EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 531
| Forum Index > General Forum |
Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
|
Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
| ||
|
GreenHorizons
United States22991 Posts
On July 24 2018 19:08 Aquanim wrote: There is a distinction between "pissing people off to sway them to your position" and "pissing people off in the process of swaying them to your position". That's an important distinction I would actually agree has a reasonably prevalent tendency to be missed by many on various factions of the left. Anarchists (of various stripes) are somewhat notorious for this. fwiw, it's the one I was trying to make. | ||
|
Velr
Switzerland10643 Posts
People feeling attacked/pissed off go in defense mode and aren't open to new ideas/suggestions at all anymore. It doesn't matter what your goal is or when in the conversation it happens. As soon as someone is in defense mode, the gates are shut. This is human relations 101. | ||
|
screamingpalm
United States1527 Posts
Remember when capitalists tried to use him to sell trucks in a Super Bowl ad? Well, someone wasn't having any of that.  + Show Spoiler + | ||
|
GreenHorizons
United States22991 Posts
On July 24 2018 19:24 Velr wrote: No, it isn't. People feeling attacked/pissed off go in defense mode and aren't open to new ideas/suggestions at all anymore. It doesn't matter what your goal is or when in the conversation it happens. As soon as someone is in defense mode, the gates are shut. This is human relations 101. When you don't even quote the post your attempting to dispute it makes it harder to know what it is you're even disputing. They feel attacked because white supremacy (and the benefits they derive from it) are being attacked. That's something no amount of polishing is going to change. If that upsets them and makes them defensive that's something they have to look into themselves. Anyone that can identify that common happening is more than capable of using their frontal lobe and thinking critically about who's responsibility that is to deal with. It's not the people, from which their oppression is a source of this privileged persons position from which they have the benefit of retreating back to a more comfortable status quo. / It's like dealing with an addict that's refused rehab/interventions multiple times. Anyone that's dealt with anything like that knows that you'd make more progress bashing your head into a brick wall than you would with ''civil discourse'. | ||
|
Velr
Switzerland10643 Posts
I'm not arguing that your points are untrue, just that your methods are useless. You never wondered why the majority of people in this tread at least somewhat agree with you yet you constantly alienate many of them? Your not helping your cause at all, you are probably even hurting it. | ||
|
iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On July 24 2018 19:42 GreenHorizons wrote: When you don't even quote the post your attempting to dispute it makes it harder to know what it is you're even disputing. They feel attacked because white supremacy (and the benefits they derive from it) are being attacked. That's something no amount of polishing is going to change. If that upsets them and makes them defensive that's something they have to look into themselves. Anyone that can identify that common happening is more than capable of using their frontal lobe and thinking critically about who's responsibility that is to deal with. It's not the people, from which their oppression is a source of this privileged persons position from which they have the benefit of retreating back to a more comfortable status quo. / It's like dealing with an addict that's refused rehab/interventions multiple times. Anyone that's dealt with anything like that knows that you'd make more progress bashing your head into a brick wall than you would with ''civil discourse'. Anyone that's dealt with anything like that knows that you have to try a variety of approaches and hope one works. Civil discourse does work with some, depending on the discourse. People are different, and respond to different stimuli. | ||
|
screamingpalm
United States1527 Posts
| ||
|
GreenHorizons
United States22991 Posts
On July 24 2018 20:46 screamingpalm wrote: Just my own perspective here, but maybe liberals should spend less time condescending about "tone" and more time weighing substance. Perhaps show some of that empathy they preach? If you're having issues with what is being said, or even how, that says more about you than anything else. Figure out why it's making you so uncomfortable. GH is doing far better than I could possibly do talking to liberals though, and my family is full of them, heh. I gave up that attempt long ago. :D As they've said, they're perfectly aware of the phenomena at play and think that they can simultaneously be fully aware of it and use it as a defense for inaction and defensiveness without any irony. | ||
|
Gorsameth
Netherlands21528 Posts
On July 24 2018 20:51 GreenHorizons wrote: Just because people are aware of it and wanting to improve on it does not mean they are willing to give up healthcare, gay rights and a horde of other things for a minimally tiny chance of maybe one day getting something possible better.As they've said, they're perfectly aware of the phenomena at play and think that they can simultaneously be fully aware of it and use it as a defense for inaction and defensiveness without any irony. | ||
|
GreenHorizons
United States22991 Posts
On July 24 2018 20:57 Gorsameth wrote: Just because people are aware of it and wanting to improve on it does not mean they are willing to give up healthcare, gay rights and a horde of other things for a minimally tiny chance of maybe one day getting something possible better. It's a long way to the Wiz carrying a strawman that poorly built, you sure you want to embark on this journey? (y/n) I think what you mean to say is that there are a lot of people that are mostly content with going back to fucking over the groups they agreed on earlier. Eventually, with enough lesser evilism and dreaming, we may get around to addressing the groups/issues we didn't have a conniption about and compare to the ending of all that is good and free in the world in a blind hysteria over some reality TV freak show. | ||
|
gobbledydook
Australia2599 Posts
On July 24 2018 19:42 GreenHorizons wrote: When you don't even quote the post your attempting to dispute it makes it harder to know what it is you're even disputing. They feel attacked because white supremacy (and the benefits they derive from it) are being attacked. That's something no amount of polishing is going to change. If that upsets them and makes them defensive that's something they have to look into themselves. Anyone that can identify that common happening is more than capable of using their frontal lobe and thinking critically about who's responsibility that is to deal with. It's not the people, from which their oppression is a source of this privileged persons position from which they have the benefit of retreating back to a more comfortable status quo. / It's like dealing with an addict that's refused rehab/interventions multiple times. Anyone that's dealt with anything like that knows that you'd make more progress bashing your head into a brick wall than you would with ''civil discourse'. This is where most of those whom you call ' benefiting from white supremacy' would disagree. To them, there is nothing about white supremacy that they are benefiting from. Their ancestors weren't rich enough to own slaves. Yes, there were some white assholes who treated non white people like shit, but that wasn't them. It's not like they got rich because black people couldn't vote. All they are trying to do is make a living in a world that is changing rapidly, in an economy that is shifting against them, and now well-to-do people on the coast are suddenly calling them racists. If you were one of them, how would you feel? Now there is one person, Donald Trump, who promises to protect them, against the unfair accusations of the liberal elite. One who promises to bring back the golden years of the American heartland. He might have a dirty mouth, but so? He's the only one standing up for them. Who do you support? And then, in response to this support, the left calls them racist even more. What do you think happens? Please, not everyone who supports Donald Trump is an idiot or a racist. He may be peddling false hope. But Clinton-style business as usual is not working at all for them, and unless someone comes up with a better pitch, Donald Trump it is. | ||
|
iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On July 24 2018 21:03 GreenHorizons wrote: It's a long way to the Wiz carrying a strawman that poorly built, you sure you want to embark on this journey? (y/n) I think what you mean to say is that there are a lot of people that are mostly content with going back to fucking over the groups they agreed on earlier. Eventually, with enough lesser evilism and dreaming, we may get around to addressing the groups/issues we didn't have a conniption about and compare to the ending of all that is good and free in the world in a blind hysteria over some reality TV freak show. Do you believe Trump has had no lasting impact on the US? (y/n) | ||
|
Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On July 24 2018 20:51 GreenHorizons wrote: As they've said, they're perfectly aware of the phenomena at play and think that they can simultaneously be fully aware of it and use it as a defense for inaction and defensiveness without any irony. I dunno whether to call this an overgeneralisation or a strawman, but you can take your pick. | ||
|
JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
| ||
|
GreenHorizons
United States22991 Posts
On July 24 2018 21:08 iamthedave wrote: Do you believe Trump has had no lasting impact on the US? (y/n) Of course (he's had a lasting impact* edited for clarity), he's the president of the country. Sometimes I really wonder about you guys... On July 24 2018 21:10 JimmiC wrote: Yes critically flawed. It is no better the 1960 I have seen the light, I had no idea that all black people in the government or places of power and authority that were not there in 1960 were the equivalent of "Jews who were Nazi's".\ A black middle class did not exist, now does. But you are right that is not measurable either. So on and so forth. I should have listened to others and realized a discussion with you is pointless because you are more interested in fighting and being "hardcore" then the truth. If you would just admit that there are some changes, or maybe Lenin and Stalin were not good guys, or so on the rest of your point would not be lost. But you go into hyperbole at some point, then die on that hill for 3-5 pages. Crazy. Honest question: Are you intentionally missing the point out of spite or something or do you still genuinely not even understand the premise that has been explained to you multiple times by different people already? On July 24 2018 21:10 Aquanim wrote: I dunno whether to call this an overgeneralisation or a strawman, but you can take your pick. I prefer "pithy summation demonstrated in close proximity" but to each their own. | ||
|
Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9487 Posts
On July 24 2018 21:04 gobbledydook wrote: This is where most of those whom you call ' benefiting from white supremacy' would disagree. To them, there is nothing about white supremacy that they are benefiting from. Their ancestors weren't rich enough to own slaves. Yes, there were some white assholes who treated non white people like shit, but that wasn't them. It's not like they got rich because black people couldn't vote. All they are trying to do is make a living in a world that is changing rapidly, in an economy that is shifting against them, and now well-to-do people on the coast are suddenly calling them racists. If you were one of them, how would you feel? Now there is one person, Donald Trump, who promises to protect them, against the unfair accusations of the liberal elite. One who promises to bring back the golden years of the American heartland. He might have a dirty mouth, but so? He's the only one standing up for them. Who do you support? And then, in response to this support, the left calls them racist even more. What do you think happens? Please, not everyone who supports Donald Trump is an idiot or a racist. He may be peddling false hope. But Clinton-style business as usual is not working at all for them, and unless someone comes up with a better pitch, Donald Trump it is. Is supporting a racist racism? I believe you judge people by their actions, and Trump's political career has been dominated by racist decision making, racist policy implementation and racist speeches. If you support this, for whatever reason, you are supporting a racist, and supporting the implementation of racist policy. I get where you are coming from. I've had a slightly similar conversation on here from your point of view. People are just getting on with their lives and are now being confronted with accusations of racism when they have never done anything consciously or overtly racist. I'm afraid that at some point the goalposts moved, and language around racism became generalized, and that's just something we have to deal with. Of course, its more specific and much more relevant to say that these people are perpetuating systematic racism and unconscious racism by inaction, but in a way its more effective and gets better retweet counts to call people racist and leave those people who are more capable of subtle insight to pick up the pieces. Despite all of this, its really the tiniest of inconveniences to be called racist on twitter compared to actually being the victim of racist oppression, and that's one of the main things I've had to incorporate into my posting on here, because as soon as you complain about being called racist as a self-defense mechanism, you are moving the conversation away from actually fixing any problems. EDIT: The bolded section: It may be that the goalposts moved, it may be that more voices from disadvantaged communities are able to be heard and this is the result. | ||
|
JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
| ||
|
GreenHorizons
United States22991 Posts
On July 24 2018 21:31 JimmiC wrote: I agree with you, I bring it up because the with how global the world is and how global this problem is I think it is worth looking at if there are any countries and groups that had this problem and improved on it. If the wheel does not need to be reinvented why do it. It also helps to understand that there are groups everywhere that have these issues, it is not just a blacks in America problem. What groups have improved? How have they done it? Was it government policy, regime change (and did that group make it better for all or just them)? What works? If nothing, what are some new ideas. Is "not global capitalism" on the table for "new ideas" | ||
|
Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On July 24 2018 21:10 GreenHorizons wrote: I prefer "pithy summation demonstrated in close proximity" but to each their own. So you're claiming screamingpalm's statement applies to liberals as an entire class? | ||
| ||
