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United States42685 Posts
Again, the problem is that the Democrats are too progressive. For example they didn't see black and woman as disqualifying factors for a candidate. They're out of touch with the American people. GH isn't wrong that the Democrats need to change to earn the votes of the American people, he's wrong about the direction they need to change in.
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If that is your one dimensional analysis of the entire thing, I'm very dissapointed.
You have misinformation messaging that's way stronger on the R side and you have people that are disincentivized to vote a la GH. So, no. People voted Dems because they didn't want to be MAGA, if they were too progressive you'd have seen way more votes for Trump.
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On March 23 2025 02:41 EnDeR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2025 02:34 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 23 2025 01:58 EnDeR_ wrote:On March 23 2025 00:30 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 22 2025 03:18 EnDeR_ wrote:On March 22 2025 02:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 22 2025 00:41 EnDeR_ wrote:
Equally, 'but the Dems just didn't do enough to get my vote' is unhelpful, to say the least. It was a trolley problem and people chose to not pull the lever (aka vote) when it was clear that not pulling the lever was the choice that would lead to the most suffering. GH: This trolly diversion is a stupid abstraction to try to deflect responsibility for complicity in genocide under the guise of a vague belief in utilitarianism. It wasn't a "trolly problem" unless you are willfully ignorant to how this supposed trolly, switch, and victim setup was constructed. It is a desperate attempt to preserve one's self-image as not one of "the baddies" and divert blame onto those that refused complicity before Democrats replaced one genocidal candidate with another. This is despite knowingly supporting what they themselves described as evil/genocide and supporting/voting for the people they recognize are actively enabling Trump's fascist genocidal ascendancy currently. It's asinine, but more importantly, it prevents anyone still clinging to it from maturing politically and being remotely ready for meeting the moment we're currently facing. It's falling victim to basically the same "business as usual" mentality Democrats are generally being rightfully criticized for here and pretty much everywhere else. I mean, we literally have just had the Israeli government announce that they're about to annex Gaza, evict Palestinians and build casinos in their land. Can you genuinely still claim that 'not doing' everything in your power to prevent Trump was the morally superior choice? GH: I did everything in my power, so absolutely, and it is not even close. Supporting genocide as a "lesser evil" just makes you deplorably genocidal. It doesn't make you an enlightened pragmatist, no matter what the propaganda tells you. My point there isn't really about the morality of it though. The point there is that the stupid trolley abstraction requires the user (provided a grade school level of competence) to be willfully oblivious/malicious to apply it. But even more importantly, that continuing to cling to this myth of the trolley framing prevents the person clinging to it from maturing politically in a way that prepares them for the moment we're facing. They'll keep rationalizing their support for what they describe as evil, destroying the more vulnerable people around them with this trolley nonsense until they find themselves on the tracks, and then it'll be too late. The only people left will be those that believe running them over is the only pragmatic and justifiable choice. Define 'you did everything in your power' to stop Trump. All I recall you doing is undermining the only realistic opposition at every turn. GH: I've covered this before. On February 15 2025 05:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 15 2025 05:46 Sadist wrote:On February 15 2025 03:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 15 2025 03:10 Sadist wrote:On February 14 2025 23:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 14 2025 23:05 KwarK wrote:On February 14 2025 23:01 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 14 2025 22:32 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Consider that some of the people you’re working with may have been open to some kind of actual solution to the issue at hand. You’re pulling them away from real resistance and instead advocating that you all just take a day off work together. You’re essentially just another layer of structural opposition to real change, a net to catch people who recognize that there’s an issue and ensnare them with pipe dreams of general strikes. This is part of what I mean by delusional and ahistorical. 50 years of voting for Democrats with several majorities got people the grand prize of healthcare legislation that Republicans rejected as too right wing 50 years ago. We know that objectively isn't "real resistance". Meanwhile basically all significant progress in this country has come from direct actions like strikes, protests, and people generally demanding it, even against threats of death. Not from falling in line to vote for Democrats without making any demands of them. Like I said though, if you have an alternative "actual solution" or "real resistance" plan, I'm listening. Afaict though, your plan is to flee or pick up a baton and join the fascists. All the significant progress that led us to the current intolerable situation? That progress? That’s your historical precedent? So that's a no to you having an alternative besides running to save your own skin or, as you're doing now, picking up a baton to ensure the rest of us can't save ours? Cool. EDIT: On February 14 2025 23:06 Sadist wrote:GH if you wanted to make progress why not vote for Dems then strike? + Show Spoiler + At least then youd be dealing with a receptive and not fascist government. Its like you want to play on hard mode. One reason would be that my vote would not have even been counted before the election was called, while casting it for Dems would be making me complicit in genocide. Still voting for Dems despite that is heinously sadistic imo I just want to go back to this. Why is this not an important point? A lot of us in the midwest are in swing states while people from solidly blue or red states lob grenades not understanding potential consequences. + Show Spoiler +Its easy to be on the fence of being anti trump when you are not in a swing state. This is not reality for many people. Im not blaming the large muslim 3rd party vote in michigan for losing the election as white folks vote for republican en masse and if we could flip 5-10% dems would win every election. However, when everyone is forcibly removed from Gaza I hope everyone understands voting has consequences. You asked about my vote. But this again masks in delusion that you guys were telling people to shut up and fall in line behind Biden before the primary even started. As if we don't remember Democrats en masse gaslighting us and themselves about Biden totally being fine to make it through the primary and election and that even if he couldn't they'd knowingly vote for a clinically braindead Biden anyway. You needed to be shouting from the rooftops with everyone else demanding better, for a primary without Biden, or at least a pseudo primary where the different factions of Democrats make their cases to the public and then unite around their predetermined nominee anyway. I'd have still complained, but Biden would have been exposed earlier, left more time for a backup plan to take form, and potentially succeeded + Show Spoiler +(assuming this wasn't the intended outcome of his stubborn hubris) . We're there again. When you need to be shouting from the rooftops demanding better while doing work to bring it about. Instead, you're again trying to browbeat people into submission to a Democrat party that believes and acts like you are a worthless idiot to them. GH i feel like you try to drum up support against Dems to be an accelerationist in the hopes of getting things to be bad enough to sway people to your side. Thats the only logical conclusion I can come up with if you would rather change peoples minds and have a 10M person strike under a fascist government as opposed to the Democrats. It really doesnt make logical sense for me otherwise. For you and your friends it would make sense to have the strike in a less dangerous environment. I already pointed out, with receipts, that I was saying that in order for Democrats to win, they needed to be better (regardless of whether they could get my vote or not). Your [recollections] aren't supported by the record/facts, making your conclusions anything but logical. + Show Spoiler +
I agree that we probably all should have been supporting a general strike all the back to the occupy movement, but sorta like with the planting a tree thing, the next best time to do it is today.
I didn't ask what democrats had to do to win your vote. I asked you what you did to prevent the calamity that is rapidly unfolding. It's specifically not about my vote... It literally says regardless of whether they could get my vote or not it's about beating Trump with enough votes. I worked tirelessly to convince Democrats their strategy of rageshaming people into believing their only choice was supporting a genocidal Biden, just to abandon him at the last possible second, and proceed to supporting a different genocidal candidate anyway was a losing one. They clearly lost, and yet still are struggling to accept that truth.
The work to oppose Trump and the rising tide of fascism started well before the most recent election cycle, Democrats and their supporters are just far too late in getting involved with it to stop Trump from taking power from them. Frankly, they don't seem to really be politically mature enough to do the work still. They're still stuck on the Hamster Wheel with little to no signs of even wanting to get off.
+ Show Spoiler +1. There's a problem
2. Politicians won't fix it
3. Need to replace the politicians with ones that will
4. Can't replace the politicians because of how the system works
5. Need to fix the system
6. Politicians wont fix it (because it benefits them)
7. Repeat ad nauseam.
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On March 22 2025 14:10 Zambrah wrote:
Basically, Trump deported some people to a hardcore prison in El Salvadore by claiming they were gang member terrorists. The problem being that, as one might expect, at least some of them absolutely weren't and they have no evidence proving they were. Their argument for their lack of evidence being that because they had no evidence it was proof that they were just like super smart terrorists.
You have the proof that some of them "absolutely" weren't the gang members claimed to be? Please share it if so, that would be interesting. I don't see how you could be privy to it otherwise. That seems to be the main thing most objections would need to hinge on here.
On March 22 2025 14:10 Zambrah wrote:
A judge ordered them not to and they were like, "lul too late hes already gone bruh."
Real serious gestapo shit, this. No due process, so we're hitting that territory where anyone can be spirited away to a concentration camp if the government decides theyre a terrorist for fake or non existent reasons.
This might be hard to swallow but if the government uses a law which is legal, that's the due process. For example, if some al Qaeda members were caught after walking across the border illegally and living in the US for a while, the process that is due to them is being immediately flown out under the same justification. Not letting them process an asylum claim because hey look they don't have a criminal record here and they haven't shot anyone yet. It may be frustrating the government doesn't publicly give us instant information regarding every single detail of every case of everything as it unfolds, but hopefully in principle we can all support mass deportations for al Qaeda members, not mass protests in their favor.
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On March 23 2025 03:45 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2025 02:41 EnDeR_ wrote:On March 23 2025 02:34 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 23 2025 01:58 EnDeR_ wrote:On March 23 2025 00:30 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 22 2025 03:18 EnDeR_ wrote:On March 22 2025 02:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 22 2025 00:41 EnDeR_ wrote:
Equally, 'but the Dems just didn't do enough to get my vote' is unhelpful, to say the least. It was a trolley problem and people chose to not pull the lever (aka vote) when it was clear that not pulling the lever was the choice that would lead to the most suffering. GH: This trolly diversion is a stupid abstraction to try to deflect responsibility for complicity in genocide under the guise of a vague belief in utilitarianism. It wasn't a "trolly problem" unless you are willfully ignorant to how this supposed trolly, switch, and victim setup was constructed. It is a desperate attempt to preserve one's self-image as not one of "the baddies" and divert blame onto those that refused complicity before Democrats replaced one genocidal candidate with another. This is despite knowingly supporting what they themselves described as evil/genocide and supporting/voting for the people they recognize are actively enabling Trump's fascist genocidal ascendancy currently. It's asinine, but more importantly, it prevents anyone still clinging to it from maturing politically and being remotely ready for meeting the moment we're currently facing. It's falling victim to basically the same "business as usual" mentality Democrats are generally being rightfully criticized for here and pretty much everywhere else. I mean, we literally have just had the Israeli government announce that they're about to annex Gaza, evict Palestinians and build casinos in their land. Can you genuinely still claim that 'not doing' everything in your power to prevent Trump was the morally superior choice? GH: I did everything in my power, so absolutely, and it is not even close. Supporting genocide as a "lesser evil" just makes you deplorably genocidal. It doesn't make you an enlightened pragmatist, no matter what the propaganda tells you. My point there isn't really about the morality of it though. The point there is that the stupid trolley abstraction requires the user (provided a grade school level of competence) to be willfully oblivious/malicious to apply it. But even more importantly, that continuing to cling to this myth of the trolley framing prevents the person clinging to it from maturing politically in a way that prepares them for the moment we're facing. They'll keep rationalizing their support for what they describe as evil, destroying the more vulnerable people around them with this trolley nonsense until they find themselves on the tracks, and then it'll be too late. The only people left will be those that believe running them over is the only pragmatic and justifiable choice. Define 'you did everything in your power' to stop Trump. All I recall you doing is undermining the only realistic opposition at every turn. GH: I've covered this before. On February 15 2025 05:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 15 2025 05:46 Sadist wrote:On February 15 2025 03:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 15 2025 03:10 Sadist wrote:On February 14 2025 23:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 14 2025 23:05 KwarK wrote:On February 14 2025 23:01 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
This is part of what I mean by delusional and ahistorical.
50 years of voting for Democrats with several majorities got people the grand prize of healthcare legislation that Republicans rejected as too right wing 50 years ago. We know that objectively isn't "real resistance". Meanwhile basically all significant progress in this country has come from direct actions like strikes, protests, and people generally demanding it, even against threats of death. Not from falling in line to vote for Democrats without making any demands of them.
Like I said though, if you have an alternative "actual solution" or "real resistance" plan, I'm listening. Afaict though, your plan is to flee or pick up a baton and join the fascists. All the significant progress that led us to the current intolerable situation? That progress? That’s your historical precedent? So that's a no to you having an alternative besides running to save your own skin or, as you're doing now, picking up a baton to ensure the rest of us can't save ours? Cool. EDIT: On February 14 2025 23:06 Sadist wrote:GH if you wanted to make progress why not vote for Dems then strike? + Show Spoiler + At least then youd be dealing with a receptive and not fascist government. Its like you want to play on hard mode. One reason would be that my vote would not have even been counted before the election was called, while casting it for Dems would be making me complicit in genocide. Still voting for Dems despite that is heinously sadistic imo I just want to go back to this. Why is this not an important point? A lot of us in the midwest are in swing states while people from solidly blue or red states lob grenades not understanding potential consequences. + Show Spoiler +Its easy to be on the fence of being anti trump when you are not in a swing state. This is not reality for many people. Im not blaming the large muslim 3rd party vote in michigan for losing the election as white folks vote for republican en masse and if we could flip 5-10% dems would win every election. However, when everyone is forcibly removed from Gaza I hope everyone understands voting has consequences. You asked about my vote. But this again masks in delusion that you guys were telling people to shut up and fall in line behind Biden before the primary even started. As if we don't remember Democrats en masse gaslighting us and themselves about Biden totally being fine to make it through the primary and election and that even if he couldn't they'd knowingly vote for a clinically braindead Biden anyway. You needed to be shouting from the rooftops with everyone else demanding better, for a primary without Biden, or at least a pseudo primary where the different factions of Democrats make their cases to the public and then unite around their predetermined nominee anyway. I'd have still complained, but Biden would have been exposed earlier, left more time for a backup plan to take form, and potentially succeeded + Show Spoiler +(assuming this wasn't the intended outcome of his stubborn hubris) . We're there again. When you need to be shouting from the rooftops demanding better while doing work to bring it about. Instead, you're again trying to browbeat people into submission to a Democrat party that believes and acts like you are a worthless idiot to them. GH i feel like you try to drum up support against Dems to be an accelerationist in the hopes of getting things to be bad enough to sway people to your side. Thats the only logical conclusion I can come up with if you would rather change peoples minds and have a 10M person strike under a fascist government as opposed to the Democrats. It really doesnt make logical sense for me otherwise. For you and your friends it would make sense to have the strike in a less dangerous environment. I already pointed out, with receipts, that I was saying that in order for Democrats to win, they needed to be better (regardless of whether they could get my vote or not). Your [recollections] aren't supported by the record/facts, making your conclusions anything but logical. + Show Spoiler +
I agree that we probably all should have been supporting a general strike all the back to the occupy movement, but sorta like with the planting a tree thing, the next best time to do it is today.
I didn't ask what democrats had to do to win your vote. I asked you what you did to prevent the calamity that is rapidly unfolding. It's specifically not about my vote... It literally says it's about beating Trump with enough votes. I worked tirelessly to convince Democrats their strategy of rageshaming people into believing their only choice was supporting a genocidal Biden, just to abandon him at the last possible second, and proceed to supporting a different genocidal candidate anyway was a losing one. They clearly lost, and yet still are struggling to accept that truth. The work to oppose Trump and the rising tide of fascism started well before the most recent election cycle, Democrats and their supporters are just far too late in getting involved with it to stop Trump from taking power from them. Frankly, they don't seem to really be politically mature enough to do the work still. They're still stuck on the Hamster Wheel with little to no signs of even wanting to get off. + Show Spoiler +1. There's a problem
2. Politicians won't fix it
3. Need to replace the politicians with ones that will
4. Can't replace the politicians because of how the system works
5. Need to fix the system
6. Politicians wont fix it (because it benefits them)
7. Repeat ad nauseam.
So you are saying that you spent all your political capital convincing people NOT to vote for democrats thus making the election of Donald trump more likely.
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On March 23 2025 04:03 EnDeR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2025 03:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 23 2025 02:41 EnDeR_ wrote:On March 23 2025 02:34 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 23 2025 01:58 EnDeR_ wrote:On March 23 2025 00:30 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 22 2025 03:18 EnDeR_ wrote:On March 22 2025 02:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 22 2025 00:41 EnDeR_ wrote:
Equally, 'but the Dems just didn't do enough to get my vote' is unhelpful, to say the least. It was a trolley problem and people chose to not pull the lever (aka vote) when it was clear that not pulling the lever was the choice that would lead to the most suffering. GH: This trolly diversion is a stupid abstraction to try to deflect responsibility for complicity in genocide under the guise of a vague belief in utilitarianism. It wasn't a "trolly problem" unless you are willfully ignorant to how this supposed trolly, switch, and victim setup was constructed. It is a desperate attempt to preserve one's self-image as not one of "the baddies" and divert blame onto those that refused complicity before Democrats replaced one genocidal candidate with another. This is despite knowingly supporting what they themselves described as evil/genocide and supporting/voting for the people they recognize are actively enabling Trump's fascist genocidal ascendancy currently. It's asinine, but more importantly, it prevents anyone still clinging to it from maturing politically and being remotely ready for meeting the moment we're currently facing. It's falling victim to basically the same "business as usual" mentality Democrats are generally being rightfully criticized for here and pretty much everywhere else. I mean, we literally have just had the Israeli government announce that they're about to annex Gaza, evict Palestinians and build casinos in their land. Can you genuinely still claim that 'not doing' everything in your power to prevent Trump was the morally superior choice? GH: I did everything in my power, so absolutely, and it is not even close. Supporting genocide as a "lesser evil" just makes you deplorably genocidal. It doesn't make you an enlightened pragmatist, no matter what the propaganda tells you. My point there isn't really about the morality of it though. The point there is that the stupid trolley abstraction requires the user (provided a grade school level of competence) to be willfully oblivious/malicious to apply it. But even more importantly, that continuing to cling to this myth of the trolley framing prevents the person clinging to it from maturing politically in a way that prepares them for the moment we're facing. They'll keep rationalizing their support for what they describe as evil, destroying the more vulnerable people around them with this trolley nonsense until they find themselves on the tracks, and then it'll be too late. The only people left will be those that believe running them over is the only pragmatic and justifiable choice. Define 'you did everything in your power' to stop Trump. All I recall you doing is undermining the only realistic opposition at every turn. GH: I've covered this before. On February 15 2025 05:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 15 2025 05:46 Sadist wrote:On February 15 2025 03:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 15 2025 03:10 Sadist wrote:On February 14 2025 23:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 14 2025 23:05 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
All the significant progress that led us to the current intolerable situation? That progress? That’s your historical precedent? So that's a no to you having an alternative besides running to save your own skin or, as you're doing now, picking up a baton to ensure the rest of us can't save ours? Cool. EDIT: On February 14 2025 23:06 Sadist wrote:GH if you wanted to make progress why not vote for Dems then strike? + Show Spoiler + At least then youd be dealing with a receptive and not fascist government. Its like you want to play on hard mode. One reason would be that my vote would not have even been counted before the election was called, while casting it for Dems would be making me complicit in genocide. Still voting for Dems despite that is heinously sadistic imo I just want to go back to this. Why is this not an important point? A lot of us in the midwest are in swing states while people from solidly blue or red states lob grenades not understanding potential consequences. + Show Spoiler +Its easy to be on the fence of being anti trump when you are not in a swing state. This is not reality for many people. Im not blaming the large muslim 3rd party vote in michigan for losing the election as white folks vote for republican en masse and if we could flip 5-10% dems would win every election. However, when everyone is forcibly removed from Gaza I hope everyone understands voting has consequences. You asked about my vote. But this again masks in delusion that you guys were telling people to shut up and fall in line behind Biden before the primary even started. As if we don't remember Democrats en masse gaslighting us and themselves about Biden totally being fine to make it through the primary and election and that even if he couldn't they'd knowingly vote for a clinically braindead Biden anyway. You needed to be shouting from the rooftops with everyone else demanding better, for a primary without Biden, or at least a pseudo primary where the different factions of Democrats make their cases to the public and then unite around their predetermined nominee anyway. I'd have still complained, but Biden would have been exposed earlier, left more time for a backup plan to take form, and potentially succeeded + Show Spoiler +(assuming this wasn't the intended outcome of his stubborn hubris) . We're there again. When you need to be shouting from the rooftops demanding better while doing work to bring it about. Instead, you're again trying to browbeat people into submission to a Democrat party that believes and acts like you are a worthless idiot to them. GH i feel like you try to drum up support against Dems to be an accelerationist in the hopes of getting things to be bad enough to sway people to your side. Thats the only logical conclusion I can come up with if you would rather change peoples minds and have a 10M person strike under a fascist government as opposed to the Democrats. It really doesnt make logical sense for me otherwise. For you and your friends it would make sense to have the strike in a less dangerous environment. I already pointed out, with receipts, that I was saying that in order for Democrats to win, they needed to be better (regardless of whether they could get my vote or not). Your [recollections] aren't supported by the record/facts, making your conclusions anything but logical. + Show Spoiler +
I agree that we probably all should have been supporting a general strike all the back to the occupy movement, but sorta like with the planting a tree thing, the next best time to do it is today.
I didn't ask what democrats had to do to win your vote. I asked you what you did to prevent the calamity that is rapidly unfolding. It's specifically not about my vote... It literally says regardless of whether they could get my vote or not it's about beating Trump with enough votes. I worked tirelessly to convince Democrats their strategy of rageshaming people into believing their only choice was supporting a genocidal Biden, just to abandon him at the last possible second, and proceed to supporting a different genocidal candidate anyway was a losing one. They clearly lost, and yet still are struggling to accept that truth. The work to oppose Trump and the rising tide of fascism started well before the most recent election cycle, Democrats and their supporters are just far too late in getting involved with it to stop Trump from taking power from them. Frankly, they don't seem to really be politically mature enough to do the work still. They're still stuck on the Hamster Wheel with little to no signs of even wanting to get off. + Show Spoiler +1. There's a problem
2. Politicians won't fix it
3. Need to replace the politicians with ones that will
4. Can't replace the politicians because of how the system works
5. Need to fix the system
6. Politicians wont fix it (because it benefits them)
7. Repeat ad nauseam. So you are saying that you spent all your political capital convincing people NOT to vote for democrats thus making the election of Donald trump more likely.
Maybe Democrats could have appealed to their actual swing voters instead of the imaginary Republican ones that they feel more comfortable whipping their tits out for.
Democrats losing elections is 100% a Democrat problem.
Unrelated to any post in this thread or anything, but if I saw a fascist poster in real life I'd call them a brainless moron and punch them in the face because fascists are vile and I want to live in a world where I have the opportunity to punch fascists in the mouth more. I also wish fascists were literate, or maybe I dont, they might be more dangerous if they were capable of reading?
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On March 23 2025 03:37 KwarK wrote:
Again, the problem is that the Democrats are too progressive. For example they didn't see black and woman as disqualifying factors for a candidate. They're out of touch with the American people. GH isn't wrong that the Democrats need to change to earn the votes of the American people, he's wrong about the direction they need to change in.
Would be very interesting to see statistics on this subject tbh. How many people didn't vote Democrats because they weren't progressive enough, vs how many votes would they lose if they became more progressive. And vice versa. Doubt any exists, but would be very interesting if it did.
Unlike yourself, I don't believe Democrats becoming a "Republican lite" would help them in the slightest. There are currently a lot of (in my opinion) truly awful people in the US right now, and they are truly happy with voting in awful people. Having the option of "slightly less" awful wouldn't really entice these people. The only way it would if Democrats became straight up much worse than the Republicans.
But without empirical data, this will never be more than pointless opinions.
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On March 23 2025 04:02 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2025 14:10 Zambrah wrote:
Basically, Trump deported some people to a hardcore prison in El Salvadore by claiming they were gang member terrorists. The problem being that, as one might expect, at least some of them absolutely weren't and they have no evidence proving they were. Their argument for their lack of evidence being that because they had no evidence it was proof that they were just like super smart terrorists. You have the proof that some of them "absolutely" weren't the gang members claimed to be? Please share it if so, that would be interesting. I don't see how you could be privy to it otherwise. That seems to be the main thing most objections would need to hinge on here. Show nested quote +On March 22 2025 14:10 Zambrah wrote:
A judge ordered them not to and they were like, "lul too late hes already gone bruh."
Real serious gestapo shit, this. No due process, so we're hitting that territory where anyone can be spirited away to a concentration camp if the government decides theyre a terrorist for fake or non existent reasons. This might be hard to swallow but if the government uses a law which is legal, that's the due process. For example, if some al Qaeda members were caught after walking across the border illegally and living in the US for a while, the process that is due to them is being immediately flown out under the same justification. Not letting them process an asylum claim because hey look they don't have a criminal record here and they haven't shot anyone yet. It may be frustrating the government doesn't publicly give us instant information regarding every single detail of every case of everything as it unfolds, but hopefully in principle we can all support mass deportations for al Qaeda members, not mass protests in their favor.
Do you absolute proof that you are not a gang member? Of course not, because it damn near impossible to prove your not something. This is why the justice system in free and fair countries does not operate the way you are suggesting.
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On March 23 2025 04:09 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2025 03:37 KwarK wrote:
Again, the problem is that the Democrats are too progressive. For example they didn't see black and woman as disqualifying factors for a candidate. They're out of touch with the American people. GH isn't wrong that the Democrats need to change to earn the votes of the American people, he's wrong about the direction they need to change in. Would be very interesting to see statistics on this subject tbh. How many people didn't vote Democrats because they weren't progressive enough, vs how many votes would they lose if they became more progressive. And vice versa. Doubt any exists, but would be very interesting if it did. Unlike yourself, I don't believe Democrats becoming a "Republican lite" would help them in the slightest. There are currently a lot of (in my opinion) truly awful people in the US right now, and they are truly happy with voting in awful people. Having the option of "slightly less" awful wouldn't really entice these people. The only way it would if Democrats became straight up much worse than the Republicans. But without empirical data, this will never be more than pointless opinions.
There was some information a while back in the thread about swing voters, and yeah Democrats swung right in this election and got less people to swing towards them this time.
Insisting that Democrats need to be racist and evil (more than they already are) is very silly, Democrats need to stop being completely spineless morons and start advocating aggressively for the working class and the material needs of the people living in the US and to stop pretending they do actually do those things just because they do it for corporations and corporations are technically people in this hellhole.
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On March 23 2025 04:11 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2025 04:02 oBlade wrote:On March 22 2025 14:10 Zambrah wrote:
Basically, Trump deported some people to a hardcore prison in El Salvadore by claiming they were gang member terrorists. The problem being that, as one might expect, at least some of them absolutely weren't and they have no evidence proving they were. Their argument for their lack of evidence being that because they had no evidence it was proof that they were just like super smart terrorists. You have the proof that some of them "absolutely" weren't the gang members claimed to be? Please share it if so, that would be interesting. I don't see how you could be privy to it otherwise. That seems to be the main thing most objections would need to hinge on here. On March 22 2025 14:10 Zambrah wrote:
A judge ordered them not to and they were like, "lul too late hes already gone bruh."
Real serious gestapo shit, this. No due process, so we're hitting that territory where anyone can be spirited away to a concentration camp if the government decides theyre a terrorist for fake or non existent reasons. This might be hard to swallow but if the government uses a law which is legal, that's the due process. For example, if some al Qaeda members were caught after walking across the border illegally and living in the US for a while, the process that is due to them is being immediately flown out under the same justification. Not letting them process an asylum claim because hey look they don't have a criminal record here and they haven't shot anyone yet. It may be frustrating the government doesn't publicly give us instant information regarding every single detail of every case of everything as it unfolds, but hopefully in principle we can all support mass deportations for al Qaeda members, not mass protests in their favor. Do you absolute proof that you are not a gang member? Of course not, because it damn near impossible to prove your not something. This is why the justice system in free and fair countries does not operate the way you are suggesting.
They locked one of the dudes up because they were completely unable to tell a soccer fan from a fucking hard core gang member lmao.
Even if they were terrorist gang members, they have to see a judge, the act they used to justify Gestapo'ing people requires being at war, which we're obviously not, so they needed to be put in front of a judge for some of that sweet due process.
I can't tell if fascists are actually brain damaged or if they're just actively cheering for the secret police to start declaring their political enemies terrorists without any actual evidence or due process so they can be deported to concentration camps. Probably both.
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On March 23 2025 04:03 EnDeR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2025 03:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 23 2025 02:41 EnDeR_ wrote:On March 23 2025 02:34 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 23 2025 01:58 EnDeR_ wrote:On March 23 2025 00:30 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 22 2025 03:18 EnDeR_ wrote:On March 22 2025 02:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 22 2025 00:41 EnDeR_ wrote:
Equally, 'but the Dems just didn't do enough to get my vote' is unhelpful, to say the least. It was a trolley problem and people chose to not pull the lever (aka vote) when it was clear that not pulling the lever was the choice that would lead to the most suffering. GH: This trolly diversion is a stupid abstraction to try to deflect responsibility for complicity in genocide under the guise of a vague belief in utilitarianism. It wasn't a "trolly problem" unless you are willfully ignorant to how this supposed trolly, switch, and victim setup was constructed. It is a desperate attempt to preserve one's self-image as not one of "the baddies" and divert blame onto those that refused complicity before Democrats replaced one genocidal candidate with another. This is despite knowingly supporting what they themselves described as evil/genocide and supporting/voting for the people they recognize are actively enabling Trump's fascist genocidal ascendancy currently. It's asinine, but more importantly, it prevents anyone still clinging to it from maturing politically and being remotely ready for meeting the moment we're currently facing. It's falling victim to basically the same "business as usual" mentality Democrats are generally being rightfully criticized for here and pretty much everywhere else. I mean, we literally have just had the Israeli government announce that they're about to annex Gaza, evict Palestinians and build casinos in their land. Can you genuinely still claim that 'not doing' everything in your power to prevent Trump was the morally superior choice? GH: I did everything in my power, so absolutely, and it is not even close. Supporting genocide as a "lesser evil" just makes you deplorably genocidal. It doesn't make you an enlightened pragmatist, no matter what the propaganda tells you. My point there isn't really about the morality of it though. The point there is that the stupid trolley abstraction requires the user (provided a grade school level of competence) to be willfully oblivious/malicious to apply it. But even more importantly, that continuing to cling to this myth of the trolley framing prevents the person clinging to it from maturing politically in a way that prepares them for the moment we're facing. They'll keep rationalizing their support for what they describe as evil, destroying the more vulnerable people around them with this trolley nonsense until they find themselves on the tracks, and then it'll be too late. The only people left will be those that believe running them over is the only pragmatic and justifiable choice. Define 'you did everything in your power' to stop Trump. All I recall you doing is undermining the only realistic opposition at every turn. GH: I've covered this before. On February 15 2025 05:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 15 2025 05:46 Sadist wrote:On February 15 2025 03:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 15 2025 03:10 Sadist wrote:On February 14 2025 23:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 14 2025 23:05 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
All the significant progress that led us to the current intolerable situation? That progress? That’s your historical precedent? So that's a no to you having an alternative besides running to save your own skin or, as you're doing now, picking up a baton to ensure the rest of us can't save ours? Cool. EDIT: On February 14 2025 23:06 Sadist wrote:GH if you wanted to make progress why not vote for Dems then strike? + Show Spoiler + At least then youd be dealing with a receptive and not fascist government. Its like you want to play on hard mode. One reason would be that my vote would not have even been counted before the election was called, while casting it for Dems would be making me complicit in genocide. Still voting for Dems despite that is heinously sadistic imo I just want to go back to this. Why is this not an important point? A lot of us in the midwest are in swing states while people from solidly blue or red states lob grenades not understanding potential consequences. + Show Spoiler +Its easy to be on the fence of being anti trump when you are not in a swing state. This is not reality for many people. Im not blaming the large muslim 3rd party vote in michigan for losing the election as white folks vote for republican en masse and if we could flip 5-10% dems would win every election. However, when everyone is forcibly removed from Gaza I hope everyone understands voting has consequences. You asked about my vote. But this again masks in delusion that you guys were telling people to shut up and fall in line behind Biden before the primary even started. As if we don't remember Democrats en masse gaslighting us and themselves about Biden totally being fine to make it through the primary and election and that even if he couldn't they'd knowingly vote for a clinically braindead Biden anyway. You needed to be shouting from the rooftops with everyone else demanding better, for a primary without Biden, or at least a pseudo primary where the different factions of Democrats make their cases to the public and then unite around their predetermined nominee anyway. I'd have still complained, but Biden would have been exposed earlier, left more time for a backup plan to take form, and potentially succeeded + Show Spoiler +(assuming this wasn't the intended outcome of his stubborn hubris) . We're there again. When you need to be shouting from the rooftops demanding better while doing work to bring it about. Instead, you're again trying to browbeat people into submission to a Democrat party that believes and acts like you are a worthless idiot to them. GH i feel like you try to drum up support against Dems to be an accelerationist in the hopes of getting things to be bad enough to sway people to your side. Thats the only logical conclusion I can come up with if you would rather change peoples minds and have a 10M person strike under a fascist government as opposed to the Democrats. It really doesnt make logical sense for me otherwise. For you and your friends it would make sense to have the strike in a less dangerous environment. I already pointed out, with receipts, that I was saying that in order for Democrats to win, they needed to be better (regardless of whether they could get my vote or not). Your [recollections] aren't supported by the record/facts, making your conclusions anything but logical. + Show Spoiler +
I agree that we probably all should have been supporting a general strike all the back to the occupy movement, but sorta like with the planting a tree thing, the next best time to do it is today.
I didn't ask what democrats had to do to win your vote. I asked you what you did to prevent the calamity that is rapidly unfolding. It's specifically not about my vote... It literally says regardless of whether they could get my vote or not it's about beating Trump with enough votes. I worked tirelessly to convince Democrats their strategy of rageshaming people into believing their only choice was supporting a genocidal Biden, just to abandon him at the last possible second, and proceed to supporting a different genocidal candidate anyway was a losing one. They clearly lost, and yet still are struggling to accept that truth. The work to oppose Trump and the rising tide of fascism started well before the most recent election cycle, Democrats and their supporters are just far too late in getting involved with it to stop Trump from taking power from them. Frankly, they don't seem to really be politically mature enough to do the work still. They're still stuck on the Hamster Wheel with little to no signs of even wanting to get off. + Show Spoiler +1. There's a problem
2. Politicians won't fix it
3. Need to replace the politicians with ones that will
4. Can't replace the politicians because of how the system works
5. Need to fix the system
6. Politicians wont fix it (because it benefits them)
7. Repeat ad nauseam. So you are saying that you spent all your political capital convincing people NOT to vote for democrats thus making the election of Donald trump more likely.
No.
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United States42685 Posts
On March 23 2025 04:12 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2025 04:09 Excludos wrote:On March 23 2025 03:37 KwarK wrote:
Again, the problem is that the Democrats are too progressive. For example they didn't see black and woman as disqualifying factors for a candidate. They're out of touch with the American people. GH isn't wrong that the Democrats need to change to earn the votes of the American people, he's wrong about the direction they need to change in. Would be very interesting to see statistics on this subject tbh. How many people didn't vote Democrats because they weren't progressive enough, vs how many votes would they lose if they became more progressive. And vice versa. Doubt any exists, but would be very interesting if it did. Unlike yourself, I don't believe Democrats becoming a "Republican lite" would help them in the slightest. There are currently a lot of (in my opinion) truly awful people in the US right now, and they are truly happy with voting in awful people. Having the option of "slightly less" awful wouldn't really entice these people. The only way it would if Democrats became straight up much worse than the Republicans. But without empirical data, this will never be more than pointless opinions. There was some information a while back in the thread about swing voters, and yeah Democrats swung right in this election and got less people to swing towards them this time. Insisting that Democrats need to be racist and evil (more than they already are) is very silly, Democrats need to stop being completely spineless morons and start advocating aggressively for the working class and the material needs of the people living in the US and to stop pretending they do actually do those things just because they do it for corporations and corporations are technically people in this hellhole.
Americans don’t think they’re working class. But things like not selling out the trans community and not running an old white man were absolutely vote losers.
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On March 23 2025 04:16 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2025 04:11 Billyboy wrote:On March 23 2025 04:02 oBlade wrote:On March 22 2025 14:10 Zambrah wrote:
Basically, Trump deported some people to a hardcore prison in El Salvadore by claiming they were gang member terrorists. The problem being that, as one might expect, at least some of them absolutely weren't and they have no evidence proving they were. Their argument for their lack of evidence being that because they had no evidence it was proof that they were just like super smart terrorists. You have the proof that some of them "absolutely" weren't the gang members claimed to be? Please share it if so, that would be interesting. I don't see how you could be privy to it otherwise. That seems to be the main thing most objections would need to hinge on here. On March 22 2025 14:10 Zambrah wrote:
A judge ordered them not to and they were like, "lul too late hes already gone bruh."
Real serious gestapo shit, this. No due process, so we're hitting that territory where anyone can be spirited away to a concentration camp if the government decides theyre a terrorist for fake or non existent reasons. This might be hard to swallow but if the government uses a law which is legal, that's the due process. For example, if some al Qaeda members were caught after walking across the border illegally and living in the US for a while, the process that is due to them is being immediately flown out under the same justification. Not letting them process an asylum claim because hey look they don't have a criminal record here and they haven't shot anyone yet. It may be frustrating the government doesn't publicly give us instant information regarding every single detail of every case of everything as it unfolds, but hopefully in principle we can all support mass deportations for al Qaeda members, not mass protests in their favor. Do you absolute proof that you are not a gang member? Of course not, because it damn near impossible to prove your not something. This is why the justice system in free and fair countries does not operate the way you are suggesting. They locked one of the dudes up because they were completely unable to tell a soccer fan from a fucking hard core gang member lmao. Even if they were terrorist gang members, they have to see a judge, the act they used to justify Gestapo'ing people requires being at war, which we're obviously not, so they needed to be put in front of a judge for some of that sweet due process. I can't tell if fascists are actually brain damaged or if they're just actively cheering for the secret police to start declaring their political enemies terrorists without any actual evidence or due process so they can be deported to concentration camps. Probably both.
I think some a some b some both. The majority seem to think that the "few" mistakes are worth getting all the awful out. The whole lie of populism is that all the problems are caused by the others and if you get rid of the it will get better. The others tend to grow over time because it doesn't take much critical thinking about any of the problems to realize they are systemic and complicated. But easy is way more popular.
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On March 23 2025 04:12 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2025 04:09 Excludos wrote:On March 23 2025 03:37 KwarK wrote:
Again, the problem is that the Democrats are too progressive. For example they didn't see black and woman as disqualifying factors for a candidate. They're out of touch with the American people. GH isn't wrong that the Democrats need to change to earn the votes of the American people, he's wrong about the direction they need to change in. Would be very interesting to see statistics on this subject tbh. How many people didn't vote Democrats because they weren't progressive enough, vs how many votes would they lose if they became more progressive. And vice versa. Doubt any exists, but would be very interesting if it did. Unlike yourself, I don't believe Democrats becoming a "Republican lite" would help them in the slightest. There are currently a lot of (in my opinion) truly awful people in the US right now, and they are truly happy with voting in awful people. Having the option of "slightly less" awful wouldn't really entice these people. The only way it would if Democrats became straight up much worse than the Republicans. But without empirical data, this will never be more than pointless opinions. There was some information a while back in the thread about swing voters, and yeah Democrats swung right in this election and got less people to swing towards them this time. Insisting that Democrats need to be racist and evil (more than they already are) is very silly, Democrats need to stop being completely spineless morons and start advocating aggressively for the working class and the material needs of the people living in the US and to stop pretending they do actually do those things just because they do it for corporations and corporations are technically people in this hellhole.
GH: Probably thinking of this: On November 07 2024 02:38 GreenHorizons wrote:
This should end Democrats insistence on trying to appeal to Republicans rather than motivating/engaging the 10's of millions of people that mostly agree with them (at least their ostensible views) but don't typically vote for a variety of reasons.
For all their appeals to Republicans, supporting an immigration crackdown, backing genocide, and palling around with Cheney on stage, they made negative progress
Kwark is also selling Democrats short, they really tried to stick with the old white guy until it was undeniable he would lose and they got pretty bad about issues around trans people's rights too.
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On March 23 2025 04:11 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2025 04:02 oBlade wrote:On March 22 2025 14:10 Zambrah wrote:
Basically, Trump deported some people to a hardcore prison in El Salvadore by claiming they were gang member terrorists. The problem being that, as one might expect, at least some of them absolutely weren't and they have no evidence proving they were. Their argument for their lack of evidence being that because they had no evidence it was proof that they were just like super smart terrorists. You have the proof that some of them "absolutely" weren't the gang members claimed to be? Please share it if so, that would be interesting. I don't see how you could be privy to it otherwise. That seems to be the main thing most objections would need to hinge on here. On March 22 2025 14:10 Zambrah wrote:
A judge ordered them not to and they were like, "lul too late hes already gone bruh."
Real serious gestapo shit, this. No due process, so we're hitting that territory where anyone can be spirited away to a concentration camp if the government decides theyre a terrorist for fake or non existent reasons. This might be hard to swallow but if the government uses a law which is legal, that's the due process. For example, if some al Qaeda members were caught after walking across the border illegally and living in the US for a while, the process that is due to them is being immediately flown out under the same justification. Not letting them process an asylum claim because hey look they don't have a criminal record here and they haven't shot anyone yet. It may be frustrating the government doesn't publicly give us instant information regarding every single detail of every case of everything as it unfolds, but hopefully in principle we can all support mass deportations for al Qaeda members, not mass protests in their favor. Do you absolute proof that you are not a gang member? Of course not, because it damn near impossible to prove your not something. This is why the justice system in free and fair countries does not operate the way you are suggesting.
Sure you're right at this point it's just he said he said. The government says they have extensive evidence and detailed investigations, and on the other hand the families of some of those affected have done other than come out and say "welp, you got him dead to rights, we admit our relative is a gangbanger." So we can't be sure.
Difference is as a US citizen, I actually have a right to be in the US gang member or not, which is probably not even a crime per se (so it's a moot question and I don't know that courts make judgments as to whether foreigners or anyone are card carrying gang members or not). This is markedly different from being an illegal immigrant with no right to enter the country illegally, and whose presence is more unwanted when you add international criminal/terrorist affiliation.
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On March 23 2025 04:44 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2025 04:12 Zambrah wrote:On March 23 2025 04:09 Excludos wrote:On March 23 2025 03:37 KwarK wrote:
Again, the problem is that the Democrats are too progressive. For example they didn't see black and woman as disqualifying factors for a candidate. They're out of touch with the American people. GH isn't wrong that the Democrats need to change to earn the votes of the American people, he's wrong about the direction they need to change in. Would be very interesting to see statistics on this subject tbh. How many people didn't vote Democrats because they weren't progressive enough, vs how many votes would they lose if they became more progressive. And vice versa. Doubt any exists, but would be very interesting if it did. Unlike yourself, I don't believe Democrats becoming a "Republican lite" would help them in the slightest. There are currently a lot of (in my opinion) truly awful people in the US right now, and they are truly happy with voting in awful people. Having the option of "slightly less" awful wouldn't really entice these people. The only way it would if Democrats became straight up much worse than the Republicans. But without empirical data, this will never be more than pointless opinions. There was some information a while back in the thread about swing voters, and yeah Democrats swung right in this election and got less people to swing towards them this time. Insisting that Democrats need to be racist and evil (more than they already are) is very silly, Democrats need to stop being completely spineless morons and start advocating aggressively for the working class and the material needs of the people living in the US and to stop pretending they do actually do those things just because they do it for corporations and corporations are technically people in this hellhole. Americans don’t think they’re working class. But things like not selling out the trans community and not running an old white man were absolutely vote losers.
I’d argue that they don’t need to think they’re working class, just force feed them the things that will improve their lives so they don’t feel so aggressively discontented. Let them be able to start their dumb small business that fails in six months because they’re idiots, and when it fails they can crawl back to the universal healthcare and affordable housing and groceries.
Democrats just need to actually build a reputation of helping people and actually help people that aren’t corporations. If they weren’t so incompetent we wouldn’t be enjoying our fascist take over right now.
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I can imagine a reasonable person that chose to abstain from voting because they thought both parties support Israeli actions in Palestine, but I think the majority of people who declare that as one of their reasons to not to vote for Democrats are horribly dishonest.
If you assume Trump's stance is comparable to supporting Hitler and Biden's stance is comparable to supporting Stalin, you can try to argue it's defensible to abstain from actively helping any of them. Personally I consider Biden's government stance far more pro-palestinian than what the far left is claiming, but I can understand why some of them think otherwise.
The reason why I think most of those who criticise Democrats are being dishonest is that I'm like 90% sure they would refuse to vote for Harris even if Biden reduced American support for Israel to zero AND slapped heavy sanctions on Israel. They represent that radical part of the left that consider everyone to the right of them, including moderate lefties, as fascists or fascism enablers. Everything they do can be reduced to trying to claim a moral high ground over everyone else and it's impossible to reason with them.
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United States42685 Posts
On March 23 2025 05:30 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2025 04:44 KwarK wrote:On March 23 2025 04:12 Zambrah wrote:On March 23 2025 04:09 Excludos wrote:On March 23 2025 03:37 KwarK wrote:
Again, the problem is that the Democrats are too progressive. For example they didn't see black and woman as disqualifying factors for a candidate. They're out of touch with the American people. GH isn't wrong that the Democrats need to change to earn the votes of the American people, he's wrong about the direction they need to change in. Would be very interesting to see statistics on this subject tbh. How many people didn't vote Democrats because they weren't progressive enough, vs how many votes would they lose if they became more progressive. And vice versa. Doubt any exists, but would be very interesting if it did. Unlike yourself, I don't believe Democrats becoming a "Republican lite" would help them in the slightest. There are currently a lot of (in my opinion) truly awful people in the US right now, and they are truly happy with voting in awful people. Having the option of "slightly less" awful wouldn't really entice these people. The only way it would if Democrats became straight up much worse than the Republicans. But without empirical data, this will never be more than pointless opinions. There was some information a while back in the thread about swing voters, and yeah Democrats swung right in this election and got less people to swing towards them this time. Insisting that Democrats need to be racist and evil (more than they already are) is very silly, Democrats need to stop being completely spineless morons and start advocating aggressively for the working class and the material needs of the people living in the US and to stop pretending they do actually do those things just because they do it for corporations and corporations are technically people in this hellhole. Americans don’t think they’re working class. But things like not selling out the trans community and not running an old white man were absolutely vote losers. I’d argue that they don’t need to think they’re working class, just force feed them the things that will improve their lives so they don’t feel so aggressively discontented. Let them be able to start their dumb small business that fails in six months because they’re idiots, and when it fails they can crawl back to the universal healthcare and affordable housing and groceries. Democrats just need to actually build a reputation of helping people and actually help people that aren’t corporations. If they weren’t so incompetent we wouldn’t be enjoying our fascist take over right now.
Is there any way you can structure that help so that nobody that voters perceive to be undeserving such as single mothers
, philosophy majors, blacks etc. ever benefit from it. Because if you can’t then that’s not going to work.
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On March 23 2025 06:05 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2025 05:30 Zambrah wrote:On March 23 2025 04:44 KwarK wrote:On March 23 2025 04:12 Zambrah wrote:On March 23 2025 04:09 Excludos wrote:On March 23 2025 03:37 KwarK wrote:
Again, the problem is that the Democrats are too progressive. For example they didn't see black and woman as disqualifying factors for a candidate. They're out of touch with the American people. GH isn't wrong that the Democrats need to change to earn the votes of the American people, he's wrong about the direction they need to change in. Would be very interesting to see statistics on this subject tbh. How many people didn't vote Democrats because they weren't progressive enough, vs how many votes would they lose if they became more progressive. And vice versa. Doubt any exists, but would be very interesting if it did. Unlike yourself, I don't believe Democrats becoming a "Republican lite" would help them in the slightest. There are currently a lot of (in my opinion) truly awful people in the US right now, and they are truly happy with voting in awful people. Having the option of "slightly less" awful wouldn't really entice these people. The only way it would if Democrats became straight up much worse than the Republicans. But without empirical data, this will never be more than pointless opinions. There was some information a while back in the thread about swing voters, and yeah Democrats swung right in this election and got less people to swing towards them this time. Insisting that Democrats need to be racist and evil (more than they already are) is very silly, Democrats need to stop being completely spineless morons and start advocating aggressively for the working class and the material needs of the people living in the US and to stop pretending they do actually do those things just because they do it for corporations and corporations are technically people in this hellhole. Americans don’t think they’re working class. But things like not selling out the trans community and not running an old white man were absolutely vote losers. I’d argue that they don’t need to think they’re working class, just force feed them the things that will improve their lives so they don’t feel so aggressively discontented. Let them be able to start their dumb small business that fails in six months because they’re idiots, and when it fails they can crawl back to the universal healthcare and affordable housing and groceries. Democrats just need to actually build a reputation of helping people and actually help people that aren’t corporations. If they weren’t so incompetent we wouldn’t be enjoying our fascist take over right now. Is there any way you can structure that help so that nobody that voters perceive to be undeserving such as single mothers , philosophy majors, blacks etc. ever benefit from it. Because if you can’t then that’s not going to work.
Dismantle the right wing stranglehold on media and stop acknowledging and capitulating to their asinine talking points and they won’t ever even have to hear that social safety nets are helping brown people etc
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United States42685 Posts
On March 23 2025 06:13 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2025 06:05 KwarK wrote:On March 23 2025 05:30 Zambrah wrote:On March 23 2025 04:44 KwarK wrote:On March 23 2025 04:12 Zambrah wrote:On March 23 2025 04:09 Excludos wrote:On March 23 2025 03:37 KwarK wrote:
Again, the problem is that the Democrats are too progressive. For example they didn't see black and woman as disqualifying factors for a candidate. They're out of touch with the American people. GH isn't wrong that the Democrats need to change to earn the votes of the American people, he's wrong about the direction they need to change in. Would be very interesting to see statistics on this subject tbh. How many people didn't vote Democrats because they weren't progressive enough, vs how many votes would they lose if they became more progressive. And vice versa. Doubt any exists, but would be very interesting if it did. Unlike yourself, I don't believe Democrats becoming a "Republican lite" would help them in the slightest. There are currently a lot of (in my opinion) truly awful people in the US right now, and they are truly happy with voting in awful people. Having the option of "slightly less" awful wouldn't really entice these people. The only way it would if Democrats became straight up much worse than the Republicans. But without empirical data, this will never be more than pointless opinions. There was some information a while back in the thread about swing voters, and yeah Democrats swung right in this election and got less people to swing towards them this time. Insisting that Democrats need to be racist and evil (more than they already are) is very silly, Democrats need to stop being completely spineless morons and start advocating aggressively for the working class and the material needs of the people living in the US and to stop pretending they do actually do those things just because they do it for corporations and corporations are technically people in this hellhole. Americans don’t think they’re working class. But things like not selling out the trans community and not running an old white man were absolutely vote losers. I’d argue that they don’t need to think they’re working class, just force feed them the things that will improve their lives so they don’t feel so aggressively discontented. Let them be able to start their dumb small business that fails in six months because they’re idiots, and when it fails they can crawl back to the universal healthcare and affordable housing and groceries. Democrats just need to actually build a reputation of helping people and actually help people that aren’t corporations. If they weren’t so incompetent we wouldn’t be enjoying our fascist take over right now. Is there any way you can structure that help so that nobody that voters perceive to be undeserving such as single mothers , philosophy majors, blacks etc. ever benefit from it. Because if you can’t then that’s not going to work. Dismantle the right wing stranglehold on media and stop acknowledging and capitulating to their asinine talking points and they won’t ever even have to hear that social safety nets are helping brown people etc
So no.
“Working class” Americans hate minorities more than they love themselves.
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EPT
