US Politics Mega-thread - Page 530

On July 24 2018 12:06 JimmiC wrote:


Why would calling me white be malice? Do you think being white is an insult? I fully understand I don't know what it is like to be a black man in America. But what you don't understand is you have no fucking clue what it is like to be anything but yourself. You listen to know one and act superior to all. \

edit: and by the way when you have to write " I mean no malice" that means " you meant malice".

On July 24 2018 12:27 Seeker wrote:
JimmiC, GH, you two need to take it to PMs. The constant bickering is mucking up this thread. If you can't discuss things in a civil manner, then just don't discuss them.

I find you Uncle Tom, upper middle class black guy who complains about out the poor black people super offensive.

On July 24 2018 11:40 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
This podcast episode from like yesterday:ish, was remarkably on topic with GH's recent posts (people overestimating relative progress, psychology of reactions to demographic shifts etc --- interestingly black people have a similar reaction to white people when it comes to the increase in people of hispanic descent).

The most important idea for understanding American politics in 2018 https://art19.com/shows/the-ezra-klein-show/episodes/c7782f5a-92bf-4ab5-8640-215944d0568b

I thought it was a good listen, though I'm far from an expert on the subject.

EDIT: Also if everyone could tone it down a bit so I don't have to waste time writing warnings that'd be wonderful.

On July 24 2018 12:42 Mercy13 wrote:


I listened to that as well and second the recommendation. I'm pretty convinced that one of the keys to Trump's victory was how effective he was at getting people to think about race, which per the research discussed in the podcast tends to make white independents more conservative.

He's continued this strategy during his presidency, the latest example being when he randomly attacked black NFL players for protesting police brutality to distract from his awful summit. He might as well just tweet "LOOK THERE ARE BLACK PEOPLE" and it will make white people more likely to support him.

My pessimistic take is that liberals are in a losing race to gain unified control of the government before the white majority does permanent damage to our democracy in its attempts to hang onto power despite demographic decline. Unfortunately the GOP has been extremely effective in attacking voting rights directly through legislation and indirectly through gerrymandering, and they now have a SCOTUS majority which will rubber stamp additional efforts along these lines.

In sum I'm pretty sure our democracy is screwed.

On July 24 2018 13:02 Kyadytim wrote:

No disagreement here. Unless the rest of the country take total control of the federal government and enough states to pass constitutional amendments and use that to do a massive overhaul of our federal government and how we do elections, things are going to go downhill

The regressive and authoritarian elements in the GOP are never going to willingly give up the disproportionate power the senate and therefore the electoral college give them.* The only way entrenched minority rule ends is if something changes the way the electorate votes faster than they can entrench themselves or if the discontent majority turns to violence to address their grievances. Given the current state of the federal government, state governments, and supreme court and the trend of populous states representing an increasing share of the total national population, I'm inclined to expect an uncomfortably long period of GOP minority rule that eventually ends in bloodshed.


*For anyone who didn't know, a state gets one elector in the electoral college for each representative they have in Congress. That is a minimum of three, two senators and a house representative.

On July 24 2018 13:03 JimmiC wrote:


I listened to that as well and read some articles on it. Was pretty interesting. The issue is GH isn't about people overestimating progress, his point is there is no progress, which I think is foolish and takes away from the actual issue. Where I live it is not about black vs white, but it is about aboriginals vs everybody who took the land. The have reserves and a fair bit of money from the government but due to many reasons it is not helping. I think there are a lot of parallels between how the Aboriginal Canadians are struggling here and how the African Americans are struggling in the Southern States. The government tacts are completely different but the results so far have been no different. I think some would even argue that it is worse for aboriginals. The opioid deaths alone are staggering. Not to mention the % in jail compared to the rest of the population.

https://www.ryerson.ca/chair-indigenous-governance/research-projects/ongoing/first-nations-poverty-in-canada/

https://globalnews.ca/news/3795083/reserves-poverty-line-census/

http://www.cwp-csp.ca/2017/06/150-years-of-colonialism-and-poverty/

On July 24 2018 13:03 JimmiC wrote:


I listened to that as well and read some articles on it. Was pretty interesting. The issue is GH isn't about people overestimating progress, his point is there is no progress, which I think is foolish and takes away from the actual issue. Where I live it is not about black vs white, but it is about aboriginals vs everybody who took the land. The have reserves and a fair bit of money from the government but due to many reasons it is not helping. I think there are a lot of parallels between how the Aboriginal Canadians are struggling here and how the African Americans are struggling in the Southern States. The government tacts are completely different but the results so far have been no different. I think some would even argue that it is worse for aboriginals. The opioid deaths alone are staggering. Not to mention the % in jail compared to the rest of the population.

https://www.ryerson.ca/chair-indigenous-governance/research-projects/ongoing/first-nations-poverty-in-canada/

https://globalnews.ca/news/3795083/reserves-poverty-line-census/

http://www.cwp-csp.ca/2017/06/150-years-of-colonialism-and-poverty/

On July 24 2018 12:03 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Again you think Dems would read the Tea Leaves just like gay marriage Universal Healthcare, and Legalization have now majority support. And in order to win more of the populace they need to adjust to supporting those positions officially. But getting off the corporate tit is very hard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZO5gdhJ-zQ

On July 24 2018 14:02 JimmiC wrote:


Those in glass houses my friend. And like you I said without malice. And you are right historically, as ive brought up residential housing in the past. I believe seeker politely asked you and me to pm. So if you feel free to continue this discussion where you make up my lack of understanding and your facts, feel free. If Jinro nailed your point and I misinterpreted it, you could have saved a bunch of posts from a bunch of people and just stated it. I thought your point, and asked you, if you thought there was no measurable changes in comparisons to whites. People over estimating the change is a completely reasonable point.

On July 24 2018 16:08 GreenHorizons wrote:

I was still waiting for those measurable improvements and you pointed to actors and Emmy's (besides the ones I pointed out were clearly critically flawed for the reasons I explained).

Fortunately I think the whole thing was rather informative for those who were able to tell right away what I was saying before someone else explained it to them in a way that didn't upset them in a manner that blinded them from being able to see the point being made the whole time.

I think I'm starting to understand IgnE's point about the benefit of people not understanding your argument even if arriving there from different circumstances.

But now I find myself caught between letting you spout your argument unchallenged or confronting it by first establishing by what metrics "the tacts are completely different" and not merely degrees of difference. But also at a loss as the stuff I don't know is about Canada, not the US and this is the US politics thread in which you're arguing that Canada's approach is radically different than the US's.

I'd really like to drop it but we just had the response which indicated that they saw you arguing that there are these problems in communities largely as a result of previous (and some current) policy but no idea what to do about it.

But people know what to do about it. The people claiming not to know what to do just don't want to do it.

On July 24 2018 16:32 Jockmcplop wrote:


Do you think that you could get your point across better if you would do this?
Its not really a leading question, but I think its relevant because its a quirk that I've often seen on the hard left. People want others to be pissed off and feel uncomfortable about the discussion, but can't seem to get their head around what happens next (which is usually some kind of heavy resistance).
Is the resistance a part of how you demonstrate your point (generally )?

On July 24 2018 18:23 Jockmcplop wrote:
OK thanks just trying to get an insight into the nature of political debate. Its something that divides the left but I don't really see the need for a divide. You get your point across in this way, and I get my point - which is often the same as yours - across differently. (I'm not accusing you of this - but the tension is definitely there on the left; you see it every day)
The next question I have is why there is so much infighting about the method of delivery. Maybe attacking these problems from every conceivable angle is the best way.

First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that law and order exist for the purpose of establishing justice and that when they fail in this purpose they become the dangerously structured dams that block the flow of social progress. I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that the present tension in the South is a necessary phase of the transition from an obnoxious negative peace, in which the Negro passively accepted his unjust plight, to a substantive and positive peace, in which all men will respect the dignity and worth of human personality. Actually, we who engage in nonviolent direct action are not the creators of tension. We merely bring to the surface the hidden tension that is already alive. We bring it out in the open, where it can be seen and dealt with. Like a boil that can never be cured so long as it is covered up but must be opened with all its ugliness to the natural medicines of air and light, injustice must be exposed, with all the tension its exposure creates, to the light of human conscience and the air of national opinion before it can be cured.

On July 24 2018 18:31 Velr wrote:
Pissing of people to sway them to your position just might be the most ineffective way to do it there is.

...it must be a struggle. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will. Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them, and these will continue till they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress.