be trials with voting abroad through the digital platform, but I don't know yet how that will work.
Is voting in the Netherlands federalized? Our system's lack of universality and susceptibility to the whims of state governments are big obstacles that need overcome imo.
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EPT
