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On September 22 2025 19:17 Uldridge wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2025 19:13 Jockmcplop wrote:On September 22 2025 19:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 22 2025 17:19 Uldridge wrote:+ Show Spoiler +There comes a point in time where you'll have to ask yourself: do you take part in that systematic destruction of a democratic society, which has a very chroncled playbook (last iteration I know of were The Philippines and Brazil) by either supporting it or passively letting it happen or do you stand up and counter this erosion, followed by destruction? I'm asking the people here who staunchly vote D, what their arbitrary line is. There is a point where your party, which I commend that you follow for lesser evilism sake, does become unredemptionable + Show Spoiler +(irredeemable is correct but I speak Dutch so I can make that word and you know what it means anyway so whatever) ? I don't think anyone here has spoken out for what their own limit would be + Show Spoiler +and am interested in taking the temperature on what it actually is.
Democracy can be a legitimately difficult to navigate landscape because you have an eniterly opposed ideology that always wants to revert to "the good times" where there were less rights and society was less liberal so you can't cry out: fascism every single time a cabinet can do its thing with the support of half the population, but still, there should be a better way then losing control this fast, no? They don't have one. There's no evil they couldn't vote for and don't understand the problem with that. This is definitely true. If the Republicans promised to build enough gas chambers to kill 100% of the Mexicans in America, so the Democrats, as they would, decided to try and wrestle some of the vote from them by building enough gas chambers to kill 99% of the Mexicans in America, we would be getting told by seemingly intelligent people that it is absolutely unconscionable to refuse to vote for the party that wants to kill 99% of Mexicans in America. I think it's a hard exercise as many people here grew uo extremely priviliged and so haven't been in contact with truly (prolonged) dire situations. Not like family members dying, but like parts of the community being deconstructed and reshaped into hell. Your line has been crossed many times over, people should start actively digging into themselves and ask where theirs is. When do we start giving up on every day comfort and stable income (i.e. food and shelter) to resist the destruction of this carefully built society? It's not easy to amswer that.
I applaud you for wanting/expecting them to, but they're not going to do it. They can't. They're incapable.
If they could, they'd just say "I draw the line at building gas chambers to kill more than 99% of Mexicans in America". But they don't say it, because it doesn't cross their line. They'd still vote for Democrats if they were also building enough gas chambers to kill 100% as long as they promised to do it slower than Republicans.
Part of the problem is that prior to Trump pretty much all of them would have said genocide definitely crossed their line. Turns out it didn't, and that is catastrophic to their self-image and worldview. The thoughtless chanting of "lesser evilism" acts like salve that eases the pain so long as they never stop applying it, even to the rotten flesh falling off the shattered bones of their humanity.
It's also easier/more fun to "argue with squirrels" about inane things like whether masked people in unmarked vans snatching citizens off the street is a problem and/or the classic mock and gawk. *sigh*
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On September 22 2025 22:59 Razyda wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2025 22:46 LightSpectra wrote:On September 22 2025 22:42 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 22:06 Luolis wrote:On September 22 2025 19:00 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 18:29 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 22 2025 17:42 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 09:29 WombaT wrote:
ICE are not operating under those conditions. They are meant to enforce the law of the land, in a nation that doesn’t have an active terrorist campaign operating.
Tell it to Charlie Kirk kids, people whose Teslas were burned, business owners whose shops were burned. What does ICE have to do with Charlie Kirk's assassination? ?? I said that ICE agents wear mask to protect their identity, so people wont dox them and threat them and their families. Wombat argument was essentially that there is no ongoing terrorist campaign in US. (implying that they have nothing to worry about) Me mentioning Kirk was pointing out that even though there isnt ongoing terror campaign, bad shit happens. Kirk was killed because "some hatred cannot be negotiated with" Are we sure that there arent any deranged individuals, who will find out on the internet that there is - check notes - "gestapo" member living in the area and decide to take action? Everything that you are saying here is irrelevant. Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable. You cannot do that if their faces are hidden and they have no identification. That is why normal police have names visible, have body cameras and are required to answer questions about who they are. Masked men disappearing people could be anyone. ICE, random criminals, etc. We don't know. That is only increasing unrest in society. If ICE wanna be the police, they should atleast make sure they are recognizable and have body cams so we can see what they are doing. "Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable." - they are. "You cannot do that" - yes you can. Lets be honest here. You can file complain with ICE (police, FBI, court, not sure exactly which one) about their agents. So all your talk about being held accountable, is exact reason why they cover their faces. Walk me through this process, I eat crayons. I catch a local police officer taking bribes. I take a photo and report his name and badge number to his precinct. At that point if they ignore me, I can find a journalist to report it. A masked ICE agent shoves someone I know to be a U.S. citizen into an unmarked van. Who do I report this to, how, and what do I do if they ignore me? "A masked ICE agent shoves someone I know to be a U.S. citizen into an unmarked van. Who do I report this to, how, and what do I do if they ignore me? " the same people you would report it to, if he was unmasked?? Show nested quote +On September 22 2025 22:50 Luolis wrote:On September 22 2025 22:42 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 22:06 Luolis wrote:On September 22 2025 19:00 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 18:29 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 22 2025 17:42 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 09:29 WombaT wrote:
ICE are not operating under those conditions. They are meant to enforce the law of the land, in a nation that doesn’t have an active terrorist campaign operating.
Tell it to Charlie Kirk kids, people whose Teslas were burned, business owners whose shops were burned. What does ICE have to do with Charlie Kirk's assassination? ?? I said that ICE agents wear mask to protect their identity, so people wont dox them and threat them and their families. Wombat argument was essentially that there is no ongoing terrorist campaign in US. (implying that they have nothing to worry about) Me mentioning Kirk was pointing out that even though there isnt ongoing terror campaign, bad shit happens. Kirk was killed because "some hatred cannot be negotiated with" Are we sure that there arent any deranged individuals, who will find out on the internet that there is - check notes - "gestapo" member living in the area and decide to take action? Everything that you are saying here is irrelevant. Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable. You cannot do that if their faces are hidden and they have no identification. That is why normal police have names visible, have body cameras and are required to answer questions about who they are. Masked men disappearing people could be anyone. ICE, random criminals, etc. We don't know. That is only increasing unrest in society. If ICE wanna be the police, they should atleast make sure they are recognizable and have body cams so we can see what they are doing. "Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable." - they are. "You cannot do that" - yes you can. Lets be honest here. You can file complain with ICE (police, FBI, court, not sure exactly which one) about their agents. So all your talk about being held accountable, is exact reason why they cover their faces. How naive are you? Police lie all the time. That's why they have body cams because otherwise they would just say "we investigated ourselves and found no wrongdoing". Filing a complaint with nothing to point to except "masked man who said hes ICE kidnapped my husband" is not very apt and full with information if you cannot even point to who the possible ICE member was and if there is no video proof. I actually dont mind body cams, I think thats perfect compromise, but people somehow focus on masks. Seems odd.
Police and police adjacent people should be recognizable. This helps prevent them from abusing their power, and helps the average citizen to have trust in them as well as in case of abuses, direct the complaints towards the right policemen.
By your logic, policemen should have their faces hidden too and nothing to have them be recognized because therr is anti-police sentiment in the US. I'm sure you realize how ridiculous that idea is.
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On September 22 2025 22:39 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +The consistent framing of democrats as 'lesser evil' is already a prejudgement. I had a lot of things I liked in Clinton's, Biden's and Harris' platforms. I didn't like everything, but I liked a lot. I'm an adult human being, I know you only achieve things through compromise -- one-sided impositions just lead to a yo-yo where each administration just undoes whatever the last one did. Okay, but this is untrue, we've watched the Republicans basically one-side their way through the systems of power in the US, the bolded statement here is Democrat centrist tripe that tries to make it seem like the only reasonable view is a moderate centrist view. The only compromising thats ever done in the US is when the Democrats compromise their supposed values to support something the Republicans want.
Which is why the system is breaking down. But this is not a 'lesser of two evils' situation and more of a 'one party is serious about governing', the other just wants to burn it all down. The framing isn't bad dems bad, it's more, holy moly, what's going on with the GOP?
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Northern Ireland26086 Posts
On September 22 2025 22:42 Razyda wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2025 22:06 Luolis wrote:On September 22 2025 19:00 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 18:29 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 22 2025 17:42 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 09:29 WombaT wrote:
ICE are not operating under those conditions. They are meant to enforce the law of the land, in a nation that doesn’t have an active terrorist campaign operating.
Tell it to Charlie Kirk kids, people whose Teslas were burned, business owners whose shops were burned. What does ICE have to do with Charlie Kirk's assassination? ?? I said that ICE agents wear mask to protect their identity, so people wont dox them and threat them and their families. Wombat argument was essentially that there is no ongoing terrorist campaign in US. (implying that they have nothing to worry about) Me mentioning Kirk was pointing out that even though there isnt ongoing terror campaign, bad shit happens. Kirk was killed because "some hatred cannot be negotiated with" Are we sure that there arent any deranged individuals, who will find out on the internet that there is - check notes - "gestapo" member living in the area and decide to take action? Everything that you are saying here is irrelevant. Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable. You cannot do that if their faces are hidden and they have no identification. That is why normal police have names visible, have body cameras and are required to answer questions about who they are. Masked men disappearing people could be anyone. ICE, random criminals, etc. We don't know. That is only increasing unrest in society. If ICE wanna be the police, they should atleast make sure they are recognizable and have body cams so we can see what they are doing. "Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable." - they are. "You cannot do that" - yes you can. Lets be honest here. You can file complain with ICE (police, FBI, court, not sure exactly which one) about their agents. So all your talk about being held accountable, is exact reason why they cover their faces.
‘Thank you for your concern and coming to us citizen, can you give a description of the individual you saw engaging in illegality?’
‘Emmmmmmmm…’
Obviously this doesn’t make it impossible. Just more difficult.
Accountability of that kind is only one part of it. The other is optics, morale, people’s feelings of safety and justice.
People running around, often without uniform or real means of identification, often masked, detaining people who are (rather often) non-white or from specific backgrounds is going to terrify people. Or anger them. Or both.
People have also correctly pointed out other negative scenarios that can spawn from this, such as criminals being able to impersonate ICE agents.
As per my previous argument, my point in invoking the British Army on the streets of Northern Ireland was that soldiers had a job to do, and functions to fulfil. A function that isn’t especially compatible with frequently running around masked and in plainclothes.
Yeah, that placed them under more risk, as would ICE agents be, but it’s worth the tradeoff overall, least for myself.
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On September 22 2025 23:05 EnDeR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2025 22:39 Zambrah wrote:The consistent framing of democrats as 'lesser evil' is already a prejudgement. I had a lot of things I liked in Clinton's, Biden's and Harris' platforms. I didn't like everything, but I liked a lot. I'm an adult human being, I know you only achieve things through compromise -- one-sided impositions just lead to a yo-yo where each administration just undoes whatever the last one did. Okay, but this is untrue, we've watched the Republicans basically one-side their way through the systems of power in the US, the bolded statement here is Democrat centrist tripe that tries to make it seem like the only reasonable view is a moderate centrist view. The only compromising thats ever done in the US is when the Democrats compromise their supposed values to support something the Republicans want. Which is why the system is breaking down. But this is not a 'lesser of two evils' situation and more of a 'one party is serious about governing', the other just wants to burn it all down. The framing isn't bad dems bad, it's more, holy moly, what's going on with the GOP?
The system is breaking down for a lot of reasons, the Republicans are certainly taking hammers to it, but not inherently because they aren't compromising and compromise is right and just, its because theyre fascists. Like if people elected 99% Democrats that would mean there wouldnt be any compromise with the 1% Republicans (maybe, I actually think they might) but that wouldnt mean the system was broken, if they were elected by those catastrophically large margins then the system isnt breaking down, the system is working fine.
My point is really that governance isnt about compromise, centrists and moderates want to think that way because acting like its "adult" and "mature" to think that way is a really uncomplicated way to perceive power and governance, when in reality governance is actually about achieving and wielding power. In a better world maybe that involves discussion and compromise when necessary, but compromise itself isnt necessary.
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On September 22 2025 23:00 LightSpectra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2025 22:59 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 22:46 LightSpectra wrote:On September 22 2025 22:42 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 22:06 Luolis wrote:On September 22 2025 19:00 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 18:29 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 22 2025 17:42 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 09:29 WombaT wrote:
ICE are not operating under those conditions. They are meant to enforce the law of the land, in a nation that doesn’t have an active terrorist campaign operating.
Tell it to Charlie Kirk kids, people whose Teslas were burned, business owners whose shops were burned. What does ICE have to do with Charlie Kirk's assassination? ?? I said that ICE agents wear mask to protect their identity, so people wont dox them and threat them and their families. Wombat argument was essentially that there is no ongoing terrorist campaign in US. (implying that they have nothing to worry about) Me mentioning Kirk was pointing out that even though there isnt ongoing terror campaign, bad shit happens. Kirk was killed because "some hatred cannot be negotiated with" Are we sure that there arent any deranged individuals, who will find out on the internet that there is - check notes - "gestapo" member living in the area and decide to take action? Everything that you are saying here is irrelevant. Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable. You cannot do that if their faces are hidden and they have no identification. That is why normal police have names visible, have body cameras and are required to answer questions about who they are. Masked men disappearing people could be anyone. ICE, random criminals, etc. We don't know. That is only increasing unrest in society. If ICE wanna be the police, they should atleast make sure they are recognizable and have body cams so we can see what they are doing. "Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable." - they are. "You cannot do that" - yes you can. Lets be honest here. You can file complain with ICE (police, FBI, court, not sure exactly which one) about their agents. So all your talk about being held accountable, is exact reason why they cover their faces. Walk me through this process, I eat crayons. I catch a local police officer taking bribes. I take a photo and report his name and badge number to his precinct. At that point if they ignore me, I can find a journalist to report it. A masked ICE agent shoves someone I know to be a U.S. citizen into an unmarked van. Who do I report this to, how, and what do I do if they ignore me? "A masked ICE agent shoves someone I know to be a U.S. citizen into an unmarked van. Who do I report this to, how, and what do I do if they ignore me? " the same people you would report it to, if he was unmasked?? Okay, so I reported it and they did nothing. Journalists are also sharing the footage. What's the next step?
Again the same as if he was unmasked.
On September 22 2025 23:04 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2025 22:59 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 22:46 LightSpectra wrote:On September 22 2025 22:42 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 22:06 Luolis wrote:On September 22 2025 19:00 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 18:29 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 22 2025 17:42 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 09:29 WombaT wrote:
ICE are not operating under those conditions. They are meant to enforce the law of the land, in a nation that doesn’t have an active terrorist campaign operating.
Tell it to Charlie Kirk kids, people whose Teslas were burned, business owners whose shops were burned. What does ICE have to do with Charlie Kirk's assassination? ?? I said that ICE agents wear mask to protect their identity, so people wont dox them and threat them and their families. Wombat argument was essentially that there is no ongoing terrorist campaign in US. (implying that they have nothing to worry about) Me mentioning Kirk was pointing out that even though there isnt ongoing terror campaign, bad shit happens. Kirk was killed because "some hatred cannot be negotiated with" Are we sure that there arent any deranged individuals, who will find out on the internet that there is - check notes - "gestapo" member living in the area and decide to take action? Everything that you are saying here is irrelevant. Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable. You cannot do that if their faces are hidden and they have no identification. That is why normal police have names visible, have body cameras and are required to answer questions about who they are. Masked men disappearing people could be anyone. ICE, random criminals, etc. We don't know. That is only increasing unrest in society. If ICE wanna be the police, they should atleast make sure they are recognizable and have body cams so we can see what they are doing. "Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable." - they are. "You cannot do that" - yes you can. Lets be honest here. You can file complain with ICE (police, FBI, court, not sure exactly which one) about their agents. So all your talk about being held accountable, is exact reason why they cover their faces. Walk me through this process, I eat crayons. I catch a local police officer taking bribes. I take a photo and report his name and badge number to his precinct. At that point if they ignore me, I can find a journalist to report it. A masked ICE agent shoves someone I know to be a U.S. citizen into an unmarked van. Who do I report this to, how, and what do I do if they ignore me? "A masked ICE agent shoves someone I know to be a U.S. citizen into an unmarked van. Who do I report this to, how, and what do I do if they ignore me? " the same people you would report it to, if he was unmasked?? On September 22 2025 22:50 Luolis wrote:On September 22 2025 22:42 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 22:06 Luolis wrote:On September 22 2025 19:00 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 18:29 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 22 2025 17:42 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 09:29 WombaT wrote:
ICE are not operating under those conditions. They are meant to enforce the law of the land, in a nation that doesn’t have an active terrorist campaign operating.
Tell it to Charlie Kirk kids, people whose Teslas were burned, business owners whose shops were burned. What does ICE have to do with Charlie Kirk's assassination? ?? I said that ICE agents wear mask to protect their identity, so people wont dox them and threat them and their families. Wombat argument was essentially that there is no ongoing terrorist campaign in US. (implying that they have nothing to worry about) Me mentioning Kirk was pointing out that even though there isnt ongoing terror campaign, bad shit happens. Kirk was killed because "some hatred cannot be negotiated with" Are we sure that there arent any deranged individuals, who will find out on the internet that there is - check notes - "gestapo" member living in the area and decide to take action? Everything that you are saying here is irrelevant. Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable. You cannot do that if their faces are hidden and they have no identification. That is why normal police have names visible, have body cameras and are required to answer questions about who they are. Masked men disappearing people could be anyone. ICE, random criminals, etc. We don't know. That is only increasing unrest in society. If ICE wanna be the police, they should atleast make sure they are recognizable and have body cams so we can see what they are doing. "Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable." - they are. "You cannot do that" - yes you can. Lets be honest here. You can file complain with ICE (police, FBI, court, not sure exactly which one) about their agents. So all your talk about being held accountable, is exact reason why they cover their faces. How naive are you? Police lie all the time. That's why they have body cams because otherwise they would just say "we investigated ourselves and found no wrongdoing". Filing a complaint with nothing to point to except "masked man who said hes ICE kidnapped my husband" is not very apt and full with information if you cannot even point to who the possible ICE member was and if there is no video proof. I actually dont mind body cams, I think thats perfect compromise, but people somehow focus on masks. Seems odd. Police and police adjacent people should be recognizable. This helps prevent them from abusing their power, and helps the average citizen to have trust in them as well as in case of abuses, direct the complaints towards the right policemen. By your logic, policemen should have their faces hidden too and nothing to have them be recognized because therr is anti-police sentiment in the US. I'm sure you realize how ridiculous that idea is.
I just said that body cams are perfectly fine, and yet you keep focusing on masks. Why? Besides doesnt SWAT wear masks too? Among other reasons to protect their identity?
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On September 22 2025 23:25 Razyda wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2025 23:00 LightSpectra wrote:On September 22 2025 22:59 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 22:46 LightSpectra wrote:On September 22 2025 22:42 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 22:06 Luolis wrote:On September 22 2025 19:00 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 18:29 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 22 2025 17:42 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 09:29 WombaT wrote:
ICE are not operating under those conditions. They are meant to enforce the law of the land, in a nation that doesn’t have an active terrorist campaign operating.
Tell it to Charlie Kirk kids, people whose Teslas were burned, business owners whose shops were burned. What does ICE have to do with Charlie Kirk's assassination? ?? I said that ICE agents wear mask to protect their identity, so people wont dox them and threat them and their families. Wombat argument was essentially that there is no ongoing terrorist campaign in US. (implying that they have nothing to worry about) Me mentioning Kirk was pointing out that even though there isnt ongoing terror campaign, bad shit happens. Kirk was killed because "some hatred cannot be negotiated with" Are we sure that there arent any deranged individuals, who will find out on the internet that there is - check notes - "gestapo" member living in the area and decide to take action? Everything that you are saying here is irrelevant. Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable. You cannot do that if their faces are hidden and they have no identification. That is why normal police have names visible, have body cameras and are required to answer questions about who they are. Masked men disappearing people could be anyone. ICE, random criminals, etc. We don't know. That is only increasing unrest in society. If ICE wanna be the police, they should atleast make sure they are recognizable and have body cams so we can see what they are doing. "Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable." - they are. "You cannot do that" - yes you can. Lets be honest here. You can file complain with ICE (police, FBI, court, not sure exactly which one) about their agents. So all your talk about being held accountable, is exact reason why they cover their faces. Walk me through this process, I eat crayons. I catch a local police officer taking bribes. I take a photo and report his name and badge number to his precinct. At that point if they ignore me, I can find a journalist to report it. A masked ICE agent shoves someone I know to be a U.S. citizen into an unmarked van. Who do I report this to, how, and what do I do if they ignore me? "A masked ICE agent shoves someone I know to be a U.S. citizen into an unmarked van. Who do I report this to, how, and what do I do if they ignore me? " the same people you would report it to, if he was unmasked?? Okay, so I reported it and they did nothing. Journalists are also sharing the footage. What's the next step? Again the same as if he was unmasked. Show nested quote +On September 22 2025 23:04 Luolis wrote:On September 22 2025 22:59 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 22:46 LightSpectra wrote:On September 22 2025 22:42 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 22:06 Luolis wrote:On September 22 2025 19:00 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 18:29 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 22 2025 17:42 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 09:29 WombaT wrote:
ICE are not operating under those conditions. They are meant to enforce the law of the land, in a nation that doesn’t have an active terrorist campaign operating.
Tell it to Charlie Kirk kids, people whose Teslas were burned, business owners whose shops were burned. What does ICE have to do with Charlie Kirk's assassination? ?? I said that ICE agents wear mask to protect their identity, so people wont dox them and threat them and their families. Wombat argument was essentially that there is no ongoing terrorist campaign in US. (implying that they have nothing to worry about) Me mentioning Kirk was pointing out that even though there isnt ongoing terror campaign, bad shit happens. Kirk was killed because "some hatred cannot be negotiated with" Are we sure that there arent any deranged individuals, who will find out on the internet that there is - check notes - "gestapo" member living in the area and decide to take action? Everything that you are saying here is irrelevant. Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable. You cannot do that if their faces are hidden and they have no identification. That is why normal police have names visible, have body cameras and are required to answer questions about who they are. Masked men disappearing people could be anyone. ICE, random criminals, etc. We don't know. That is only increasing unrest in society. If ICE wanna be the police, they should atleast make sure they are recognizable and have body cams so we can see what they are doing. "Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable." - they are. "You cannot do that" - yes you can. Lets be honest here. You can file complain with ICE (police, FBI, court, not sure exactly which one) about their agents. So all your talk about being held accountable, is exact reason why they cover their faces. Walk me through this process, I eat crayons. I catch a local police officer taking bribes. I take a photo and report his name and badge number to his precinct. At that point if they ignore me, I can find a journalist to report it. A masked ICE agent shoves someone I know to be a U.S. citizen into an unmarked van. Who do I report this to, how, and what do I do if they ignore me? "A masked ICE agent shoves someone I know to be a U.S. citizen into an unmarked van. Who do I report this to, how, and what do I do if they ignore me? " the same people you would report it to, if he was unmasked?? On September 22 2025 22:50 Luolis wrote:On September 22 2025 22:42 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 22:06 Luolis wrote:On September 22 2025 19:00 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 18:29 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 22 2025 17:42 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 09:29 WombaT wrote:
ICE are not operating under those conditions. They are meant to enforce the law of the land, in a nation that doesn’t have an active terrorist campaign operating.
Tell it to Charlie Kirk kids, people whose Teslas were burned, business owners whose shops were burned. What does ICE have to do with Charlie Kirk's assassination? ?? I said that ICE agents wear mask to protect their identity, so people wont dox them and threat them and their families. Wombat argument was essentially that there is no ongoing terrorist campaign in US. (implying that they have nothing to worry about) Me mentioning Kirk was pointing out that even though there isnt ongoing terror campaign, bad shit happens. Kirk was killed because "some hatred cannot be negotiated with" Are we sure that there arent any deranged individuals, who will find out on the internet that there is - check notes - "gestapo" member living in the area and decide to take action? Everything that you are saying here is irrelevant. Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable. You cannot do that if their faces are hidden and they have no identification. That is why normal police have names visible, have body cameras and are required to answer questions about who they are. Masked men disappearing people could be anyone. ICE, random criminals, etc. We don't know. That is only increasing unrest in society. If ICE wanna be the police, they should atleast make sure they are recognizable and have body cams so we can see what they are doing. "Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable." - they are. "You cannot do that" - yes you can. Lets be honest here. You can file complain with ICE (police, FBI, court, not sure exactly which one) about their agents. So all your talk about being held accountable, is exact reason why they cover their faces. How naive are you? Police lie all the time. That's why they have body cams because otherwise they would just say "we investigated ourselves and found no wrongdoing". Filing a complaint with nothing to point to except "masked man who said hes ICE kidnapped my husband" is not very apt and full with information if you cannot even point to who the possible ICE member was and if there is no video proof. I actually dont mind body cams, I think thats perfect compromise, but people somehow focus on masks. Seems odd. Police and police adjacent people should be recognizable. This helps prevent them from abusing their power, and helps the average citizen to have trust in them as well as in case of abuses, direct the complaints towards the right policemen. By your logic, policemen should have their faces hidden too and nothing to have them be recognized because therr is anti-police sentiment in the US. I'm sure you realize how ridiculous that idea is. I just said that body cams are perfectly fine, and yet you keep focusing on masks. Why? Besides doesnt SWAT wear masks too? Among other reasons to protect their identity?
Police and police adjacent people should be recognizable. This helps prevent them from abusing their power, and helps the average citizen to have trust in them as well as in case of abuses, direct the complaints towards the right policemen.
By your logic, policemen should have their faces hidden too and nothing to have them be recognized because therr is anti-police sentiment in the US. I'm sure you realize how ridiculous that idea is.
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I think MAGA/PJ2025 dreams about the idea that hispanics could fight ICE openly with guns if pressed hard enough.
So far all they got was mostly people holding signs and some burning cars in LA that were shot from every angle possible, with the rest of the city barely noticing anything might going on.
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On September 22 2025 23:25 Razyda wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2025 23:00 LightSpectra wrote:On September 22 2025 22:59 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 22:46 LightSpectra wrote:On September 22 2025 22:42 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 22:06 Luolis wrote:On September 22 2025 19:00 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 18:29 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 22 2025 17:42 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 09:29 WombaT wrote:
ICE are not operating under those conditions. They are meant to enforce the law of the land, in a nation that doesn’t have an active terrorist campaign operating.
Tell it to Charlie Kirk kids, people whose Teslas were burned, business owners whose shops were burned. What does ICE have to do with Charlie Kirk's assassination? ?? I said that ICE agents wear mask to protect their identity, so people wont dox them and threat them and their families. Wombat argument was essentially that there is no ongoing terrorist campaign in US. (implying that they have nothing to worry about) Me mentioning Kirk was pointing out that even though there isnt ongoing terror campaign, bad shit happens. Kirk was killed because "some hatred cannot be negotiated with" Are we sure that there arent any deranged individuals, who will find out on the internet that there is - check notes - "gestapo" member living in the area and decide to take action? Everything that you are saying here is irrelevant. Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable. You cannot do that if their faces are hidden and they have no identification. That is why normal police have names visible, have body cameras and are required to answer questions about who they are. Masked men disappearing people could be anyone. ICE, random criminals, etc. We don't know. That is only increasing unrest in society. If ICE wanna be the police, they should atleast make sure they are recognizable and have body cams so we can see what they are doing. "Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable." - they are. "You cannot do that" - yes you can. Lets be honest here. You can file complain with ICE (police, FBI, court, not sure exactly which one) about their agents. So all your talk about being held accountable, is exact reason why they cover their faces. Walk me through this process, I eat crayons. I catch a local police officer taking bribes. I take a photo and report his name and badge number to his precinct. At that point if they ignore me, I can find a journalist to report it. A masked ICE agent shoves someone I know to be a U.S. citizen into an unmarked van. Who do I report this to, how, and what do I do if they ignore me? "A masked ICE agent shoves someone I know to be a U.S. citizen into an unmarked van. Who do I report this to, how, and what do I do if they ignore me? " the same people you would report it to, if he was unmasked?? Okay, so I reported it and they did nothing. Journalists are also sharing the footage. What's the next step? Again the same as if he was unmasked.
We're at the "vote/protest out the incumbent political party because they won't do anything to stop unaccountable secret police" stage, then. So I assume you'll be voting for Democrats to retake Congress in the upcoming midterms?
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Northern Ireland26086 Posts
On September 22 2025 23:05 EnDeR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2025 22:39 Zambrah wrote:The consistent framing of democrats as 'lesser evil' is already a prejudgement. I had a lot of things I liked in Clinton's, Biden's and Harris' platforms. I didn't like everything, but I liked a lot. I'm an adult human being, I know you only achieve things through compromise -- one-sided impositions just lead to a yo-yo where each administration just undoes whatever the last one did. Okay, but this is untrue, we've watched the Republicans basically one-side their way through the systems of power in the US, the bolded statement here is Democrat centrist tripe that tries to make it seem like the only reasonable view is a moderate centrist view. The only compromising thats ever done in the US is when the Democrats compromise their supposed values to support something the Republicans want. Which is why the system is breaking down. But this is not a 'lesser of two evils' situation and more of a 'one party is serious about governing', the other just wants to burn it all down. The framing isn't bad dems bad, it's more, holy moly, what's going on with the GOP?
There is also that.
We got bigger picture stuff too. We’ve got a more general cut on foreign aid, bilateral cooperation and institutions under attack. A ‘skepticism’ on science that’s migrated from climate change all the way to bloomin vaccines. What happens to healthcare down the line? The prospects of a cessation of Ukrainian hostilities.
I think the Democrats are awful on Gaza, and if that’s a red line for some, I totally respect that stance as well.
But I think there’s a pretty plausible argument that rather a lot of people will die as a result of these many other examples of actual divergence between the current GOP and the Dems.
Even if any progress may still have been insufficient with the Dems in power (likely), this will now be the second 4 year period of the US where one of the king emitters has completely withdrawn from the issue.
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Northern Ireland26086 Posts
On September 22 2025 23:25 Razyda wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2025 23:00 LightSpectra wrote:On September 22 2025 22:59 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 22:46 LightSpectra wrote:On September 22 2025 22:42 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 22:06 Luolis wrote:On September 22 2025 19:00 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 18:29 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 22 2025 17:42 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 09:29 WombaT wrote:
ICE are not operating under those conditions. They are meant to enforce the law of the land, in a nation that doesn’t have an active terrorist campaign operating.
Tell it to Charlie Kirk kids, people whose Teslas were burned, business owners whose shops were burned. What does ICE have to do with Charlie Kirk's assassination? ?? I said that ICE agents wear mask to protect their identity, so people wont dox them and threat them and their families. Wombat argument was essentially that there is no ongoing terrorist campaign in US. (implying that they have nothing to worry about) Me mentioning Kirk was pointing out that even though there isnt ongoing terror campaign, bad shit happens. Kirk was killed because "some hatred cannot be negotiated with" Are we sure that there arent any deranged individuals, who will find out on the internet that there is - check notes - "gestapo" member living in the area and decide to take action? Everything that you are saying here is irrelevant. Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable. You cannot do that if their faces are hidden and they have no identification. That is why normal police have names visible, have body cameras and are required to answer questions about who they are. Masked men disappearing people could be anyone. ICE, random criminals, etc. We don't know. That is only increasing unrest in society. If ICE wanna be the police, they should atleast make sure they are recognizable and have body cams so we can see what they are doing. "Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable." - they are. "You cannot do that" - yes you can. Lets be honest here. You can file complain with ICE (police, FBI, court, not sure exactly which one) about their agents. So all your talk about being held accountable, is exact reason why they cover their faces. Walk me through this process, I eat crayons. I catch a local police officer taking bribes. I take a photo and report his name and badge number to his precinct. At that point if they ignore me, I can find a journalist to report it. A masked ICE agent shoves someone I know to be a U.S. citizen into an unmarked van. Who do I report this to, how, and what do I do if they ignore me? "A masked ICE agent shoves someone I know to be a U.S. citizen into an unmarked van. Who do I report this to, how, and what do I do if they ignore me? " the same people you would report it to, if he was unmasked?? Okay, so I reported it and they did nothing. Journalists are also sharing the footage. What's the next step? Again the same as if he was unmasked. Show nested quote +On September 22 2025 23:04 Luolis wrote:On September 22 2025 22:59 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 22:46 LightSpectra wrote:On September 22 2025 22:42 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 22:06 Luolis wrote:On September 22 2025 19:00 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 18:29 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 22 2025 17:42 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 09:29 WombaT wrote:
ICE are not operating under those conditions. They are meant to enforce the law of the land, in a nation that doesn’t have an active terrorist campaign operating.
Tell it to Charlie Kirk kids, people whose Teslas were burned, business owners whose shops were burned. What does ICE have to do with Charlie Kirk's assassination? ?? I said that ICE agents wear mask to protect their identity, so people wont dox them and threat them and their families. Wombat argument was essentially that there is no ongoing terrorist campaign in US. (implying that they have nothing to worry about) Me mentioning Kirk was pointing out that even though there isnt ongoing terror campaign, bad shit happens. Kirk was killed because "some hatred cannot be negotiated with" Are we sure that there arent any deranged individuals, who will find out on the internet that there is - check notes - "gestapo" member living in the area and decide to take action? Everything that you are saying here is irrelevant. Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable. You cannot do that if their faces are hidden and they have no identification. That is why normal police have names visible, have body cameras and are required to answer questions about who they are. Masked men disappearing people could be anyone. ICE, random criminals, etc. We don't know. That is only increasing unrest in society. If ICE wanna be the police, they should atleast make sure they are recognizable and have body cams so we can see what they are doing. "Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable." - they are. "You cannot do that" - yes you can. Lets be honest here. You can file complain with ICE (police, FBI, court, not sure exactly which one) about their agents. So all your talk about being held accountable, is exact reason why they cover their faces. Walk me through this process, I eat crayons. I catch a local police officer taking bribes. I take a photo and report his name and badge number to his precinct. At that point if they ignore me, I can find a journalist to report it. A masked ICE agent shoves someone I know to be a U.S. citizen into an unmarked van. Who do I report this to, how, and what do I do if they ignore me? "A masked ICE agent shoves someone I know to be a U.S. citizen into an unmarked van. Who do I report this to, how, and what do I do if they ignore me? " the same people you would report it to, if he was unmasked?? On September 22 2025 22:50 Luolis wrote:On September 22 2025 22:42 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 22:06 Luolis wrote:On September 22 2025 19:00 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 18:29 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 22 2025 17:42 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 09:29 WombaT wrote:
ICE are not operating under those conditions. They are meant to enforce the law of the land, in a nation that doesn’t have an active terrorist campaign operating.
Tell it to Charlie Kirk kids, people whose Teslas were burned, business owners whose shops were burned. What does ICE have to do with Charlie Kirk's assassination? ?? I said that ICE agents wear mask to protect their identity, so people wont dox them and threat them and their families. Wombat argument was essentially that there is no ongoing terrorist campaign in US. (implying that they have nothing to worry about) Me mentioning Kirk was pointing out that even though there isnt ongoing terror campaign, bad shit happens. Kirk was killed because "some hatred cannot be negotiated with" Are we sure that there arent any deranged individuals, who will find out on the internet that there is - check notes - "gestapo" member living in the area and decide to take action? Everything that you are saying here is irrelevant. Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable. You cannot do that if their faces are hidden and they have no identification. That is why normal police have names visible, have body cameras and are required to answer questions about who they are. Masked men disappearing people could be anyone. ICE, random criminals, etc. We don't know. That is only increasing unrest in society. If ICE wanna be the police, they should atleast make sure they are recognizable and have body cams so we can see what they are doing. "Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable." - they are. "You cannot do that" - yes you can. Lets be honest here. You can file complain with ICE (police, FBI, court, not sure exactly which one) about their agents. So all your talk about being held accountable, is exact reason why they cover their faces. How naive are you? Police lie all the time. That's why they have body cams because otherwise they would just say "we investigated ourselves and found no wrongdoing". Filing a complaint with nothing to point to except "masked man who said hes ICE kidnapped my husband" is not very apt and full with information if you cannot even point to who the possible ICE member was and if there is no video proof. I actually dont mind body cams, I think thats perfect compromise, but people somehow focus on masks. Seems odd. Police and police adjacent people should be recognizable. This helps prevent them from abusing their power, and helps the average citizen to have trust in them as well as in case of abuses, direct the complaints towards the right policemen. By your logic, policemen should have their faces hidden too and nothing to have them be recognized because therr is anti-police sentiment in the US. I'm sure you realize how ridiculous that idea is. I just said that body cams are perfectly fine, and yet you keep focusing on masks. Why? Besides doesnt SWAT wear masks too? Among other reasons to protect their identity?
SWAT have uniforms. SWAT have lots of fancy, expensive gear. To my knowledge SWAT have oversight in how they are deployed, and those deployments are usually explicitly dangerous scenarios.
There’s some hostage scenario, or a school shooter and SWAT show up, with all their fancy gear, there isn’t really a question who they are, or why they are there.
You don’t have people running around pretending to be SWAT and tackling life-threatening scenarios.
ICE are running around detaining people without warrants, and without obvious means of identification at times. It is that combination that is the problem.
As I said, possibly multiple times, I don’t have an innate issue with some level of hiding identity, in some scenarios.
If you’re serving a warrant and busting a high-level drug cartel member, those people are dangerous. It is prudent to protect people in such operations.
It’s very different when you’re hanging around, detaining folks without ‘probable’ cause outside of accents or skin colour or whatever
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On September 22 2025 23:15 WombaT wrote:
Yeah, that placed them under more risk, as would ICE agents be, but it’s worth the tradeoff overall, least for myself.
Thank you for at least admitting that it would put them at risk.
On September 22 2025 23:15 WombaT wrote:
People have also correctly pointed out other negative scenarios that can spawn from this, such as criminals being able to impersonate ICE agents.
People were impersonating law enforcement since forever, thats why impersonating a police officer is an offence, lets not pretend that this is some new, ICE wearing mask, phaenomenon.
On September 22 2025 23:56 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2025 23:25 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 23:00 LightSpectra wrote:On September 22 2025 22:59 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 22:46 LightSpectra wrote:On September 22 2025 22:42 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 22:06 Luolis wrote:On September 22 2025 19:00 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 18:29 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 22 2025 17:42 Razyda wrote:
[quote]
Tell it to Charlie Kirk kids, people whose Teslas were burned, business owners whose shops were burned. What does ICE have to do with Charlie Kirk's assassination? ?? I said that ICE agents wear mask to protect their identity, so people wont dox them and threat them and their families. Wombat argument was essentially that there is no ongoing terrorist campaign in US. (implying that they have nothing to worry about) Me mentioning Kirk was pointing out that even though there isnt ongoing terror campaign, bad shit happens. Kirk was killed because "some hatred cannot be negotiated with" Are we sure that there arent any deranged individuals, who will find out on the internet that there is - check notes - "gestapo" member living in the area and decide to take action? Everything that you are saying here is irrelevant. Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable. You cannot do that if their faces are hidden and they have no identification. That is why normal police have names visible, have body cameras and are required to answer questions about who they are. Masked men disappearing people could be anyone. ICE, random criminals, etc. We don't know. That is only increasing unrest in society. If ICE wanna be the police, they should atleast make sure they are recognizable and have body cams so we can see what they are doing. "Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable." - they are. "You cannot do that" - yes you can. Lets be honest here. You can file complain with ICE (police, FBI, court, not sure exactly which one) about their agents. So all your talk about being held accountable, is exact reason why they cover their faces. Walk me through this process, I eat crayons. I catch a local police officer taking bribes. I take a photo and report his name and badge number to his precinct. At that point if they ignore me, I can find a journalist to report it. A masked ICE agent shoves someone I know to be a U.S. citizen into an unmarked van. Who do I report this to, how, and what do I do if they ignore me? "A masked ICE agent shoves someone I know to be a U.S. citizen into an unmarked van. Who do I report this to, how, and what do I do if they ignore me? " the same people you would report it to, if he was unmasked?? Okay, so I reported it and they did nothing. Journalists are also sharing the footage. What's the next step? Again the same as if he was unmasked. On September 22 2025 23:04 Luolis wrote:On September 22 2025 22:59 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 22:46 LightSpectra wrote:On September 22 2025 22:42 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 22:06 Luolis wrote:On September 22 2025 19:00 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 18:29 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 22 2025 17:42 Razyda wrote:
[quote]
Tell it to Charlie Kirk kids, people whose Teslas were burned, business owners whose shops were burned. What does ICE have to do with Charlie Kirk's assassination? ?? I said that ICE agents wear mask to protect their identity, so people wont dox them and threat them and their families. Wombat argument was essentially that there is no ongoing terrorist campaign in US. (implying that they have nothing to worry about) Me mentioning Kirk was pointing out that even though there isnt ongoing terror campaign, bad shit happens. Kirk was killed because "some hatred cannot be negotiated with" Are we sure that there arent any deranged individuals, who will find out on the internet that there is - check notes - "gestapo" member living in the area and decide to take action? Everything that you are saying here is irrelevant. Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable. You cannot do that if their faces are hidden and they have no identification. That is why normal police have names visible, have body cameras and are required to answer questions about who they are. Masked men disappearing people could be anyone. ICE, random criminals, etc. We don't know. That is only increasing unrest in society. If ICE wanna be the police, they should atleast make sure they are recognizable and have body cams so we can see what they are doing. "Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable." - they are. "You cannot do that" - yes you can. Lets be honest here. You can file complain with ICE (police, FBI, court, not sure exactly which one) about their agents. So all your talk about being held accountable, is exact reason why they cover their faces. Walk me through this process, I eat crayons. I catch a local police officer taking bribes. I take a photo and report his name and badge number to his precinct. At that point if they ignore me, I can find a journalist to report it. A masked ICE agent shoves someone I know to be a U.S. citizen into an unmarked van. Who do I report this to, how, and what do I do if they ignore me? "A masked ICE agent shoves someone I know to be a U.S. citizen into an unmarked van. Who do I report this to, how, and what do I do if they ignore me? " the same people you would report it to, if he was unmasked?? On September 22 2025 22:50 Luolis wrote:On September 22 2025 22:42 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 22:06 Luolis wrote:On September 22 2025 19:00 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 18:29 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 22 2025 17:42 Razyda wrote:
[quote]
Tell it to Charlie Kirk kids, people whose Teslas were burned, business owners whose shops were burned. What does ICE have to do with Charlie Kirk's assassination? ?? I said that ICE agents wear mask to protect their identity, so people wont dox them and threat them and their families. Wombat argument was essentially that there is no ongoing terrorist campaign in US. (implying that they have nothing to worry about) Me mentioning Kirk was pointing out that even though there isnt ongoing terror campaign, bad shit happens. Kirk was killed because "some hatred cannot be negotiated with" Are we sure that there arent any deranged individuals, who will find out on the internet that there is - check notes - "gestapo" member living in the area and decide to take action? Everything that you are saying here is irrelevant. Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable. You cannot do that if their faces are hidden and they have no identification. That is why normal police have names visible, have body cameras and are required to answer questions about who they are. Masked men disappearing people could be anyone. ICE, random criminals, etc. We don't know. That is only increasing unrest in society. If ICE wanna be the police, they should atleast make sure they are recognizable and have body cams so we can see what they are doing. "Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable." - they are. "You cannot do that" - yes you can. Lets be honest here. You can file complain with ICE (police, FBI, court, not sure exactly which one) about their agents. So all your talk about being held accountable, is exact reason why they cover their faces. How naive are you? Police lie all the time. That's why they have body cams because otherwise they would just say "we investigated ourselves and found no wrongdoing". Filing a complaint with nothing to point to except "masked man who said hes ICE kidnapped my husband" is not very apt and full with information if you cannot even point to who the possible ICE member was and if there is no video proof. I actually dont mind body cams, I think thats perfect compromise, but people somehow focus on masks. Seems odd. Police and police adjacent people should be recognizable. This helps prevent them from abusing their power, and helps the average citizen to have trust in them as well as in case of abuses, direct the complaints towards the right policemen. By your logic, policemen should have their faces hidden too and nothing to have them be recognized because therr is anti-police sentiment in the US. I'm sure you realize how ridiculous that idea is. I just said that body cams are perfectly fine, and yet you keep focusing on masks. Why? Besides doesnt SWAT wear masks too? Among other reasons to protect their identity? SWAT have uniforms. SWAT have lots of fancy, expensive gear. To my knowledge SWAT have oversight in how they are deployed, and those deployments are usually explicitly dangerous scenarios. There’s some hostage scenario, or a school shooter and SWAT show up, with all their fancy gear, there isn’t really a question who they are, or why they are there. You don’t have people running around pretending to be SWAT and tackling life-threatening scenarios. ICE are running around detaining people without warrants, and without obvious means of identification at times. It is that combination that is the problem. As I said, possibly multiple times, I don’t have an innate issue with some level of hiding identity, in some scenarios. If you’re serving a warrant and busting a high-level drug cartel member, those people are dangerous. It is prudent to protect people in such operations. It’s very different when you’re hanging around, detaining folks without ‘probable’ cause outside of accents or skin colour or whatever
I believe ICE also has oversight in how it is deployed, it is not like they spawning randomly from mysterious gates. (although it would be cool as f...k)
Isn't ICE among others also deporting cartel members? Also in current US climate I am not entirely sure that cartels would be their biggest threat.
Edit: brackets
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Northern Ireland26086 Posts
On September 23 2025 00:25 Razyda wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2025 23:15 WombaT wrote:
Yeah, that placed them under more risk, as would ICE agents be, but it’s worth the tradeoff overall, least for myself. Thank you for at least admitting that it would put them at risk. Show nested quote +On September 22 2025 23:15 WombaT wrote:
People have also correctly pointed out other negative scenarios that can spawn from this, such as criminals being able to impersonate ICE agents.
People were impersonating law enforcement since forever, thats why impersonating a police officer is an offence, lets not pretend that this is some new, ICE wearing mask, phaenomenon. Show nested quote +On September 22 2025 23:56 WombaT wrote:On September 22 2025 23:25 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 23:00 LightSpectra wrote:On September 22 2025 22:59 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 22:46 LightSpectra wrote:On September 22 2025 22:42 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 22:06 Luolis wrote:On September 22 2025 19:00 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 18:29 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
What does ICE have to do with Charlie Kirk's assassination? ?? I said that ICE agents wear mask to protect their identity, so people wont dox them and threat them and their families. Wombat argument was essentially that there is no ongoing terrorist campaign in US. (implying that they have nothing to worry about) Me mentioning Kirk was pointing out that even though there isnt ongoing terror campaign, bad shit happens. Kirk was killed because "some hatred cannot be negotiated with" Are we sure that there arent any deranged individuals, who will find out on the internet that there is - check notes - "gestapo" member living in the area and decide to take action? Everything that you are saying here is irrelevant. Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable. You cannot do that if their faces are hidden and they have no identification. That is why normal police have names visible, have body cameras and are required to answer questions about who they are. Masked men disappearing people could be anyone. ICE, random criminals, etc. We don't know. That is only increasing unrest in society. If ICE wanna be the police, they should atleast make sure they are recognizable and have body cams so we can see what they are doing. "Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable." - they are. "You cannot do that" - yes you can. Lets be honest here. You can file complain with ICE (police, FBI, court, not sure exactly which one) about their agents. So all your talk about being held accountable, is exact reason why they cover their faces. Walk me through this process, I eat crayons. I catch a local police officer taking bribes. I take a photo and report his name and badge number to his precinct. At that point if they ignore me, I can find a journalist to report it. A masked ICE agent shoves someone I know to be a U.S. citizen into an unmarked van. Who do I report this to, how, and what do I do if they ignore me? "A masked ICE agent shoves someone I know to be a U.S. citizen into an unmarked van. Who do I report this to, how, and what do I do if they ignore me? " the same people you would report it to, if he was unmasked?? Okay, so I reported it and they did nothing. Journalists are also sharing the footage. What's the next step? Again the same as if he was unmasked. On September 22 2025 23:04 Luolis wrote:On September 22 2025 22:59 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 22:46 LightSpectra wrote:On September 22 2025 22:42 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 22:06 Luolis wrote:On September 22 2025 19:00 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 18:29 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
What does ICE have to do with Charlie Kirk's assassination? ?? I said that ICE agents wear mask to protect their identity, so people wont dox them and threat them and their families. Wombat argument was essentially that there is no ongoing terrorist campaign in US. (implying that they have nothing to worry about) Me mentioning Kirk was pointing out that even though there isnt ongoing terror campaign, bad shit happens. Kirk was killed because "some hatred cannot be negotiated with" Are we sure that there arent any deranged individuals, who will find out on the internet that there is - check notes - "gestapo" member living in the area and decide to take action? Everything that you are saying here is irrelevant. Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable. You cannot do that if their faces are hidden and they have no identification. That is why normal police have names visible, have body cameras and are required to answer questions about who they are. Masked men disappearing people could be anyone. ICE, random criminals, etc. We don't know. That is only increasing unrest in society. If ICE wanna be the police, they should atleast make sure they are recognizable and have body cams so we can see what they are doing. "Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable." - they are. "You cannot do that" - yes you can. Lets be honest here. You can file complain with ICE (police, FBI, court, not sure exactly which one) about their agents. So all your talk about being held accountable, is exact reason why they cover their faces. Walk me through this process, I eat crayons. I catch a local police officer taking bribes. I take a photo and report his name and badge number to his precinct. At that point if they ignore me, I can find a journalist to report it. A masked ICE agent shoves someone I know to be a U.S. citizen into an unmarked van. Who do I report this to, how, and what do I do if they ignore me? "A masked ICE agent shoves someone I know to be a U.S. citizen into an unmarked van. Who do I report this to, how, and what do I do if they ignore me? " the same people you would report it to, if he was unmasked?? On September 22 2025 22:50 Luolis wrote:On September 22 2025 22:42 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 22:06 Luolis wrote:On September 22 2025 19:00 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 18:29 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
What does ICE have to do with Charlie Kirk's assassination? ?? I said that ICE agents wear mask to protect their identity, so people wont dox them and threat them and their families. Wombat argument was essentially that there is no ongoing terrorist campaign in US. (implying that they have nothing to worry about) Me mentioning Kirk was pointing out that even though there isnt ongoing terror campaign, bad shit happens. Kirk was killed because "some hatred cannot be negotiated with" Are we sure that there arent any deranged individuals, who will find out on the internet that there is - check notes - "gestapo" member living in the area and decide to take action? Everything that you are saying here is irrelevant. Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable. You cannot do that if their faces are hidden and they have no identification. That is why normal police have names visible, have body cameras and are required to answer questions about who they are. Masked men disappearing people could be anyone. ICE, random criminals, etc. We don't know. That is only increasing unrest in society. If ICE wanna be the police, they should atleast make sure they are recognizable and have body cams so we can see what they are doing. "Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable." - they are. "You cannot do that" - yes you can. Lets be honest here. You can file complain with ICE (police, FBI, court, not sure exactly which one) about their agents. So all your talk about being held accountable, is exact reason why they cover their faces. How naive are you? Police lie all the time. That's why they have body cams because otherwise they would just say "we investigated ourselves and found no wrongdoing". Filing a complaint with nothing to point to except "masked man who said hes ICE kidnapped my husband" is not very apt and full with information if you cannot even point to who the possible ICE member was and if there is no video proof. I actually dont mind body cams, I think thats perfect compromise, but people somehow focus on masks. Seems odd. Police and police adjacent people should be recognizable. This helps prevent them from abusing their power, and helps the average citizen to have trust in them as well as in case of abuses, direct the complaints towards the right policemen. By your logic, policemen should have their faces hidden too and nothing to have them be recognized because therr is anti-police sentiment in the US. I'm sure you realize how ridiculous that idea is. I just said that body cams are perfectly fine, and yet you keep focusing on masks. Why? Besides doesnt SWAT wear masks too? Among other reasons to protect their identity? SWAT have uniforms. SWAT have lots of fancy, expensive gear. To my knowledge SWAT have oversight in how they are deployed, and those deployments are usually explicitly dangerous scenarios. There’s some hostage scenario, or a school shooter and SWAT show up, with all their fancy gear, there isn’t really a question who they are, or why they are there. You don’t have people running around pretending to be SWAT and tackling life-threatening scenarios. ICE are running around detaining people without warrants, and without obvious means of identification at times. It is that combination that is the problem. As I said, possibly multiple times, I don’t have an innate issue with some level of hiding identity, in some scenarios. If you’re serving a warrant and busting a high-level drug cartel member, those people are dangerous. It is prudent to protect people in such operations. It’s very different when you’re hanging around, detaining folks without ‘probable’ cause outside of accents or skin colour or whatever I believe ICE also has oversight in how it is deployed, it is not like they spawning randomly from mysterious gates. (although it would be cool as f...k) Isn't ICE among others also deporting cartel members? Also in current US climate I am not entirely sure that cartels would be their biggest threat. Edit: brackets
Risks, but overstated risks. Antifa aren’t running around killing ICE agents or whatever.
This seems such an odd hill to die on.
Do you seriously mean to tell me you wouldn’t have had an issue with an agency running around in plainclothes and masks, stopping and detaining anyone with a Polish accent when you arrived in the UK?
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On September 23 2025 00:08 LightSpectra wrote:Trump administration to link Tylenol use to risk of autismAcetaminophen is one of the few safe painkillers to take during pregnancy. If this isn't simply another corporate bribe shakedown, there's a good chance the Trump admin is doing this specifically to make women suffer.
Trump/RFK/MAGA trying to link Tylenol/Acetaminophen to autism is not only 100% medically false, but it's also incredibly dangerous. This could very well be the first step to making Tylenol/Acetaminophen less available - despite it being over-the-counter - which could hurt not only pregnant women but anyone who needs to use it.
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On September 23 2025 00:40 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2025 00:25 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 23:15 WombaT wrote:
Yeah, that placed them under more risk, as would ICE agents be, but it’s worth the tradeoff overall, least for myself. Thank you for at least admitting that it would put them at risk. On September 22 2025 23:15 WombaT wrote:
People have also correctly pointed out other negative scenarios that can spawn from this, such as criminals being able to impersonate ICE agents.
People were impersonating law enforcement since forever, thats why impersonating a police officer is an offence, lets not pretend that this is some new, ICE wearing mask, phaenomenon. On September 22 2025 23:56 WombaT wrote:On September 22 2025 23:25 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 23:00 LightSpectra wrote:On September 22 2025 22:59 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 22:46 LightSpectra wrote:On September 22 2025 22:42 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 22:06 Luolis wrote:On September 22 2025 19:00 Razyda wrote:
[quote]
??
I said that ICE agents wear mask to protect their identity, so people wont dox them and threat them and their families.
Wombat argument was essentially that there is no ongoing terrorist campaign in US. (implying that they have nothing to worry about)
Me mentioning Kirk was pointing out that even though there isnt ongoing terror campaign, bad shit happens.
Kirk was killed because "some hatred cannot be negotiated with"
Are we sure that there arent any deranged individuals, who will find out on the internet that there is - check notes - "gestapo" member living in the area and decide to take action? Everything that you are saying here is irrelevant. Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable. You cannot do that if their faces are hidden and they have no identification. That is why normal police have names visible, have body cameras and are required to answer questions about who they are. Masked men disappearing people could be anyone. ICE, random criminals, etc. We don't know. That is only increasing unrest in society. If ICE wanna be the police, they should atleast make sure they are recognizable and have body cams so we can see what they are doing. "Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable." - they are. "You cannot do that" - yes you can. Lets be honest here. You can file complain with ICE (police, FBI, court, not sure exactly which one) about their agents. So all your talk about being held accountable, is exact reason why they cover their faces. Walk me through this process, I eat crayons. I catch a local police officer taking bribes. I take a photo and report his name and badge number to his precinct. At that point if they ignore me, I can find a journalist to report it. A masked ICE agent shoves someone I know to be a U.S. citizen into an unmarked van. Who do I report this to, how, and what do I do if they ignore me? "A masked ICE agent shoves someone I know to be a U.S. citizen into an unmarked van. Who do I report this to, how, and what do I do if they ignore me? " the same people you would report it to, if he was unmasked?? Okay, so I reported it and they did nothing. Journalists are also sharing the footage. What's the next step? Again the same as if he was unmasked. On September 22 2025 23:04 Luolis wrote:On September 22 2025 22:59 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 22:46 LightSpectra wrote:On September 22 2025 22:42 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 22:06 Luolis wrote:On September 22 2025 19:00 Razyda wrote:
[quote]
??
I said that ICE agents wear mask to protect their identity, so people wont dox them and threat them and their families.
Wombat argument was essentially that there is no ongoing terrorist campaign in US. (implying that they have nothing to worry about)
Me mentioning Kirk was pointing out that even though there isnt ongoing terror campaign, bad shit happens.
Kirk was killed because "some hatred cannot be negotiated with"
Are we sure that there arent any deranged individuals, who will find out on the internet that there is - check notes - "gestapo" member living in the area and decide to take action? Everything that you are saying here is irrelevant. Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable. You cannot do that if their faces are hidden and they have no identification. That is why normal police have names visible, have body cameras and are required to answer questions about who they are. Masked men disappearing people could be anyone. ICE, random criminals, etc. We don't know. That is only increasing unrest in society. If ICE wanna be the police, they should atleast make sure they are recognizable and have body cams so we can see what they are doing. "Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable." - they are. "You cannot do that" - yes you can. Lets be honest here. You can file complain with ICE (police, FBI, court, not sure exactly which one) about their agents. So all your talk about being held accountable, is exact reason why they cover their faces. Walk me through this process, I eat crayons. I catch a local police officer taking bribes. I take a photo and report his name and badge number to his precinct. At that point if they ignore me, I can find a journalist to report it. A masked ICE agent shoves someone I know to be a U.S. citizen into an unmarked van. Who do I report this to, how, and what do I do if they ignore me? "A masked ICE agent shoves someone I know to be a U.S. citizen into an unmarked van. Who do I report this to, how, and what do I do if they ignore me? " the same people you would report it to, if he was unmasked?? On September 22 2025 22:50 Luolis wrote:On September 22 2025 22:42 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 22:06 Luolis wrote:On September 22 2025 19:00 Razyda wrote:
[quote]
??
I said that ICE agents wear mask to protect their identity, so people wont dox them and threat them and their families.
Wombat argument was essentially that there is no ongoing terrorist campaign in US. (implying that they have nothing to worry about)
Me mentioning Kirk was pointing out that even though there isnt ongoing terror campaign, bad shit happens.
Kirk was killed because "some hatred cannot be negotiated with"
Are we sure that there arent any deranged individuals, who will find out on the internet that there is - check notes - "gestapo" member living in the area and decide to take action? Everything that you are saying here is irrelevant. Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable. You cannot do that if their faces are hidden and they have no identification. That is why normal police have names visible, have body cameras and are required to answer questions about who they are. Masked men disappearing people could be anyone. ICE, random criminals, etc. We don't know. That is only increasing unrest in society. If ICE wanna be the police, they should atleast make sure they are recognizable and have body cams so we can see what they are doing. "Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable." - they are. "You cannot do that" - yes you can. Lets be honest here. You can file complain with ICE (police, FBI, court, not sure exactly which one) about their agents. So all your talk about being held accountable, is exact reason why they cover their faces. How naive are you? Police lie all the time. That's why they have body cams because otherwise they would just say "we investigated ourselves and found no wrongdoing". Filing a complaint with nothing to point to except "masked man who said hes ICE kidnapped my husband" is not very apt and full with information if you cannot even point to who the possible ICE member was and if there is no video proof. I actually dont mind body cams, I think thats perfect compromise, but people somehow focus on masks. Seems odd. Police and police adjacent people should be recognizable. This helps prevent them from abusing their power, and helps the average citizen to have trust in them as well as in case of abuses, direct the complaints towards the right policemen. By your logic, policemen should have their faces hidden too and nothing to have them be recognized because therr is anti-police sentiment in the US. I'm sure you realize how ridiculous that idea is. I just said that body cams are perfectly fine, and yet you keep focusing on masks. Why? Besides doesnt SWAT wear masks too? Among other reasons to protect their identity? SWAT have uniforms. SWAT have lots of fancy, expensive gear. To my knowledge SWAT have oversight in how they are deployed, and those deployments are usually explicitly dangerous scenarios. There’s some hostage scenario, or a school shooter and SWAT show up, with all their fancy gear, there isn’t really a question who they are, or why they are there. You don’t have people running around pretending to be SWAT and tackling life-threatening scenarios. ICE are running around detaining people without warrants, and without obvious means of identification at times. It is that combination that is the problem. As I said, possibly multiple times, I don’t have an innate issue with some level of hiding identity, in some scenarios. If you’re serving a warrant and busting a high-level drug cartel member, those people are dangerous. It is prudent to protect people in such operations. It’s very different when you’re hanging around, detaining folks without ‘probable’ cause outside of accents or skin colour or whatever I believe ICE also has oversight in how it is deployed, it is not like they spawning randomly from mysterious gates. (although it would be cool as f...k) Isn't ICE among others also deporting cartel members? Also in current US climate I am not entirely sure that cartels would be their biggest threat. Edit: brackets + Show Spoiler +Risks, but overstated risks. Antifa aren’t running around killing ICE agents or whatever. This seems such an odd hill to die on. + Show Spoiler +Do you seriously mean to tell me you wouldn’t have had an issue with an agency running around in plainclothes and masks, stopping and detaining anyone with a Polish accent when you arrived in the UK?
That's because it is a bad faith distraction where the fun/point is in making people like yourselves treat it like a real discussion. You're not actually oblivious enough to believe that Razyda didn't know SWAT has insignia.
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On September 22 2025 22:37 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2025 22:29 EnDeR_ wrote:On September 22 2025 22:22 Jockmcplop wrote:On September 22 2025 22:19 EnDeR_ wrote:On September 22 2025 22:12 Jockmcplop wrote:On September 22 2025 22:03 LightSpectra wrote:On September 22 2025 21:51 Jockmcplop wrote:On September 22 2025 21:40 LightSpectra wrote:On September 22 2025 21:34 Jockmcplop wrote:On September 22 2025 21:29 LightSpectra wrote:
[quote]
Are these "seemingly intelligent people" in the room with us right now? Answered in the post above yours. This already happened once with Gaza and if anyone can be arsed to go back trawling through a couple of years of posts (I can't) they'll see it right there. Trump's genocide in Gaza is worse/faster than the Dems would have wanted, therefore the Dems genocide is what we should have voted for, because it isn't as bad. I was told this multiple times. You always, always, always vote for the not as bad party, no matter the circumstances, otherwise you get the worse one. Kamala Harris called for a ceasefire three times in 2024 and the people of Gaza themselves wanted her to win. Does their opinion matter to you, or do they cease being relevant if you can't weaponize them to get the moral highground in an Internet argument? That article is just an interview with half a dozen Palestinians who don't want Trump. So those 5-6 people, sure, they have their opinions, they matter to me about the same as the opinions of any random 5-6 people you select. I don't understand why you would post an article like this as proof that 'The people of Gaza' wanted her to win. So, your objection to this is purely "the sample size is not big enough", correct? Just checking. If there was a formal poll done that overwhelmingly showed Gazans preferring Harris to Trump, then you'd admit that everything you said about Democrats and "lesser genocide" was morally absurd, right? If there were a range of polls all showing the same thing by a large amount, it might change my mind, but 'morally absurd' ? No (you don't have to overstate everything to the maximum degree) Its bloody hard to find anything on Google though without it being obvious propaganda from one side or the other. The most common thing I've found is that Palestinians in Gaza generally didn't think it would make much difference to them. On September 22 2025 21:55 EnDeR_ wrote:On September 22 2025 21:42 Jockmcplop wrote:On September 22 2025 21:39 EnDeR_ wrote:On September 22 2025 21:24 Jockmcplop wrote:On September 22 2025 21:12 EnDeR_ wrote:
[quote]
Do you genuinely (you and GH both) believe that we would vote for someone building death chambers for Mexicans? Really?
We are talking about candidates that we may not agree with on everything, but in general we are fairly supportive of their agenda -- both Clinton's and Harris' agenda had a lot of stuff that I was on board with. Well when the question was Trump's more extreme genocide in Gaza or the Dems less extreme genocide we were left in absolutely no doubt what you guys think. I think we'd be debating numbers. This is based entirely on conversations we've had in this very thread, so please don't take offence, I don't know you as a human being, or anyone else here. I personally have strong opinions about this. I haven't bought anything produced in Israel nor have I refereed proposals by Israeli scientists and fully support the protest against Israeli teams competing in international sporting events. I fully support my country in their stance towards Israel and think we haven't gone far enough. I don't judge Vox because of their pro-Israeli stance. I judge them because they're an inti-immigration party, stoking fear and generally making this place a shittier place to live in. I don't doubt any of this The consistent framing of democrats as 'lesser evil' is already a prejudgement. I had a lot of things I liked in Clinton's, Biden's and Harris' platforms. I didn't like everything, but I liked a lot. I'm an adult human being, I know you only achieve things through compromise -- one-sided impositions just lead to a yo-yo where each administration just undoes whatever the last one did.
I think the situation in Gaza is regrettable. I think judging political parties based solely on something that is as complicated as the Palestine/Israel conflict is also just plain weird. Please don't make me go back in this thread and find the conversations. Please. There were specific conversations about Israel's genocide and I was told multiple times, by multiple people, and again every time Trump came up with a new 'Gaza plan' that voting for the Democrats was right in the case of Israel because Trump's genocide would be worse than the Democrats' genocide (probably not using those words). If you want to push the angle that bad Dems are bad and the 'lesser evil' then it's up to you defend that position. The response to the Israeli/Gaza conflict is complicated as it involved questions about what's an allowable reaction after a horrific terrorist attack. To draw a parallel, after the twin towers, America decided that it was okay to carpet bomb the middle east. After the terrorist attacks in Madrid that only missed me by 1 train stop (literally I would've gotten on that train that morning one stop after they blew them up at the same time, I got caught in the metro) I was also pretty damn happy to bring the regime and the people supporting that regime as much pain as possible. I don't want to veer this into an argument about whether or not the genocide in Gaza is okay, so I'll leave this part of the discussion here, we can carry it on in the Israel thread if you want but I'd rather not because I've feeling it'll just be butting heads. I don't think the genocide in Gaza is okay. I also don't think it's as simple as you're making it. I don't think I've made it simple. I do think any questions about it were resolved before Harris was a presidential candidate. Either we differ on that or we don't, but I don't think its constructive to argue about it. You said that we would vote to gas 99% of mexicans instead of 100% based on your read of our position on the genocide occurring in Gaza. Are we not discussing the point you raised? Why did you post that if you didn't believe it to be true. Can you stick to discussing one thing please? A second ago it was all about Madrid and complications and whether or not Israel is justified in x or y. Now you're switching back again. These are discrete discussions that have absolutely nothing to do with each other, its not relevant context or anything. When did I say I didn't believe it to be true? You don't need to put words in my mouth. I was told that voting for the dems when they support genocide in Gaza is necessary because Trump will make sure the genocide is worse. That is what I am basing my argument on. Whether or not you find the morality of the various stages of Israel's revenge complicated is irrelevant to that, or anything that I choose to infer from that. Its a completely different conversation.
You are choosing to see the Democratic party as evil (as GH does) through the lens of their response (or lack of action, I guess, since they did call for ceasefires and publicly denounced what was happening) to the atrocities in Gaza, hence the 'lesser evilism' discourse. Is this accurate?
I am simply stating that responding to the Israeli/gaza conflict is not straightforward. On the one hand, Israel just got horrifically attacked and some kind of response is justified, do you agree? Or is the argument that they should resolve the Israeli hostage situation through international courts? How would you have liked them to have acted?
I agree with you and GH that Israel has gone too far and it has been obvious for a pretty damn long time that it was going too far and it is incredible that we had to wait until children dying of hunger to act. I would've hoped our politicians picked this up earlier and did something about it rather than let it fester to this point.
Without excusing it, I understand why they fibbed the response, though. Whenever it's something to do with Israel, everything is complicated by not wanting to seem antisemitic, and it is just a fact of life that Americans are pretty comfortable with retribution, look at your justice system.
I just don't agree with the premise that Democrats are "the lesser evil". I just think they're not evil, simply ineffective in dealing with whatever is going on with the GOP.
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On September 23 2025 00:40 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2025 00:25 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 23:15 WombaT wrote:
Yeah, that placed them under more risk, as would ICE agents be, but it’s worth the tradeoff overall, least for myself. Thank you for at least admitting that it would put them at risk. On September 22 2025 23:15 WombaT wrote:
People have also correctly pointed out other negative scenarios that can spawn from this, such as criminals being able to impersonate ICE agents.
People were impersonating law enforcement since forever, thats why impersonating a police officer is an offence, lets not pretend that this is some new, ICE wearing mask, phaenomenon. On September 22 2025 23:56 WombaT wrote:On September 22 2025 23:25 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 23:00 LightSpectra wrote:On September 22 2025 22:59 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 22:46 LightSpectra wrote:On September 22 2025 22:42 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 22:06 Luolis wrote:On September 22 2025 19:00 Razyda wrote:
[quote]
??
I said that ICE agents wear mask to protect their identity, so people wont dox them and threat them and their families.
Wombat argument was essentially that there is no ongoing terrorist campaign in US. (implying that they have nothing to worry about)
Me mentioning Kirk was pointing out that even though there isnt ongoing terror campaign, bad shit happens.
Kirk was killed because "some hatred cannot be negotiated with"
Are we sure that there arent any deranged individuals, who will find out on the internet that there is - check notes - "gestapo" member living in the area and decide to take action? Everything that you are saying here is irrelevant. Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable. You cannot do that if their faces are hidden and they have no identification. That is why normal police have names visible, have body cameras and are required to answer questions about who they are. Masked men disappearing people could be anyone. ICE, random criminals, etc. We don't know. That is only increasing unrest in society. If ICE wanna be the police, they should atleast make sure they are recognizable and have body cams so we can see what they are doing. "Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable." - they are. "You cannot do that" - yes you can. Lets be honest here. You can file complain with ICE (police, FBI, court, not sure exactly which one) about their agents. So all your talk about being held accountable, is exact reason why they cover their faces. Walk me through this process, I eat crayons. I catch a local police officer taking bribes. I take a photo and report his name and badge number to his precinct. At that point if they ignore me, I can find a journalist to report it. A masked ICE agent shoves someone I know to be a U.S. citizen into an unmarked van. Who do I report this to, how, and what do I do if they ignore me? "A masked ICE agent shoves someone I know to be a U.S. citizen into an unmarked van. Who do I report this to, how, and what do I do if they ignore me? " the same people you would report it to, if he was unmasked?? Okay, so I reported it and they did nothing. Journalists are also sharing the footage. What's the next step? Again the same as if he was unmasked. On September 22 2025 23:04 Luolis wrote:On September 22 2025 22:59 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 22:46 LightSpectra wrote:On September 22 2025 22:42 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 22:06 Luolis wrote:On September 22 2025 19:00 Razyda wrote:
[quote]
??
I said that ICE agents wear mask to protect their identity, so people wont dox them and threat them and their families.
Wombat argument was essentially that there is no ongoing terrorist campaign in US. (implying that they have nothing to worry about)
Me mentioning Kirk was pointing out that even though there isnt ongoing terror campaign, bad shit happens.
Kirk was killed because "some hatred cannot be negotiated with"
Are we sure that there arent any deranged individuals, who will find out on the internet that there is - check notes - "gestapo" member living in the area and decide to take action? Everything that you are saying here is irrelevant. Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable. You cannot do that if their faces are hidden and they have no identification. That is why normal police have names visible, have body cameras and are required to answer questions about who they are. Masked men disappearing people could be anyone. ICE, random criminals, etc. We don't know. That is only increasing unrest in society. If ICE wanna be the police, they should atleast make sure they are recognizable and have body cams so we can see what they are doing. "Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable." - they are. "You cannot do that" - yes you can. Lets be honest here. You can file complain with ICE (police, FBI, court, not sure exactly which one) about their agents. So all your talk about being held accountable, is exact reason why they cover their faces. Walk me through this process, I eat crayons. I catch a local police officer taking bribes. I take a photo and report his name and badge number to his precinct. At that point if they ignore me, I can find a journalist to report it. A masked ICE agent shoves someone I know to be a U.S. citizen into an unmarked van. Who do I report this to, how, and what do I do if they ignore me? "A masked ICE agent shoves someone I know to be a U.S. citizen into an unmarked van. Who do I report this to, how, and what do I do if they ignore me? " the same people you would report it to, if he was unmasked?? On September 22 2025 22:50 Luolis wrote:On September 22 2025 22:42 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 22:06 Luolis wrote:On September 22 2025 19:00 Razyda wrote:
[quote]
??
I said that ICE agents wear mask to protect their identity, so people wont dox them and threat them and their families.
Wombat argument was essentially that there is no ongoing terrorist campaign in US. (implying that they have nothing to worry about)
Me mentioning Kirk was pointing out that even though there isnt ongoing terror campaign, bad shit happens.
Kirk was killed because "some hatred cannot be negotiated with"
Are we sure that there arent any deranged individuals, who will find out on the internet that there is - check notes - "gestapo" member living in the area and decide to take action? Everything that you are saying here is irrelevant. Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable. You cannot do that if their faces are hidden and they have no identification. That is why normal police have names visible, have body cameras and are required to answer questions about who they are. Masked men disappearing people could be anyone. ICE, random criminals, etc. We don't know. That is only increasing unrest in society. If ICE wanna be the police, they should atleast make sure they are recognizable and have body cams so we can see what they are doing. "Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable." - they are. "You cannot do that" - yes you can. Lets be honest here. You can file complain with ICE (police, FBI, court, not sure exactly which one) about their agents. So all your talk about being held accountable, is exact reason why they cover their faces. How naive are you? Police lie all the time. That's why they have body cams because otherwise they would just say "we investigated ourselves and found no wrongdoing". Filing a complaint with nothing to point to except "masked man who said hes ICE kidnapped my husband" is not very apt and full with information if you cannot even point to who the possible ICE member was and if there is no video proof. I actually dont mind body cams, I think thats perfect compromise, but people somehow focus on masks. Seems odd. Police and police adjacent people should be recognizable. This helps prevent them from abusing their power, and helps the average citizen to have trust in them as well as in case of abuses, direct the complaints towards the right policemen. By your logic, policemen should have their faces hidden too and nothing to have them be recognized because therr is anti-police sentiment in the US. I'm sure you realize how ridiculous that idea is. I just said that body cams are perfectly fine, and yet you keep focusing on masks. Why? Besides doesnt SWAT wear masks too? Among other reasons to protect their identity? SWAT have uniforms. SWAT have lots of fancy, expensive gear. To my knowledge SWAT have oversight in how they are deployed, and those deployments are usually explicitly dangerous scenarios. There’s some hostage scenario, or a school shooter and SWAT show up, with all their fancy gear, there isn’t really a question who they are, or why they are there. You don’t have people running around pretending to be SWAT and tackling life-threatening scenarios. ICE are running around detaining people without warrants, and without obvious means of identification at times. It is that combination that is the problem. As I said, possibly multiple times, I don’t have an innate issue with some level of hiding identity, in some scenarios. If you’re serving a warrant and busting a high-level drug cartel member, those people are dangerous. It is prudent to protect people in such operations. It’s very different when you’re hanging around, detaining folks without ‘probable’ cause outside of accents or skin colour or whatever I believe ICE also has oversight in how it is deployed, it is not like they spawning randomly from mysterious gates. (although it would be cool as f...k) Isn't ICE among others also deporting cartel members? Also in current US climate I am not entirely sure that cartels would be their biggest threat. Edit: brackets Risks, but overstated risks. Antifa aren’t running around killing ICE agents or whatever. This seems such an odd hill to die on. Do you seriously mean to tell me you wouldn’t have had an issue with an agency running around in plainclothes and masks, stopping and detaining anyone with a Polish accent when you arrived in the UK?
"Risks, but overstated risks. Antifa aren’t running around killing ICE agents or whatever."
I dont know, Kirk murder, and more importantly reactions to it seem to paint different picture. And I am not talking antifa, but your average imbecile, who cheered for Luigi and saw him being called a hero, who saw like people reacted to Kirk assassination. I think that insistence on specifically masks (I conceded that body cams would be great solution, however no one seem to be interested) is telling.
People want to know ICE identities strictly to harass them to the point that they wont be able, or be to affraid to do their jobs.
"Do you seriously mean to tell me you wouldn’t have had an issue with an agency running around in plainclothes and masks, stopping and detaining anyone with a Polish accent when you arrived in the UK?"
Thats interesting question, especially considering that it may be soon coming. The way I see it, I am a guest in your country and it is your country decision to make. I do think it made some outrageous decisions lately ( eg: OSA, antiprotest law), but ultimately I can only adapt or f...k off. Also my issue wouldnt be with plain clothes and masks, but rather with stopping and detaining. However if it would be your government position and such law would be in power, you may be sure as hell that I wouldnt be here at such time.
Edit:
On September 23 2025 00:49 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2025 00:40 WombaT wrote:On September 23 2025 00:25 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 23:15 WombaT wrote:
Yeah, that placed them under more risk, as would ICE agents be, but it’s worth the tradeoff overall, least for myself. Thank you for at least admitting that it would put them at risk. On September 22 2025 23:15 WombaT wrote:
People have also correctly pointed out other negative scenarios that can spawn from this, such as criminals being able to impersonate ICE agents.
People were impersonating law enforcement since forever, thats why impersonating a police officer is an offence, lets not pretend that this is some new, ICE wearing mask, phaenomenon. On September 22 2025 23:56 WombaT wrote:On September 22 2025 23:25 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 23:00 LightSpectra wrote:On September 22 2025 22:59 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 22:46 LightSpectra wrote:On September 22 2025 22:42 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 22:06 Luolis wrote:
[quote]
Everything that you are saying here is irrelevant. Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable. You cannot do that if their faces are hidden and they have no identification. That is why normal police have names visible, have body cameras and are required to answer questions about who they are.
Masked men disappearing people could be anyone. ICE, random criminals, etc. We don't know. That is only increasing unrest in society. If ICE wanna be the police, they should atleast make sure they are recognizable and have body cams so we can see what they are doing. "Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable." - they are. "You cannot do that" - yes you can. Lets be honest here. You can file complain with ICE (police, FBI, court, not sure exactly which one) about their agents. So all your talk about being held accountable, is exact reason why they cover their faces. Walk me through this process, I eat crayons. I catch a local police officer taking bribes. I take a photo and report his name and badge number to his precinct. At that point if they ignore me, I can find a journalist to report it. A masked ICE agent shoves someone I know to be a U.S. citizen into an unmarked van. Who do I report this to, how, and what do I do if they ignore me? "A masked ICE agent shoves someone I know to be a U.S. citizen into an unmarked van. Who do I report this to, how, and what do I do if they ignore me? " the same people you would report it to, if he was unmasked?? Okay, so I reported it and they did nothing. Journalists are also sharing the footage. What's the next step? Again the same as if he was unmasked. On September 22 2025 23:04 Luolis wrote:On September 22 2025 22:59 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 22:46 LightSpectra wrote:On September 22 2025 22:42 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 22:06 Luolis wrote:
[quote]
Everything that you are saying here is irrelevant. Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable. You cannot do that if their faces are hidden and they have no identification. That is why normal police have names visible, have body cameras and are required to answer questions about who they are.
Masked men disappearing people could be anyone. ICE, random criminals, etc. We don't know. That is only increasing unrest in society. If ICE wanna be the police, they should atleast make sure they are recognizable and have body cams so we can see what they are doing. "Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable." - they are. "You cannot do that" - yes you can. Lets be honest here. You can file complain with ICE (police, FBI, court, not sure exactly which one) about their agents. So all your talk about being held accountable, is exact reason why they cover their faces. Walk me through this process, I eat crayons. I catch a local police officer taking bribes. I take a photo and report his name and badge number to his precinct. At that point if they ignore me, I can find a journalist to report it. A masked ICE agent shoves someone I know to be a U.S. citizen into an unmarked van. Who do I report this to, how, and what do I do if they ignore me? "A masked ICE agent shoves someone I know to be a U.S. citizen into an unmarked van. Who do I report this to, how, and what do I do if they ignore me? " the same people you would report it to, if he was unmasked?? On September 22 2025 22:50 Luolis wrote:On September 22 2025 22:42 Razyda wrote:On September 22 2025 22:06 Luolis wrote:
[quote]
Everything that you are saying here is irrelevant. Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable. You cannot do that if their faces are hidden and they have no identification. That is why normal police have names visible, have body cameras and are required to answer questions about who they are.
Masked men disappearing people could be anyone. ICE, random criminals, etc. We don't know. That is only increasing unrest in society. If ICE wanna be the police, they should atleast make sure they are recognizable and have body cams so we can see what they are doing. "Police and police adjacent people should be able to be held accountable." - they are. "You cannot do that" - yes you can. Lets be honest here. You can file complain with ICE (police, FBI, court, not sure exactly which one) about their agents. So all your talk about being held accountable, is exact reason why they cover their faces. How naive are you? Police lie all the time. That's why they have body cams because otherwise they would just say "we investigated ourselves and found no wrongdoing". Filing a complaint with nothing to point to except "masked man who said hes ICE kidnapped my husband" is not very apt and full with information if you cannot even point to who the possible ICE member was and if there is no video proof. I actually dont mind body cams, I think thats perfect compromise, but people somehow focus on masks. Seems odd. Police and police adjacent people should be recognizable. This helps prevent them from abusing their power, and helps the average citizen to have trust in them as well as in case of abuses, direct the complaints towards the right policemen. By your logic, policemen should have their faces hidden too and nothing to have them be recognized because therr is anti-police sentiment in the US. I'm sure you realize how ridiculous that idea is. I just said that body cams are perfectly fine, and yet you keep focusing on masks. Why? Besides doesnt SWAT wear masks too? Among other reasons to protect their identity? SWAT have uniforms. SWAT have lots of fancy, expensive gear. To my knowledge SWAT have oversight in how they are deployed, and those deployments are usually explicitly dangerous scenarios. There’s some hostage scenario, or a school shooter and SWAT show up, with all their fancy gear, there isn’t really a question who they are, or why they are there. You don’t have people running around pretending to be SWAT and tackling life-threatening scenarios. ICE are running around detaining people without warrants, and without obvious means of identification at times. It is that combination that is the problem. As I said, possibly multiple times, I don’t have an innate issue with some level of hiding identity, in some scenarios. If you’re serving a warrant and busting a high-level drug cartel member, those people are dangerous. It is prudent to protect people in such operations. It’s very different when you’re hanging around, detaining folks without ‘probable’ cause outside of accents or skin colour or whatever I believe ICE also has oversight in how it is deployed, it is not like they spawning randomly from mysterious gates. (although it would be cool as f...k) Isn't ICE among others also deporting cartel members? Also in current US climate I am not entirely sure that cartels would be their biggest threat. Edit: brackets + Show Spoiler +Risks, but overstated risks. Antifa aren’t running around killing ICE agents or whatever. This seems such an odd hill to die on. + Show Spoiler +Do you seriously mean to tell me you wouldn’t have had an issue with an agency running around in plainclothes and masks, stopping and detaining anyone with a Polish accent when you arrived in the UK? That's because it is a bad faith distraction where the fun/point is in making people like yourselves treat it like a real discussion. You're not actually oblivious enough to believe that Razyda didn't know SWAT has insignia.
No it is not. SWAT example was to point out that they also hide their identity precisely because they deal with dangerous people/organisations. Insignia aren't significant in this context.
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On September 23 2025 01:01 EnDeR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2025 22:37 Jockmcplop wrote:On September 22 2025 22:29 EnDeR_ wrote:On September 22 2025 22:22 Jockmcplop wrote:On September 22 2025 22:19 EnDeR_ wrote:On September 22 2025 22:12 Jockmcplop wrote:On September 22 2025 22:03 LightSpectra wrote:On September 22 2025 21:51 Jockmcplop wrote:On September 22 2025 21:40 LightSpectra wrote:On September 22 2025 21:34 Jockmcplop wrote:
[quote]
Answered in the post above yours. This already happened once with Gaza and if anyone can be arsed to go back trawling through a couple of years of posts (I can't) they'll see it right there.
Trump's genocide in Gaza is worse/faster than the Dems would have wanted, therefore the Dems genocide is what we should have voted for, because it isn't as bad.
I was told this multiple times.
You always, always, always vote for the not as bad party, no matter the circumstances, otherwise you get the worse one. Kamala Harris called for a ceasefire three times in 2024 and the people of Gaza themselves wanted her to win. Does their opinion matter to you, or do they cease being relevant if you can't weaponize them to get the moral highground in an Internet argument? That article is just an interview with half a dozen Palestinians who don't want Trump. So those 5-6 people, sure, they have their opinions, they matter to me about the same as the opinions of any random 5-6 people you select. I don't understand why you would post an article like this as proof that 'The people of Gaza' wanted her to win. So, your objection to this is purely "the sample size is not big enough", correct? Just checking. If there was a formal poll done that overwhelmingly showed Gazans preferring Harris to Trump, then you'd admit that everything you said about Democrats and "lesser genocide" was morally absurd, right? If there were a range of polls all showing the same thing by a large amount, it might change my mind, but 'morally absurd' ? No (you don't have to overstate everything to the maximum degree) Its bloody hard to find anything on Google though without it being obvious propaganda from one side or the other. The most common thing I've found is that Palestinians in Gaza generally didn't think it would make much difference to them. On September 22 2025 21:55 EnDeR_ wrote:On September 22 2025 21:42 Jockmcplop wrote:On September 22 2025 21:39 EnDeR_ wrote:On September 22 2025 21:24 Jockmcplop wrote:
[quote]
Well when the question was Trump's more extreme genocide in Gaza or the Dems less extreme genocide we were left in absolutely no doubt what you guys think.
I think we'd be debating numbers.
This is based entirely on conversations we've had in this very thread, so please don't take offence, I don't know you as a human being, or anyone else here. I personally have strong opinions about this. I haven't bought anything produced in Israel nor have I refereed proposals by Israeli scientists and fully support the protest against Israeli teams competing in international sporting events. I fully support my country in their stance towards Israel and think we haven't gone far enough. I don't judge Vox because of their pro-Israeli stance. I judge them because they're an inti-immigration party, stoking fear and generally making this place a shittier place to live in. I don't doubt any of this The consistent framing of democrats as 'lesser evil' is already a prejudgement. I had a lot of things I liked in Clinton's, Biden's and Harris' platforms. I didn't like everything, but I liked a lot. I'm an adult human being, I know you only achieve things through compromise -- one-sided impositions just lead to a yo-yo where each administration just undoes whatever the last one did.
I think the situation in Gaza is regrettable. I think judging political parties based solely on something that is as complicated as the Palestine/Israel conflict is also just plain weird. Please don't make me go back in this thread and find the conversations. Please. There were specific conversations about Israel's genocide and I was told multiple times, by multiple people, and again every time Trump came up with a new 'Gaza plan' that voting for the Democrats was right in the case of Israel because Trump's genocide would be worse than the Democrats' genocide (probably not using those words). If you want to push the angle that bad Dems are bad and the 'lesser evil' then it's up to you defend that position. The response to the Israeli/Gaza conflict is complicated as it involved questions about what's an allowable reaction after a horrific terrorist attack. To draw a parallel, after the twin towers, America decided that it was okay to carpet bomb the middle east. After the terrorist attacks in Madrid that only missed me by 1 train stop (literally I would've gotten on that train that morning one stop after they blew them up at the same time, I got caught in the metro) I was also pretty damn happy to bring the regime and the people supporting that regime as much pain as possible. I don't want to veer this into an argument about whether or not the genocide in Gaza is okay, so I'll leave this part of the discussion here, we can carry it on in the Israel thread if you want but I'd rather not because I've feeling it'll just be butting heads. I don't think the genocide in Gaza is okay. I also don't think it's as simple as you're making it. I don't think I've made it simple. I do think any questions about it were resolved before Harris was a presidential candidate. Either we differ on that or we don't, but I don't think its constructive to argue about it. You said that we would vote to gas 99% of mexicans instead of 100% based on your read of our position on the genocide occurring in Gaza. Are we not discussing the point you raised? Why did you post that if you didn't believe it to be true. Can you stick to discussing one thing please? A second ago it was all about Madrid and complications and whether or not Israel is justified in x or y. Now you're switching back again. These are discrete discussions that have absolutely nothing to do with each other, its not relevant context or anything. When did I say I didn't believe it to be true? You don't need to put words in my mouth. I was told that voting for the dems when they support genocide in Gaza is necessary because Trump will make sure the genocide is worse. That is what I am basing my argument on. Whether or not you find the morality of the various stages of Israel's revenge complicated is irrelevant to that, or anything that I choose to infer from that. Its a completely different conversation. You are choosing to see the Democratic party as evil (as GH does) through the lens of their response (or lack of action, I guess, since they did call for ceasefires and publicly denounced what was happening) to the atrocities in Gaza, hence the 'lesser evilism' discourse. Is this accurate? I am simply stating that responding to the Israeli/gaza conflict is not straightforward. On the one hand, Israel just got horrifically attacked and some kind of response is justified, do you agree? Or is the argument that they should resolve the Israeli hostage situation through international courts? How would you have liked them to have acted? I agree with you and GH that Israel has gone too far and it has been obvious for a pretty damn long time that it was going too far and it is incredible that we had to wait until children dying of hunger to act. I would've hoped our politicians picked this up earlier and did something about it rather than let it fester to this point. Without excusing it, I understand why they fibbed the response, though. Whenever it's something to do with Israel, everything is complicated by not wanting to seem antisemitic, and it is just a fact of life that Americans are pretty comfortable with retribution, look at your justice system. I just don't agree with the premise that Democrats are "the lesser evil". I just think they're not evil, simply ineffective in dealing with whatever is going on with the GOP.
For me, there are plenty of straightforward things about Israel that the Dems won't address. They won't stop selling Israel the weapons they need to exterminate the population of Gaza for a start. Neither will any party in my country, but that's obviously on a totally different scale (clearly I also see Labour as evil for involving our country in the genocide too).
Selling Israel that many weapons, having Israel lean on America for basically everything they need to do what they are doing, well I'm sorry 'not wanting to seem antisemitic' is pretty much as poor an excuse as you can get for that behaviour, and certainly doesn't lift the cloud of evil from over the Dems' heads, in my opinion.
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EPT
