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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
On October 10 2025 00:24 KT_Elwood wrote:
All money is created from debt.
The US money system has been a scam since 1913. meh.
“When you accept money in payment for your effort, you do so only on the conviction that you will exchange it for the product of the effort of others. It is not the gun but the value of your work that gives you the right to money.
When money ceases to be the tool by which men deal with one another, then men become the tools of men.
Blood, whips and guns—or dollars. Take your choice—there is no other, and your time is running out.
Whenever destroyers appear among men, they start by destroying money, for money is men’s protection and the base of a moral existence.
They seize gold and leave to its owners a counterfeit pile of paper.
This kills all objective standards and delivers men into the arbitrary power of an arbitrary setter of values—an arbitrary power of government.”
Francisco D'Anconia in Atlas Shrugged. 1957.
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Learning about economics from Ayn Rand is approximately the same as learning about biology from Andrew Wakefield.
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On October 10 2025 00:41 LightSpectra wrote:
Learning about economics from Ayn Rand is approximately the same as learning about biology from Andrew Wakefield.
it is not an economic discussion. it is a moral and philosophical discussion. fiat money systems are a scam.
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True, "discussion" implies some kind of thought and cognizance.
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On October 10 2025 00:43 LightSpectra wrote:
True, "discussion" implies some kind of thought and cognizance.
it is explained in the quote. if you can't understand it... just say so. it went past you when you called it an economic discussion.
if you do not understand how the Fed is a Fiat money system or how Miss Rand criticized fiat money systems in that speech by D'anconia then you can probably figure it out with a couple of ChatGPT prompts.
"money is a tool of exchange that can not exist without goods produced and men able to produce them..."
Anyhow, the US money system has been a scam for over a century. Most people know that going in prepare accordingly.
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"Why don't you just ask the chatbot that hallucinates 40% of its answers about my conspiracy theories?"
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On October 10 2025 00:42 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2025 00:41 LightSpectra wrote:
Learning about economics from Ayn Rand is approximately the same as learning about biology from Andrew Wakefield. it is not an economic discussion. it is a moral and philosophical discussion. fiat money systems are a scam.
Aren't essentially all major national/world currencies considered "fiat"? Would you recommend bartering one good/material for another good/material instead?
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On October 10 2025 00:48 LightSpectra wrote:
"Why don't you just ask the chatbot that hallucinates 40% of its answers about my conspiracy theories?"
are you claiming that Miss Rand was not criticizing fiat money systems during Francisco D'Anconia's "the moral meaning of money" speech?
On October 10 2025 00:49 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2025 00:42 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On October 10 2025 00:41 LightSpectra wrote:
Learning about economics from Ayn Rand is approximately the same as learning about biology from Andrew Wakefield. it is not an economic discussion. it is a moral and philosophical discussion. fiat money systems are a scam. Aren't essentially all major national/world currencies considered "fiat"? Would you recommend bartering one good/material for another good/material instead?
before 1913 the US money system was not a scam. I recommend holding several different currencies and precious metals in your portfolio and watching the countries of the currencies you hold carefully. For example, in 2008, when the US dollar collapsed my grandparents and parents were protected because only 25% of their savings was USD.
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Gold is just as arbitrary as paper.
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On October 10 2025 00:50 Sadist wrote:
Gold is just as arbitrary as paper.
no, gold has objective value as a universal metal that can do 83759378 different things. Gold is not as arbitrary as paper.
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On October 10 2025 00:49 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2025 00:42 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On October 10 2025 00:41 LightSpectra wrote:
Learning about economics from Ayn Rand is approximately the same as learning about biology from Andrew Wakefield. it is not an economic discussion. it is a moral and philosophical discussion. fiat money systems are a scam. Aren't essentially all major national/world currencies considered "fiat"? Would you recommend bartering one good/material for another good/material instead?
The position of the Austrian school of economics, which Ayn Rand favored, is that individuals and businesses should make their own coins and currencies and let them duel for value in the free market. If she were POTUS she'd probably move to sell the Federal Reserve and U.S. Mint to the highest bidder.
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On October 10 2025 00:52 JimmyJRaynor wrote:no, gold has objective value as a universal metal that can do 83759378 different things. Gold is not as arbitrary as paper.
There is no such thing as a material having objective value. Value is subjective, by definition.
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On October 10 2025 00:53 LightSpectra wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2025 00:49 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On October 10 2025 00:42 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On October 10 2025 00:41 LightSpectra wrote:
Learning about economics from Ayn Rand is approximately the same as learning about biology from Andrew Wakefield. it is not an economic discussion. it is a moral and philosophical discussion. fiat money systems are a scam. Aren't essentially all major national/world currencies considered "fiat"? Would you recommend bartering one good/material for another good/material instead? The position of the Austrian school of economics, which Ayn Rand favored, is that individuals and businesses should make their own coins and currencies and let them duel for value in the free market. If she were POTUS she'd probably move to sell the Federal Reserve and U.S. Mint to the highest bidder.
That sounds ridiculous. It's definitely not a good idea for our country to start using "Musk Bucks" or "Donald Dollars".
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On October 10 2025 01:02 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2025 00:52 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On October 10 2025 00:50 Sadist wrote:
Gold is just as arbitrary as paper.
no, gold has objective value as a universal metal that can do 83759378 different things. Gold is not as arbitrary as paper. There is no such thing as a material having objective value. Value is subjective, by definition.
You can start a shitstorm with that statement if you say it to the right/wrong people. I agree though.
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This is pretty basic stuff. But, I'll outline it here any way. The problems with a fiat money system are
#1. They can create new money at any time. This devalues the current money supply and hits savers the hardest.
(b). as stated here earlier by another poster.... every dollar created corresponds to a liability somewhere in the system.
and (iii): large institutions can behave recklessly knowing they'll be bailed out. In 2008 and 2020, trillions were printed to stabilize financial markets. the wealthy saw huge gains and wealth inequality skyrocketed.
The average american got totally fucked over in 2008 and 2020.
On October 10 2025 01:02 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2025 00:52 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On October 10 2025 00:50 Sadist wrote:
Gold is just as arbitrary as paper.
no, gold has objective value as a universal metal that can do 83759378 different things. Gold is not as arbitrary as paper. There is no such thing as a material having objective value. Value is subjective, by definition.
no, gold has many uses. that gives it value.
it is used in the making of cars. it is an anti inflammatory. it is very useful in a plethora of medical devices , ortho implants.
Gold is amazing.
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On October 10 2025 01:02 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2025 00:52 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On October 10 2025 00:50 Sadist wrote:
Gold is just as arbitrary as paper.
no, gold has objective value as a universal metal that can do 83759378 different things. Gold is not as arbitrary as paper. There is no such thing as a material having objective value. Value is subjective, by definition.
Also, gold might be useful for a bunch of things. But that is not what it is mostly used for, or what people dig for gold for. Gold is not valuable because of any industrial use.
Gold is valuable because people trust other people will also value gold. So if you acquire gold, you can be pretty certain that you can exchange it for whatever you want. People even "invest" in gold, meaning they hope that they will be able to exchange the gold in the future for more than what they exchanged it for before.
But the value of gold is no less arbitrary than that of bitcoin or dollars. It is just a very historically stable meme, and thus self-perpetuates pretty well.
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On October 10 2025 01:14 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2025 01:02 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On October 10 2025 00:52 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On October 10 2025 00:50 Sadist wrote:
Gold is just as arbitrary as paper.
no, gold has objective value as a universal metal that can do 83759378 different things. Gold is not as arbitrary as paper. There is no such thing as a material having objective value. Value is subjective, by definition. Also, gold might be useful for a bunch of things. But that is not what it is mostly used for, or what people dig for gold for. Gold is not valuable because of any industrial use.
gold is essential in medicine. it does stuff no other metal can do.
Therefore, Gold is not as arbitrary as paper when it comes to its value.
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On October 10 2025 01:09 JimmyJRaynor wrote:This is pretty basic stuff. But, I'll outline it here any way. The problems with a fiat money system are #1. They can create new money at any time. This devalues the current money supply and hits savers the hardest. (b). as stated here earlier by another poster.... every dollar created corresponds to a liability somewhere in the system. and (iii): large institutions can behave recklessly knowing they'll be bailed out. In 2008 and 2020, trillions were printed to stabilize financial markets. the wealthy saw huge gains and wealth inequality skyrocketed. The average american got totally fucked over in 2008 and 2020. Show nested quote +On October 10 2025 01:02 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On October 10 2025 00:52 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On October 10 2025 00:50 Sadist wrote:
Gold is just as arbitrary as paper.
no, gold has objective value as a universal metal that can do 83759378 different things. Gold is not as arbitrary as paper. There is no such thing as a material having objective value. Value is subjective, by definition. no, gold has many uses. that gives it value. it is used in the making of cars. it is an anti inflammatory. it is very useful in a plethora of medical devices , ortho implants. Gold is amazing.
You could use the same argument for plastic.
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On October 10 2025 01:15 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2025 01:14 Simberto wrote:On October 10 2025 01:02 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On October 10 2025 00:52 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On October 10 2025 00:50 Sadist wrote:
Gold is just as arbitrary as paper.
no, gold has objective value as a universal metal that can do 83759378 different things. Gold is not as arbitrary as paper. There is no such thing as a material having objective value. Value is subjective, by definition. Also, gold might be useful for a bunch of things. But that is not what it is mostly used for, or what people dig for gold for. Gold is not valuable because of any industrial use. gold is essential in medicine. it does stuff no other metal can do. Therefore, Gold is not as arbitrary as paper when it comes to its value.
you could make the same argument for plastic, again.
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On October 10 2025 01:09 JimmyJRaynor wrote:This is pretty basic stuff. But, I'll outline it here any way. The problems with a fiat money system are #1. They can create new money at any time. This devalues the current money supply and hits savers the hardest. (b). as stated here earlier by another poster.... every dollar created corresponds to a liability somewhere in the system. and (iii): large institutions can behave recklessly knowing they'll be bailed out. In 2008 and 2020, trillions were printed to stabilize financial markets. the wealthy saw huge gains and wealth inequality skyrocketed. The average american got totally fucked over in 2008 and 2020. Show nested quote +On October 10 2025 01:02 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On October 10 2025 00:52 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On October 10 2025 00:50 Sadist wrote:
Gold is just as arbitrary as paper.
no, gold has objective value as a universal metal that can do 83759378 different things. Gold is not as arbitrary as paper. There is no such thing as a material having objective value. Value is subjective, by definition. no, gold has many uses. that gives it value.
To the people who want to use gold in those ways and/or have gold, it absolutely does have value! Gold can be valuable to many people, but that doesn't mean it has objective value.
Paper money can also have value; it's certainly lighter and easier to carry than gold. Still subjective though.
Bananas can also have value; you probably don't want to eat gold. Still subjective though.
Value is based on priority.
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EPT
