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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
I dunno, Meta is going to open a datacenter that is going to use three times the power of New Orleans. AI is a problem.
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Between COVID and AI, a whole generation of university graduates (with minor exceptions) has not been able to learn how to problem-solve. These same graduates also lost the entry level jobs because the AI can do it better.
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Remote schooling has been an absolute disaster.
AI is just the cherry on top... I'm supposed to teach an apprentice how to write basic corporate letters to customers. The second she runs into a problem she asks Chatgpt to write it for her and doesn't even bother to check if it has actually written what it should and it's not even like she's using it "smart".... But at least there are less typos.
When she has to enter a Bill in our system she is basically totally uncapable of seeing which text would be usefull to note and instead writes random stuff that is on the bill (vat numbers, pointless article numbers... your imagination is the limit).
The total implosion of any basic windows/office skills combined with the attention span of a goldfish... She was actually very decent in school but I plain can't imagine how... It's just sad to see, can't imagine how bad students do.
She is years behind when compared to apprentices that finnished school before Covid. I blame remote schooling, AI, touchscreens/smartphones and tutorial videos replacing text based instructions. It's not even like her parents weren't "on the ball" or that she was a "screen-child" but the diffrence is staggering.
I teach apprentices since over 10 years, sometimes I had "bad" ones that needed a bit more support/time to learn stuff but in the end it allways worked out and they became reliable young adults that were a joy to work with. This is pretty much the first time it's not fun at all and I plain don't know how to make that girl "get it", my collegues that are also supposed to teach her stuff are scared to do so because she makes so many errors.
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On August 25 2025 00:41 Sent. wrote:
Are you just writing ideas into the void or do you really believe in what you just posted?
https://www.promarket.org/2022/11/08/how-austerity-emerged-after-world-war-i-to-preserve-capitalism/
When I refer to a crisis of capitalism, I do not mean an economic crisis— say, a slowdown in growth or an uptick in inflation. Capitalism is in crisis when its core relationship (the sale of production for profit) and its two enabling pillars (private property in the means of production; and wage relations between owners and workers) are contested by the public, in particular by the workers who make capitalism run. As part of these expressions of unhappiness, people have historically demanded alternative forms of social organization. Indeed, and as this book will demonstrate, austerity’s primary utility over the last century has been to silence such calls and to foreclose alternatives to capitalism. Mostly this occurs in times of public outcry and worker strikes— not, as it is often advertised, in times when states and governments seek to spontaneously improve their economic indicators by practicing greater economic discipline.
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On August 25 2025 16:16 Velr wrote:
Remote schooling has been an absolute disaster.
AI is just the cherry on top... I'm supposed to teach an apprentice how to write basic corporate letters to customers. The second she runs into a problem she asks Chatgpt to write it for her and doesn't even bother to check if it has actually written what it should and it's not even like she's using it "smart".... But at least there are less typos.
When she has to enter a Bill in our system she is basically totally uncapable of seeing which text would be usefull to note and instead writes random stuff that is on the bill (vat numbers, pointless article numbers... your imagination is the limit).
The total implosion of any basic windows/office skills combined with the attention span of a goldfish... She was actually very decent in school but I plain can't imagine how... It's just sad to see, can't imagine how bad students do.
She is years behind when compared to apprentices that finnished school before Covid. I blame remote schooling, AI, touchscreens/smartphones and tutorial videos replacing text based instructions. It's not even like her parents weren't "on the ball" or that she was a "screen-child" but the diffrence is staggering.
I teach apprentices since over 10 years, sometimes I had "bad" ones that needed a bit more support/time to learn stuff but in the end it allways worked out and they became reliable young adults that were a joy to work with. This is pretty much the first time it's not fun at all and I plain don't know how to make that girl "get it", my collegues that are also supposed to teach her stuff are scared to do so because she makes so many errors.
To be fair, incompetent students/interns have always been around. The key difference in my view is that their first instinct now is not to try to figure it out, but to ask the bot to solve it for them. When the bot can't do it, suddenly they have no idea where to start, even with very basic tasks.
I can give you an example of one of my own PhD students (and he's actually one of the better ones). We were responding to a reviewer who had requested something that made no physical sense (probably text generated by the bot to begin with, but I digress). It was simple, they were asking about a process whose timescale was too short to influence the results. I asked the student to convert a diffusion constant into a timeframe to show this (simple multiply/divide operation when you know the geometry of the sample and material details, something that takes less than 2 minutes to do). For some reason the bot couldn't solve it or kept getting stupid answers, so he then spent a week searching the literature (with the bot, of course) for a reference of a measurement that gave the timeframe because he couldn't think how to do it otherwise.
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On August 25 2025 07:58 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2025 06:56 Magic Powers wrote:On August 25 2025 03:51 Falling wrote:
Yeah, as long as hallucinations remain, I don't see how I could us AI LLM as a source of information. LLM is good at generating content that matches the form of facts, but looks like a fact is not the same thing as a fact. Most of the time it does manage to come up with facts, but it cannot distinguish between fact and not fact. And so if you as a user are using it to gain knowledge, you cannot tell when it hallucinated as you don't know what you don't know. Replace "AI" with "Google" and you'd be equally right with all of that. It's not the tool that's the problem, it's the user. No, because if you come here and spout something ridiculous, get asked for sources and you say "I read it on breitbart", we laugh you out of the thread. Nobody says they read it on Google, because Google doesn't provide information (well, it's changing, and the AI overview has all of the same problems we highlighted above): Google provides access to information. You then have to inspect the websites it links to in order to see if that website says what you think it said, or you were actually wrong. If you were using ChatGPT in a similar way, and linking the sources it used to support your point, people might have laughed you out of the room for using breitbart as a source, but at least they'd know. And if your source was an eminent Yale professor citing various laws to argue the same thing you were, people would take that as mostly true. Instead you slapped a ChatGPT answer in here and called it a day. It's the laziest use of AI since some Trump PAC created Taylor Swift deepfakes. TLDR: you're wrong. Be better.
No, I did it the other way around. I first googled and read articles about the case of Abrego Garcia. I fact checked the sources and the news articles. That's how I knew that the deportation was wrongful to begin with. Not just the method or the target location or the imprisonment.
Only when I was asked specifically about the law regarding deportation to third countries - which is unrelated to Garcia's case - did I resort to using ChatGPT.
My only mistake was that I fell for the goalpost shift. And you, in arguing so furiously with me, are aiding right-wing lies.
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On August 25 2025 11:44 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2025 06:56 Magic Powers wrote:On August 25 2025 03:51 Falling wrote:
Yeah, as long as hallucinations remain, I don't see how I could us AI LLM as a source of information. LLM is good at generating content that matches the form of facts, but looks like a fact is not the same thing as a fact. Most of the time it does manage to come up with facts, but it cannot distinguish between fact and not fact. And so if you as a user are using it to gain knowledge, you cannot tell when it hallucinated as you don't know what you don't know. Replace "AI" with "Google" and you'd be equally right with all of that. It's not the tool that's the problem, it's the user. You know that you're the user here, right?
Yes? I'm not dumb and I don't lack introspection? Thank you for telling me? Wow?
Are YOU aware that you're the user or are you just projecting as always?
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On August 25 2025 16:43 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2025 07:58 Acrofales wrote:On August 25 2025 06:56 Magic Powers wrote:On August 25 2025 03:51 Falling wrote:
Yeah, as long as hallucinations remain, I don't see how I could us AI LLM as a source of information. LLM is good at generating content that matches the form of facts, but looks like a fact is not the same thing as a fact. Most of the time it does manage to come up with facts, but it cannot distinguish between fact and not fact. And so if you as a user are using it to gain knowledge, you cannot tell when it hallucinated as you don't know what you don't know. Replace "AI" with "Google" and you'd be equally right with all of that. It's not the tool that's the problem, it's the user. No, because if you come here and spout something ridiculous, get asked for sources and you say "I read it on breitbart", we laugh you out of the thread. Nobody says they read it on Google, because Google doesn't provide information (well, it's changing, and the AI overview has all of the same problems we highlighted above): Google provides access to information. You then have to inspect the websites it links to in order to see if that website says what you think it said, or you were actually wrong. If you were using ChatGPT in a similar way, and linking the sources it used to support your point, people might have laughed you out of the room for using breitbart as a source, but at least they'd know. And if your source was an eminent Yale professor citing various laws to argue the same thing you were, people would take that as mostly true. Instead you slapped a ChatGPT answer in here and called it a day. It's the laziest use of AI since some Trump PAC created Taylor Swift deepfakes. TLDR: you're wrong. Be better. No, I did it the other way around. I first googled and read articles about the case of Abrego Garcia. I fact checked the sources and the news articles. That's how I knew that the deportation was wrongful to begin with. Not just the method or the target location or the imprisonment. Only when I was asked specifically about the law regarding deportation to third countries - which is unrelated to Garcia's case - did I resort to using ChatGPT. My only mistake was that I fell for the goalpost shift. And you, in arguing so furiously with me, are aiding right-wing lies.
You say things like '3rd country deportations are basically a favour to the deportee'. When pressed for sources, you resort to ChatGPT. In the past, you've also uncritically referenced stuff like Kristi Noem's White House blog to make your points because it was something that you agreed with. In general, you will take stuff you agree with as true and stuff you disagree with as false.
This whole saga has little to do with right-wing lies and more about how you construct your arguments (poorly).
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On August 25 2025 17:13 EnDeR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2025 16:43 Magic Powers wrote:On August 25 2025 07:58 Acrofales wrote:On August 25 2025 06:56 Magic Powers wrote:On August 25 2025 03:51 Falling wrote:
Yeah, as long as hallucinations remain, I don't see how I could us AI LLM as a source of information. LLM is good at generating content that matches the form of facts, but looks like a fact is not the same thing as a fact. Most of the time it does manage to come up with facts, but it cannot distinguish between fact and not fact. And so if you as a user are using it to gain knowledge, you cannot tell when it hallucinated as you don't know what you don't know. Replace "AI" with "Google" and you'd be equally right with all of that. It's not the tool that's the problem, it's the user. No, because if you come here and spout something ridiculous, get asked for sources and you say "I read it on breitbart", we laugh you out of the thread. Nobody says they read it on Google, because Google doesn't provide information (well, it's changing, and the AI overview has all of the same problems we highlighted above): Google provides access to information. You then have to inspect the websites it links to in order to see if that website says what you think it said, or you were actually wrong. If you were using ChatGPT in a similar way, and linking the sources it used to support your point, people might have laughed you out of the room for using breitbart as a source, but at least they'd know. And if your source was an eminent Yale professor citing various laws to argue the same thing you were, people would take that as mostly true. Instead you slapped a ChatGPT answer in here and called it a day. It's the laziest use of AI since some Trump PAC created Taylor Swift deepfakes. TLDR: you're wrong. Be better. No, I did it the other way around. I first googled and read articles about the case of Abrego Garcia. I fact checked the sources and the news articles. That's how I knew that the deportation was wrongful to begin with. Not just the method or the target location or the imprisonment. Only when I was asked specifically about the law regarding deportation to third countries - which is unrelated to Garcia's case - did I resort to using ChatGPT. My only mistake was that I fell for the goalpost shift. And you, in arguing so furiously with me, are aiding right-wing lies. You say things like '3rd country deportations are basically a favour to the deportee'. When pressed for sources, you resort to ChatGPT. In the past, you've also uncritically referenced stuff like Kristi Noem's White House blog to make your points because it was something that you agreed with. In general, you will take stuff you agree with as true and stuff you disagree with as false. This whole saga has little to do with right-wing lies and more about how you construct your arguments (poorly).
Ah yes, because Introvert argued so much better. He did not. If you wanna pick any sides, picking his seems worse. He made a number of false claims and you didn't question him on that.
For example.
On August 23 2025 07:06 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2025 06:48 Magic Powers wrote:On August 23 2025 04:14 LightSpectra wrote:Kilmar Abrego Garcia is free. Turns out MS Painting the words "MS-13" on a picture of someone isn't enough evidence to detain them indefinitely. What's wild is that now he can be deported again without trial. Constitutionally. What a joke country. He's still in the country illegally. That hasn't changed and was always the basis of his deportation. Expecting an entire jury trial for a removal would be the joke.
That was in fact not the basis. It was the smuggling charges. But Introvert simply repeats the misinformation.
On August 23 2025 08:44 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2025 08:09 Magic Powers wrote:On August 23 2025 07:52 Introvert wrote:On August 23 2025 07:40 Magic Powers wrote:On August 23 2025 07:06 Introvert wrote:On August 23 2025 06:48 Magic Powers wrote:On August 23 2025 04:14 LightSpectra wrote:Kilmar Abrego Garcia is free. Turns out MS Painting the words "MS-13" on a picture of someone isn't enough evidence to detain them indefinitely. What's wild is that now he can be deported again without trial. Constitutionally. What a joke country. He's still in the country illegally. That hasn't changed and was always the basis of his deportation. Expecting an entire jury trial for a removal would be the joke. These illegal immigrants literally get jury trials to receive visa extensions or citizenship to prevent being deported. That's the top spot where ICE generally abducts them nowadays. Joke country. No? Immigration trials are before immigration judges which are article 2 judges (executive branch) not article 3 (judicial branch). At no point in American history had it been required to have a criminal jury trial to deport someone in the country illegally unless there was some other factor. A joke is thinking that sneaking across the border entitles you to the delays, due process, and legal protections of the criminal system. It'd be overwhelmed instantly. Just imagine if eveyone who Biden, being derelict at the border, let in, had to have a full jury trial to be deported. It's rediculous and easy to see why. Bruh. You brought up jury trials, not me. I thought you were talking about whatever regular trials they get summoned to. That's where ICE picks them up and abducts them. You know this. Imagine being an illegal person in a country that you take nothing from. You respect the law, you work, you even pay taxes, you're better than the typical citizen. And yet you get treated like trash. Well you said it was a joke he could be deported without a trial, but when we talked about this before I pointed out that he already had his normal immigration adjudication process and it was determined he could be deported. So I assumed you were talking about something else because otherwise what you said was just wrong. Imagine being someone who broke American law, lives in the country illegally and thinks that you shouldn't be concerned about being deported at any moment. How many countries, that presumably are not jokes, even puts up with illegal immigration as much as the US does. I've asked before, but you claim to not be for open borders yet it's hard to find a policy you support that isn't effectively open borders. Show nested quote +On August 23 2025 08:09 Billyboy wrote:On August 23 2025 07:06 Introvert wrote:On August 23 2025 06:48 Magic Powers wrote:On August 23 2025 04:14 LightSpectra wrote:Kilmar Abrego Garcia is free. Turns out MS Painting the words "MS-13" on a picture of someone isn't enough evidence to detain them indefinitely. What's wild is that now he can be deported again without trial. Constitutionally. What a joke country. He's still in the country illegally. That hasn't changed and was always the basis of his deportation. Expecting an entire jury trial for a removal would be the joke. What do you think the final price tag on this giant fuck up is going to be? And do not forget to add all the new legal costs from the civil suit he will most certainly win. On August 23 2025 07:06 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Canada is removing most retaliatory tariffs against the USA. It'll be a big win once the LCBO opens back up their shelves to American products. The anti-USA hate is waning. The Toronto BLue Jays are a 100% American product and the entire country is just gobbling up their pennant run. Every city the Blue Jays visit has thousands of Canadian fans at the games. The WNBA managed to sell out a full sized NBA arena in a regular season game in Canada. Canadians loves "America's Past Time". They just can't help themselves. The Blue Jays were a much cooler team when they were distinctly un-American. Oh well. LOL. Big Win for the USA today. On August 23 2025 06:48 Magic Powers wrote:On August 23 2025 04:14 LightSpectra wrote:Kilmar Abrego Garcia is free. Turns out MS Painting the words "MS-13" on a picture of someone isn't enough evidence to detain them indefinitely. What's wild is that now he can be deported again without trial. Constitutionally. What a joke country. meh, like most people who've lived around Toronto, Canada I have a few options in which country I can live. For me, and many hard working Canadians the USA is the best option. All these millions and millions of Albertans and Quebecers whining forever about separating from Canada and it'll prolly never happen. They can just leave for the USA. Big Red Sox//Yankees game tonight! USA! USA!. I'm really mad at the less taxes I'm going to have pay. I sure wish I was down there with you so I could pay more so the ultra rich could pay less! Im not as sure about his chances in the legal system as you are, but he should have been deported to somewhere he could legally be sent and that should have been the end of it.
There was no legal basis for Garcia's deportation because the smuggling charges weren't yet resolved.
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On August 25 2025 16:29 EnDeR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2025 16:16 Velr wrote:
Remote schooling has been an absolute disaster.
AI is just the cherry on top... I'm supposed to teach an apprentice how to write basic corporate letters to customers. The second she runs into a problem she asks Chatgpt to write it for her and doesn't even bother to check if it has actually written what it should and it's not even like she's using it "smart".... But at least there are less typos.
When she has to enter a Bill in our system she is basically totally uncapable of seeing which text would be usefull to note and instead writes random stuff that is on the bill (vat numbers, pointless article numbers... your imagination is the limit).
The total implosion of any basic windows/office skills combined with the attention span of a goldfish... She was actually very decent in school but I plain can't imagine how... It's just sad to see, can't imagine how bad students do.
She is years behind when compared to apprentices that finnished school before Covid. I blame remote schooling, AI, touchscreens/smartphones and tutorial videos replacing text based instructions. It's not even like her parents weren't "on the ball" or that she was a "screen-child" but the diffrence is staggering.
I teach apprentices since over 10 years, sometimes I had "bad" ones that needed a bit more support/time to learn stuff but in the end it allways worked out and they became reliable young adults that were a joy to work with. This is pretty much the first time it's not fun at all and I plain don't know how to make that girl "get it", my collegues that are also supposed to teach her stuff are scared to do so because she makes so many errors.
To be fair, incompetent students/interns have always been around. The key difference in my view is that their first instinct now is not to try to figure it out, but to ask the bot to solve it for them. When the bot can't do it, suddenly they have no idea where to start, even with very basic tasks. I can give you an example of one of my own PhD students (and he's actually one of the better ones). We were responding to a reviewer who had requested something that made no physical sense (probably text generated by the bot to begin with, but I digress). It was simple, they were asking about a process whose timescale was too short to influence the results. I asked the student to convert a diffusion constant into a timeframe to show this (simple multiply/divide operation when you know the geometry of the sample and material details, something that takes less than 2 minutes to do). For some reason the bot couldn't solve it or kept getting stupid answers, so he then spent a week searching the literature (with the bot, of course) for a reference of a measurement that gave the timeframe because he couldn't think how to do it otherwise.
Yes, "bad" apprentices allways existet, but they never had these sorts of issues. If I had one that didn't do well in school before, they usually struggled in the educational/academic aspects, atleast in the beginning. Some were plain lazy or not actually interested. But now? You get academically "gifted" apprentices that decided to not go for collegue out of their own will and then still struggle with basic tasks I would expect a good student to easily do. I'm not talking rocket science here. It's accounting, contract law, ms-office basics, german (mothertongue), english and french. They struggle as if it's harder than the stuff they had to do in school, which it plain isn't. It's just presented a bit diffrent and the teachers don't/can't constantly hold their hands.
Also, the issue isn't that she's using too much ChatGPT or Google. She uses it for stuff she got told you can use it for and uses it for that stuff totally uncritical, as if she thinks she is ousourcing all her work. Using it for something else? She seems to lack any imagination/understanding/idea... If stuff is not 100% pre chewed she is just immediatly lost. It's just strange/sad.
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On August 25 2025 17:46 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2025 17:13 EnDeR_ wrote:On August 25 2025 16:43 Magic Powers wrote:On August 25 2025 07:58 Acrofales wrote:On August 25 2025 06:56 Magic Powers wrote:On August 25 2025 03:51 Falling wrote:
Yeah, as long as hallucinations remain, I don't see how I could us AI LLM as a source of information. LLM is good at generating content that matches the form of facts, but looks like a fact is not the same thing as a fact. Most of the time it does manage to come up with facts, but it cannot distinguish between fact and not fact. And so if you as a user are using it to gain knowledge, you cannot tell when it hallucinated as you don't know what you don't know. Replace "AI" with "Google" and you'd be equally right with all of that. It's not the tool that's the problem, it's the user. No, because if you come here and spout something ridiculous, get asked for sources and you say "I read it on breitbart", we laugh you out of the thread. Nobody says they read it on Google, because Google doesn't provide information (well, it's changing, and the AI overview has all of the same problems we highlighted above): Google provides access to information. You then have to inspect the websites it links to in order to see if that website says what you think it said, or you were actually wrong. If you were using ChatGPT in a similar way, and linking the sources it used to support your point, people might have laughed you out of the room for using breitbart as a source, but at least they'd know. And if your source was an eminent Yale professor citing various laws to argue the same thing you were, people would take that as mostly true. Instead you slapped a ChatGPT answer in here and called it a day. It's the laziest use of AI since some Trump PAC created Taylor Swift deepfakes. TLDR: you're wrong. Be better. No, I did it the other way around. I first googled and read articles about the case of Abrego Garcia. I fact checked the sources and the news articles. That's how I knew that the deportation was wrongful to begin with. Not just the method or the target location or the imprisonment. Only when I was asked specifically about the law regarding deportation to third countries - which is unrelated to Garcia's case - did I resort to using ChatGPT. My only mistake was that I fell for the goalpost shift. And you, in arguing so furiously with me, are aiding right-wing lies. You say things like '3rd country deportations are basically a favour to the deportee'. When pressed for sources, you resort to ChatGPT. In the past, you've also uncritically referenced stuff like Kristi Noem's White House blog to make your points because it was something that you agreed with. In general, you will take stuff you agree with as true and stuff you disagree with as false. This whole saga has little to do with right-wing lies and more about how you construct your arguments (poorly). Ah yes, because Introvert argued so much better. He did not. If you wanna pick any sides, picking his seems worse. He made a number of false claims and you didn't question him on that. For example. Show nested quote +On August 23 2025 07:06 Introvert wrote:On August 23 2025 06:48 Magic Powers wrote:On August 23 2025 04:14 LightSpectra wrote:Kilmar Abrego Garcia is free. Turns out MS Painting the words "MS-13" on a picture of someone isn't enough evidence to detain them indefinitely. What's wild is that now he can be deported again without trial. Constitutionally. What a joke country. He's still in the country illegally. That hasn't changed and was always the basis of his deportation. Expecting an entire jury trial for a removal would be the joke. That was in fact not the basis. It was the smuggling charges. But Introvert simply repeats the misinformation. Show nested quote +On August 23 2025 08:44 Introvert wrote:On August 23 2025 08:09 Magic Powers wrote:On August 23 2025 07:52 Introvert wrote:On August 23 2025 07:40 Magic Powers wrote:On August 23 2025 07:06 Introvert wrote:On August 23 2025 06:48 Magic Powers wrote:On August 23 2025 04:14 LightSpectra wrote:Kilmar Abrego Garcia is free. Turns out MS Painting the words "MS-13" on a picture of someone isn't enough evidence to detain them indefinitely. What's wild is that now he can be deported again without trial. Constitutionally. What a joke country. He's still in the country illegally. That hasn't changed and was always the basis of his deportation. Expecting an entire jury trial for a removal would be the joke. These illegal immigrants literally get jury trials to receive visa extensions or citizenship to prevent being deported. That's the top spot where ICE generally abducts them nowadays. Joke country. No? Immigration trials are before immigration judges which are article 2 judges (executive branch) not article 3 (judicial branch). At no point in American history had it been required to have a criminal jury trial to deport someone in the country illegally unless there was some other factor. A joke is thinking that sneaking across the border entitles you to the delays, due process, and legal protections of the criminal system. It'd be overwhelmed instantly. Just imagine if eveyone who Biden, being derelict at the border, let in, had to have a full jury trial to be deported. It's rediculous and easy to see why. Bruh. You brought up jury trials, not me. I thought you were talking about whatever regular trials they get summoned to. That's where ICE picks them up and abducts them. You know this. Imagine being an illegal person in a country that you take nothing from. You respect the law, you work, you even pay taxes, you're better than the typical citizen. And yet you get treated like trash. Well you said it was a joke he could be deported without a trial, but when we talked about this before I pointed out that he already had his normal immigration adjudication process and it was determined he could be deported. So I assumed you were talking about something else because otherwise what you said was just wrong. Imagine being someone who broke American law, lives in the country illegally and thinks that you shouldn't be concerned about being deported at any moment. How many countries, that presumably are not jokes, even puts up with illegal immigration as much as the US does. I've asked before, but you claim to not be for open borders yet it's hard to find a policy you support that isn't effectively open borders. On August 23 2025 08:09 Billyboy wrote:On August 23 2025 07:06 Introvert wrote:On August 23 2025 06:48 Magic Powers wrote:On August 23 2025 04:14 LightSpectra wrote:Kilmar Abrego Garcia is free. Turns out MS Painting the words "MS-13" on a picture of someone isn't enough evidence to detain them indefinitely. What's wild is that now he can be deported again without trial. Constitutionally. What a joke country. He's still in the country illegally. That hasn't changed and was always the basis of his deportation. Expecting an entire jury trial for a removal would be the joke. What do you think the final price tag on this giant fuck up is going to be? And do not forget to add all the new legal costs from the civil suit he will most certainly win. On August 23 2025 07:06 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Canada is removing most retaliatory tariffs against the USA. It'll be a big win once the LCBO opens back up their shelves to American products. The anti-USA hate is waning. The Toronto BLue Jays are a 100% American product and the entire country is just gobbling up their pennant run. Every city the Blue Jays visit has thousands of Canadian fans at the games. The WNBA managed to sell out a full sized NBA arena in a regular season game in Canada. Canadians loves "America's Past Time". They just can't help themselves. The Blue Jays were a much cooler team when they were distinctly un-American. Oh well. LOL. Big Win for the USA today. On August 23 2025 06:48 Magic Powers wrote:On August 23 2025 04:14 LightSpectra wrote:Kilmar Abrego Garcia is free. Turns out MS Painting the words "MS-13" on a picture of someone isn't enough evidence to detain them indefinitely. What's wild is that now he can be deported again without trial. Constitutionally. What a joke country. meh, like most people who've lived around Toronto, Canada I have a few options in which country I can live. For me, and many hard working Canadians the USA is the best option. All these millions and millions of Albertans and Quebecers whining forever about separating from Canada and it'll prolly never happen. They can just leave for the USA. Big Red Sox//Yankees game tonight! USA! USA!. I'm really mad at the less taxes I'm going to have pay. I sure wish I was down there with you so I could pay more so the ultra rich could pay less! Im not as sure about his chances in the legal system as you are, but he should have been deported to somewhere he could legally be sent and that should have been the end of it. There was no legal basis for Garcia's deportation because the smuggling charges weren't yet resolved.
Neither me nor Acrofales is siding with Introvert. We are simply asking you to do better. We have both noticed something in your posting history that makes your posts less authoritative and your arguments significantly less effective. I will leave it here, take the feedback or don't, it's up to you.
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On August 25 2025 18:11 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2025 16:29 EnDeR_ wrote:On August 25 2025 16:16 Velr wrote:
Remote schooling has been an absolute disaster.
AI is just the cherry on top... I'm supposed to teach an apprentice how to write basic corporate letters to customers. The second she runs into a problem she asks Chatgpt to write it for her and doesn't even bother to check if it has actually written what it should and it's not even like she's using it "smart".... But at least there are less typos.
When she has to enter a Bill in our system she is basically totally uncapable of seeing which text would be usefull to note and instead writes random stuff that is on the bill (vat numbers, pointless article numbers... your imagination is the limit).
The total implosion of any basic windows/office skills combined with the attention span of a goldfish... She was actually very decent in school but I plain can't imagine how... It's just sad to see, can't imagine how bad students do.
She is years behind when compared to apprentices that finnished school before Covid. I blame remote schooling, AI, touchscreens/smartphones and tutorial videos replacing text based instructions. It's not even like her parents weren't "on the ball" or that she was a "screen-child" but the diffrence is staggering.
I teach apprentices since over 10 years, sometimes I had "bad" ones that needed a bit more support/time to learn stuff but in the end it allways worked out and they became reliable young adults that were a joy to work with. This is pretty much the first time it's not fun at all and I plain don't know how to make that girl "get it", my collegues that are also supposed to teach her stuff are scared to do so because she makes so many errors.
To be fair, incompetent students/interns have always been around. The key difference in my view is that their first instinct now is not to try to figure it out, but to ask the bot to solve it for them. When the bot can't do it, suddenly they have no idea where to start, even with very basic tasks. I can give you an example of one of my own PhD students (and he's actually one of the better ones). We were responding to a reviewer who had requested something that made no physical sense (probably text generated by the bot to begin with, but I digress). It was simple, they were asking about a process whose timescale was too short to influence the results. I asked the student to convert a diffusion constant into a timeframe to show this (simple multiply/divide operation when you know the geometry of the sample and material details, something that takes less than 2 minutes to do). For some reason the bot couldn't solve it or kept getting stupid answers, so he then spent a week searching the literature (with the bot, of course) for a reference of a measurement that gave the timeframe because he couldn't think how to do it otherwise. Yes, "bad" apprentices allways existet, but they never had these sorts of issues. If I had one that didn't do well in school before, they usually struggled in the educational/academic aspects, atleast in the beginning. Some were plain lazy or not actually interested. But now? You get academically "gifted" apprentices that decided to not go for collegue out of their own will and then still struggle with basic tasks I would expect a good student to easily do. I'm not talking rocket science here. It's accounting, contract law, ms-office basics, german (mothertongue), english and french. They struggle as if it's harder than the stuff they had to do in school, which it plain isn't. It's just presented a bit diffrent and the teachers don't/can't constantly hold their hands. Also, the issue isn't that she's using too much ChatGPT or Google. She uses it for stuff she got told you can use it for and uses it for that stuff totally uncritical, as if she thinks she is ousourcing all her work. Using it for something else? She seems to lack any imagination/understanding/idea... If stuff is not 100% pre chewed she is just immediatly lost. It's just strange/sad.
I've had project students like that pre-covid and pre-ChatGPT. Some students just can't seem to translate knowledge gained in one context and apply it into another. For example, the vast majority of students in physics/chemistry/engineering can integrate dy=a*dx/x no problem. Ask them to find the decay lifetime of a radioactive process and they're completely at sea (you integrate dt=-Lambda dN/N). Now they just ask the bot to solve it for them and don't have to think, which means they never actually learn to apply their knowledge. This, to me, is the problem.
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Being able to see the forest for the trees is quite a skill to have nowadays it seems.
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On August 25 2025 17:46 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2025 17:13 EnDeR_ wrote:On August 25 2025 16:43 Magic Powers wrote:On August 25 2025 07:58 Acrofales wrote:On August 25 2025 06:56 Magic Powers wrote:On August 25 2025 03:51 Falling wrote:
Yeah, as long as hallucinations remain, I don't see how I could us AI LLM as a source of information. LLM is good at generating content that matches the form of facts, but looks like a fact is not the same thing as a fact. Most of the time it does manage to come up with facts, but it cannot distinguish between fact and not fact. And so if you as a user are using it to gain knowledge, you cannot tell when it hallucinated as you don't know what you don't know. Replace "AI" with "Google" and you'd be equally right with all of that. It's not the tool that's the problem, it's the user. No, because if you come here and spout something ridiculous, get asked for sources and you say "I read it on breitbart", we laugh you out of the thread. Nobody says they read it on Google, because Google doesn't provide information (well, it's changing, and the AI overview has all of the same problems we highlighted above): Google provides access to information. You then have to inspect the websites it links to in order to see if that website says what you think it said, or you were actually wrong. If you were using ChatGPT in a similar way, and linking the sources it used to support your point, people might have laughed you out of the room for using breitbart as a source, but at least they'd know. And if your source was an eminent Yale professor citing various laws to argue the same thing you were, people would take that as mostly true. Instead you slapped a ChatGPT answer in here and called it a day. It's the laziest use of AI since some Trump PAC created Taylor Swift deepfakes. TLDR: you're wrong. Be better. No, I did it the other way around. I first googled and read articles about the case of Abrego Garcia. I fact checked the sources and the news articles. That's how I knew that the deportation was wrongful to begin with. Not just the method or the target location or the imprisonment. Only when I was asked specifically about the law regarding deportation to third countries - which is unrelated to Garcia's case - did I resort to using ChatGPT. My only mistake was that I fell for the goalpost shift. And you, in arguing so furiously with me, are aiding right-wing lies. You say things like '3rd country deportations are basically a favour to the deportee'. When pressed for sources, you resort to ChatGPT. In the past, you've also uncritically referenced stuff like Kristi Noem's White House blog to make your points because it was something that you agreed with. In general, you will take stuff you agree with as true and stuff you disagree with as false. This whole saga has little to do with right-wing lies and more about how you construct your arguments (poorly). Ah yes, because Introvert argued so much better. He did not. If you wanna pick any sides, picking his seems worse. He made a number of false claims and you didn't question him on that. For example. Show nested quote +On August 23 2025 07:06 Introvert wrote:On August 23 2025 06:48 Magic Powers wrote:On August 23 2025 04:14 LightSpectra wrote:Kilmar Abrego Garcia is free. Turns out MS Painting the words "MS-13" on a picture of someone isn't enough evidence to detain them indefinitely. What's wild is that now he can be deported again without trial. Constitutionally. What a joke country. He's still in the country illegally. That hasn't changed and was always the basis of his deportation. Expecting an entire jury trial for a removal would be the joke. That was in fact not the basis. It was the smuggling charges. But Introvert simply repeats the misinformation. Show nested quote +On August 23 2025 08:44 Introvert wrote:On August 23 2025 08:09 Magic Powers wrote:On August 23 2025 07:52 Introvert wrote:On August 23 2025 07:40 Magic Powers wrote:On August 23 2025 07:06 Introvert wrote:On August 23 2025 06:48 Magic Powers wrote:On August 23 2025 04:14 LightSpectra wrote:Kilmar Abrego Garcia is free. Turns out MS Painting the words "MS-13" on a picture of someone isn't enough evidence to detain them indefinitely. What's wild is that now he can be deported again without trial. Constitutionally. What a joke country. He's still in the country illegally. That hasn't changed and was always the basis of his deportation. Expecting an entire jury trial for a removal would be the joke. These illegal immigrants literally get jury trials to receive visa extensions or citizenship to prevent being deported. That's the top spot where ICE generally abducts them nowadays. Joke country. No? Immigration trials are before immigration judges which are article 2 judges (executive branch) not article 3 (judicial branch). At no point in American history had it been required to have a criminal jury trial to deport someone in the country illegally unless there was some other factor. A joke is thinking that sneaking across the border entitles you to the delays, due process, and legal protections of the criminal system. It'd be overwhelmed instantly. Just imagine if eveyone who Biden, being derelict at the border, let in, had to have a full jury trial to be deported. It's rediculous and easy to see why. Bruh. You brought up jury trials, not me. I thought you were talking about whatever regular trials they get summoned to. That's where ICE picks them up and abducts them. You know this. Imagine being an illegal person in a country that you take nothing from. You respect the law, you work, you even pay taxes, you're better than the typical citizen. And yet you get treated like trash. Well you said it was a joke he could be deported without a trial, but when we talked about this before I pointed out that he already had his normal immigration adjudication process and it was determined he could be deported. So I assumed you were talking about something else because otherwise what you said was just wrong. Imagine being someone who broke American law, lives in the country illegally and thinks that you shouldn't be concerned about being deported at any moment. How many countries, that presumably are not jokes, even puts up with illegal immigration as much as the US does. I've asked before, but you claim to not be for open borders yet it's hard to find a policy you support that isn't effectively open borders. On August 23 2025 08:09 Billyboy wrote:On August 23 2025 07:06 Introvert wrote:On August 23 2025 06:48 Magic Powers wrote:On August 23 2025 04:14 LightSpectra wrote:Kilmar Abrego Garcia is free. Turns out MS Painting the words "MS-13" on a picture of someone isn't enough evidence to detain them indefinitely. What's wild is that now he can be deported again without trial. Constitutionally. What a joke country. He's still in the country illegally. That hasn't changed and was always the basis of his deportation. Expecting an entire jury trial for a removal would be the joke. What do you think the final price tag on this giant fuck up is going to be? And do not forget to add all the new legal costs from the civil suit he will most certainly win. On August 23 2025 07:06 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Canada is removing most retaliatory tariffs against the USA. It'll be a big win once the LCBO opens back up their shelves to American products. The anti-USA hate is waning. The Toronto BLue Jays are a 100% American product and the entire country is just gobbling up their pennant run. Every city the Blue Jays visit has thousands of Canadian fans at the games. The WNBA managed to sell out a full sized NBA arena in a regular season game in Canada. Canadians loves "America's Past Time". They just can't help themselves. The Blue Jays were a much cooler team when they were distinctly un-American. Oh well. LOL. Big Win for the USA today. On August 23 2025 06:48 Magic Powers wrote:On August 23 2025 04:14 LightSpectra wrote:Kilmar Abrego Garcia is free. Turns out MS Painting the words "MS-13" on a picture of someone isn't enough evidence to detain them indefinitely. What's wild is that now he can be deported again without trial. Constitutionally. What a joke country. meh, like most people who've lived around Toronto, Canada I have a few options in which country I can live. For me, and many hard working Canadians the USA is the best option. All these millions and millions of Albertans and Quebecers whining forever about separating from Canada and it'll prolly never happen. They can just leave for the USA. Big Red Sox//Yankees game tonight! USA! USA!. I'm really mad at the less taxes I'm going to have pay. I sure wish I was down there with you so I could pay more so the ultra rich could pay less! Im not as sure about his chances in the legal system as you are, but he should have been deported to somewhere he could legally be sent and that should have been the end of it. There was no legal basis for Garcia's deportation because the smuggling charges weren't yet resolved.
Wait that's your argument? The smuggling charges didn’t occur until after he was deported. I hate to hop back in here but your argument is worse than I thought.
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On August 25 2025 21:48 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2025 17:46 Magic Powers wrote:On August 25 2025 17:13 EnDeR_ wrote:On August 25 2025 16:43 Magic Powers wrote:On August 25 2025 07:58 Acrofales wrote:On August 25 2025 06:56 Magic Powers wrote:On August 25 2025 03:51 Falling wrote:
Yeah, as long as hallucinations remain, I don't see how I could us AI LLM as a source of information. LLM is good at generating content that matches the form of facts, but looks like a fact is not the same thing as a fact. Most of the time it does manage to come up with facts, but it cannot distinguish between fact and not fact. And so if you as a user are using it to gain knowledge, you cannot tell when it hallucinated as you don't know what you don't know. Replace "AI" with "Google" and you'd be equally right with all of that. It's not the tool that's the problem, it's the user. No, because if you come here and spout something ridiculous, get asked for sources and you say "I read it on breitbart", we laugh you out of the thread. Nobody says they read it on Google, because Google doesn't provide information (well, it's changing, and the AI overview has all of the same problems we highlighted above): Google provides access to information. You then have to inspect the websites it links to in order to see if that website says what you think it said, or you were actually wrong. If you were using ChatGPT in a similar way, and linking the sources it used to support your point, people might have laughed you out of the room for using breitbart as a source, but at least they'd know. And if your source was an eminent Yale professor citing various laws to argue the same thing you were, people would take that as mostly true. Instead you slapped a ChatGPT answer in here and called it a day. It's the laziest use of AI since some Trump PAC created Taylor Swift deepfakes. TLDR: you're wrong. Be better. No, I did it the other way around. I first googled and read articles about the case of Abrego Garcia. I fact checked the sources and the news articles. That's how I knew that the deportation was wrongful to begin with. Not just the method or the target location or the imprisonment. Only when I was asked specifically about the law regarding deportation to third countries - which is unrelated to Garcia's case - did I resort to using ChatGPT. My only mistake was that I fell for the goalpost shift. And you, in arguing so furiously with me, are aiding right-wing lies. You say things like '3rd country deportations are basically a favour to the deportee'. When pressed for sources, you resort to ChatGPT. In the past, you've also uncritically referenced stuff like Kristi Noem's White House blog to make your points because it was something that you agreed with. In general, you will take stuff you agree with as true and stuff you disagree with as false. This whole saga has little to do with right-wing lies and more about how you construct your arguments (poorly). Ah yes, because Introvert argued so much better. He did not. If you wanna pick any sides, picking his seems worse. He made a number of false claims and you didn't question him on that. For example. On August 23 2025 07:06 Introvert wrote:On August 23 2025 06:48 Magic Powers wrote:On August 23 2025 04:14 LightSpectra wrote:Kilmar Abrego Garcia is free. Turns out MS Painting the words "MS-13" on a picture of someone isn't enough evidence to detain them indefinitely. What's wild is that now he can be deported again without trial. Constitutionally. What a joke country. He's still in the country illegally. That hasn't changed and was always the basis of his deportation. Expecting an entire jury trial for a removal would be the joke. That was in fact not the basis. It was the smuggling charges. But Introvert simply repeats the misinformation. On August 23 2025 08:44 Introvert wrote:On August 23 2025 08:09 Magic Powers wrote:On August 23 2025 07:52 Introvert wrote:On August 23 2025 07:40 Magic Powers wrote:On August 23 2025 07:06 Introvert wrote:On August 23 2025 06:48 Magic Powers wrote:On August 23 2025 04:14 LightSpectra wrote:Kilmar Abrego Garcia is free. Turns out MS Painting the words "MS-13" on a picture of someone isn't enough evidence to detain them indefinitely. What's wild is that now he can be deported again without trial. Constitutionally. What a joke country. He's still in the country illegally. That hasn't changed and was always the basis of his deportation. Expecting an entire jury trial for a removal would be the joke. These illegal immigrants literally get jury trials to receive visa extensions or citizenship to prevent being deported. That's the top spot where ICE generally abducts them nowadays. Joke country. No? Immigration trials are before immigration judges which are article 2 judges (executive branch) not article 3 (judicial branch). At no point in American history had it been required to have a criminal jury trial to deport someone in the country illegally unless there was some other factor. A joke is thinking that sneaking across the border entitles you to the delays, due process, and legal protections of the criminal system. It'd be overwhelmed instantly. Just imagine if eveyone who Biden, being derelict at the border, let in, had to have a full jury trial to be deported. It's rediculous and easy to see why. Bruh. You brought up jury trials, not me. I thought you were talking about whatever regular trials they get summoned to. That's where ICE picks them up and abducts them. You know this. Imagine being an illegal person in a country that you take nothing from. You respect the law, you work, you even pay taxes, you're better than the typical citizen. And yet you get treated like trash. Well you said it was a joke he could be deported without a trial, but when we talked about this before I pointed out that he already had his normal immigration adjudication process and it was determined he could be deported. So I assumed you were talking about something else because otherwise what you said was just wrong. Imagine being someone who broke American law, lives in the country illegally and thinks that you shouldn't be concerned about being deported at any moment. How many countries, that presumably are not jokes, even puts up with illegal immigration as much as the US does. I've asked before, but you claim to not be for open borders yet it's hard to find a policy you support that isn't effectively open borders. On August 23 2025 08:09 Billyboy wrote:On August 23 2025 07:06 Introvert wrote:On August 23 2025 06:48 Magic Powers wrote:On August 23 2025 04:14 LightSpectra wrote:Kilmar Abrego Garcia is free. Turns out MS Painting the words "MS-13" on a picture of someone isn't enough evidence to detain them indefinitely. What's wild is that now he can be deported again without trial. Constitutionally. What a joke country. He's still in the country illegally. That hasn't changed and was always the basis of his deportation. Expecting an entire jury trial for a removal would be the joke. What do you think the final price tag on this giant fuck up is going to be? And do not forget to add all the new legal costs from the civil suit he will most certainly win. On August 23 2025 07:06 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Canada is removing most retaliatory tariffs against the USA. It'll be a big win once the LCBO opens back up their shelves to American products. The anti-USA hate is waning. The Toronto BLue Jays are a 100% American product and the entire country is just gobbling up their pennant run. Every city the Blue Jays visit has thousands of Canadian fans at the games. The WNBA managed to sell out a full sized NBA arena in a regular season game in Canada. Canadians loves "America's Past Time". They just can't help themselves. The Blue Jays were a much cooler team when they were distinctly un-American. Oh well. LOL. Big Win for the USA today. On August 23 2025 06:48 Magic Powers wrote:On August 23 2025 04:14 LightSpectra wrote:Kilmar Abrego Garcia is free. Turns out MS Painting the words "MS-13" on a picture of someone isn't enough evidence to detain them indefinitely. What's wild is that now he can be deported again without trial. Constitutionally. What a joke country. meh, like most people who've lived around Toronto, Canada I have a few options in which country I can live. For me, and many hard working Canadians the USA is the best option. All these millions and millions of Albertans and Quebecers whining forever about separating from Canada and it'll prolly never happen. They can just leave for the USA. Big Red Sox//Yankees game tonight! USA! USA!. I'm really mad at the less taxes I'm going to have pay. I sure wish I was down there with you so I could pay more so the ultra rich could pay less! Im not as sure about his chances in the legal system as you are, but he should have been deported to somewhere he could legally be sent and that should have been the end of it. There was no legal basis for Garcia's deportation because the smuggling charges weren't yet resolved. Wait that's your argument? The smuggling charges didn’t occur until after he was deported. I hate to hop back in here but your argument is worse than I thought.
If he was in fact charged with smuggling after being abducted, then his whole deportation case was even more wrongful. That means he was first wrongly accused of gang association, then abducted and imprisoned (where he allegedly faced physical violence) in violation of a court ruling, then wrongfully charged with human smuggling from 2022.
No matter how much the information changes, it only looks worse and worse for Trump's America. It looks more and more like a joke country. You can't possibly tell me that you're making a good argument for Garcia's deportation. The way he was treated was blatantly criminal from start to finish.
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On August 25 2025 22:30 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2025 21:48 Introvert wrote:On August 25 2025 17:46 Magic Powers wrote:On August 25 2025 17:13 EnDeR_ wrote:On August 25 2025 16:43 Magic Powers wrote:On August 25 2025 07:58 Acrofales wrote:On August 25 2025 06:56 Magic Powers wrote:On August 25 2025 03:51 Falling wrote:
Yeah, as long as hallucinations remain, I don't see how I could us AI LLM as a source of information. LLM is good at generating content that matches the form of facts, but looks like a fact is not the same thing as a fact. Most of the time it does manage to come up with facts, but it cannot distinguish between fact and not fact. And so if you as a user are using it to gain knowledge, you cannot tell when it hallucinated as you don't know what you don't know. Replace "AI" with "Google" and you'd be equally right with all of that. It's not the tool that's the problem, it's the user. No, because if you come here and spout something ridiculous, get asked for sources and you say "I read it on breitbart", we laugh you out of the thread. Nobody says they read it on Google, because Google doesn't provide information (well, it's changing, and the AI overview has all of the same problems we highlighted above): Google provides access to information. You then have to inspect the websites it links to in order to see if that website says what you think it said, or you were actually wrong. If you were using ChatGPT in a similar way, and linking the sources it used to support your point, people might have laughed you out of the room for using breitbart as a source, but at least they'd know. And if your source was an eminent Yale professor citing various laws to argue the same thing you were, people would take that as mostly true. Instead you slapped a ChatGPT answer in here and called it a day. It's the laziest use of AI since some Trump PAC created Taylor Swift deepfakes. TLDR: you're wrong. Be better. No, I did it the other way around. I first googled and read articles about the case of Abrego Garcia. I fact checked the sources and the news articles. That's how I knew that the deportation was wrongful to begin with. Not just the method or the target location or the imprisonment. Only when I was asked specifically about the law regarding deportation to third countries - which is unrelated to Garcia's case - did I resort to using ChatGPT. My only mistake was that I fell for the goalpost shift. And you, in arguing so furiously with me, are aiding right-wing lies. You say things like '3rd country deportations are basically a favour to the deportee'. When pressed for sources, you resort to ChatGPT. In the past, you've also uncritically referenced stuff like Kristi Noem's White House blog to make your points because it was something that you agreed with. In general, you will take stuff you agree with as true and stuff you disagree with as false. This whole saga has little to do with right-wing lies and more about how you construct your arguments (poorly). Ah yes, because Introvert argued so much better. He did not. If you wanna pick any sides, picking his seems worse. He made a number of false claims and you didn't question him on that. For example. On August 23 2025 07:06 Introvert wrote:On August 23 2025 06:48 Magic Powers wrote:On August 23 2025 04:14 LightSpectra wrote:Kilmar Abrego Garcia is free. Turns out MS Painting the words "MS-13" on a picture of someone isn't enough evidence to detain them indefinitely. What's wild is that now he can be deported again without trial. Constitutionally. What a joke country. He's still in the country illegally. That hasn't changed and was always the basis of his deportation. Expecting an entire jury trial for a removal would be the joke. That was in fact not the basis. It was the smuggling charges. But Introvert simply repeats the misinformation. On August 23 2025 08:44 Introvert wrote:On August 23 2025 08:09 Magic Powers wrote:On August 23 2025 07:52 Introvert wrote:On August 23 2025 07:40 Magic Powers wrote:On August 23 2025 07:06 Introvert wrote:On August 23 2025 06:48 Magic Powers wrote:On August 23 2025 04:14 LightSpectra wrote:Kilmar Abrego Garcia is free. Turns out MS Painting the words "MS-13" on a picture of someone isn't enough evidence to detain them indefinitely. What's wild is that now he can be deported again without trial. Constitutionally. What a joke country. He's still in the country illegally. That hasn't changed and was always the basis of his deportation. Expecting an entire jury trial for a removal would be the joke. These illegal immigrants literally get jury trials to receive visa extensions or citizenship to prevent being deported. That's the top spot where ICE generally abducts them nowadays. Joke country. No? Immigration trials are before immigration judges which are article 2 judges (executive branch) not article 3 (judicial branch). At no point in American history had it been required to have a criminal jury trial to deport someone in the country illegally unless there was some other factor. A joke is thinking that sneaking across the border entitles you to the delays, due process, and legal protections of the criminal system. It'd be overwhelmed instantly. Just imagine if eveyone who Biden, being derelict at the border, let in, had to have a full jury trial to be deported. It's rediculous and easy to see why. Bruh. You brought up jury trials, not me. I thought you were talking about whatever regular trials they get summoned to. That's where ICE picks them up and abducts them. You know this. Imagine being an illegal person in a country that you take nothing from. You respect the law, you work, you even pay taxes, you're better than the typical citizen. And yet you get treated like trash. Well you said it was a joke he could be deported without a trial, but when we talked about this before I pointed out that he already had his normal immigration adjudication process and it was determined he could be deported. So I assumed you were talking about something else because otherwise what you said was just wrong. Imagine being someone who broke American law, lives in the country illegally and thinks that you shouldn't be concerned about being deported at any moment. How many countries, that presumably are not jokes, even puts up with illegal immigration as much as the US does. I've asked before, but you claim to not be for open borders yet it's hard to find a policy you support that isn't effectively open borders. On August 23 2025 08:09 Billyboy wrote:On August 23 2025 07:06 Introvert wrote:On August 23 2025 06:48 Magic Powers wrote:On August 23 2025 04:14 LightSpectra wrote:Kilmar Abrego Garcia is free. Turns out MS Painting the words "MS-13" on a picture of someone isn't enough evidence to detain them indefinitely. What's wild is that now he can be deported again without trial. Constitutionally. What a joke country. He's still in the country illegally. That hasn't changed and was always the basis of his deportation. Expecting an entire jury trial for a removal would be the joke. What do you think the final price tag on this giant fuck up is going to be? And do not forget to add all the new legal costs from the civil suit he will most certainly win. On August 23 2025 07:06 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Canada is removing most retaliatory tariffs against the USA. It'll be a big win once the LCBO opens back up their shelves to American products. The anti-USA hate is waning. The Toronto BLue Jays are a 100% American product and the entire country is just gobbling up their pennant run. Every city the Blue Jays visit has thousands of Canadian fans at the games. The WNBA managed to sell out a full sized NBA arena in a regular season game in Canada. Canadians loves "America's Past Time". They just can't help themselves. The Blue Jays were a much cooler team when they were distinctly un-American. Oh well. LOL. Big Win for the USA today. On August 23 2025 06:48 Magic Powers wrote:On August 23 2025 04:14 LightSpectra wrote:Kilmar Abrego Garcia is free. Turns out MS Painting the words "MS-13" on a picture of someone isn't enough evidence to detain them indefinitely. What's wild is that now he can be deported again without trial. Constitutionally. What a joke country. meh, like most people who've lived around Toronto, Canada I have a few options in which country I can live. For me, and many hard working Canadians the USA is the best option. All these millions and millions of Albertans and Quebecers whining forever about separating from Canada and it'll prolly never happen. They can just leave for the USA. Big Red Sox//Yankees game tonight! USA! USA!. I'm really mad at the less taxes I'm going to have pay. I sure wish I was down there with you so I could pay more so the ultra rich could pay less! Im not as sure about his chances in the legal system as you are, but he should have been deported to somewhere he could legally be sent and that should have been the end of it. There was no legal basis for Garcia's deportation because the smuggling charges weren't yet resolved. Wait that's your argument? The smuggling charges didn’t occur until after he was deported. I hate to hop back in here but your argument is worse than I thought. If he was in fact charged with smuggling after being abducted, then his whole deportation case was even more wrongful. That means he was first wrongly accused of gang association, then abducted and imprisoned (where he allegedly faced physical violence) in violation of a court ruling, then wrongfully charged with human smuggling from 2022. No matter how much the information changes, it only looks worse and worse for Trump's America. It looks more and more like a joke country. You can't possibly tell me that you're making a good argument for Garcia's deportation. The way he was treated was blatantly criminal from start to finish.
I just don't know how you can take me to task for being wrong on the facts, and specifically cite the smuggling charge, while positing a theory that is impossible because time doesn't run backwards. I suspect you know as little about this case as you do about Ameican immigration law in general. The good argument for his deportation is that he was here illegally and had an active order for his deportation. The potential gang links are just icing on the cake for public consumption.
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United States43989 Posts
MP, I think you need to make within your posts clear which parts are your own ideological moral beliefs (nobody should be deported from anywhere, immigration crimes are not crimes) and which are statements of legal fact. The legal facts are that under the current immigration laws he should have been deported because he was breaking the law. Your belief is that he shouldn’t have been, not because that law doesn’t exist, but because you believe it shouldn’t exist.
Without clarifying that you’re just talking past each other. Introvert is saying what the law is and you’re saying what the law should be but you’re using language that presents your opinion of what the law should be as your understanding of what the law is.
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On August 25 2025 22:58 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2025 22:30 Magic Powers wrote:On August 25 2025 21:48 Introvert wrote:On August 25 2025 17:46 Magic Powers wrote:On August 25 2025 17:13 EnDeR_ wrote:On August 25 2025 16:43 Magic Powers wrote:On August 25 2025 07:58 Acrofales wrote:On August 25 2025 06:56 Magic Powers wrote:On August 25 2025 03:51 Falling wrote:
Yeah, as long as hallucinations remain, I don't see how I could us AI LLM as a source of information. LLM is good at generating content that matches the form of facts, but looks like a fact is not the same thing as a fact. Most of the time it does manage to come up with facts, but it cannot distinguish between fact and not fact. And so if you as a user are using it to gain knowledge, you cannot tell when it hallucinated as you don't know what you don't know. Replace "AI" with "Google" and you'd be equally right with all of that. It's not the tool that's the problem, it's the user. No, because if you come here and spout something ridiculous, get asked for sources and you say "I read it on breitbart", we laugh you out of the thread. Nobody says they read it on Google, because Google doesn't provide information (well, it's changing, and the AI overview has all of the same problems we highlighted above): Google provides access to information. You then have to inspect the websites it links to in order to see if that website says what you think it said, or you were actually wrong. If you were using ChatGPT in a similar way, and linking the sources it used to support your point, people might have laughed you out of the room for using breitbart as a source, but at least they'd know. And if your source was an eminent Yale professor citing various laws to argue the same thing you were, people would take that as mostly true. Instead you slapped a ChatGPT answer in here and called it a day. It's the laziest use of AI since some Trump PAC created Taylor Swift deepfakes. TLDR: you're wrong. Be better. No, I did it the other way around. I first googled and read articles about the case of Abrego Garcia. I fact checked the sources and the news articles. That's how I knew that the deportation was wrongful to begin with. Not just the method or the target location or the imprisonment. Only when I was asked specifically about the law regarding deportation to third countries - which is unrelated to Garcia's case - did I resort to using ChatGPT. My only mistake was that I fell for the goalpost shift. And you, in arguing so furiously with me, are aiding right-wing lies. You say things like '3rd country deportations are basically a favour to the deportee'. When pressed for sources, you resort to ChatGPT. In the past, you've also uncritically referenced stuff like Kristi Noem's White House blog to make your points because it was something that you agreed with. In general, you will take stuff you agree with as true and stuff you disagree with as false. This whole saga has little to do with right-wing lies and more about how you construct your arguments (poorly). Ah yes, because Introvert argued so much better. He did not. If you wanna pick any sides, picking his seems worse. He made a number of false claims and you didn't question him on that. For example. On August 23 2025 07:06 Introvert wrote:On August 23 2025 06:48 Magic Powers wrote:On August 23 2025 04:14 LightSpectra wrote:Kilmar Abrego Garcia is free. Turns out MS Painting the words "MS-13" on a picture of someone isn't enough evidence to detain them indefinitely. What's wild is that now he can be deported again without trial. Constitutionally. What a joke country. He's still in the country illegally. That hasn't changed and was always the basis of his deportation. Expecting an entire jury trial for a removal would be the joke. That was in fact not the basis. It was the smuggling charges. But Introvert simply repeats the misinformation. On August 23 2025 08:44 Introvert wrote:On August 23 2025 08:09 Magic Powers wrote:On August 23 2025 07:52 Introvert wrote:On August 23 2025 07:40 Magic Powers wrote:On August 23 2025 07:06 Introvert wrote:On August 23 2025 06:48 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
What's wild is that now he can be deported again without trial. Constitutionally. What a joke country. He's still in the country illegally. That hasn't changed and was always the basis of his deportation. Expecting an entire jury trial for a removal would be the joke. These illegal immigrants literally get jury trials to receive visa extensions or citizenship to prevent being deported. That's the top spot where ICE generally abducts them nowadays. Joke country. No? Immigration trials are before immigration judges which are article 2 judges (executive branch) not article 3 (judicial branch). At no point in American history had it been required to have a criminal jury trial to deport someone in the country illegally unless there was some other factor. A joke is thinking that sneaking across the border entitles you to the delays, due process, and legal protections of the criminal system. It'd be overwhelmed instantly. Just imagine if eveyone who Biden, being derelict at the border, let in, had to have a full jury trial to be deported. It's rediculous and easy to see why. Bruh. You brought up jury trials, not me. I thought you were talking about whatever regular trials they get summoned to. That's where ICE picks them up and abducts them. You know this. Imagine being an illegal person in a country that you take nothing from. You respect the law, you work, you even pay taxes, you're better than the typical citizen. And yet you get treated like trash. Well you said it was a joke he could be deported without a trial, but when we talked about this before I pointed out that he already had his normal immigration adjudication process and it was determined he could be deported. So I assumed you were talking about something else because otherwise what you said was just wrong. Imagine being someone who broke American law, lives in the country illegally and thinks that you shouldn't be concerned about being deported at any moment. How many countries, that presumably are not jokes, even puts up with illegal immigration as much as the US does. I've asked before, but you claim to not be for open borders yet it's hard to find a policy you support that isn't effectively open borders. On August 23 2025 08:09 Billyboy wrote:On August 23 2025 07:06 Introvert wrote:On August 23 2025 06:48 Magic Powers wrote:On August 23 2025 04:14 LightSpectra wrote:Kilmar Abrego Garcia is free. Turns out MS Painting the words "MS-13" on a picture of someone isn't enough evidence to detain them indefinitely. What's wild is that now he can be deported again without trial. Constitutionally. What a joke country. He's still in the country illegally. That hasn't changed and was always the basis of his deportation. Expecting an entire jury trial for a removal would be the joke. What do you think the final price tag on this giant fuck up is going to be? And do not forget to add all the new legal costs from the civil suit he will most certainly win. On August 23 2025 07:06 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Canada is removing most retaliatory tariffs against the USA. It'll be a big win once the LCBO opens back up their shelves to American products. The anti-USA hate is waning. The Toronto BLue Jays are a 100% American product and the entire country is just gobbling up their pennant run. Every city the Blue Jays visit has thousands of Canadian fans at the games. The WNBA managed to sell out a full sized NBA arena in a regular season game in Canada. Canadians loves "America's Past Time". They just can't help themselves. The Blue Jays were a much cooler team when they were distinctly un-American. Oh well. LOL. Big Win for the USA today. On August 23 2025 06:48 Magic Powers wrote:On August 23 2025 04:14 LightSpectra wrote:Kilmar Abrego Garcia is free. Turns out MS Painting the words "MS-13" on a picture of someone isn't enough evidence to detain them indefinitely. What's wild is that now he can be deported again without trial. Constitutionally. What a joke country. meh, like most people who've lived around Toronto, Canada I have a few options in which country I can live. For me, and many hard working Canadians the USA is the best option. All these millions and millions of Albertans and Quebecers whining forever about separating from Canada and it'll prolly never happen. They can just leave for the USA. Big Red Sox//Yankees game tonight! USA! USA!. I'm really mad at the less taxes I'm going to have pay. I sure wish I was down there with you so I could pay more so the ultra rich could pay less! Im not as sure about his chances in the legal system as you are, but he should have been deported to somewhere he could legally be sent and that should have been the end of it. There was no legal basis for Garcia's deportation because the smuggling charges weren't yet resolved. Wait that's your argument? The smuggling charges didn’t occur until after he was deported. I hate to hop back in here but your argument is worse than I thought. If he was in fact charged with smuggling after being abducted, then his whole deportation case was even more wrongful. That means he was first wrongly accused of gang association, then abducted and imprisoned (where he allegedly faced physical violence) in violation of a court ruling, then wrongfully charged with human smuggling from 2022. No matter how much the information changes, it only looks worse and worse for Trump's America. It looks more and more like a joke country. You can't possibly tell me that you're making a good argument for Garcia's deportation. The way he was treated was blatantly criminal from start to finish. I just don't know how you can take me to task for being wrong on the facts, and specifically cite the smuggling charge, while positing a theory that is impossible because time doesn't run backwards. I suspect you know as little about this case as you do about Ameican immigration law in general. The good argument for his deportation is that he was here illegally and had an active order for his deportation. The potential gang links are just icing on the cake for public consumption.
If you wanted to lecture me on this case being even more wrongful than I thought it was, then you made a great effort never to mention that it's even worse. You instead did the exact opposite, trying to paint the deportation case as lawful, which it was not. It was reported that it wasn't lawful. The court ruling made it unlawful.
If you just want to argue about things that don't matter, then I'm the wrong person to argue with. I said recently I'm more of a big picture person, and in contrast someone like BJ is more of a fact-oriented person. That means I may get a detail wrong on occasion, but I get the bigger picture right more often. If you just want to argue details, then do it with someone else.
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On August 25 2025 23:02 KwarK wrote:
MP, I think you need to make within your posts clear which parts are your own ideological moral beliefs (nobody should be deported from anywhere, immigration crimes are not crimes) and which are statements of legal fact. The legal facts are that under the current immigration laws he should have been deported because he was breaking the law. Your belief is that he shouldn’t have been, not because that law doesn’t exist, but because you believe it shouldn’t exist.
Without clarifying that you’re just talking past each other. Introvert is saying what the law is and you’re saying what the law should be but you’re using language that presents your opinion of what the law should be as your understanding of what the law is.
I'm arguing what the court argued. The court argued for no deportation, that was a ruling. This ruling made any and all deportation of Garcia unlawful. Introvert never acknowledged that. Why should I give in to Introvert's argument if he doesn't acknowledge such a basic fact? He's not any more right about the details than I am. People are somehow focusing more on whether I misunderstood something and nobody's focusing on Introvert's misunderstanding. This makes no sense. Explain.
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United States43989 Posts
On August 25 2025 23:07 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2025 23:02 KwarK wrote:
MP, I think you need to make within your posts clear which parts are your own ideological moral beliefs (nobody should be deported from anywhere, immigration crimes are not crimes) and which are statements of legal fact. The legal facts are that under the current immigration laws he should have been deported because he was breaking the law. Your belief is that he shouldn’t have been, not because that law doesn’t exist, but because you believe it shouldn’t exist.
Without clarifying that you’re just talking past each other. Introvert is saying what the law is and you’re saying what the law should be but you’re using language that presents your opinion of what the law should be as your understanding of what the law is. I'm arguing what the court argued. The court argued for no deportation, that was a ruling. This ruling made any and all deportation of Garcia unlawful. Introvert never acknowledged that. Why should I give in to Introvert's argument if he doesn't acknowledge such a basic fact? He's not any more right about the details than I am. People are somehow focusing more on whether I misunderstood something and nobody's focusing on Introvert's misunderstanding. This makes no sense. Explain.
The court ruled that he should not be sent to El Salvador due to fears of persecution there. The court did not give him a Green Card nor any kind of resident alien status. The court did not rule his presence in the US to be legal. Simply that El Salvador wasn't the right place to send him.
Those are two separate issues.
In theory citizens are the responsibility of the government of the nation of which they have citizenship. If you find someone else's citizens in your country illegally you just let that government know that you found their people and that you'll swing by their house and leave them on the porch. They can take it from there.
The problem is some nations aren't responsible enough to take care of their citizens which is when asylum claims kick in. Sometimes people in your country will say, for example, "sure, I'm here illegally, because I'm a political dissident and I'm fleeing Cuba" and you don't really want to phone up Castro and say "I found your dissident, I'll drop him off later". But there's a mechanism for that, an asylum claim, and people who are granted asylum are given legal resident status.
Garcia was not. The administration should have worked out a better plan for what to do with him than nothing at all. And obviously Trump's administration should have done better than MS Painting gang member onto a photo of him and sending him to a prison colony. Whatever the right answer is, we know that that's definitely a wrong one.
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EPT
