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On March 22 2025 00:41 EnDeR_ wrote:
Equally, 'but the Dems just didn't do enough to get my vote' is unhelpful, to say the least. It was a trolley problem and people chose to not pull the lever (aka vote) when it was clear that not pulling the lever was the choice that would lead to the most suffering.
GH: This trolley diversion is a stupid abstraction to try to deflect responsibility for complicity in genocide under the guise of a vague belief in utilitarianism.
It wasn't a "trolley problem" unless you are willfully ignorant to how this supposed trolley, switch, and victim setup was constructed. It is a desperate attempt to preserve one's self-image as not one of "the baddies" and divert blame onto those that refused complicity before Democrats replaced one genocidal candidate with another. This is despite knowingly supporting what they themselves described as evil/genocide and supporting/voting for the people they recognize are actively enabling Trump's fascist genocidal ascendancy currently.
It's asinine, but more importantly, it prevents anyone still clinging to it from maturing politically and being remotely ready for meeting the moment we're currently facing. It's falling victim to basically the same "business as usual" mentality Democrats are generally being rightfully criticized for here and pretty much everywhere else.
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On March 22 2025 02:57 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2025 00:41 EnDeR_ wrote:
Equally, 'but the Dems just didn't do enough to get my vote' is unhelpful, to say the least. It was a trolley problem and people chose to not pull the lever (aka vote) when it was clear that not pulling the lever was the choice that would lead to the most suffering. GH: This trolly diversion is a stupid abstraction to try to deflect responsibility for complicity in genocide under the guise of a vague belief in utilitarianism. It wasn't a "trolly problem" unless you are willfully ignorant to how this supposed trolly, switch, and victim setup was constructed. It is a desperate attempt to preserve one's self-image as not one of "the baddies" and divert blame onto those that refused complicity before Democrats replaced one genocidal candidate with another. This is despite knowingly supporting what they themselves described as evil/genocide and supporting/voting for the people they recognize are actively enabling Trump's fascist genocidal ascendancy currently. It's asinine, but more importantly, it prevents anyone still clinging to it from maturing politically and being remotely ready for meeting the moment we're currently facing. It's falling victim to basically the same "business as usual" mentality Democrats are generally being rightfully criticized for here and pretty much everywhere else.
I mean, we literally have just had the Israeli government announce that they're about to annex Gaza, evict Palestinians and build casinos in their land.
Can you genuinely still claim that 'not doing' everything in your power to prevent Trump was the morally superior choice?
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United States44439 Posts
On March 22 2025 01:52 EnDeR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2025 01:35 Sadist wrote:
No one was complicit. It literally was a trolly problem except even more people die if you dont pull the lever.
Pulling the lever is the complicit part, i.e. you took action and that's different from inaction in a moral sense. This is the reason why this is a moral dilemma.
I've never seen why the decision to stick is less of a decision than the decision to go.
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On March 22 2025 01:24 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2025 23:35 Legan wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 21 2025 22:27 KT_Elwood wrote:
A very obvious move from Netanyahu who is totally empowered by Trump, I wonder how the "I don't vote for Kamela because genocide" voters feel.
I still suppot getting rid of iranian proxies (Hamas, Hezbollah) though, and compensation for taking land is Israeli domestic politics.
I would wonder even more how the Democrats who pledged full support for Israel feel now that they sacrificed their democracy for supporting genocide. If those voters were so important, losing them was a massive mistake. Also, I doubt that the Democrats have a huge voting base that would abandon them for not supporting genocide. Well, at least I doubt they would leave them to vote for Trump. If they did, surely they would be laughed at for voting for Musk Salute. It is important to remember that Netanyahu was in power last year and had already killed tens of thousands of Palestinians with full support from the Democrats. The idea that they would oppose moving Gazans or the continuation of the genocide is simply naive. Blaming people who did not vote for a candidate they view as supporting genocide is just vile. Most likely, those voters did not matter at all, and now they are just used as scapegoats while Democrats act surprised how Israel could do this. On another note, the idea that the Democrats were holding Israel back is like saying that, thanks to you, your friend only brutally maimed and sexually assaulted the victim instead of killing them. It only highlights how complicit you are with your support and involvement. Ok dude. Hows Gaza coming along these days? Lmao at this nonsense. It was a binary choice. Trump or Harris. Any vote that wasnt for Harris was a vote for Trump. Its a 2 party system. There may have not been a great or perfect choice but there certainly was a horrific choice and we are seeing the results of that now.
How was Gaza nine months ago? What is the difference to now?
When Trump said he would not lose support for shooting someone on the street, people were appalled, but when Democrats lost support for supporting genocide, people were mad at those who held them to a higher standard.
Yes, the choices were bad, but blaming principled people on such an issue will not win you anything. Making people think that there are only two choices is great for controlling them. When people think they don't have a choice, they feel they don't have agency in the action and outcome. Thus, they are annulled from responsibility for their actions. If you don't actively try to find more options, do not be surprised if you are always served bad options. You will gladly choose the lesser evil until the evil directly hits you. I agree that not voting for Kamala is not exactly a groundbreaking move in this case, but it is not like many are presented by Democrats or by anyone currently. Most people in the USA seem to choose to do nothing
and just let Trump and Republicans turn your country into a fascist dictatorship. At least Serbians and Turks are not letting things happen without making clear how strongly they oppose their system.
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On March 22 2025 03:31 Legan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2025 01:24 Sadist wrote:On March 21 2025 23:35 Legan wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 21 2025 22:27 KT_Elwood wrote:
A very obvious move from Netanyahu who is totally empowered by Trump, I wonder how the "I don't vote for Kamela because genocide" voters feel.
I still suppot getting rid of iranian proxies (Hamas, Hezbollah) though, and compensation for taking land is Israeli domestic politics.
I would wonder even more how the Democrats who pledged full support for Israel feel now that they sacrificed their democracy for supporting genocide. If those voters were so important, losing them was a massive mistake. Also, I doubt that the Democrats have a huge voting base that would abandon them for not supporting genocide. Well, at least I doubt they would leave them to vote for Trump. If they did, surely they would be laughed at for voting for Musk Salute. It is important to remember that Netanyahu was in power last year and had already killed tens of thousands of Palestinians with full support from the Democrats. The idea that they would oppose moving Gazans or the continuation of the genocide is simply naive. Blaming people who did not vote for a candidate they view as supporting genocide is just vile. Most likely, those voters did not matter at all, and now they are just used as scapegoats while Democrats act surprised how Israel could do this. On another note, the idea that the Democrats were holding Israel back is like saying that, thanks to you, your friend only brutally maimed and sexually assaulted the victim instead of killing them. It only highlights how complicit you are with your support and involvement. Ok dude. Hows Gaza coming along these days? Lmao at this nonsense. It was a binary choice. Trump or Harris. Any vote that wasnt for Harris was a vote for Trump. Its a 2 party system. There may have not been a great or perfect choice but there certainly was a horrific choice and we are seeing the results of that now. How was Gaza nine months ago? What is the difference to now?
They're annexing Gaza now and are planning to build casinos in it.
I'd say there is a big difference.
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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
On March 22 2025 02:57 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2025 00:41 EnDeR_ wrote:
Equally, 'but the Dems just didn't do enough to get my vote' is unhelpful, to say the least. It was a trolley problem and people chose to not pull the lever (aka vote) when it was clear that not pulling the lever was the choice that would lead to the most suffering. GH: This trolly diversion is a stupid abstraction to try to deflect responsibility for complicity in genocide under the guise of a vague belief in utilitarianism. It wasn't a "trolly problem" unless you are willfully ignorant to how this supposed trolly, switch, and victim setup was constructed. It is a desperate attempt to preserve one's self-image as not one of "the baddies" and divert blame onto those that refused complicity before Democrats replaced one genocidal candidate with another. This is despite knowingly supporting what they themselves described as evil/genocide and supporting/voting for the people they recognize are actively enabling Trump's fascist genocidal ascendancy currently. It's asinine, but more importantly, it prevents anyone still clinging to it from maturing politically and being remotely ready for meeting the moment we're currently facing. It's falling victim to basically the same "business as usual" mentality Democrats are generally being rightfully criticized for here and pretty much everywhere else.
Until collectively we gain some capacity across the board for reflection and owning our own mistakes as well as we can point out those of others, idk how we can politically mature across the board.
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Clear conscience, lmao. You were emotionally manipulated into letting a rapist tyrant take over. Good luck getting average people to make wiser decisions in the future when an already struggling public education system is stripped to the bone and thinking too much will land you in El Salvador or Guantanamo.
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On March 22 2025 03:50 EnDeR_ wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 22 2025 03:31 Legan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2025 01:24 Sadist wrote:On March 21 2025 23:35 Legan wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 21 2025 22:27 KT_Elwood wrote:
A very obvious move from Netanyahu who is totally empowered by Trump, I wonder how the "I don't vote for Kamela because genocide" voters feel.
I still suppot getting rid of iranian proxies (Hamas, Hezbollah) though, and compensation for taking land is Israeli domestic politics.
I would wonder even more how the Democrats who pledged full support for Israel feel now that they sacrificed their democracy for supporting genocide. If those voters were so important, losing them was a massive mistake. Also, I doubt that the Democrats have a huge voting base that would abandon them for not supporting genocide. Well, at least I doubt they would leave them to vote for Trump. If they did, surely they would be laughed at for voting for Musk Salute. It is important to remember that Netanyahu was in power last year and had already killed tens of thousands of Palestinians with full support from the Democrats. The idea that they would oppose moving Gazans or the continuation of the genocide is simply naive. Blaming people who did not vote for a candidate they view as supporting genocide is just vile. Most likely, those voters did not matter at all, and now they are just used as scapegoats while Democrats act surprised how Israel could do this. On another note, the idea that the Democrats were holding Israel back is like saying that, thanks to you, your friend only brutally maimed and sexually assaulted the victim instead of killing them. It only highlights how complicit you are with your support and involvement. Ok dude. Hows Gaza coming along these days? Lmao at this nonsense. It was a binary choice. Trump or Harris. Any vote that wasnt for Harris was a vote for Trump. Its a 2 party system. There may have not been a great or perfect choice but there certainly was a horrific choice and we are seeing the results of that now. How was Gaza nine months ago? What is the difference to now? They're annexing Gaza now and are planning to build casinos in it. I'd say there is a big difference.
I understand. Killing tens of thousands, destroying most of the buildings, and blocking aid are supportable, but annexing land, forcing people to leave, and building casinos go too far for even Netanyahu. He should have just continued what he was doing last year; then, he would at least have kept the support for his actions.
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Honestly? You see no fundamental difference when the country attacking you switches from eliminating Hamas to eliminating Palestine?
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On March 22 2025 05:04 EnDeR_ wrote:
Honestly? You see no fundamental difference when the country attacking you switches from eliminating Hamas to eliminating Palestine?
Do you think that eliminating Palestine was not the goal last year? What is the significant change in the actions and rhetoric of Israel's leadership? Did Trump convince Netanyahu to commit ethnic cleansing, or did Netanyahu already want to do it last year? How is annexing and expelling part of ethnic cleansing but indiscriminately killing tens of thousands and destroying their homes is not? Is the land of Gaza more important for the existence of Palestine than the lives of Palestinians?
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So, if understand your argument correctly, you're saying that the change in US government empowered Netanyahu to finally commit the genocide he was itching for?
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On March 22 2025 05:19 Legan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2025 05:04 EnDeR_ wrote:
Honestly? You see no fundamental difference when the country attacking you switches from eliminating Hamas to eliminating Palestine? Do you think that eliminating Palestine was not the goal last year? What is the significant change in the actions and rhetoric of Israel's leadership? Did Trump convince Netanyahu to commit ethnic cleansing, or did Netanyahu already want to do it last year? How is annexing and expelling part of ethnic cleansing but indiscriminately killing tens of thousands and destroying their homes is not? Is the land of Gaza more important for the existence of Palestine than the lives of Palestinians?
Of course he always wanted it. The significant change is that we went from a US admin that acted as a brake (a flimsy one, sure) to Netanyahu's ambitions to a US admin that acts as an accelerant to it. Is that not plain to see?
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On March 22 2025 05:26 EnDeR_ wrote:
So, if understand your argument correctly, you're saying that the change in US government empowered Netanyahu to finally commit the genocide he was itching for?
Netanyahu was already committing genocide and still is. Annexing and expelling Palestinians is not worse than killing them. Killing them is much worse. If your ally is itching to commit genocide, they should not be an ally anymore. They should be stopped, not supported. When 'never again' is said about the holocaust, it means all genocide.
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Maybe Canada should leave if you join 
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On March 22 2025 02:53 Impervious wrote:
Trump really seems to want to make everything about himself, eh? Now with an F-47 announcement lol.
F-47 Trumpcat
![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/RpgRLrVZ/I4-Wm-F6dgx-NW0-M687-generated-image.jpg)
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On March 22 2025 05:04 EnDeR_ wrote:
Honestly? You see no fundamental difference when the country attacking you switches from eliminating Hamas to eliminating Palestine?
The point is that this would happen either with kamala or Trump. Trump just utilizes It as an ad for his base, but the real end result, IS the same.
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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
On March 22 2025 08:33 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2025 05:04 EnDeR_ wrote:
Honestly? You see no fundamental difference when the country attacking you switches from eliminating Hamas to eliminating Palestine? The point is that this would happen either with kamala or Trump. Trump just utilizes It as an ad for his base, but the real end result, IS the same.
I’m not sure it is the same. I don’t see a Dem administration actually delivering what I’d like to see, and many would, but the handbrake is at least somewhat applied.
I think the real difference isn’t really as regards this current escalation of conflict, where there’s more similarities than differences, but in the medium/long-term approach to resolution.
Trump’s given Israel absolute carte blanche. Any kind of two-state solution, even if it’s a pure pipe dream that doesn’t get realised under other leaders, is absolutely 100% dead under this one.
I also don’t think we see the Dems do things like expelling diplomats because their nation made moves against Israel. While I think broader US policy here sucks, and both parties have been guilty there, I also think a Dem administration would be less actively hostile in this regard. Which I think is somewhat meaningful as well.
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10% of American women aged 18 to 24 have Only Fans pages... meanwhile Donald Trump is picking fights with Canada.
"1984" and "Brave New World" have arrived... along with a little sprinkling of "Anthem".
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On March 22 2025 10:18 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
10% of American women aged 18 to 24 have Only Fans pages... meanwhile Donald Trump is picking fights with Canada.
"1984" and "Brave New World" have arrived... along with a little sprinkling of "Anthem".
Source please.
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EPT
