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On July 17 2018 05:43 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2018 05:33 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On July 17 2018 05:22 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2018 05:17 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On July 17 2018 04:45 ticklishmusic wrote:A criminal complaint was unsealed today in the District of Columbia charging a Russian national with conspiracy to act as an agent of the Russian Federation within the United States without prior notification to the Attorney General.
The announcement was made by Assistant Attorney General for National Security John C. Demers, U.S. Attorney for the District of Columbia Jessie K. Liu, and Nancy McNamara, Assistant Director in Charge of the FBI’s Washington Field Office.
Maria Butina, 29, a Russian citizen residing in Washington D.C., was arrested on July 15, 2018, in Washington, D.C., and made her initial appearance this afternoon before Magistrate Judge Deborah A. Robinson in the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia. She was ordered held pending a hearing set for July 18, 2018.
According to the affidavit in support of the complaint, from as early as 2015 and continuing through at least February 2017, Butina worked at the direction of a high-level official in the Russian government who was previously a member of the legislature of the Russian Federation and later became a top official at the Russian Central Bank. This Russian official was sanctioned by the U.S. Department of the Treasury, Office of Foreign Assets Control in April 2018.
The court filings detail the Russian official’s and Butina’s efforts for Butina to act as an agent of Russia inside the United States by developing relationships with U.S. persons and infiltrating organizations having influence in American politics, for the purpose of advancing the interests of the Russian Federation. The filings also describe certain actions taken by Butina to further this effort during multiple visits from Russia and, later, when she entered and resided in the United States on a student visa. The filings allege that she undertook her activities without officially disclosing the fact that she was acting as an agent of Russian government, as required by law.
The charges in criminal complaints are merely allegations and every defendant is presumed innocent unless and until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. The maximum penalty for conspiracy is five years. The maximum statutory sentence is prescribed by Congress and is provided here for informational purposes. If convicted of any offense, a defendant’s sentence will be determined by the court based on the advisory U.S. Sentencing Guidelines and other statutory factors.
The investigation into this matter was conducted by the FBI’s Washington Field Office. The case is being prosecuted by the National Security Section of the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the District of Columbia and the National Security Division of the U.S. Department of Justice. SourceApparently Sessions wasn't notified about this. And now I'm curious what persons/ orgs she was trying to influence. The GUN RIGHTS ORGANIZATION in the affidavit is the NRA. The RUSSIAN OFFICIAL who is Butina's boss is Alexander Torshin. US PERSON 1 is probably David Keene. This won’t be the first conservative organization they got their claws into. And the way these investigations work, it is a slow roll from the outside as it works its way into the real meat of the case. My bet is that we find out in the near future that a bunch of GOP members took money they should have known was not from a legit source. Or worse. Glad you brought up the GOP candidates taking money. The NRA has been asked about its unprecedentedly huge donations to the GOP in 2016. Its response was always "Well, any money we got from foreign sources, including Russia, was placed in separate accounts from our political and lobbying donations." But money is fungible. If money from Russia went to keeping the lights on or to payroll or to office supplies, that means the NRA had more cash on hand to donate to political organizations. The FBI clearly didn't buy their excuse. I wonder when Americans are going to start getting charged in these investigations. Watergate sent some 40-odd people to jail, I believe. I think soon. Maybe in the next ground of charges. And given the clown show that we have seen so far leading up to this, my bet is the NRA didn’t keep that money separate at all. In 2016 the wheels came off the funding systems for elections and everyone just didn’t give a shit. But there was so much money, we are just catching up to it now. It is sort of like how Cambridge Analytica, a UK company, worked on the Trump campaign. Sure, they have a branch in the US that is “separate”, but I’m still amazed that didn’t raise any eyebrows. And of course, they were shady as fuck. We have completely lost control of elections in this country and we are only starting to understand how bad it is.
I'd like to thank Citizens United!
On July 17 2018 05:41 Ayaz2810 wrote:
Seeing and hearing a lot of people talking about their pro-Trump family members turning on Trump after this.
From Reddit: "For the first time in his life, my father just admitted that Trump may indeed be a traitor to the country. Up until this point, he has never questioned Trump in any way, and fully bought onto the "Hillary would have been terrible" train.
But after having just watched this press conference, he couldn't believe that the President of the United States did nothing but shit talk this country, and praise Russia.
Ladies and gentleman... I guess there is hope?"
I also just talked to a friend who loves to troll me online with pro-Trump memes. He was flabbergasted to say the least.
Also, #TRE45SON was trending last I looked. This *might* be the straw that breaks the camel's back?
God, I hope so. Really curious to see how certain Trump supporters I know react to the press conference today.
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On July 17 2018 05:50 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2018 05:44 Nouar wrote:On July 17 2018 03:54 xDaunt wrote:On July 17 2018 03:43 Mohdoo wrote:On July 17 2018 03:31 GreenHorizons wrote:
People don't actually want Trump to do anything differently when it comes to Russia, they just want him to talk differently right?
Besides how he talks about Russia people saying he's too pro-Russia, or a pawn or whatever, wouldn't really change anything else would they?
Additionally, The NYT and a LOT of liberals are exposing a latent homophobia with shit like this.
Trump should be siding with his intelligence agencies and taking actions based on the intelligence agencies (sanctions) rather than trusting Putin. Inaction is still action. Forgive me, but why should Trump publicly build up his intelligence agencies rather than equivocate on them? These are the same intelligence agencies that tried to infiltrate his campaign and bait him into committing a crime. These are the same intelligence agencies who have been leaking shit to undermine his presidency at every turn. These are the same intelligence agencies that had people like Brennan heading them, who today, has ludicrously accused the president of treason for what he said at the press conference. There's no political reason for Trump to give them cover until he gets them under control. Hello ? Separation of powers, democracy ? Arguing that they were or are corrupt may be valid, but wanting them to be under the control of the executive power, please do not. Seriously. Especially under this president that is talking about nukes like I talk about my breakfast. We have been at peace (mostly, at least in our western areas) for 70 years, and you want the balance of power of the strongest country in the world to fail ? Separation of powers is not a license to commit treason or other criminal acts. If the actions that the FBI and intelligence community have taken against Trump and his campaign are without legitimate predicate (which is not only the default presumption, but also appears to be the case in fact so far), then those organizations need to be thoroughly cleaned out.
Lol I can't even.
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On July 17 2018 05:48 TheLordofAwesome wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2018 05:34 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 17 2018 05:29 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2018 05:27 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 17 2018 05:18 JimmiC wrote:On July 17 2018 05:06 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 17 2018 04:59 JimmiC wrote:On July 17 2018 04:51 m4ini wrote:On July 17 2018 04:40 JimmiC wrote:On July 17 2018 04:32 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Trump should probably be executed, but jailed would be fine with me. Our system is designed to prevent that from happening so all this hand-wringing over Trump-Russia as if that's the problem is petty and pointless. I haven't been shy about that position.
Surely people see the comedy in this "of course we don't know what we are calling for" coming from the same people who expect detailed proposals for anything that doesn't immediately align with their perspective. Bullet to the back of the head like your man Lennin and Stalin. Why even have a trial. Who else should we murder while we are at it? And who should have this power, you personally or someone else? You do know that the US still has the death penalty, right? And that treason is a capital crime punishable by many things including the death penalty? edit: without arguing for or against the initial argument, yours is just stupid. Pretty sure he's not on board for an investigation and trial since he feels none of those work in the USA to rich, white and privileged. So I strongly doubt that was what he was going for. Uhh, there already is an investigation, and it's not going to end in Trump on trial or being held accountable. So either he's not guilty or the system is broken/working as intended, or maybe both. I think he's the embodiment of a lot of what is wrong in this country, guilty of a whole host of crimes, not the least of which blowing innocent people into pieces, but in the US that's just a Tuesday for a president so you're right that I don't maintain the blind faith others do that the justice system would find him guilty for treason if he was 100x over. See not looking for a trial and execution. He's talking about what I said in the other post. And for the record I disagree with it. Edit: and I don't have blind faith in the justice system, just that it is a lot better than what happens in dictatorships of all flavors. lol I'm not against a trial, though I am personally against the death penalty. What about Trump getting off consequence free would be better than him being executed though? Are you saying with or without a trial? With, but without presumes that people genuinely think all this blathering about Trump-Russia is actually about nothing deserving a more severe penalty than gets handed out for stealing formula from Walmart for anyone involved. Espionage, money laundering, etc., are generally considered more severe crimes with stiffer penalties than petty theft. So far we've had dozens of Russians indicted and the indictments have contained very specific allegations, right down to the unit numbers of the GRU hackers. Now we are seeing another Russian charged today. We've seen four Americans plead guilty to curiously soft charges (HINT: It means they've flipped and are cooperating with prosecutors to nail a bigger target to save their own skins.). If you think Trump and everyone surrounding him aren't going to be charged by Mueller, then you are a colossal idiot.
I would say the same to anyone who thinks some cronies being charged = Trump being held accountable. Or that all this Trump-Russia and "treason" stuff is about some money laundering or some Russian intelligence people. Or that they'll face penalties stiffer than poor folks see for stealing food to feed babies.
EDIT: Charges aren't convictions and sentences btw
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On July 17 2018 05:50 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2018 05:44 Nouar wrote:On July 17 2018 03:54 xDaunt wrote:On July 17 2018 03:43 Mohdoo wrote:On July 17 2018 03:31 GreenHorizons wrote:People don't actually want Trump to do anything differently when it comes to Russia, they just want him to talk differently right? Besides how he talks about Russia people saying he's too pro-Russia, or a pawn or whatever, wouldn't really change anything else would they? Additionally, The NYT and a LOT of liberals are exposing a latent homophobia with shit like this. https://twitter.com/nytopinion/status/1018770963813490688 Trump should be siding with his intelligence agencies and taking actions based on the intelligence agencies (sanctions) rather than trusting Putin. Inaction is still action. Forgive me, but why should Trump publicly build up his intelligence agencies rather than equivocate on them? These are the same intelligence agencies that tried to infiltrate his campaign and bait him into committing a crime. These are the same intelligence agencies who have been leaking shit to undermine his presidency at every turn. These are the same intelligence agencies that had people like Brennan heading them, who today, has ludicrously accused the president of treason for what he said at the press conference. There's no political reason for Trump to give them cover until he gets them under control. Hello ? Separation of powers, democracy ? Arguing that they were or are corrupt may be valid, but wanting them to be under the control of the executive power, please do not. Seriously. Especially under this president that is talking about nukes like I talk about my breakfast. We have been at peace (mostly, at least in our western areas) for 70 years, and you want the balance of power of the strongest country in the world to fail ? Separation of powers is not a license to commit treason or other criminal acts. If the actions that the FBI and intelligence community have taken against Trump and his campaign are without legitimate predicate (which is not only the default presumption, but also appears to be the case in fact so far), then those organizations need to be thoroughly cleaned out.
First, the "treason" talk that you and GH are spouting is really irritating from a legal standpoint. It is a matter of settled law that treason can only be successfully charged if the USA is currently in a shooting war against country X and the treasonous fellow in question did something to aid country X in that war. It doesn't matter if Mueller has tapes of Trump offering to give back Alaska to Putin in exchange for help with the election. It still wouldn't be treason.
Second, you argue that a neutral observer should have a "default presumption" that the FBI's actions with respect to the Trump campaign were "without legitimate predicate." Where does the standard of this "default presumption" come from? What actions has the FBI taken that were criminal? What is a "thorough clean[ing]" at the FBI likely to look like, and why should such an enterprise be undertaken?
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On July 17 2018 05:50 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2018 05:44 Nouar wrote:On July 17 2018 03:54 xDaunt wrote:On July 17 2018 03:43 Mohdoo wrote:On July 17 2018 03:31 GreenHorizons wrote:People don't actually want Trump to do anything differently when it comes to Russia, they just want him to talk differently right? Besides how he talks about Russia people saying he's too pro-Russia, or a pawn or whatever, wouldn't really change anything else would they? Additionally, The NYT and a LOT of liberals are exposing a latent homophobia with shit like this. https://twitter.com/nytopinion/status/1018770963813490688 Trump should be siding with his intelligence agencies and taking actions based on the intelligence agencies (sanctions) rather than trusting Putin. Inaction is still action. Forgive me, but why should Trump publicly build up his intelligence agencies rather than equivocate on them? These are the same intelligence agencies that tried to infiltrate his campaign and bait him into committing a crime. These are the same intelligence agencies who have been leaking shit to undermine his presidency at every turn. These are the same intelligence agencies that had people like Brennan heading them, who today, has ludicrously accused the president of treason for what he said at the press conference. There's no political reason for Trump to give them cover until he gets them under control. Hello ? Separation of powers, democracy ? Arguing that they were or are corrupt may be valid, but wanting them to be under the control of the executive power, please do not. Seriously. Especially under this president that is talking about nukes like I talk about my breakfast. We have been at peace (mostly, at least in our western areas) for 70 years, and you want the balance of power of the strongest country in the world to fail ? Separation of powers is not a license to commit treason or other criminal acts. If the actions that the FBI and intelligence community have taken against Trump and his campaign are without legitimate predicate (which is not only the default presumption, but also appears to be the case in fact so far), then those organizations need to be thoroughly cleaned out.
I'm not seeing a lot of evidence to back up these claims you keep making. But I am looking at Paul Manfort's trial for July 25, 2018 and a whole bunch of guilty pleas from people who worked on Trump's team. The investigation has showing there is a lot of fire behind that smoke, including the meeting between Russian operatives and Trump Jr.
@TheLordofAwesome: thank you - I was going to do the whole treason thing, but I didn't want to get into it again. People love to throw that word around.
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On July 17 2018 05:41 Ayaz2810 wrote:
Seeing and hearing a lot of people talking about their pro-Trump family members turning on Trump after this.
From Reddit: "For the first time in his life, my father just admitted that Trump may indeed be a traitor to the country. Up until this point, he has never questioned Trump in any way, and fully bought onto the "Hillary would have been terrible" train.
But after having just watched this press conference, he couldn't believe that the President of the United States did nothing but shit talk this country, and praise Russia.
Ladies and gentleman... I guess there is hope?"
I also just talked to a friend who loves to troll me online with pro-Trump memes. He was flabbergasted to say the least.
Also, #TRE45SON was trending last I looked. This *might* be the straw that breaks the camel's back?
I actually wanted to express the same sentiment, this last month, culminating in this shitshow, seems to be really sticking. I think in part it was primed the whole actual concentration camps for children bit not just going out of the news cycle in a few days like everything else. The severity of that atrocity and its time on air did damage.
And now this conference ordeal is not only extremely blatant at a somewhat fragile time (with 12+1 indictments dropping), but it's also showing Trump to be weak, and making the US look weak by proxy. Most of his stupidity is confident and aggressive, even if horrific and damaging to the collective sanity of those watching, this was not. I think for a couple of conservative voices, that weakness and deference from the POTUS is crossing a line, even Fox has run articles very critical of Trump's recent actions.
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On July 17 2018 05:52 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2018 05:48 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On July 17 2018 05:34 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 17 2018 05:29 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2018 05:27 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 17 2018 05:18 JimmiC wrote:On July 17 2018 05:06 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 17 2018 04:59 JimmiC wrote:On July 17 2018 04:51 m4ini wrote:On July 17 2018 04:40 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
Bullet to the back of the head like your man Lennin and Stalin. Why even have a trial. Who else should we murder while we are at it? And who should have this power, you personally or someone else? You do know that the US still has the death penalty, right? And that treason is a capital crime punishable by many things including the death penalty? edit: without arguing for or against the initial argument, yours is just stupid. Pretty sure he's not on board for an investigation and trial since he feels none of those work in the USA to rich, white and privileged. So I strongly doubt that was what he was going for. Uhh, there already is an investigation, and it's not going to end in Trump on trial or being held accountable. So either he's not guilty or the system is broken/working as intended, or maybe both. I think he's the embodiment of a lot of what is wrong in this country, guilty of a whole host of crimes, not the least of which blowing innocent people into pieces, but in the US that's just a Tuesday for a president so you're right that I don't maintain the blind faith others do that the justice system would find him guilty for treason if he was 100x over. See not looking for a trial and execution. He's talking about what I said in the other post. And for the record I disagree with it. Edit: and I don't have blind faith in the justice system, just that it is a lot better than what happens in dictatorships of all flavors. lol I'm not against a trial, though I am personally against the death penalty. What about Trump getting off consequence free would be better than him being executed though? Are you saying with or without a trial? With, but without presumes that people genuinely think all this blathering about Trump-Russia is actually about nothing deserving a more severe penalty than gets handed out for stealing formula from Walmart for anyone involved. Espionage, money laundering, etc., are generally considered more severe crimes with stiffer penalties than petty theft. So far we've had dozens of Russians indicted and the indictments have contained very specific allegations, right down to the unit numbers of the GRU hackers. Now we are seeing another Russian charged today. We've seen four Americans plead guilty to curiously soft charges (HINT: It means they've flipped and are cooperating with prosecutors to nail a bigger target to save their own skins.). If you think Trump and everyone surrounding him aren't going to be charged by Mueller, then you are a colossal idiot. I would say the same to anyone who thinks some cronies being charged = Trump being held accountable. Or that all this Trump-Russia and "treason" stuff is about some money laundering or some Russian intelligence people. Or that they'll face penalties stiffer than poor folks see for stealing food to feed babies. EDIT: Charges aren't convictions and sentences btw
GH: "I would say [you are a colossal idiot] to anyone who thinks... that all this Trump-Russia and 'treason' stuff is about some money laundering or some Russian intelligence people."
WTF? What do you THINK this investigation is about, if not money laundering and shady Russian spies?
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On July 17 2018 05:33 TheLordofAwesome wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2018 05:22 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2018 05:17 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On July 17 2018 04:45 ticklishmusic wrote:A criminal complaint was unsealed today in the District of Columbia charging a Russian national with conspiracy to act as an agent of the Russian Federation within the United States without prior notification to the Attorney General.
The announcement was made by Assistant Attorney General for National Security John C. Demers, U.S. Attorney for the District of Columbia Jessie K. Liu, and Nancy McNamara, Assistant Director in Charge of the FBI’s Washington Field Office.
Maria Butina, 29, a Russian citizen residing in Washington D.C., was arrested on July 15, 2018, in Washington, D.C., and made her initial appearance this afternoon before Magistrate Judge Deborah A. Robinson in the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia. She was ordered held pending a hearing set for July 18, 2018.
According to the affidavit in support of the complaint, from as early as 2015 and continuing through at least February 2017, Butina worked at the direction of a high-level official in the Russian government who was previously a member of the legislature of the Russian Federation and later became a top official at the Russian Central Bank. This Russian official was sanctioned by the U.S. Department of the Treasury, Office of Foreign Assets Control in April 2018.
The court filings detail the Russian official’s and Butina’s efforts for Butina to act as an agent of Russia inside the United States by developing relationships with U.S. persons and infiltrating organizations having influence in American politics, for the purpose of advancing the interests of the Russian Federation. The filings also describe certain actions taken by Butina to further this effort during multiple visits from Russia and, later, when she entered and resided in the United States on a student visa. The filings allege that she undertook her activities without officially disclosing the fact that she was acting as an agent of Russian government, as required by law.
The charges in criminal complaints are merely allegations and every defendant is presumed innocent unless and until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. The maximum penalty for conspiracy is five years. The maximum statutory sentence is prescribed by Congress and is provided here for informational purposes. If convicted of any offense, a defendant’s sentence will be determined by the court based on the advisory U.S. Sentencing Guidelines and other statutory factors.
The investigation into this matter was conducted by the FBI’s Washington Field Office. The case is being prosecuted by the National Security Section of the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the District of Columbia and the National Security Division of the U.S. Department of Justice. SourceApparently Sessions wasn't notified about this. And now I'm curious what persons/ orgs she was trying to influence. The GUN RIGHTS ORGANIZATION in the affidavit is the NRA. The RUSSIAN OFFICIAL who is Butina's boss is Alexander Torshin. US PERSON 1 is probably David Keene. This won’t be the first conservative organization they got their claws into. And the way these investigations work, it is a slow roll from the outside as it works its way into the real meat of the case. My bet is that we find out in the near future that a bunch of GOP members took money they should have known was not from a legit source. Or worse. Glad you brought up the GOP candidates taking money. The NRA has been asked about its unprecedentedly huge donations to the GOP in 2016. Its response was always "Well, any money we got from foreign sources, including Russia, was placed in separate accounts from our political and lobbying donations." But money is fungible. If money from Russia went to keeping the lights on or to payroll or to office supplies, that means the NRA had more cash on hand to donate to political organizations. The FBI clearly didn't buy their excuse. I wonder when Americans are going to start getting charged in these investigations. Watergate sent some 40-odd people to jail, I believe.
This bit is kind of insane:
On October 4, 2016, U.S. Person 1 sent an email to an acquaintance. The email
covered a number of topics. Within the email, U.S. Person 1 stated, "Unrelated to specific
presidential campaigns, I've been involved in securing a VERY private line of communication
between the Kremlin and key POLITICAL PARTY 1 leaders through, of all conduits, the [GUN
RIGHTS ORGANIZATION]."
I suppose we could play mad libs (lol pun) and say David Hogg, Never Again MSD and the Dems? But wow, this is nasty. The Russians apparently didn't spring for it, but it sure as heck wasn't from lack of trying on some people's parts.
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On July 17 2018 05:59 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2018 05:50 xDaunt wrote:On July 17 2018 05:44 Nouar wrote:On July 17 2018 03:54 xDaunt wrote:On July 17 2018 03:43 Mohdoo wrote:On July 17 2018 03:31 GreenHorizons wrote:People don't actually want Trump to do anything differently when it comes to Russia, they just want him to talk differently right? Besides how he talks about Russia people saying he's too pro-Russia, or a pawn or whatever, wouldn't really change anything else would they? Additionally, The NYT and a LOT of liberals are exposing a latent homophobia with shit like this. https://twitter.com/nytopinion/status/1018770963813490688 Trump should be siding with his intelligence agencies and taking actions based on the intelligence agencies (sanctions) rather than trusting Putin. Inaction is still action. Forgive me, but why should Trump publicly build up his intelligence agencies rather than equivocate on them? These are the same intelligence agencies that tried to infiltrate his campaign and bait him into committing a crime. These are the same intelligence agencies who have been leaking shit to undermine his presidency at every turn. These are the same intelligence agencies that had people like Brennan heading them, who today, has ludicrously accused the president of treason for what he said at the press conference. There's no political reason for Trump to give them cover until he gets them under control. Hello ? Separation of powers, democracy ? Arguing that they were or are corrupt may be valid, but wanting them to be under the control of the executive power, please do not. Seriously. Especially under this president that is talking about nukes like I talk about my breakfast. We have been at peace (mostly, at least in our western areas) for 70 years, and you want the balance of power of the strongest country in the world to fail ? Separation of powers is not a license to commit treason or other criminal acts. If the actions that the FBI and intelligence community have taken against Trump and his campaign are without legitimate predicate (which is not only the default presumption, but also appears to be the case in fact so far), then those organizations need to be thoroughly cleaned out. I'm not seeing a lot of evidence to back up these claims you keep making. But I am looking at Paul Manfort's trial for July 25, 2018 and a whole bunch of guilty pleas from people who worked on Trump's team. The investigation has showing there is a lot of fire behind that smoke, including the meeting between Russian operatives and Trump Jr. @TheLordofAwesome: thank you - I was going to do the whole treason thing, but I didn't want to get into it again. People love to throw that word around.
You do realize that Mueller already told the Court that there won't be any evidence of, or argument regarding, Trump campaign/Russia collusion, right? That trial will be strictly about pre-campaign stuff.
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On July 17 2018 06:06 TheLordofAwesome wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2018 05:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 17 2018 05:48 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On July 17 2018 05:34 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 17 2018 05:29 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2018 05:27 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 17 2018 05:18 JimmiC wrote:On July 17 2018 05:06 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 17 2018 04:59 JimmiC wrote:On July 17 2018 04:51 m4ini wrote:
[quote]
You do know that the US still has the death penalty, right? And that treason is a capital crime punishable by many things including the death penalty?
edit: without arguing for or against the initial argument, yours is just stupid. Pretty sure he's not on board for an investigation and trial since he feels none of those work in the USA to rich, white and privileged. So I strongly doubt that was what he was going for. Uhh, there already is an investigation, and it's not going to end in Trump on trial or being held accountable. So either he's not guilty or the system is broken/working as intended, or maybe both. I think he's the embodiment of a lot of what is wrong in this country, guilty of a whole host of crimes, not the least of which blowing innocent people into pieces, but in the US that's just a Tuesday for a president so you're right that I don't maintain the blind faith others do that the justice system would find him guilty for treason if he was 100x over. See not looking for a trial and execution. He's talking about what I said in the other post. And for the record I disagree with it. Edit: and I don't have blind faith in the justice system, just that it is a lot better than what happens in dictatorships of all flavors. lol I'm not against a trial, though I am personally against the death penalty. What about Trump getting off consequence free would be better than him being executed though? Are you saying with or without a trial? With, but without presumes that people genuinely think all this blathering about Trump-Russia is actually about nothing deserving a more severe penalty than gets handed out for stealing formula from Walmart for anyone involved. Espionage, money laundering, etc., are generally considered more severe crimes with stiffer penalties than petty theft. So far we've had dozens of Russians indicted and the indictments have contained very specific allegations, right down to the unit numbers of the GRU hackers. Now we are seeing another Russian charged today. We've seen four Americans plead guilty to curiously soft charges (HINT: It means they've flipped and are cooperating with prosecutors to nail a bigger target to save their own skins.). If you think Trump and everyone surrounding him aren't going to be charged by Mueller, then you are a colossal idiot. I would say the same to anyone who thinks some cronies being charged = Trump being held accountable. Or that all this Trump-Russia and "treason" stuff is about some money laundering or some Russian intelligence people. Or that they'll face penalties stiffer than poor folks see for stealing food to feed babies. EDIT: Charges aren't convictions and sentences btw GH: "I would say [you are a colossal idiot] to anyone who thinks... that all this Trump-Russia and 'treason' stuff is about some money laundering or some Russian intelligence people." WTF? What do you THINK this investigation is about, if not money laundering and shady Russian spies?
I think you missed the point of that.
The people saying Trump is treasonous aren't saying it because some Russians spies did Russian spy things or corrupt millionaires laundering money or not properly disclosing international relationships.
On July 17 2018 06:08 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2018 05:59 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2018 05:50 xDaunt wrote:On July 17 2018 05:44 Nouar wrote:On July 17 2018 03:54 xDaunt wrote:On July 17 2018 03:43 Mohdoo wrote:On July 17 2018 03:31 GreenHorizons wrote:People don't actually want Trump to do anything differently when it comes to Russia, they just want him to talk differently right? Besides how he talks about Russia people saying he's too pro-Russia, or a pawn or whatever, wouldn't really change anything else would they? Additionally, The NYT and a LOT of liberals are exposing a latent homophobia with shit like this. https://twitter.com/nytopinion/status/1018770963813490688 Trump should be siding with his intelligence agencies and taking actions based on the intelligence agencies (sanctions) rather than trusting Putin. Inaction is still action. Forgive me, but why should Trump publicly build up his intelligence agencies rather than equivocate on them? These are the same intelligence agencies that tried to infiltrate his campaign and bait him into committing a crime. These are the same intelligence agencies who have been leaking shit to undermine his presidency at every turn. These are the same intelligence agencies that had people like Brennan heading them, who today, has ludicrously accused the president of treason for what he said at the press conference. There's no political reason for Trump to give them cover until he gets them under control. Hello ? Separation of powers, democracy ? Arguing that they were or are corrupt may be valid, but wanting them to be under the control of the executive power, please do not. Seriously. Especially under this president that is talking about nukes like I talk about my breakfast. We have been at peace (mostly, at least in our western areas) for 70 years, and you want the balance of power of the strongest country in the world to fail ? Separation of powers is not a license to commit treason or other criminal acts. If the actions that the FBI and intelligence community have taken against Trump and his campaign are without legitimate predicate (which is not only the default presumption, but also appears to be the case in fact so far), then those organizations need to be thoroughly cleaned out. I'm not seeing a lot of evidence to back up these claims you keep making. But I am looking at Paul Manfort's trial for July 25, 2018 and a whole bunch of guilty pleas from people who worked on Trump's team. The investigation has showing there is a lot of fire behind that smoke, including the meeting between Russian operatives and Trump Jr. @TheLordofAwesome: thank you - I was going to do the whole treason thing, but I didn't want to get into it again. People love to throw that word around. You do realize that Mueller already told the Court that there won't be any evidence of, or argument regarding, Trump campaign/Russia collusion, right? That trial will be strictly about pre-campaign stuff.
Pretty safe to say they missed that.
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On July 17 2018 06:08 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2018 05:59 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2018 05:50 xDaunt wrote:On July 17 2018 05:44 Nouar wrote:On July 17 2018 03:54 xDaunt wrote:On July 17 2018 03:43 Mohdoo wrote:On July 17 2018 03:31 GreenHorizons wrote:People don't actually want Trump to do anything differently when it comes to Russia, they just want him to talk differently right? Besides how he talks about Russia people saying he's too pro-Russia, or a pawn or whatever, wouldn't really change anything else would they? Additionally, The NYT and a LOT of liberals are exposing a latent homophobia with shit like this. https://twitter.com/nytopinion/status/1018770963813490688 Trump should be siding with his intelligence agencies and taking actions based on the intelligence agencies (sanctions) rather than trusting Putin. Inaction is still action. Forgive me, but why should Trump publicly build up his intelligence agencies rather than equivocate on them? These are the same intelligence agencies that tried to infiltrate his campaign and bait him into committing a crime. These are the same intelligence agencies who have been leaking shit to undermine his presidency at every turn. These are the same intelligence agencies that had people like Brennan heading them, who today, has ludicrously accused the president of treason for what he said at the press conference. There's no political reason for Trump to give them cover until he gets them under control. Hello ? Separation of powers, democracy ? Arguing that they were or are corrupt may be valid, but wanting them to be under the control of the executive power, please do not. Seriously. Especially under this president that is talking about nukes like I talk about my breakfast. We have been at peace (mostly, at least in our western areas) for 70 years, and you want the balance of power of the strongest country in the world to fail ? Separation of powers is not a license to commit treason or other criminal acts. If the actions that the FBI and intelligence community have taken against Trump and his campaign are without legitimate predicate (which is not only the default presumption, but also appears to be the case in fact so far), then those organizations need to be thoroughly cleaned out. I'm not seeing a lot of evidence to back up these claims you keep making. But I am looking at Paul Manfort's trial for July 25, 2018 and a whole bunch of guilty pleas from people who worked on Trump's team. The investigation has showing there is a lot of fire behind that smoke, including the meeting between Russian operatives and Trump Jr. @TheLordofAwesome: thank you - I was going to do the whole treason thing, but I didn't want to get into it again. People love to throw that word around. You do realize that Mueller already told the Court that there won't be any evidence of, or argument regarding, Trump campaign/Russia collusion, right? That trial will be strictly about pre-campaign stuff.
Collusion isn't a crime. Receiving material support from a foreign goverment in an election is a crime. I am not aware of him saying that Trump will never be involved, only that the current charges don't relate to them at this time. And the investigation is into Russia meddling in the US election, which happened to run into the Trump camp. It could rope in some Democrats too. The sky is the limit with this.
The part that you continue to dance around is that this investigation would still take place even if Trump’s folks were not involved.
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I think this recent big news with the NRA supports my theory that we are intentionally being slow-fed information to avoid culture shock associated with the Mueller investigation. Butina gives us some difficult to ignore hints as to what may be coming next. Looks like we are getting close to the final unveiling of "here is who directly worked with Russians to win elections".
The NRA is a great gateway for a lot of reasons. The main reason is that it is difficult to attack the NRA politically. Recent shootings have weakened the NRA's invincibility, but it remains hard to fight. All of the Cletuses of the country get a knee jerk reaction whenever the NRA is questioned and that makes them a great gateway into American influence. Aside from that, they are also well connected.
I expect within the next 2 weeks, we will be given actual names of people who were politically aided by Russian intelligence.
I find myself anxious, wanting for more information to come out sooner than later just in case republicans try to kill the investigation. But the recent slapping down of the attempt to impeach Rosenstein is at least somewhat comforting. I think this slow release of information is an overall net positive for our country. Cletus will never be willing to consider Russia's interference, but the somewhat educated cousins of Cletus will likely be given pause when considering how they vote. I am curious to see what further information is released with regards to Butina.
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On July 17 2018 06:13 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2018 06:08 xDaunt wrote:On July 17 2018 05:59 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2018 05:50 xDaunt wrote:On July 17 2018 05:44 Nouar wrote:On July 17 2018 03:54 xDaunt wrote:On July 17 2018 03:43 Mohdoo wrote:On July 17 2018 03:31 GreenHorizons wrote:People don't actually want Trump to do anything differently when it comes to Russia, they just want him to talk differently right? Besides how he talks about Russia people saying he's too pro-Russia, or a pawn or whatever, wouldn't really change anything else would they? Additionally, The NYT and a LOT of liberals are exposing a latent homophobia with shit like this. https://twitter.com/nytopinion/status/1018770963813490688 Trump should be siding with his intelligence agencies and taking actions based on the intelligence agencies (sanctions) rather than trusting Putin. Inaction is still action. Forgive me, but why should Trump publicly build up his intelligence agencies rather than equivocate on them? These are the same intelligence agencies that tried to infiltrate his campaign and bait him into committing a crime. These are the same intelligence agencies who have been leaking shit to undermine his presidency at every turn. These are the same intelligence agencies that had people like Brennan heading them, who today, has ludicrously accused the president of treason for what he said at the press conference. There's no political reason for Trump to give them cover until he gets them under control. Hello ? Separation of powers, democracy ? Arguing that they were or are corrupt may be valid, but wanting them to be under the control of the executive power, please do not. Seriously. Especially under this president that is talking about nukes like I talk about my breakfast. We have been at peace (mostly, at least in our western areas) for 70 years, and you want the balance of power of the strongest country in the world to fail ? Separation of powers is not a license to commit treason or other criminal acts. If the actions that the FBI and intelligence community have taken against Trump and his campaign are without legitimate predicate (which is not only the default presumption, but also appears to be the case in fact so far), then those organizations need to be thoroughly cleaned out. I'm not seeing a lot of evidence to back up these claims you keep making. But I am looking at Paul Manfort's trial for July 25, 2018 and a whole bunch of guilty pleas from people who worked on Trump's team. The investigation has showing there is a lot of fire behind that smoke, including the meeting between Russian operatives and Trump Jr. @TheLordofAwesome: thank you - I was going to do the whole treason thing, but I didn't want to get into it again. People love to throw that word around. You do realize that Mueller already told the Court that there won't be any evidence of, or argument regarding, Trump campaign/Russia collusion, right? That trial will be strictly about pre-campaign stuff. Collusion isn't a crime. Receiving material support from a foreign goverment in an election is a crime. I am not aware of him saying that Trump will never be involved, only that the current charges don't relate to them at this time. And the investigation is into Russia meddling in the US election, which happened to run into the Trump camp. It could rope in some Democrats too. The sky is the limit with this. The part that you continue to dance around is that this investigation would still take place even if Trump’s folks were not involved.
Uh, there will be no evidence of anything related to the campaign. None of the charges have to do with the campaign. Even if Mueller had evidence related to campaign, it wouldn't come in under evidentiary rules because it simply isn't relevant to the charges that will be subject of the trial.
EDIT: Nevermind, you're talking about the ongoing investigation. Well, good luck.
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On July 17 2018 06:07 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2018 05:33 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On July 17 2018 05:22 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2018 05:17 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On July 17 2018 04:45 ticklishmusic wrote:A criminal complaint was unsealed today in the District of Columbia charging a Russian national with conspiracy to act as an agent of the Russian Federation within the United States without prior notification to the Attorney General.
The announcement was made by Assistant Attorney General for National Security John C. Demers, U.S. Attorney for the District of Columbia Jessie K. Liu, and Nancy McNamara, Assistant Director in Charge of the FBI’s Washington Field Office.
Maria Butina, 29, a Russian citizen residing in Washington D.C., was arrested on July 15, 2018, in Washington, D.C., and made her initial appearance this afternoon before Magistrate Judge Deborah A. Robinson in the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia. She was ordered held pending a hearing set for July 18, 2018.
According to the affidavit in support of the complaint, from as early as 2015 and continuing through at least February 2017, Butina worked at the direction of a high-level official in the Russian government who was previously a member of the legislature of the Russian Federation and later became a top official at the Russian Central Bank. This Russian official was sanctioned by the U.S. Department of the Treasury, Office of Foreign Assets Control in April 2018.
The court filings detail the Russian official’s and Butina’s efforts for Butina to act as an agent of Russia inside the United States by developing relationships with U.S. persons and infiltrating organizations having influence in American politics, for the purpose of advancing the interests of the Russian Federation. The filings also describe certain actions taken by Butina to further this effort during multiple visits from Russia and, later, when she entered and resided in the United States on a student visa. The filings allege that she undertook her activities without officially disclosing the fact that she was acting as an agent of Russian government, as required by law.
The charges in criminal complaints are merely allegations and every defendant is presumed innocent unless and until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. The maximum penalty for conspiracy is five years. The maximum statutory sentence is prescribed by Congress and is provided here for informational purposes. If convicted of any offense, a defendant’s sentence will be determined by the court based on the advisory U.S. Sentencing Guidelines and other statutory factors.
The investigation into this matter was conducted by the FBI’s Washington Field Office. The case is being prosecuted by the National Security Section of the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the District of Columbia and the National Security Division of the U.S. Department of Justice. SourceApparently Sessions wasn't notified about this. And now I'm curious what persons/ orgs she was trying to influence. The GUN RIGHTS ORGANIZATION in the affidavit is the NRA. The RUSSIAN OFFICIAL who is Butina's boss is Alexander Torshin. US PERSON 1 is probably David Keene. This won’t be the first conservative organization they got their claws into. And the way these investigations work, it is a slow roll from the outside as it works its way into the real meat of the case. My bet is that we find out in the near future that a bunch of GOP members took money they should have known was not from a legit source. Or worse. Glad you brought up the GOP candidates taking money. The NRA has been asked about its unprecedentedly huge donations to the GOP in 2016. Its response was always "Well, any money we got from foreign sources, including Russia, was placed in separate accounts from our political and lobbying donations." But money is fungible. If money from Russia went to keeping the lights on or to payroll or to office supplies, that means the NRA had more cash on hand to donate to political organizations. The FBI clearly didn't buy their excuse. I wonder when Americans are going to start getting charged in these investigations. Watergate sent some 40-odd people to jail, I believe. This bit is kind of insane: Show nested quote +On October 4, 2016, U.S. Person 1 sent an email to an acquaintance. The email
covered a number of topics. Within the email, U.S. Person 1 stated, "Unrelated to specific
presidential campaigns, I've been involved in securing a VERY private line of communication
between the Kremlin and key POLITICAL PARTY 1 leaders through, of all conduits, the [GUN
RIGHTS ORGANIZATION]." I suppose we could play mad libs (lol pun) and say David Hogg, Never Again MSD and the Dems? But wow, this is nasty.
Yes, it is. US Person 1 is David Keene, POLITICAL PARTY 1 is the Republicans, and GUN RIGHTS ORG is the NRA.
EDIT: nvm
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On July 17 2018 06:11 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2018 06:06 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On July 17 2018 05:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 17 2018 05:48 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On July 17 2018 05:34 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 17 2018 05:29 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2018 05:27 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 17 2018 05:18 JimmiC wrote:On July 17 2018 05:06 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 17 2018 04:59 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
Pretty sure he's not on board for an investigation and trial since he feels none of those work in the USA to rich, white and privileged. So I strongly doubt that was what he was going for. Uhh, there already is an investigation, and it's not going to end in Trump on trial or being held accountable. So either he's not guilty or the system is broken/working as intended, or maybe both. I think he's the embodiment of a lot of what is wrong in this country, guilty of a whole host of crimes, not the least of which blowing innocent people into pieces, but in the US that's just a Tuesday for a president so you're right that I don't maintain the blind faith others do that the justice system would find him guilty for treason if he was 100x over. See not looking for a trial and execution. He's talking about what I said in the other post. And for the record I disagree with it. Edit: and I don't have blind faith in the justice system, just that it is a lot better than what happens in dictatorships of all flavors. lol I'm not against a trial, though I am personally against the death penalty. What about Trump getting off consequence free would be better than him being executed though? Are you saying with or without a trial? With, but without presumes that people genuinely think all this blathering about Trump-Russia is actually about nothing deserving a more severe penalty than gets handed out for stealing formula from Walmart for anyone involved. Espionage, money laundering, etc., are generally considered more severe crimes with stiffer penalties than petty theft. So far we've had dozens of Russians indicted and the indictments have contained very specific allegations, right down to the unit numbers of the GRU hackers. Now we are seeing another Russian charged today. We've seen four Americans plead guilty to curiously soft charges (HINT: It means they've flipped and are cooperating with prosecutors to nail a bigger target to save their own skins.). If you think Trump and everyone surrounding him aren't going to be charged by Mueller, then you are a colossal idiot. I would say the same to anyone who thinks some cronies being charged = Trump being held accountable. Or that all this Trump-Russia and "treason" stuff is about some money laundering or some Russian intelligence people. Or that they'll face penalties stiffer than poor folks see for stealing food to feed babies. EDIT: Charges aren't convictions and sentences btw GH: "I would say [you are a colossal idiot] to anyone who thinks... that all this Trump-Russia and 'treason' stuff is about some money laundering or some Russian intelligence people." WTF? What do you THINK this investigation is about, if not money laundering and shady Russian spies? I think you missed the point of that. The people saying Trump is treasonous aren't saying it because some Russians spies did Russian spy things or corrupt millionaires laundering money or not properly disclosing international relationships.
So, then, why are they saying his behavior has been treasonous, in the layman's sense of the word.
Show nested quote +On July 17 2018 06:08 xDaunt wrote:On July 17 2018 05:59 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2018 05:50 xDaunt wrote:On July 17 2018 05:44 Nouar wrote:On July 17 2018 03:54 xDaunt wrote:On July 17 2018 03:43 Mohdoo wrote:On July 17 2018 03:31 GreenHorizons wrote:People don't actually want Trump to do anything differently when it comes to Russia, they just want him to talk differently right? Besides how he talks about Russia people saying he's too pro-Russia, or a pawn or whatever, wouldn't really change anything else would they? Additionally, The NYT and a LOT of liberals are exposing a latent homophobia with shit like this. https://twitter.com/nytopinion/status/1018770963813490688 Trump should be siding with his intelligence agencies and taking actions based on the intelligence agencies (sanctions) rather than trusting Putin. Inaction is still action. Forgive me, but why should Trump publicly build up his intelligence agencies rather than equivocate on them? These are the same intelligence agencies that tried to infiltrate his campaign and bait him into committing a crime. These are the same intelligence agencies who have been leaking shit to undermine his presidency at every turn. These are the same intelligence agencies that had people like Brennan heading them, who today, has ludicrously accused the president of treason for what he said at the press conference. There's no political reason for Trump to give them cover until he gets them under control. Hello ? Separation of powers, democracy ? Arguing that they were or are corrupt may be valid, but wanting them to be under the control of the executive power, please do not. Seriously. Especially under this president that is talking about nukes like I talk about my breakfast. We have been at peace (mostly, at least in our western areas) for 70 years, and you want the balance of power of the strongest country in the world to fail ? Separation of powers is not a license to commit treason or other criminal acts. If the actions that the FBI and intelligence community have taken against Trump and his campaign are without legitimate predicate (which is not only the default presumption, but also appears to be the case in fact so far), then those organizations need to be thoroughly cleaned out. I'm not seeing a lot of evidence to back up these claims you keep making. But I am looking at Paul Manfort's trial for July 25, 2018 and a whole bunch of guilty pleas from people who worked on Trump's team. The investigation has showing there is a lot of fire behind that smoke, including the meeting between Russian operatives and Trump Jr. @TheLordofAwesome: thank you - I was going to do the whole treason thing, but I didn't want to get into it again. People love to throw that word around. You do realize that Mueller already told the Court that there won't be any evidence of, or argument regarding, Trump campaign/Russia collusion, right? That trial will be strictly about pre-campaign stuff. Pretty safe to say they missed that.
Manafort's July trial is solely about his various financial crimes. Manafort's charges were among the first unveiled by Mueller. Flynn, Papadopolous, and Pinedo didn't even get formally charged, they went straight to a plea deal. I believe Gates was formally charged but then flipped on Manafort. Anyways, the point is that Manafort's charges were all financial crimes that were announced over half a year ago but the case is only now coming to trial because the legal system takes time.
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On July 17 2018 04:57 ShoCkeyy wrote:http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/397245-mccain-trump-performance-disgracefulhttps://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/16/john-mccain-says-trump-abased-himself-before-putin-at-summit.html"RINO"s are coming out to play.. McCain still using his seat to throw fire under Trump. It's pretty obvioust that McCain is teetering a fine line when it comes to his party, and his actual thoughts of the current party. Show nested quote +"Today’s press conference in Helsinki was one of the most disgraceful performances by an American president in memory. The damage inflicted by President Trump’s naiveté, egotism, false equivalence, and sympathy for autocrats is difficult to calculate. But it is clear that the summit in Helsinki was a tragic mistake.
President Trump proved not only unable, but unwilling to stand up to Putin. He and Putin seemed to be speaking from the same script as the president made a conscious choice to defend a tyrant against the fair questions of a free press, and to grant Putin an uncontested platform to spew propaganda and lies to the world.
It is tempting to describe the press conference as a pathetic rout – as an illustration of the perils of under-preparation and inexperience. But these were not the errant tweets of a novice politician. These were the deliberate choices of a president who seems determined to realize his delusions of a warm relationship with Putin’s regime without any regard for the true nature of his rule, his violent disregard for the sovereignty of his neighbors, his complicity in the slaughter of the Syrian people, his violation of international treaties, and his assault on democratic institutions throughout the world.
Coming close on the heels of President Trump’s bombastic and erratic conduct towards our closest friends and allies in Brussels and Britain, today’s press conference marks a recent low point in the history of the American Presidency. That the president was attended in Helsinki by a team of competent and patriotic advisors makes his blunders and capitulations all the more painful and inexplicable.
No prior president has ever abased himself more abjectly before a tyrant. Not only did President Trump fail to speak the truth about an adversary; but speaking for America to the world, our president failed to defend all that makes us who we are—a republic of free people dedicated to the cause of liberty at home and abroad. American presidents must be the champions of that cause if it is to succeed. Americans are waiting and hoping for President Trump to embrace that sacred responsibility. One can only hope they are not waiting totally in vain.”
Following up on my last post, now Ryan is seeming to "grow a backbone"?...
https://www.speaker.gov/press-release/statement-russia
WASHINGTON—House Speaker Paul Ryan (R-WI) today issued the following statement:
"There is no question that Russia interfered in our election and continues attempts to undermine democracy here and around the world. That is not just the finding of the American intelligence community but also the House Committee on Intelligence. The president must appreciate that Russia is not our ally. There is no moral equivalence between the United States and Russia, which remains hostile to our most basic values and ideals. The United States must be focused on holding Russia accountable and putting an end to its vile attacks on democracy."
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For the very little bit it is worth, conspiracy witch Louise Mensch has been saying for months that Republican leadership was taped agreeing to take campaign money from Russia. Absent any actual tape, I don't believe that allegation specifically. However, this NRA stuff is leading me to believe the underlying allegation might be true.
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On July 17 2018 06:26 TheLordofAwesome wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2018 06:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 17 2018 06:06 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On July 17 2018 05:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 17 2018 05:48 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On July 17 2018 05:34 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 17 2018 05:29 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2018 05:27 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 17 2018 05:18 JimmiC wrote:On July 17 2018 05:06 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Uhh, there already is an investigation, and it's not going to end in Trump on trial or being held accountable. So either he's not guilty or the system is broken/working as intended, or maybe both. I think he's the embodiment of a lot of what is wrong in this country, guilty of a whole host of crimes, not the least of which blowing innocent people into pieces, but in the US that's just a Tuesday for a president so you're right that I don't maintain the blind faith others do that the justice system would find him guilty for treason if he was 100x over. See not looking for a trial and execution. He's talking about what I said in the other post. And for the record I disagree with it. Edit: and I don't have blind faith in the justice system, just that it is a lot better than what happens in dictatorships of all flavors. lol I'm not against a trial, though I am personally against the death penalty. What about Trump getting off consequence free would be better than him being executed though? Are you saying with or without a trial? With, but without presumes that people genuinely think all this blathering about Trump-Russia is actually about nothing deserving a more severe penalty than gets handed out for stealing formula from Walmart for anyone involved. Espionage, money laundering, etc., are generally considered more severe crimes with stiffer penalties than petty theft. So far we've had dozens of Russians indicted and the indictments have contained very specific allegations, right down to the unit numbers of the GRU hackers. Now we are seeing another Russian charged today. We've seen four Americans plead guilty to curiously soft charges (HINT: It means they've flipped and are cooperating with prosecutors to nail a bigger target to save their own skins.). If you think Trump and everyone surrounding him aren't going to be charged by Mueller, then you are a colossal idiot. I would say the same to anyone who thinks some cronies being charged = Trump being held accountable. Or that all this Trump-Russia and "treason" stuff is about some money laundering or some Russian intelligence people. Or that they'll face penalties stiffer than poor folks see for stealing food to feed babies. EDIT: Charges aren't convictions and sentences btw GH: "I would say [you are a colossal idiot] to anyone who thinks... that all this Trump-Russia and 'treason' stuff is about some money laundering or some Russian intelligence people." WTF? What do you THINK this investigation is about, if not money laundering and shady Russian spies? I think you missed the point of that. The people saying Trump is treasonous aren't saying it because some Russians spies did Russian spy things or corrupt millionaires laundering money or not properly disclosing international relationships. So, then, why are they saying his behavior has been treasonous, in the layman's sense of the word. Show nested quote +On July 17 2018 06:08 xDaunt wrote:On July 17 2018 05:59 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2018 05:50 xDaunt wrote:On July 17 2018 05:44 Nouar wrote:On July 17 2018 03:54 xDaunt wrote:On July 17 2018 03:43 Mohdoo wrote:On July 17 2018 03:31 GreenHorizons wrote:People don't actually want Trump to do anything differently when it comes to Russia, they just want him to talk differently right? Besides how he talks about Russia people saying he's too pro-Russia, or a pawn or whatever, wouldn't really change anything else would they? Additionally, The NYT and a LOT of liberals are exposing a latent homophobia with shit like this. https://twitter.com/nytopinion/status/1018770963813490688 Trump should be siding with his intelligence agencies and taking actions based on the intelligence agencies (sanctions) rather than trusting Putin. Inaction is still action. Forgive me, but why should Trump publicly build up his intelligence agencies rather than equivocate on them? These are the same intelligence agencies that tried to infiltrate his campaign and bait him into committing a crime. These are the same intelligence agencies who have been leaking shit to undermine his presidency at every turn. These are the same intelligence agencies that had people like Brennan heading them, who today, has ludicrously accused the president of treason for what he said at the press conference. There's no political reason for Trump to give them cover until he gets them under control. Hello ? Separation of powers, democracy ? Arguing that they were or are corrupt may be valid, but wanting them to be under the control of the executive power, please do not. Seriously. Especially under this president that is talking about nukes like I talk about my breakfast. We have been at peace (mostly, at least in our western areas) for 70 years, and you want the balance of power of the strongest country in the world to fail ? Separation of powers is not a license to commit treason or other criminal acts. If the actions that the FBI and intelligence community have taken against Trump and his campaign are without legitimate predicate (which is not only the default presumption, but also appears to be the case in fact so far), then those organizations need to be thoroughly cleaned out. I'm not seeing a lot of evidence to back up these claims you keep making. But I am looking at Paul Manfort's trial for July 25, 2018 and a whole bunch of guilty pleas from people who worked on Trump's team. The investigation has showing there is a lot of fire behind that smoke, including the meeting between Russian operatives and Trump Jr. @TheLordofAwesome: thank you - I was going to do the whole treason thing, but I didn't want to get into it again. People love to throw that word around. You do realize that Mueller already told the Court that there won't be any evidence of, or argument regarding, Trump campaign/Russia collusion, right? That trial will be strictly about pre-campaign stuff. Pretty safe to say they missed that. Manafort's July trial is solely about his various financial crimes. Manafort's charges were among the first unveiled by Mueller. Flynn, Papadopolous, and Pinedo didn't even get formally charged, they went straight to a plea deal. I believe Gates was formally charged but then flipped on Manafort. Anyways, the point is that Manafort's charges were all financial crimes that were announced over half a year ago but the case is only now coming to trial because the legal system takes time.
Trump is "in the pocket", "a puppet", "possibly being blackmailed", "colluded", "stole the election with the Russians", and so on...
Surely you're familiar.
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On July 17 2018 06:30 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2018 06:26 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On July 17 2018 06:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 17 2018 06:06 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On July 17 2018 05:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 17 2018 05:48 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On July 17 2018 05:34 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 17 2018 05:29 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2018 05:27 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 17 2018 05:18 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
See not looking for a trial and execution. He's talking about what I said in the other post. And for the record I disagree with it.
Edit: and I don't have blind faith in the justice system, just that it is a lot better than what happens in dictatorships of all flavors. lol I'm not against a trial, though I am personally against the death penalty. What about Trump getting off consequence free would be better than him being executed though? Are you saying with or without a trial? With, but without presumes that people genuinely think all this blathering about Trump-Russia is actually about nothing deserving a more severe penalty than gets handed out for stealing formula from Walmart for anyone involved. Espionage, money laundering, etc., are generally considered more severe crimes with stiffer penalties than petty theft. So far we've had dozens of Russians indicted and the indictments have contained very specific allegations, right down to the unit numbers of the GRU hackers. Now we are seeing another Russian charged today. We've seen four Americans plead guilty to curiously soft charges (HINT: It means they've flipped and are cooperating with prosecutors to nail a bigger target to save their own skins.). If you think Trump and everyone surrounding him aren't going to be charged by Mueller, then you are a colossal idiot. I would say the same to anyone who thinks some cronies being charged = Trump being held accountable. Or that all this Trump-Russia and "treason" stuff is about some money laundering or some Russian intelligence people. Or that they'll face penalties stiffer than poor folks see for stealing food to feed babies. EDIT: Charges aren't convictions and sentences btw GH: "I would say [you are a colossal idiot] to anyone who thinks... that all this Trump-Russia and 'treason' stuff is about some money laundering or some Russian intelligence people." WTF? What do you THINK this investigation is about, if not money laundering and shady Russian spies? I think you missed the point of that. The people saying Trump is treasonous aren't saying it because some Russians spies did Russian spy things or corrupt millionaires laundering money or not properly disclosing international relationships. So, then, why are they saying his behavior has been treasonous, in the layman's sense of the word. On July 17 2018 06:08 xDaunt wrote:On July 17 2018 05:59 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2018 05:50 xDaunt wrote:On July 17 2018 05:44 Nouar wrote:On July 17 2018 03:54 xDaunt wrote:On July 17 2018 03:43 Mohdoo wrote:On July 17 2018 03:31 GreenHorizons wrote:People don't actually want Trump to do anything differently when it comes to Russia, they just want him to talk differently right? Besides how he talks about Russia people saying he's too pro-Russia, or a pawn or whatever, wouldn't really change anything else would they? Additionally, The NYT and a LOT of liberals are exposing a latent homophobia with shit like this. https://twitter.com/nytopinion/status/1018770963813490688 Trump should be siding with his intelligence agencies and taking actions based on the intelligence agencies (sanctions) rather than trusting Putin. Inaction is still action. Forgive me, but why should Trump publicly build up his intelligence agencies rather than equivocate on them? These are the same intelligence agencies that tried to infiltrate his campaign and bait him into committing a crime. These are the same intelligence agencies who have been leaking shit to undermine his presidency at every turn. These are the same intelligence agencies that had people like Brennan heading them, who today, has ludicrously accused the president of treason for what he said at the press conference. There's no political reason for Trump to give them cover until he gets them under control. Hello ? Separation of powers, democracy ? Arguing that they were or are corrupt may be valid, but wanting them to be under the control of the executive power, please do not. Seriously. Especially under this president that is talking about nukes like I talk about my breakfast. We have been at peace (mostly, at least in our western areas) for 70 years, and you want the balance of power of the strongest country in the world to fail ? Separation of powers is not a license to commit treason or other criminal acts. If the actions that the FBI and intelligence community have taken against Trump and his campaign are without legitimate predicate (which is not only the default presumption, but also appears to be the case in fact so far), then those organizations need to be thoroughly cleaned out. I'm not seeing a lot of evidence to back up these claims you keep making. But I am looking at Paul Manfort's trial for July 25, 2018 and a whole bunch of guilty pleas from people who worked on Trump's team. The investigation has showing there is a lot of fire behind that smoke, including the meeting between Russian operatives and Trump Jr. @TheLordofAwesome: thank you - I was going to do the whole treason thing, but I didn't want to get into it again. People love to throw that word around. You do realize that Mueller already told the Court that there won't be any evidence of, or argument regarding, Trump campaign/Russia collusion, right? That trial will be strictly about pre-campaign stuff. Pretty safe to say they missed that. Manafort's July trial is solely about his various financial crimes. Manafort's charges were among the first unveiled by Mueller. Flynn, Papadopolous, and Pinedo didn't even get formally charged, they went straight to a plea deal. I believe Gates was formally charged but then flipped on Manafort. Anyways, the point is that Manafort's charges were all financial crimes that were announced over half a year ago but the case is only now coming to trial because the legal system takes time. Trump is "in the pocket", "a puppet", "possibly being blackmailed", "colluded", "stole the election with the Russians", and so on... Surely you're familiar.
I'm not asking for examples of rhetoric. I'm asking, what exactly is the investigation of Team Trump about, if it's not money laundering, related financial crimes, and very weird and shady interactions with Russian spies? Because you claim only a colossal idiot would think that those 3 things are the basis of the probe....
The people saying Trump is treasonous aren't saying it because some Russians spies did Russian spy things or corrupt millionaires laundering money or not properly disclosing international relationships.
So what then, precisely, is Trump and Co. being investigated for?
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