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On June 23 2025 07:45 LightSpectra wrote:
Yeah, that's my perspective. If we imagine a spectrum where positive values make the world better and negative values make the world worse, where Trump is -10 and Bernie Sanders is +10, and 0 is a hard maintenance or the status quo, then people like Clinton and Biden are still on the positive end of the spectrum. We could debate if they're closer to +9 or +1, but they certainly are way higher than every Republican would be. If someone refuses to vote for a +5 because they'll settle for nothing lower than +10 and thus passively allows the -10 to win, they're sabotaging their own interests.
This is generally my perspective as well, though of course I'd like a president to be as close to +10 as possible.
From conversations with other TLers, I've learned that not everyone believes the Democratic nominee is even on the "plus" side though, and/or that the lesser of two evils is not a persuasive enough argument for all, and/or that a few tiny "plus" presidencies still can't create enough momentum to balance out the very extreme "minus" presidencies (which can slowly shift the Overton window and/or general political power to the right - like how three straight +1 terms wouldn't be sufficient to beat/override one terrible -10 term).
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On June 23 2025 07:53 Zambrah wrote:
The anti-leftists here are as worth talking to as oBlade, fuck me Ive been talking to squirrels.
How do you decide/define who is anti-left?
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On June 23 2025 08:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2025 07:53 Zambrah wrote:
The anti-leftists here are as worth talking to as oBlade, fuck me Ive been talking to squirrels. How do you decide/define who is anti-left?
This will vary person to person of course. Personally, it’s Luigi. Forgot his name, but the Harris VP guy speaking out against Luigi was the reason I officially left the party and have no plans to vote for democrats again. I’ll vote for the lesser evil if somehow Oregon is a close race. And I’m entirely open to them winning me back. But I also understand I’m just some random dude and it’s not like they need me.
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What would you do if you found out Luigi was against bombing Iran?
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I'm not sure that murdering someone in cold blood, no matter who they are is a left right thing. It is more a morality question. Naming oneself judge jury and executioner tends to rub some people from both sides wrong for a whole bunch of reasons.
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On June 23 2025 08:10 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2025 08:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 23 2025 07:53 Zambrah wrote:
The anti-leftists here are as worth talking to as oBlade, fuck me Ive been talking to squirrels. How do you decide/define who is anti-left? This will vary person to person of course. Personally, it’s Luigi. Forgot his name, but the Harris VP guy speaking out against Luigi was the reason I officially left the party and have no plans to vote for democrats again. I’ll vote for the lesser evil if somehow Oregon is a close race. And I’m entirely open to them winning me back. But I also understand I’m just some random dude and it’s not like they need me.
Tim Walz was Harris's runningmate. Why was Walz speaking out against Luigi Mangione murdering Brian Thompson the reason why you left the party?
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Northern Ireland24962 Posts
On June 23 2025 08:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2025 07:53 Zambrah wrote:
The anti-leftists here are as worth talking to as oBlade, fuck me Ive been talking to squirrels. How do you decide/define who is anti-left?
Quite a lot if we’re talking the left as socialism/socialism-adjacent, not very many if we’re talking left of the centre and outwards I suppose.
Depends where you’re initially standing. I mean for me being quite far left, I’d consider a lot of centrist thru centre left politics as acceptable but not ideal, thru antithetical to mine.
Anyway aye it can certainly be frustrating to be in that area of the left/right axis and kinda seeing the same shit over, and over, and over (and sometimes over) again. In my case for about 20 years since I really took a close interest in politics.
Centrist and liberal politics are pretty well catered for, if they’re your politics, there’s always rather a lot at the electoral banquet for you. Indeed, this is just the default.
If you’re on the left, you will be summoned to the electoral banquet at or shamed for not turning up, but you get there and sit down and there’s fuck all on your plate.
It’s the 1-2 punch that’s frustrating. You’re like Schrodinger’s leftist, important enough to be blamed for lost elections, not important enough to actually court your vote.
I do differ from my erstwhile ‘colleagues’ as it were in that I think my native UK, and even more so the US, most don’t share my politics. Appealing broadly and to the centre in general makes sense. It just reflects reality on many grounds.
But if you’re in a de facto two-party state, and part of your coalition are progressives, even if they’re merely a sizeable minority, you do need them on board as well.
Which is definitely an area for improvement from the Democratic Party.
Went a bit rambly as per. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to get frustrated if from one’s perspective you see the same mistakes made over and over.
As an aside, you might get something that scrapes over the electoral line, but rarely it seems, something that enthuses. Party A scrapes in, doesn’t govern disastrously, but nothing super sexy to hang their hat in. Come next election Party B wins because of incumbency fatigue, then the cycle repeats etc.
UK Labour are really feeling that pinch now. They actively purged the party of its left wing, previous leader, pivoted centre because of course you must do that to win elections. They’ve shed a fuckload of goodwill from their base, and have grabbed some votes from the centre, but voters that can flip on a dime again.
And it is, because yeah they got votes but folks aren’t particularly invested, and the first signs of trouble they’ll flip.
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On June 23 2025 08:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2025 07:53 Zambrah wrote:
The anti-leftists here are as worth talking to as oBlade, fuck me Ive been talking to squirrels. How do you decide/define who is anti-left?
At this point if someone does nothing but whine that the Democrats are just too far left and should just appeal to the right or centrists more than they already do then I’m labeling them an anti-leftist.
Doubly so when they strawman my positions by implying that I think that the list of things I think Democrats should do to win boils down to OnE sImPlE lIFe HaCk like I haven’t said numerous times it’s a hard complex road towards the kind of change I believe Democrats need.
They can’t even be bothered to read what I’m saying because they have a weird strawman leftist in their head that they staple on to everyone that isn’t a basic bitch Democrat.
I don’t give me time to right wing freaks because I don’t believe they engage in good faith, at this point I think that of the people I’m labeling anti-leftist here too.
This thread is a huge source of dismay for me, one positive event like Zohran, a sliver of hope in a dim world and I’m reminded that the Democrats and their base of supporters and allies are immovable, they do nothing wrong, just like the Republicans their only interest seems to be to kick to their left, but while Republicans laugh while they do it Democrats scowl and complain that the left doesn’t love them enough.
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On June 22 2025 19:49 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2025 15:08 tankgirl wrote:I never post here or even read the newspapers anymore but I couldnt escape the headlines. I am not informed enough to have an opinion on this complex issue. But after 20+ years of Iran's shenanigan, I am just grateful we finally have a strong Commander in Chief. On June 22 2025 12:37 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
In the same single tweet, Trump both bragged about dropping "a full payload of BOMBS" and shouted "NOW IS THE TIME FOR PEACE".
Don't need Twitter to be reminded that's what our president is doing. Someone graciously printed it on the backs of our one-dollar bill, which we exchange with our hands daily: + Show Spoiler [imgur] + First of all, “E pluribus unum” has nothing to do with hypocritically bombing Iran while asking for peace.
You're right. I guess the giant eagle with an olive branch and quiver of arrows flew over your head.
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On June 23 2025 08:55 tankgirl wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2025 19:49 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 22 2025 15:08 tankgirl wrote:I never post here or even read the newspapers anymore but I couldnt escape the headlines. I am not informed enough to have an opinion on this complex issue. But after 20+ years of Iran's shenanigan, I am just grateful we finally have a strong Commander in Chief. On June 22 2025 12:37 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
In the same single tweet, Trump both bragged about dropping "a full payload of BOMBS" and shouted "NOW IS THE TIME FOR PEACE".
Don't need Twitter to be reminded that's what our president is doing. Someone graciously printed it on the backs of our one-dollar bill, which we exchange with our hands daily: + Show Spoiler [imgur] + First of all, “E pluribus unum” has nothing to do with hypocritically bombing Iran while asking for peace. You're right. I guess the giant eagle with an olive branch and quiver of arrows flew over your head.
When you quote mine me by deleting most of my post and then respond with a quip instead of a substantive reply, it doesn't give me much confidence that you're capable of having an actual conversation. Best of luck on post #3 in this thread.
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It's looking more and more analogous to the tragically ironic "Mission Accomplished" GWB sign/speech. Trump is playing whack-a-mole with his expected level of ignorance and apathy.
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If they did not get it, they will get another shot. Mossad seemingly knows more about Iran than the IRGC, the number of ultra high level targets they took out so quickly is pretty unheard of.
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On June 23 2025 08:37 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2025 08:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 23 2025 07:53 Zambrah wrote:
The anti-leftists here are as worth talking to as oBlade, fuck me Ive been talking to squirrels. How do you decide/define who is anti-left? Quite a lot if we’re talking the left as socialism/socialism-adjacent, not very many if we’re talking left of the centre and outwards I suppose. Depends where you’re initially standing. I mean for me being quite far left, I’d consider a lot of centrist thru centre left politics as acceptable but not ideal, thru antithetical to mine. Anyway aye it can certainly be frustrating to be in that area of the left/right axis and kinda seeing the same shit over, and over, and over (and sometimes over) again. In my case for about 20 years since I really took a close interest in politics. Centrist and liberal politics are pretty well catered for, if they’re your politics, there’s always rather a lot at the electoral banquet for you. Indeed, this is just the default. If you’re on the left, you will be summoned to the electoral banquet at or shamed for not turning up, but you get there and sit down and there’s fuck all on your plate. It’s the 1-2 punch that’s frustrating. You’re like Schrodinger’s leftist, important enough to be blamed for lost elections, not important enough to actually court your vote. I do differ from my erstwhile ‘colleagues’ as it were in that I think my native UK, and even more so the US, most don’t share my politics. Appealing broadly and to the centre in general makes sense. It just reflects reality on many grounds. But if you’re in a de facto two-party state, and part of your coalition are progressives, even if they’re merely a sizeable minority, you do need them on board as well. Which is definitely an area for improvement from the Democratic Party. Went a bit rambly as per. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to get frustrated if from one’s perspective you see the same mistakes made over and over. As an aside, you might get something that scrapes over the electoral line, but rarely it seems, something that enthuses. Party A scrapes in, doesn’t govern disastrously, but nothing super sexy to hang their hat in. Come next election Party B wins because of incumbency fatigue, then the cycle repeats etc. UK Labour are really feeling that pinch now. They actively purged the party of its left wing, previous leader, pivoted centre because of course you must do that to win elections. They’ve shed a fuckload of goodwill from their base, and have grabbed some votes from the centre, but voters that can flip on a dime again. And it is, because yeah they got votes but folks aren’t particularly invested, and the first signs of trouble they’ll flip.
Well said, especially about "Schrodinger’s leftist". Even if I don't mind compromising with only smaller, incremental improvements, because I may be to the left of where most Democratic voters are, I can see how others would feel disenfranchised and sleighted by the idea of "maybe we'll eventually get to where you want the country to be in a few terms, if the Dems win all the presidencies and always hold a Congressional majority in both houses". Some change can't wait.
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On June 23 2025 09:47 Billyboy wrote:
If they did not get it, they will get another shot. Mossad seemingly knows more about Iran than the IRGC, the number of ultra high level targets they took out so quickly is pretty unheard of.
The more likely event is that they're going to split up the material and put it in as many sites as possible.
You don't need a lot of it to put on a missle and create a dirty bomb to lauch at an American military base or into Isreal.
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On June 23 2025 08:43 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2025 08:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 23 2025 07:53 Zambrah wrote:
The anti-leftists here are as worth talking to as oBlade, fuck me Ive been talking to squirrels. How do you decide/define who is anti-left? At this point if someone does nothing but whine that the Democrats are just too far left and should just appeal to the right or centrists more than they already do then I’m labeling them an anti-leftist. Doubly so when they strawman my positions by implying that I think that the list of things I think Democrats should do to win boils down to OnE sImPlE lIFe HaCk like I haven’t said numerous times it’s a hard complex road towards the kind of change I believe Democrats need. They can’t even be bothered to read what I’m saying because they have a weird strawman leftist in their head that they staple on to everyone that isn’t a basic bitch Democrat. I don’t give me time to right wing freaks because I don’t believe they engage in good faith, at this point I think that of the people I’m labeling anti-leftist here too. This thread is a huge source of dismay for me, one positive event like Zohran, a sliver of hope in a dim world and I’m reminded that the Democrats and their base of supporters and allies are immovable, they do nothing wrong, just like the Republicans their only interest seems to be to kick to their left, but while Republicans laugh while they do it Democrats scowl and complain that the left doesn’t love them enough.
Understood; I see that explanation is purposeful and intended for specific posters lol.
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Northern Ireland24962 Posts
On June 23 2025 09:59 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2025 08:37 WombaT wrote:On June 23 2025 08:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 23 2025 07:53 Zambrah wrote:
The anti-leftists here are as worth talking to as oBlade, fuck me Ive been talking to squirrels. How do you decide/define who is anti-left? Quite a lot if we’re talking the left as socialism/socialism-adjacent, not very many if we’re talking left of the centre and outwards I suppose. Depends where you’re initially standing. I mean for me being quite far left, I’d consider a lot of centrist thru centre left politics as acceptable but not ideal, thru antithetical to mine. Anyway aye it can certainly be frustrating to be in that area of the left/right axis and kinda seeing the same shit over, and over, and over (and sometimes over) again. In my case for about 20 years since I really took a close interest in politics. Centrist and liberal politics are pretty well catered for, if they’re your politics, there’s always rather a lot at the electoral banquet for you. Indeed, this is just the default. If you’re on the left, you will be summoned to the electoral banquet at or shamed for not turning up, but you get there and sit down and there’s fuck all on your plate. It’s the 1-2 punch that’s frustrating. You’re like Schrodinger’s leftist, important enough to be blamed for lost elections, not important enough to actually court your vote. I do differ from my erstwhile ‘colleagues’ as it were in that I think my native UK, and even more so the US, most don’t share my politics. Appealing broadly and to the centre in general makes sense. It just reflects reality on many grounds. But if you’re in a de facto two-party state, and part of your coalition are progressives, even if they’re merely a sizeable minority, you do need them on board as well. Which is definitely an area for improvement from the Democratic Party. Went a bit rambly as per. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to get frustrated if from one’s perspective you see the same mistakes made over and over. As an aside, you might get something that scrapes over the electoral line, but rarely it seems, something that enthuses. Party A scrapes in, doesn’t govern disastrously, but nothing super sexy to hang their hat in. Come next election Party B wins because of incumbency fatigue, then the cycle repeats etc. UK Labour are really feeling that pinch now. They actively purged the party of its left wing, previous leader, pivoted centre because of course you must do that to win elections. They’ve shed a fuckload of goodwill from their base, and have grabbed some votes from the centre, but voters that can flip on a dime again. And it is, because yeah they got votes but folks aren’t particularly invested, and the first signs of trouble they’ll flip. Well said, especially about "Schrodinger’s leftist". Even if I don't mind compromising with only smaller, incremental improvements, because I may be to the left of where most Democratic voters are, I can see how others would feel disenfranchised and sleighted by the idea of "maybe we'll eventually get to where you want the country to be in a few terms, if the Dems win all the presidencies and always hold a Congressional majority in both houses". Some change can't wait.
In some areas, you do need to actually deliver incremental improvement. People would be placated by that.
If things are actively getting worse in a particular area, especially a big important one, it doesn’t exactly super enthuse.
This isn’t really on the Dems, if there’s an equivalent-ish Western nation where the cost of housing is outstripping inflation, real adjusted wage increases, sometimes considerably, I’ve yet to see it. Perhaps there is such an example, but regardless I don’t think this is a unique failing of the Dems.
The problem here comes from diametrically opposed incentives. Those with property want it to rise in value, those without, do not.
Maybe we’re not quite at the tipping point yet, but at some point, the have-nots are gonna outweigh the haves, and be pretty pissed about it. And when we’re way across that line, whoever even vaguely fixes it is a lock.
Healthcare we’re seemingly in stasis since Obamacare, it’s perhaps not an easy political win, but it should be doable. The US in terms of state spending per capita alone spends about as much as the UK and other comparable states with universal healthcare. And the same again in private industry. And denial of care still happens, cost cutting still happens (and contributes to things like an opioid crisis that simply isn’t thing elsewhere), medical bankruptcies still happen.
If you can’t make political hay out of that, you’re either incompetent, or you’ve vested interests in not making it happen.
There were, also to be fair a lot of things in the Biden Presidency and subsequently the Biden/Harris candidacy I did like. But some of it felt like a really gorgeous garnish. Absolutely, great to have but if you’re neglecting the quality of the main meal it only goes so far.
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I'm not even denying anything you're saying above. All I've been saying is that your political platform is utterly worthless if it doesn't win elections, and winning elections requires getting independents to vote for you, and most independents aren't secret progressives waiting for true love's kiss to make them politically active.
People aren't voting for folks like Cuomo because they're stupid, they clearly feel like moderate liberalism is giving them something that progressivism isn't. What is it and why?
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Northern Ireland24962 Posts
On June 23 2025 10:52 LightSpectra wrote:
I'm not even denying anything you're saying above. All I've been saying is that your political platform is utterly worthless if it doesn't win elections, and winning elections requires getting independents to vote for you, and most independents aren't secret progressives waiting for true love's kiss to make them politically active.
People aren't voting for folks like Cuomo because they're stupid, they clearly feel like moderate liberalism is giving them something that progressivism isn't. What is it and why?
Donald Trump is a 2x President so there is that.
The Democrats managed to lose 2016 to a Trump that wasn’t yet normalised. That dam was subsequently busted so I think that made it more difficult after the breakthrough.
They then lost to Trump again. They’re not exactly crushing it in the legislature either.
The current strategy isn’t doing super well in winning elections. I think in part because to appeal to a hypothetical independent who might countenance Trumpism, or a centrist Democrat, you have to push the envelope too far right and you lose the left.
It’s the old problem, it’s a cold night, your duvet is too short to cover you sufficiently. Pull it up and your feet get cold, push it down and your top half is getting chilly. Try to grab the mystical swing voters and you piss the left off.
I think it’s a pretty centrist country, run on that absolutely. Just throw some bones to the progressives.
Especially when the progressive positions are actually broadly popular, or indeed sometimes bipartisan.
The Democratic Party hates easy wins for, some unknown reason. You can run from the centre, and give someone like Bernie Sanders prominence in an area he’s strong on.
I’m absolutely not saying you do that and you cake every important election. It may be worth a shot though. And you can’t really assess its viability until it’s been tried and failed.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/WAZNCrS.png)
