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On February 20 2025 01:25 KwarK wrote:
Jock there is a very basic fundamental obligation we owe each other in a society and it’s not to all gang up on and persecute innocent minorities. You wholly excuse people who do that, insisting that they’re allowed to vote for whoever they want to vote for and they can’t be blamed for that. It’s utter nonsense. You can absolutely be blamed for how you vote. Votes aren’t sacrosanct, they’re not above the basic moral obligation we have to each other. It’s not “treat everyone with basic respect for human dignity except in voting stations where you’re allowed to vote for camps”. Honestly I don’t even know how you got the impression that they’re above judgement. Even in your example of two shops it doesn’t work. If one shop sold washing machines and the other shop sold slaves trained to wash clothes then I’m absolutely blaming someone who goes into the slave shop for their choice. Whereas your argument appears to be that the obligation of both shops is to win the business, the customer has no broader moral duty to society, and the shop not selling people made a mistake.
I'm aware of how responsibility for problems is shared around.
I guess what I'm saying is the sheer level of the Democrats' failure, the amount of support they lost, suggests that they need to take a long hard look at what they did wrong.
I don't see what good comes from blaming voters except to make themselves feel better about their own mistakes. It just isn't productive.
Clearly, everyone is responsible for the consequences of their own individual actions. An individual's vote does not lose a party an election. You have to go above the individual when looking at the reasons why something happened.
The example I always use of this is when the tories cut all the money from the police about a decade ago. Crime rates went sky high. Now you can blame the individual criminals for that, and nothing you would be saying would be technically false, but to fail to look at the bigger picture and the obvious link between the police having no time and no officers on the street and the massive rise in crime rate is just textbook avoiding of responsibility.
That is what I see when I see the Dems blaming voters.
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United States44286 Posts
On February 20 2025 02:14 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 01:25 KwarK wrote:
Jock there is a very basic fundamental obligation we owe each other in a society and it’s not to all gang up on and persecute innocent minorities. You wholly excuse people who do that, insisting that they’re allowed to vote for whoever they want to vote for and they can’t be blamed for that. It’s utter nonsense. You can absolutely be blamed for how you vote. Votes aren’t sacrosanct, they’re not above the basic moral obligation we have to each other. It’s not “treat everyone with basic respect for human dignity except in voting stations where you’re allowed to vote for camps”. Honestly I don’t even know how you got the impression that they’re above judgement. Even in your example of two shops it doesn’t work. If one shop sold washing machines and the other shop sold slaves trained to wash clothes then I’m absolutely blaming someone who goes into the slave shop for their choice. Whereas your argument appears to be that the obligation of both shops is to win the business, the customer has no broader moral duty to society, and the shop not selling people made a mistake. I'm aware of how responsibility for problems is shared around. I guess what I'm saying is the sheer level of the Democrats' failure, the amount of support they lost, suggests that they need to take a long hard look at what they did wrong. I don't see what good comes from blaming voters except to make themselves feel better about their own mistakes. It just isn't productive. Clearly, everyone is responsible for the consequences of their own individual actions. An individual's vote does not lose a party an election. You have to go above the individual when looking at the reasons why something happened. The example I always use of this is when the tories cut all the money from the police about a decade ago. Crime rates went sky high. Now you can blame the individual criminals for that, and nothing you would be saying would be technically false, but to fail to look at the bigger picture and the obvious link between the police having no time and no officers on the street and the massive rise in crime rate is just textbook avoiding of responsibility. That is what I see when I see the Dems blaming voters.
I wasn't blaming a specific individual, I was blaming a lot of individuals. Millions of them. Millions of individuals voting does lose a party the election. Those millions failed a basic moral test and should not be excused.
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On February 20 2025 02:11 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 02:08 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 02:03 EnDeR_ wrote:On February 20 2025 01:40 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 01:33 EnDeR_ wrote:On February 20 2025 00:25 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 00:07 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On February 19 2025 23:38 KwarK wrote:On February 19 2025 23:07 Acrofales wrote:On February 19 2025 22:56 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
There was an entire historical period in which vast amounts of money was spent on both the theory and the practical testing and application of tools to deal with fascist states. Everybody, including you, knows what works against fascists once they wield the powers of a state. So you think we're in 1939-stage fascism? I don't think you've had your Night of the Long Knives yet. At the very least you should try to set your Reichstag on fire first, right? They’re control big tech. They control the apps people use for communication. They control popular media. They’ve stacked the courts and are simply ignoring court orders they don’t like. They’ve removed all oversight and are concentrating executive power which they’ve also removed all restrictions on. They’ve had everyone wiretapped for decades. They’ve had Fox News on constantly in every army barracks for decades. We lost. The reason it was so important to vote Democrat in November was to avoid handing them the keys to the kingdom. But people were too morally pure to vote against the takeover and now those same people are going “what if we just tell the king no” as if the king gives a shit what they think. They wasted their shot. That's the funny part imo. Rs told everyone what they planned to do and dared the populace to stop them. They called the bluff and are now doing exactly what they said they would do. People being astonished is weird. Those that sat out, voted other, or voted trump to spite Ds hold so much blame it's sad. They can't even see that they are part of the problem and now want those that did their job to stop this, to help them correct their mistakes. All the while lambasting them and looking down their noses. Regardless of if the Ds did enough to "earn" your vote, this was preventable. @Ender, Acro, Drone, Uldridge, Slydie, Jock, etc... Do you see now how the lib/Dem/ilk went straight from "protests and strikes against genocide are too radical and hurt the status quo politicians we want to elect" to "it's too late for protests and strikes, everyone should give up" because they are too emotionally immature to admit that decades of their refusal to stop falling in line and remember the 1900's-1960's strategies of demanding more through direct action has led to these catastrophic consequences. Instead they want to reduce decades of their and their politicians (and the media's) failures to one night were millions of their own 2020 voters (not me or people like me) didn't show up to vote for them again (this time with extra genocide) in 2024 after Democrats/loyalists gaslit the hell out of them about Biden's mental/physical fitness to campaign/run the country starting well before the primary. It's childish, it's asinine, and it's how Trump is getting away with all this without Democrats or their supporters having any intention of doing anything about it. If you're not going to join in playing GTA Kwark, Zero, DPB, etc... you can at least have the decency to drop your batons and run like cowards (hell if I know where) instead. I think Drone would go on a peaceful demonstration to demand change. Same for Acro and same for me. I don't get the point you're making here. You and people like you pushed the genocide angle hard enough that it actually had a measurable (negative for the Dems) impact on the election. You didn't take a look at what Trump was selling and went like: I better do whatever I can to ensure he didn't get power! You went: I better make sure the only realistic opposition to Trump tanks hard! The idea was to get Democrats to stop aiding and abetting genocide in exchange for support. Democrats and their supporters insisted they didn't need that support, they instead needed the support of the people that supported them for their aiding and abetting genocide. They miscalculated. That is also assuming you credit all the votes they lost between 2020 and 2024 to their supporting genocide and not to the gaslighting, letting the parliamentarian stop them from passing minimum wage, cop cities, cracking down on protesters, record deportations, using the military to police civilians, or like 1000 other Democrat failures/bad accomplishments I could list. Which I realize I may need to explicitly say is absurdly ridiculous. EDIT: Also the preceding post to yours of course I just don't get why you think tanking democratic support is a better outcome? I + Show Spoiler + mean, you have stated numerous times that you want a socialist revolution. You see on TV a guy that is saying, fairly outrightly, that he is going to remove as many regulations and protections as he possibly can and giving more power to corporations; i.e. the opposite of your stated goal. And you went: right, Imma withdraw my vote from the only realistic opposition and shout it loud and clear so other people in other places do the same thing. I just don't get it. I know you don't. Because I didn't tank their support. They did. The idea it was me or people like me is giving us way more power than the millions more Democrats or several more posters Kwark is insisting it's ridiculous to ascribe agency to in this. You "just don't get it" because your premise is absurd. Apparently it's more absurd to ascribe an individual responsibility for their direct choice to vote and which party they vote for than it is to ascribe random TL posters responsibility for the internal decision making of the DNC.
Obviously people are responsible for their own personal gaslighting about Biden's capacity to campaign and stand for election in 2024 and the multitude of other examples in that vein. As well as supporting/voting for the politicians in the DNC and party generally for years/decades despite their heinous crimes against humanity and laying the foundations for fascism in the US.
But we're still looking in the wrong places imo. The problems are systemic and even much "better people" would end up here and if not Trump it would have been the next election with Democrats only having laid MORE of the foundations of fascism and normalized them for Democrats and their loyalists/sycophants/supporters.
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On February 20 2025 02:19 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 02:14 Jockmcplop wrote:On February 20 2025 01:25 KwarK wrote:
Jock there is a very basic fundamental obligation we owe each other in a society and it’s not to all gang up on and persecute innocent minorities. You wholly excuse people who do that, insisting that they’re allowed to vote for whoever they want to vote for and they can’t be blamed for that. It’s utter nonsense. You can absolutely be blamed for how you vote. Votes aren’t sacrosanct, they’re not above the basic moral obligation we have to each other. It’s not “treat everyone with basic respect for human dignity except in voting stations where you’re allowed to vote for camps”. Honestly I don’t even know how you got the impression that they’re above judgement. Even in your example of two shops it doesn’t work. If one shop sold washing machines and the other shop sold slaves trained to wash clothes then I’m absolutely blaming someone who goes into the slave shop for their choice. Whereas your argument appears to be that the obligation of both shops is to win the business, the customer has no broader moral duty to society, and the shop not selling people made a mistake. I'm aware of how responsibility for problems is shared around. I guess what I'm saying is the sheer level of the Democrats' failure, the amount of support they lost, suggests that they need to take a long hard look at what they did wrong. I don't see what good comes from blaming voters except to make themselves feel better about their own mistakes. It just isn't productive. Clearly, everyone is responsible for the consequences of their own individual actions. An individual's vote does not lose a party an election. You have to go above the individual when looking at the reasons why something happened. The example I always use of this is when the tories cut all the money from the police about a decade ago. Crime rates went sky high. Now you can blame the individual criminals for that, and nothing you would be saying would be technically false, but to fail to look at the bigger picture and the obvious link between the police having no time and no officers on the street and the massive rise in crime rate is just textbook avoiding of responsibility. That is what I see when I see the Dems blaming voters. I wasn't blaming a specific individual, I was blaming a lot of individuals. Millions of them. Millions of individuals voting does lose a party the election. Those millions failed a basic moral test and should not be excused.
I've explained why I think that's wrong.
We might not be able to agree to disagree but its pointless continuing to bang both our heads against brick walls and I'm sure no-one else wants to keep reading it.
I don't see anything useful in carrying on the conversation. We've both made our points, no sense in just repeating ourselves.
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United States44286 Posts
On February 20 2025 02:20 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 02:11 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 02:08 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 02:03 EnDeR_ wrote:On February 20 2025 01:40 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 01:33 EnDeR_ wrote:On February 20 2025 00:25 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 00:07 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On February 19 2025 23:38 KwarK wrote:On February 19 2025 23:07 Acrofales wrote:
[quote]
So you think we're in 1939-stage fascism? I don't think you've had your Night of the Long Knives yet. At the very least you should try to set your Reichstag on fire first, right? They’re control big tech. They control the apps people use for communication. They control popular media. They’ve stacked the courts and are simply ignoring court orders they don’t like. They’ve removed all oversight and are concentrating executive power which they’ve also removed all restrictions on. They’ve had everyone wiretapped for decades. They’ve had Fox News on constantly in every army barracks for decades. We lost. The reason it was so important to vote Democrat in November was to avoid handing them the keys to the kingdom. But people were too morally pure to vote against the takeover and now those same people are going “what if we just tell the king no” as if the king gives a shit what they think. They wasted their shot. That's the funny part imo. Rs told everyone what they planned to do and dared the populace to stop them. They called the bluff and are now doing exactly what they said they would do. People being astonished is weird. Those that sat out, voted other, or voted trump to spite Ds hold so much blame it's sad. They can't even see that they are part of the problem and now want those that did their job to stop this, to help them correct their mistakes. All the while lambasting them and looking down their noses. Regardless of if the Ds did enough to "earn" your vote, this was preventable. @Ender, Acro, Drone, Uldridge, Slydie, Jock, etc... Do you see now how the lib/Dem/ilk went straight from "protests and strikes against genocide are too radical and hurt the status quo politicians we want to elect" to "it's too late for protests and strikes, everyone should give up" because they are too emotionally immature to admit that decades of their refusal to stop falling in line and remember the 1900's-1960's strategies of demanding more through direct action has led to these catastrophic consequences. Instead they want to reduce decades of their and their politicians (and the media's) failures to one night were millions of their own 2020 voters (not me or people like me) didn't show up to vote for them again (this time with extra genocide) in 2024 after Democrats/loyalists gaslit the hell out of them about Biden's mental/physical fitness to campaign/run the country starting well before the primary. It's childish, it's asinine, and it's how Trump is getting away with all this without Democrats or their supporters having any intention of doing anything about it. If you're not going to join in playing GTA Kwark, Zero, DPB, etc... you can at least have the decency to drop your batons and run like cowards (hell if I know where) instead. I think Drone would go on a peaceful demonstration to demand change. Same for Acro and same for me. I don't get the point you're making here. You and people like you pushed the genocide angle hard enough that it actually had a measurable (negative for the Dems) impact on the election. You didn't take a look at what Trump was selling and went like: I better do whatever I can to ensure he didn't get power! You went: I better make sure the only realistic opposition to Trump tanks hard! The idea was to get Democrats to stop aiding and abetting genocide in exchange for support. Democrats and their supporters insisted they didn't need that support, they instead needed the support of the people that supported them for their aiding and abetting genocide. They miscalculated. That is also assuming you credit all the votes they lost between 2020 and 2024 to their supporting genocide and not to the gaslighting, letting the parliamentarian stop them from passing minimum wage, cop cities, cracking down on protesters, record deportations, using the military to police civilians, or like 1000 other Democrat failures/bad accomplishments I could list. Which I realize I may need to explicitly say is absurdly ridiculous. EDIT: Also the preceding post to yours of course I just don't get why you think tanking democratic support is a better outcome? I + Show Spoiler + mean, you have stated numerous times that you want a socialist revolution. You see on TV a guy that is saying, fairly outrightly, that he is going to remove as many regulations and protections as he possibly can and giving more power to corporations; i.e. the opposite of your stated goal. And you went: right, Imma withdraw my vote from the only realistic opposition and shout it loud and clear so other people in other places do the same thing. I just don't get it. I know you don't. Because I didn't tank their support. They did. The idea it was me or people like me is giving us way more power than the millions more Democrats or several more posters Kwark is insisting it's ridiculous to ascribe agency to in this. You "just don't get it" because your premise is absurd. Apparently it's more absurd to ascribe an individual responsibility for their direct choice to vote and which party they vote for than it is to ascribe random TL posters responsibility for the internal decision making of the DNC. Obviously people are responsible for their own personal gaslighting about Biden's capacity to campaign and stand for election in 2024 and the multitude of other examples in that vein. As well as supporting/voting for the politicians in the DNC and party generally for years/decades despite their heinous crimes against humanity and laying the foundations for fascism in the US. But we're still looking in the wrong places imo. The problems are systemic and even much "better people" would end up here and if not Trump it would have been the next election with Democrats only having laid MORE of the foundations of fascism and normalized them for Democrats and their loyalists/sycophants/supporters.
It will happen at some point is not a good excuse for allowing it to happen now. Even if we accept every part of your premise the choice, according to you, was whether or not to delay the fascist takeover. And you felt like it was fine to not delay it. Even under your own arguments you're still an enabler.
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if i want to enter the USA for vacation, do i need russian or american visa?
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On February 20 2025 02:28 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 02:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 02:11 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 02:08 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 02:03 EnDeR_ wrote:On February 20 2025 01:40 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 01:33 EnDeR_ wrote:On February 20 2025 00:25 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 00:07 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On February 19 2025 23:38 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
They’re control big tech. They control the apps people use for communication. They control popular media. They’ve stacked the courts and are simply ignoring court orders they don’t like. They’ve removed all oversight and are concentrating executive power which they’ve also removed all restrictions on. They’ve had everyone wiretapped for decades. They’ve had Fox News on constantly in every army barracks for decades.
We lost. The reason it was so important to vote Democrat in November was to avoid handing them the keys to the kingdom. But people were too morally pure to vote against the takeover and now those same people are going “what if we just tell the king no” as if the king gives a shit what they think. They wasted their shot. That's the funny part imo. Rs told everyone what they planned to do and dared the populace to stop them. They called the bluff and are now doing exactly what they said they would do. People being astonished is weird. Those that sat out, voted other, or voted trump to spite Ds hold so much blame it's sad. They can't even see that they are part of the problem and now want those that did their job to stop this, to help them correct their mistakes. All the while lambasting them and looking down their noses. Regardless of if the Ds did enough to "earn" your vote, this was preventable. @Ender, Acro, Drone, Uldridge, Slydie, Jock, etc... Do you see now how the lib/Dem/ilk went straight from "protests and strikes against genocide are too radical and hurt the status quo politicians we want to elect" to "it's too late for protests and strikes, everyone should give up" because they are too emotionally immature to admit that decades of their refusal to stop falling in line and remember the 1900's-1960's strategies of demanding more through direct action has led to these catastrophic consequences. Instead they want to reduce decades of their and their politicians (and the media's) failures to one night were millions of their own 2020 voters (not me or people like me) didn't show up to vote for them again (this time with extra genocide) in 2024 after Democrats/loyalists gaslit the hell out of them about Biden's mental/physical fitness to campaign/run the country starting well before the primary. It's childish, it's asinine, and it's how Trump is getting away with all this without Democrats or their supporters having any intention of doing anything about it. If you're not going to join in playing GTA Kwark, Zero, DPB, etc... you can at least have the decency to drop your batons and run like cowards (hell if I know where) instead. I think Drone would go on a peaceful demonstration to demand change. Same for Acro and same for me. I don't get the point you're making here. You and people like you pushed the genocide angle hard enough that it actually had a measurable (negative for the Dems) impact on the election. You didn't take a look at what Trump was selling and went like: I better do whatever I can to ensure he didn't get power! You went: I better make sure the only realistic opposition to Trump tanks hard! The idea was to get Democrats to stop aiding and abetting genocide in exchange for support. Democrats and their supporters insisted they didn't need that support, they instead needed the support of the people that supported them for their aiding and abetting genocide. They miscalculated. That is also assuming you credit all the votes they lost between 2020 and 2024 to their supporting genocide and not to the gaslighting, letting the parliamentarian stop them from passing minimum wage, cop cities, cracking down on protesters, record deportations, using the military to police civilians, or like 1000 other Democrat failures/bad accomplishments I could list. Which I realize I may need to explicitly say is absurdly ridiculous. EDIT: Also the preceding post to yours of course I just don't get why you think tanking democratic support is a better outcome? I + Show Spoiler + mean, you have stated numerous times that you want a socialist revolution. You see on TV a guy that is saying, fairly outrightly, that he is going to remove as many regulations and protections as he possibly can and giving more power to corporations; i.e. the opposite of your stated goal. And you went: right, Imma withdraw my vote from the only realistic opposition and shout it loud and clear so other people in other places do the same thing. I just don't get it. I know you don't. Because I didn't tank their support. They did. The idea it was me or people like me is giving us way more power than the millions more Democrats or several more posters Kwark is insisting it's ridiculous to ascribe agency to in this. You "just don't get it" because your premise is absurd. Apparently it's more absurd to ascribe an individual responsibility for their direct choice to vote and which party they vote for than it is to ascribe random TL posters responsibility for the internal decision making of the DNC. Obviously people are responsible for their own personal gaslighting about Biden's capacity to campaign and stand for election in 2024 and the multitude of other examples in that vein. As well as supporting/voting for the politicians in the DNC and party generally for years/decades despite their heinous crimes against humanity and laying the foundations for fascism in the US. But we're still looking in the wrong places imo. The problems are systemic and even much "better people" would end up here and if not Trump it would have been the next election with Democrats only having laid MORE of the foundations of fascism and normalized them for Democrats and their loyalists/sycophants/supporters. It will happen at some point is not a good excuse for allowing it to happen now. Even if we accept every part of your premise the choice, according to you, was whether or not to delay the fascist takeover. And you felt like it was fine to not delay it. Even under your own arguments you're still an enabler.
Still no.
I'm saying under the highly improbable scenario that Democrats listened to my pleas about following Bernie's talking points about healthcare at minimum (forget the socialist/Palestine/anything else you think could have helped) and it was enough to prevent Trump this cycle, Democrats were still going to just use that time to pass more legislation enabling the next fascist while making their supporters even more oblivious to how to prevent it.
I wasn't arguing for it to happen now, that was you guys in your hubris.
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United States44286 Posts
On February 20 2025 02:38 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 02:28 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 02:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 02:11 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 02:08 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 02:03 EnDeR_ wrote:On February 20 2025 01:40 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 01:33 EnDeR_ wrote:On February 20 2025 00:25 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 00:07 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
[quote]
That's the funny part imo. Rs told everyone what they planned to do and dared the populace to stop them. They called the bluff and are now doing exactly what they said they would do. People being astonished is weird. Those that sat out, voted other, or voted trump to spite Ds hold so much blame it's sad. They can't even see that they are part of the problem and now want those that did their job to stop this, to help them correct their mistakes. All the while lambasting them and looking down their noses. Regardless of if the Ds did enough to "earn" your vote, this was preventable. @Ender, Acro, Drone, Uldridge, Slydie, Jock, etc... Do you see now how the lib/Dem/ilk went straight from "protests and strikes against genocide are too radical and hurt the status quo politicians we want to elect" to "it's too late for protests and strikes, everyone should give up" because they are too emotionally immature to admit that decades of their refusal to stop falling in line and remember the 1900's-1960's strategies of demanding more through direct action has led to these catastrophic consequences. Instead they want to reduce decades of their and their politicians (and the media's) failures to one night were millions of their own 2020 voters (not me or people like me) didn't show up to vote for them again (this time with extra genocide) in 2024 after Democrats/loyalists gaslit the hell out of them about Biden's mental/physical fitness to campaign/run the country starting well before the primary. It's childish, it's asinine, and it's how Trump is getting away with all this without Democrats or their supporters having any intention of doing anything about it. If you're not going to join in playing GTA Kwark, Zero, DPB, etc... you can at least have the decency to drop your batons and run like cowards (hell if I know where) instead. I think Drone would go on a peaceful demonstration to demand change. Same for Acro and same for me. I don't get the point you're making here. You and people like you pushed the genocide angle hard enough that it actually had a measurable (negative for the Dems) impact on the election. You didn't take a look at what Trump was selling and went like: I better do whatever I can to ensure he didn't get power! You went: I better make sure the only realistic opposition to Trump tanks hard! The idea was to get Democrats to stop aiding and abetting genocide in exchange for support. Democrats and their supporters insisted they didn't need that support, they instead needed the support of the people that supported them for their aiding and abetting genocide. They miscalculated. That is also assuming you credit all the votes they lost between 2020 and 2024 to their supporting genocide and not to the gaslighting, letting the parliamentarian stop them from passing minimum wage, cop cities, cracking down on protesters, record deportations, using the military to police civilians, or like 1000 other Democrat failures/bad accomplishments I could list. Which I realize I may need to explicitly say is absurdly ridiculous. EDIT: Also the preceding post to yours of course I just don't get why you think tanking democratic support is a better outcome? I + Show Spoiler + mean, you have stated numerous times that you want a socialist revolution. You see on TV a guy that is saying, fairly outrightly, that he is going to remove as many regulations and protections as he possibly can and giving more power to corporations; i.e. the opposite of your stated goal. And you went: right, Imma withdraw my vote from the only realistic opposition and shout it loud and clear so other people in other places do the same thing. I just don't get it. I know you don't. Because I didn't tank their support. They did. The idea it was me or people like me is giving us way more power than the millions more Democrats or several more posters Kwark is insisting it's ridiculous to ascribe agency to in this. You "just don't get it" because your premise is absurd. Apparently it's more absurd to ascribe an individual responsibility for their direct choice to vote and which party they vote for than it is to ascribe random TL posters responsibility for the internal decision making of the DNC. Obviously people are responsible for their own personal gaslighting about Biden's capacity to campaign and stand for election in 2024 and the multitude of other examples in that vein. As well as supporting/voting for the politicians in the DNC and party generally for years/decades despite their heinous crimes against humanity and laying the foundations for fascism in the US. But we're still looking in the wrong places imo. The problems are systemic and even much "better people" would end up here and if not Trump it would have been the next election with Democrats only having laid MORE of the foundations of fascism and normalized them for Democrats and their loyalists/sycophants/supporters. It will happen at some point is not a good excuse for allowing it to happen now. Even if we accept every part of your premise the choice, according to you, was whether or not to delay the fascist takeover. And you felt like it was fine to not delay it. Even under your own arguments you're still an enabler. Still no. I'm saying under the highly improbable scenario that Democrats listened to my pleas about following Bernie's talking points about healthcare at minimum (forget the socialist/Palestine/anything else you think could have helped) and it was enough to prevent Trump this cycle, Democrats were still going to just use that time to pass more legislation enabling the next fascist while making their supporters even more oblivious to how to prevent it. I wasn't arguing for it to happen now, that was you guys in your hubris.
It will happen at some point is not a good excuse for allowing it to happen now. Even if we accept every part of your premise the choice, according to you, was whether or not to delay the fascist takeover. And you felt like it was fine to not delay it. Even under your own arguments you're still an enabler.
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On February 20 2025 02:39 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 02:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 02:28 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 02:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 02:11 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 02:08 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 02:03 EnDeR_ wrote:On February 20 2025 01:40 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 01:33 EnDeR_ wrote:On February 20 2025 00:25 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
@Ender, Acro, Drone, Uldridge, Slydie, Jock, etc... Do you see now how the lib/Dem/ilk went straight from "protests and strikes against genocide are too radical and hurt the status quo politicians we want to elect" to "it's too late for protests and strikes, everyone should give up" because they are too emotionally immature to admit that decades of their refusal to stop falling in line and remember the 1900's-1960's strategies of demanding more through direct action has led to these catastrophic consequences.
Instead they want to reduce decades of their and their politicians (and the media's) failures to one night were millions of their own 2020 voters (not me or people like me) didn't show up to vote for them again (this time with extra genocide) in 2024 after Democrats/loyalists gaslit the hell out of them about Biden's mental/physical fitness to campaign/run the country starting well before the primary.
It's childish, it's asinine, and it's how Trump is getting away with all this without Democrats or their supporters having any intention of doing anything about it.
If you're not going to join in playing GTA Kwark, Zero, DPB, etc... you can at least have the decency to drop your batons and run like cowards (hell if I know where) instead. I think Drone would go on a peaceful demonstration to demand change. Same for Acro and same for me. I don't get the point you're making here. You and people like you pushed the genocide angle hard enough that it actually had a measurable (negative for the Dems) impact on the election. You didn't take a look at what Trump was selling and went like: I better do whatever I can to ensure he didn't get power! You went: I better make sure the only realistic opposition to Trump tanks hard! The idea was to get Democrats to stop aiding and abetting genocide in exchange for support. Democrats and their supporters insisted they didn't need that support, they instead needed the support of the people that supported them for their aiding and abetting genocide. They miscalculated. That is also assuming you credit all the votes they lost between 2020 and 2024 to their supporting genocide and not to the gaslighting, letting the parliamentarian stop them from passing minimum wage, cop cities, cracking down on protesters, record deportations, using the military to police civilians, or like 1000 other Democrat failures/bad accomplishments I could list. Which I realize I may need to explicitly say is absurdly ridiculous. EDIT: Also the preceding post to yours of course I just don't get why you think tanking democratic support is a better outcome? I + Show Spoiler + mean, you have stated numerous times that you want a socialist revolution. You see on TV a guy that is saying, fairly outrightly, that he is going to remove as many regulations and protections as he possibly can and giving more power to corporations; i.e. the opposite of your stated goal. And you went: right, Imma withdraw my vote from the only realistic opposition and shout it loud and clear so other people in other places do the same thing. I just don't get it. I know you don't. Because I didn't tank their support. They did. The idea it was me or people like me is giving us way more power than the millions more Democrats or several more posters Kwark is insisting it's ridiculous to ascribe agency to in this. You "just don't get it" because your premise is absurd. Apparently it's more absurd to ascribe an individual responsibility for their direct choice to vote and which party they vote for than it is to ascribe random TL posters responsibility for the internal decision making of the DNC. Obviously people are responsible for their own personal gaslighting about Biden's capacity to campaign and stand for election in 2024 and the multitude of other examples in that vein. As well as supporting/voting for the politicians in the DNC and party generally for years/decades despite their heinous crimes against humanity and laying the foundations for fascism in the US. But we're still looking in the wrong places imo. The problems are systemic and even much "better people" would end up here and if not Trump it would have been the next election with Democrats only having laid MORE of the foundations of fascism and normalized them for Democrats and their loyalists/sycophants/supporters. It will happen at some point is not a good excuse for allowing it to happen now. Even if we accept every part of your premise the choice, according to you, was whether or not to delay the fascist takeover. And you felt like it was fine to not delay it. Even under your own arguments you're still an enabler. Still no. I'm saying under the highly improbable scenario that Democrats listened to my pleas about following Bernie's talking points about healthcare at minimum (forget the socialist/Palestine/anything else you think could have helped) and it was enough to prevent Trump this cycle, Democrats were still going to just use that time to pass more legislation enabling the next fascist while making their supporters even more oblivious to how to prevent it. I wasn't arguing for it to happen now, that was you guys in your hubris. It will happen at some point is not a good excuse for allowing it to happen now. + Show Spoiler +Even if we accept every part of your premise the choice, according to you, was whether or not to delay the fascist takeover. And you felt like it was fine to not delay it. Even under your own arguments you're still an enabler.
And yet you and Democrats made sure it happened now. Put down your baton and run already please.
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United States44286 Posts
On February 20 2025 02:41 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 02:39 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 02:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 02:28 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 02:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 02:11 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 02:08 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 02:03 EnDeR_ wrote:On February 20 2025 01:40 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 01:33 EnDeR_ wrote:
[quote]
I think Drone would go on a peaceful demonstration to demand change. Same for Acro and same for me. I don't get the point you're making here.
You and people like you pushed the genocide angle hard enough that it actually had a measurable (negative for the Dems) impact on the election. You didn't take a look at what Trump was selling and went like: I better do whatever I can to ensure he didn't get power! You went: I better make sure the only realistic opposition to Trump tanks hard! The idea was to get Democrats to stop aiding and abetting genocide in exchange for support. Democrats and their supporters insisted they didn't need that support, they instead needed the support of the people that supported them for their aiding and abetting genocide. They miscalculated. That is also assuming you credit all the votes they lost between 2020 and 2024 to their supporting genocide and not to the gaslighting, letting the parliamentarian stop them from passing minimum wage, cop cities, cracking down on protesters, record deportations, using the military to police civilians, or like 1000 other Democrat failures/bad accomplishments I could list. Which I realize I may need to explicitly say is absurdly ridiculous. EDIT: Also the preceding post to yours of course I just don't get why you think tanking democratic support is a better outcome? I + Show Spoiler + mean, you have stated numerous times that you want a socialist revolution. You see on TV a guy that is saying, fairly outrightly, that he is going to remove as many regulations and protections as he possibly can and giving more power to corporations; i.e. the opposite of your stated goal. And you went: right, Imma withdraw my vote from the only realistic opposition and shout it loud and clear so other people in other places do the same thing. I just don't get it. I know you don't. Because I didn't tank their support. They did. The idea it was me or people like me is giving us way more power than the millions more Democrats or several more posters Kwark is insisting it's ridiculous to ascribe agency to in this. You "just don't get it" because your premise is absurd. Apparently it's more absurd to ascribe an individual responsibility for their direct choice to vote and which party they vote for than it is to ascribe random TL posters responsibility for the internal decision making of the DNC. Obviously people are responsible for their own personal gaslighting about Biden's capacity to campaign and stand for election in 2024 and the multitude of other examples in that vein. As well as supporting/voting for the politicians in the DNC and party generally for years/decades despite their heinous crimes against humanity and laying the foundations for fascism in the US. But we're still looking in the wrong places imo. The problems are systemic and even much "better people" would end up here and if not Trump it would have been the next election with Democrats only having laid MORE of the foundations of fascism and normalized them for Democrats and their loyalists/sycophants/supporters. It will happen at some point is not a good excuse for allowing it to happen now. Even if we accept every part of your premise the choice, according to you, was whether or not to delay the fascist takeover. And you felt like it was fine to not delay it. Even under your own arguments you're still an enabler. Still no. I'm saying under the highly improbable scenario that Democrats listened to my pleas about following Bernie's talking points about healthcare at minimum (forget the socialist/Palestine/anything else you think could have helped) and it was enough to prevent Trump this cycle, Democrats were still going to just use that time to pass more legislation enabling the next fascist while making their supporters even more oblivious to how to prevent it. I wasn't arguing for it to happen now, that was you guys in your hubris. It will happen at some point is not a good excuse for allowing it to happen now. + Show Spoiler +Even if we accept every part of your premise the choice, according to you, was whether or not to delay the fascist takeover. And you felt like it was fine to not delay it. Even under your own arguments you're still an enabler. And yet you and Democrats made sure it happened now. Put down your baton and run already please.
"He got the power from people voting for him (and not voting against him) and so clearly it's the people voting against him who are to blame. Also batons. Everyone who disagrees with me is a baton."
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On February 20 2025 02:47 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 02:41 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 02:39 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 02:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 02:28 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 02:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 02:11 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 02:08 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 02:03 EnDeR_ wrote:On February 20 2025 01:40 GreenHorizons wrote:[quote] The idea was to get Democrats to stop aiding and abetting genocide in exchange for support. Democrats and their supporters insisted they didn't need that support, they instead needed the support of the people that supported them for their aiding and abetting genocide. They miscalculated. That is also assuming you credit all the votes they lost between 2020 and 2024 to their supporting genocide and not to the gaslighting, letting the parliamentarian stop them from passing minimum wage, cop cities, cracking down on protesters, record deportations, using the military to police civilians, or like 1000 other Democrat failures/bad accomplishments I could list. Which I realize I may need to explicitly say is absurdly ridiculous. EDIT: Also the preceding post to yours of course I just don't get why you think tanking democratic support is a better outcome? I + Show Spoiler + mean, you have stated numerous times that you want a socialist revolution. You see on TV a guy that is saying, fairly outrightly, that he is going to remove as many regulations and protections as he possibly can and giving more power to corporations; i.e. the opposite of your stated goal. And you went: right, Imma withdraw my vote from the only realistic opposition and shout it loud and clear so other people in other places do the same thing. I just don't get it. I know you don't. Because I didn't tank their support. They did. The idea it was me or people like me is giving us way more power than the millions more Democrats or several more posters Kwark is insisting it's ridiculous to ascribe agency to in this. You "just don't get it" because your premise is absurd. Apparently it's more absurd to ascribe an individual responsibility for their direct choice to vote and which party they vote for than it is to ascribe random TL posters responsibility for the internal decision making of the DNC. Obviously people are responsible for their own personal gaslighting about Biden's capacity to campaign and stand for election in 2024 and the multitude of other examples in that vein. As well as supporting/voting for the politicians in the DNC and party generally for years/decades despite their heinous crimes against humanity and laying the foundations for fascism in the US. But we're still looking in the wrong places imo. The problems are systemic and even much "better people" would end up here and if not Trump it would have been the next election with Democrats only having laid MORE of the foundations of fascism and normalized them for Democrats and their loyalists/sycophants/supporters. It will happen at some point is not a good excuse for allowing it to happen now. Even if we accept every part of your premise the choice, according to you, was whether or not to delay the fascist takeover. And you felt like it was fine to not delay it. Even under your own arguments you're still an enabler. Still no. I'm saying under the highly improbable scenario that Democrats listened to my pleas about following Bernie's talking points about healthcare at minimum (forget the socialist/Palestine/anything else you think could have helped) and it was enough to prevent Trump this cycle, Democrats were still going to just use that time to pass more legislation enabling the next fascist while making their supporters even more oblivious to how to prevent it. I wasn't arguing for it to happen now, that was you guys in your hubris. It will happen at some point is not a good excuse for allowing it to happen now. + Show Spoiler +Even if we accept every part of your premise the choice, according to you, was whether or not to delay the fascist takeover. And you felt like it was fine to not delay it. Even under your own arguments you're still an enabler. And yet you and Democrats made sure it happened now. Put down your baton and run already please. "He got the power from people voting for him (and not voting against him) and so clearly it's the people voting against him who are to blame. Also batons. Everyone who disagrees with me is a baton." No you've literally given up bro.
Your only options are to pick up a baton and join the fascists fighting against the people trying to organize with people against fascism or run and hide. So far you're picking your baton.
I'd rather you try socialism and organize while putting your intellect to use on counter surveillance practices for protests instead of pissing on the idea of resisting fascism altogether because they already have too much power because of an election we can't change the outcome of at this point regardless of who/what either of us blame for being here now.
But if you can't do that, I'd like you to do the bare minimum in this moment and just drop the baton and be quiet so you can hide/get away/let others work in what little peace we can find.
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United States44286 Posts
On February 20 2025 02:57 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 02:47 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 02:41 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 02:39 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 02:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 02:28 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 02:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 02:11 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 02:08 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 02:03 EnDeR_ wrote:[quote] I just don't get why you think tanking democratic support is a better outcome? I + Show Spoiler + mean, you have stated numerous times that you want a socialist revolution. You see on TV a guy that is saying, fairly outrightly, that he is going to remove as many regulations and protections as he possibly can and giving more power to corporations; i.e. the opposite of your stated goal. And you went: right, Imma withdraw my vote from the only realistic opposition and shout it loud and clear so other people in other places do the same thing. I just don't get it. I know you don't. Because I didn't tank their support. They did. The idea it was me or people like me is giving us way more power than the millions more Democrats or several more posters Kwark is insisting it's ridiculous to ascribe agency to in this. You "just don't get it" because your premise is absurd. Apparently it's more absurd to ascribe an individual responsibility for their direct choice to vote and which party they vote for than it is to ascribe random TL posters responsibility for the internal decision making of the DNC. Obviously people are responsible for their own personal gaslighting about Biden's capacity to campaign and stand for election in 2024 and the multitude of other examples in that vein. As well as supporting/voting for the politicians in the DNC and party generally for years/decades despite their heinous crimes against humanity and laying the foundations for fascism in the US. But we're still looking in the wrong places imo. The problems are systemic and even much "better people" would end up here and if not Trump it would have been the next election with Democrats only having laid MORE of the foundations of fascism and normalized them for Democrats and their loyalists/sycophants/supporters. It will happen at some point is not a good excuse for allowing it to happen now. Even if we accept every part of your premise the choice, according to you, was whether or not to delay the fascist takeover. And you felt like it was fine to not delay it. Even under your own arguments you're still an enabler. Still no. I'm saying under the highly improbable scenario that Democrats listened to my pleas about following Bernie's talking points about healthcare at minimum (forget the socialist/Palestine/anything else you think could have helped) and it was enough to prevent Trump this cycle, Democrats were still going to just use that time to pass more legislation enabling the next fascist while making their supporters even more oblivious to how to prevent it. I wasn't arguing for it to happen now, that was you guys in your hubris. It will happen at some point is not a good excuse for allowing it to happen now. + Show Spoiler +Even if we accept every part of your premise the choice, according to you, was whether or not to delay the fascist takeover. And you felt like it was fine to not delay it. Even under your own arguments you're still an enabler. And yet you and Democrats made sure it happened now. Put down your baton and run already please. "He got the power from people voting for him (and not voting against him) and so clearly it's the people voting against him who are to blame. Also batons. Everyone who disagrees with me is a baton." No you've literally given up bro. Your only options are to pick up a baton and join the fascists fighting against the people trying to organize with people against fascism or run and hide. So far you're picking your baton. I'd rather you try socialism and organize while putting your intellect to use on counter surveillance practices for protests instead of pissing on the idea of resisting fascism altogether because they already have too much power because of an election we can't change the outcome of at this point regardless of who/what either of us blame for being here now. But if you can't do that, I'd like you to do the bare minimum in this moment and just drop the baton and be quiet so you can hide/get away/let others work in what little peace we can find.
I literally don't have a baton. Also that post doesn't remotely say what you think it does.
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On February 20 2025 03:00 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 02:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 02:47 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 02:41 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 02:39 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 02:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 02:28 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 02:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 02:11 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 02:08 GreenHorizons wrote:[quote] I know you don't. Because I didn't tank their support. They did. The idea it was me or people like me is giving us way more power than the millions more Democrats or several more posters Kwark is insisting it's ridiculous to ascribe agency to in this. You "just don't get it" because your premise is absurd. Apparently it's more absurd to ascribe an individual responsibility for their direct choice to vote and which party they vote for than it is to ascribe random TL posters responsibility for the internal decision making of the DNC. Obviously people are responsible for their own personal gaslighting about Biden's capacity to campaign and stand for election in 2024 and the multitude of other examples in that vein. As well as supporting/voting for the politicians in the DNC and party generally for years/decades despite their heinous crimes against humanity and laying the foundations for fascism in the US. But we're still looking in the wrong places imo. The problems are systemic and even much "better people" would end up here and if not Trump it would have been the next election with Democrats only having laid MORE of the foundations of fascism and normalized them for Democrats and their loyalists/sycophants/supporters. It will happen at some point is not a good excuse for allowing it to happen now. Even if we accept every part of your premise the choice, according to you, was whether or not to delay the fascist takeover. And you felt like it was fine to not delay it. Even under your own arguments you're still an enabler. Still no. I'm saying under the highly improbable scenario that Democrats listened to my pleas about following Bernie's talking points about healthcare at minimum (forget the socialist/Palestine/anything else you think could have helped) and it was enough to prevent Trump this cycle, Democrats were still going to just use that time to pass more legislation enabling the next fascist while making their supporters even more oblivious to how to prevent it. I wasn't arguing for it to happen now, that was you guys in your hubris. It will happen at some point is not a good excuse for allowing it to happen now. + Show Spoiler +Even if we accept every part of your premise the choice, according to you, was whether or not to delay the fascist takeover. And you felt like it was fine to not delay it. Even under your own arguments you're still an enabler. And yet you and Democrats made sure it happened now. Put down your baton and run already please. "He got the power from people voting for him (and not voting against him) and so clearly it's the people voting against him who are to blame. Also batons. Everyone who disagrees with me is a baton." No you've literally given up bro. Your only options are to pick up a baton and join the fascists fighting against the people trying to organize with people against fascism or run and hide. So far you're picking your baton. I'd rather you try socialism and organize while putting your intellect to use on counter surveillance practices for protests instead of pissing on the idea of resisting fascism altogether because they already have too much power because of an election we can't change the outcome of at this point regardless of who/what either of us blame for being here now. But if you can't do that, I'd like you to do the bare minimum in this moment and just drop the baton and be quiet so you can hide/get away/let others work in what little peace we can find. I literally don't have a baton. Not a literal one yet. Your rhetoric is your bludgeon of choice for the moment. You do have a hammer that looms pretty ominously though lol.
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United States44286 Posts
On February 20 2025 03:03 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 03:00 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 02:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 02:47 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 02:41 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 02:39 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 02:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 02:28 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 02:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 02:11 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Apparently it's more absurd to ascribe an individual responsibility for their direct choice to vote and which party they vote for than it is to ascribe random TL posters responsibility for the internal decision making of the DNC. Obviously people are responsible for their own personal gaslighting about Biden's capacity to campaign and stand for election in 2024 and the multitude of other examples in that vein. As well as supporting/voting for the politicians in the DNC and party generally for years/decades despite their heinous crimes against humanity and laying the foundations for fascism in the US. But we're still looking in the wrong places imo. The problems are systemic and even much "better people" would end up here and if not Trump it would have been the next election with Democrats only having laid MORE of the foundations of fascism and normalized them for Democrats and their loyalists/sycophants/supporters. It will happen at some point is not a good excuse for allowing it to happen now. Even if we accept every part of your premise the choice, according to you, was whether or not to delay the fascist takeover. And you felt like it was fine to not delay it. Even under your own arguments you're still an enabler. Still no. I'm saying under the highly improbable scenario that Democrats listened to my pleas about following Bernie's talking points about healthcare at minimum (forget the socialist/Palestine/anything else you think could have helped) and it was enough to prevent Trump this cycle, Democrats were still going to just use that time to pass more legislation enabling the next fascist while making their supporters even more oblivious to how to prevent it. I wasn't arguing for it to happen now, that was you guys in your hubris. It will happen at some point is not a good excuse for allowing it to happen now. + Show Spoiler +Even if we accept every part of your premise the choice, according to you, was whether or not to delay the fascist takeover. And you felt like it was fine to not delay it. Even under your own arguments you're still an enabler. And yet you and Democrats made sure it happened now. Put down your baton and run already please. "He got the power from people voting for him (and not voting against him) and so clearly it's the people voting against him who are to blame. Also batons. Everyone who disagrees with me is a baton." No you've literally given up bro. Your only options are to pick up a baton and join the fascists fighting against the people trying to organize with people against fascism or run and hide. So far you're picking your baton. I'd rather you try socialism and organize while putting your intellect to use on counter surveillance practices for protests instead of pissing on the idea of resisting fascism altogether because they already have too much power because of an election we can't change the outcome of at this point regardless of who/what either of us blame for being here now. But if you can't do that, I'd like you to do the bare minimum in this moment and just drop the baton and be quiet so you can hide/get away/let others work in what little peace we can find. I literally don't have a baton. Not a literal one yet. Your rhetoric is your bludgeon of choice for the moment. You do have a hammer that looms pretty ominously though lol.
To be clear, am I to understand that you think that my moderation role on a starcraft broodwar forum has inevitably condemned me to become part of the future police state? That's what you're going with? I may not have a baton now but I'm a moderator on teamliquid and so it's obvious which side I'm on?
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On February 20 2025 03:05 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 03:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 03:00 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 02:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 02:47 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 02:41 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 02:39 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 02:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 02:28 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 02:20 GreenHorizons wrote:[quote] Obviously people are responsible for their own personal gaslighting about Biden's capacity to campaign and stand for election in 2024 and the multitude of other examples in that vein. As well as supporting/voting for the politicians in the DNC and party generally for years/decades despite their heinous crimes against humanity and laying the foundations for fascism in the US. But we're still looking in the wrong places imo. The problems are systemic and even much "better people" would end up here and if not Trump it would have been the next election with Democrats only having laid MORE of the foundations of fascism and normalized them for Democrats and their loyalists/sycophants/supporters. It will happen at some point is not a good excuse for allowing it to happen now. Even if we accept every part of your premise the choice, according to you, was whether or not to delay the fascist takeover. And you felt like it was fine to not delay it. Even under your own arguments you're still an enabler. Still no. I'm saying under the highly improbable scenario that Democrats listened to my pleas about following Bernie's talking points about healthcare at minimum (forget the socialist/Palestine/anything else you think could have helped) and it was enough to prevent Trump this cycle, Democrats were still going to just use that time to pass more legislation enabling the next fascist while making their supporters even more oblivious to how to prevent it. I wasn't arguing for it to happen now, that was you guys in your hubris. It will happen at some point is not a good excuse for allowing it to happen now. + Show Spoiler +Even if we accept every part of your premise the choice, according to you, was whether or not to delay the fascist takeover. And you felt like it was fine to not delay it. Even under your own arguments you're still an enabler. And yet you and Democrats made sure it happened now. Put down your baton and run already please. "He got the power from people voting for him (and not voting against him) and so clearly it's the people voting against him who are to blame. Also batons. Everyone who disagrees with me is a baton." No you've literally given up bro. Your only options are to pick up a baton and join the fascists fighting against the people trying to organize with people against fascism or run and hide. So far you're picking your baton. I'd rather you try socialism and organize while putting your intellect to use on counter surveillance practices for protests instead of pissing on the idea of resisting fascism altogether because they already have too much power because of an election we can't change the outcome of at this point regardless of who/what either of us blame for being here now. But if you can't do that, I'd like you to do the bare minimum in this moment and just drop the baton and be quiet so you can hide/get away/let others work in what little peace we can find. I literally don't have a baton. Not a literal one yet. Your rhetoric is your bludgeon of choice for the moment. You do have a hammer that looms pretty ominously though lol. To be clear, am I to understand that you think that my moderation role on a starcraft broodwar forum has inevitably condemned me to become part of the future police state? That's what you're going with? I may not have a baton now but I'm a moderator on teamliquid and so it's obvious which side I'm on?
Obviously not and this is probably where you're going to get so ridiculous I have to disengage.
I very clearly made the point that your rhetoric is your bludgeon of choice. Then I made an offhand joke about you having a hammer because it is another blunt instrument that we have all made jokes about hitting people with.
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United States44286 Posts
On February 20 2025 03:11 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 03:05 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 03:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 03:00 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 02:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 02:47 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 02:41 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 02:39 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 02:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 02:28 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
It will happen at some point is not a good excuse for allowing it to happen now. Even if we accept every part of your premise the choice, according to you, was whether or not to delay the fascist takeover. And you felt like it was fine to not delay it. Even under your own arguments you're still an enabler. Still no. I'm saying under the highly improbable scenario that Democrats listened to my pleas about following Bernie's talking points about healthcare at minimum (forget the socialist/Palestine/anything else you think could have helped) and it was enough to prevent Trump this cycle, Democrats were still going to just use that time to pass more legislation enabling the next fascist while making their supporters even more oblivious to how to prevent it. I wasn't arguing for it to happen now, that was you guys in your hubris. It will happen at some point is not a good excuse for allowing it to happen now. + Show Spoiler +Even if we accept every part of your premise the choice, according to you, was whether or not to delay the fascist takeover. And you felt like it was fine to not delay it. Even under your own arguments you're still an enabler. And yet you and Democrats made sure it happened now. Put down your baton and run already please. "He got the power from people voting for him (and not voting against him) and so clearly it's the people voting against him who are to blame. Also batons. Everyone who disagrees with me is a baton." No you've literally given up bro. Your only options are to pick up a baton and join the fascists fighting against the people trying to organize with people against fascism or run and hide. So far you're picking your baton. I'd rather you try socialism and organize while putting your intellect to use on counter surveillance practices for protests instead of pissing on the idea of resisting fascism altogether because they already have too much power because of an election we can't change the outcome of at this point regardless of who/what either of us blame for being here now. But if you can't do that, I'd like you to do the bare minimum in this moment and just drop the baton and be quiet so you can hide/get away/let others work in what little peace we can find. I literally don't have a baton. Not a literal one yet. Your rhetoric is your bludgeon of choice for the moment. You do have a hammer that looms pretty ominously though lol. To be clear, am I to understand that you think that my moderation role on a starcraft broodwar forum has inevitably condemned me to become part of the future police state? That's what you're going with? I may not have a baton now but I'm a moderator on teamliquid and so it's obvious which side I'm on? Obviously not and this is probably where you're going to get so ridiculous I have to disengage. I very clearly made the point that your rhetoric is your bludgeon of choice. Then I made an offhand joke about you having a hammer because it is another blunt instrument that we have all made jokes about hitting people with.
So why do you keep going on and on about fucking batons every post?
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On February 20 2025 03:13 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 03:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 03:05 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 03:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 03:00 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 02:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 02:47 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 02:41 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 02:39 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 02:38 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Still no.
I'm saying under the highly improbable scenario that Democrats listened to my pleas about following Bernie's talking points about healthcare at minimum (forget the socialist/Palestine/anything else you think could have helped) and it was enough to prevent Trump this cycle, Democrats were still going to just use that time to pass more legislation enabling the next fascist while making their supporters even more oblivious to how to prevent it.
I wasn't arguing for it to happen now, that was you guys in your hubris.
It will happen at some point is not a good excuse for allowing it to happen now. + Show Spoiler +Even if we accept every part of your premise the choice, according to you, was whether or not to delay the fascist takeover. And you felt like it was fine to not delay it. Even under your own arguments you're still an enabler. And yet you and Democrats made sure it happened now. Put down your baton and run already please. "He got the power from people voting for him (and not voting against him) and so clearly it's the people voting against him who are to blame. Also batons. Everyone who disagrees with me is a baton." No you've literally given up bro. Your only options are to pick up a baton and join the fascists fighting against the people trying to organize with people against fascism or run and hide. So far you're picking your baton. I'd rather you try socialism and organize while putting your intellect to use on counter surveillance practices for protests instead of pissing on the idea of resisting fascism altogether because they already have too much power because of an election we can't change the outcome of at this point regardless of who/what either of us blame for being here now. But if you can't do that, I'd like you to do the bare minimum in this moment and just drop the baton and be quiet so you can hide/get away/let others work in what little peace we can find. I literally don't have a baton. Not a literal one yet. Your rhetoric is your bludgeon of choice for the moment. You do have a hammer that looms pretty ominously though lol. To be clear, am I to understand that you think that my moderation role on a starcraft broodwar forum has inevitably condemned me to become part of the future police state? That's what you're going with? I may not have a baton now but I'm a moderator on teamliquid and so it's obvious which side I'm on? Obviously not and this is probably where you're going to get so ridiculous I have to disengage. I very clearly made the point that your rhetoric is your bludgeon of choice. Then I made an offhand joke about you having a hammer because it is another blunt instrument that we have all made jokes about hitting people with. So why do you keep going on and on about fucking batons every post? It's shorthand reference to your sentiment:
On April 25 2019 09:30 KwarK wrote:
That when the day comes it’ll be the people you’re trying to help hitting you with batons because they’re more afraid of becoming you than what you’re trying to save them from. I’m not unsympathetic, I’m disillusioned.
The day has come. You've picked up your rhetorical baton. I'd like you to put it down and leave/hide before you pick up the literal one and rationalize it with you/your family's well being.
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United States44286 Posts
On February 20 2025 03:22 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 03:13 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 03:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 03:05 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 03:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 03:00 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 02:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 02:47 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 02:41 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 02:39 KwarK wrote:[quote] It will happen at some point is not a good excuse for allowing it to happen now. + Show Spoiler +Even if we accept every part of your premise the choice, according to you, was whether or not to delay the fascist takeover. And you felt like it was fine to not delay it. Even under your own arguments you're still an enabler. And yet you and Democrats made sure it happened now. Put down your baton and run already please. "He got the power from people voting for him (and not voting against him) and so clearly it's the people voting against him who are to blame. Also batons. Everyone who disagrees with me is a baton." No you've literally given up bro. Your only options are to pick up a baton and join the fascists fighting against the people trying to organize with people against fascism or run and hide. So far you're picking your baton. I'd rather you try socialism and organize while putting your intellect to use on counter surveillance practices for protests instead of pissing on the idea of resisting fascism altogether because they already have too much power because of an election we can't change the outcome of at this point regardless of who/what either of us blame for being here now. But if you can't do that, I'd like you to do the bare minimum in this moment and just drop the baton and be quiet so you can hide/get away/let others work in what little peace we can find. I literally don't have a baton. Not a literal one yet. Your rhetoric is your bludgeon of choice for the moment. You do have a hammer that looms pretty ominously though lol. To be clear, am I to understand that you think that my moderation role on a starcraft broodwar forum has inevitably condemned me to become part of the future police state? That's what you're going with? I may not have a baton now but I'm a moderator on teamliquid and so it's obvious which side I'm on? Obviously not and this is probably where you're going to get so ridiculous I have to disengage. I very clearly made the point that your rhetoric is your bludgeon of choice. Then I made an offhand joke about you having a hammer because it is another blunt instrument that we have all made jokes about hitting people with. So why do you keep going on and on about fucking batons every post? It's shorthand reference to your sentiment: Show nested quote +On April 25 2019 09:30 KwarK wrote:
That when the day comes it’ll be the people you’re trying to help hitting you with batons because they’re more afraid of becoming you than what you’re trying to save them from. I’m not unsympathetic, I’m disillusioned. The day has come. You've picked up your rhetorical baton. I'd like you to put it down and leave/hide before you pick up the literal one and rationalize it with you/your family's well being.
Your reading comprehension is fucking awful. Not me you functional illiterate. The American Trump voting working class to whom you're just another DEI.
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On February 20 2025 03:28 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 03:22 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 03:13 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 03:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 03:05 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 03:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 03:00 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 02:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 02:47 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 02:41 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
And yet you and Democrats made sure it happened now. Put down your baton and run already please. "He got the power from people voting for him (and not voting against him) and so clearly it's the people voting against him who are to blame. Also batons. Everyone who disagrees with me is a baton." No you've literally given up bro. Your only options are to pick up a baton and join the fascists fighting against the people trying to organize with people against fascism or run and hide. So far you're picking your baton. I'd rather you try socialism and organize while putting your intellect to use on counter surveillance practices for protests instead of pissing on the idea of resisting fascism altogether because they already have too much power because of an election we can't change the outcome of at this point regardless of who/what either of us blame for being here now. But if you can't do that, I'd like you to do the bare minimum in this moment and just drop the baton and be quiet so you can hide/get away/let others work in what little peace we can find. I literally don't have a baton. Not a literal one yet. Your rhetoric is your bludgeon of choice for the moment. You do have a hammer that looms pretty ominously though lol. To be clear, am I to understand that you think that my moderation role on a starcraft broodwar forum has inevitably condemned me to become part of the future police state? That's what you're going with? I may not have a baton now but I'm a moderator on teamliquid and so it's obvious which side I'm on? Obviously not and this is probably where you're going to get so ridiculous I have to disengage. I very clearly made the point that your rhetoric is your bludgeon of choice. Then I made an offhand joke about you having a hammer because it is another blunt instrument that we have all made jokes about hitting people with. So why do you keep going on and on about fucking batons every post? It's shorthand reference to your sentiment: On April 25 2019 09:30 KwarK wrote:
That when the day comes it’ll be the people you’re trying to help hitting you with batons because they’re more afraid of becoming you than what you’re trying to save them from. I’m not unsympathetic, I’m disillusioned. The day has come. You've picked up your rhetorical baton. I'd like you to put it down and leave/hide before you pick up the literal one and rationalize it with you/your family's well being. Your reading comprehension is fucking awful. Not me you functional illiterate. The American Trump voting working class to whom you're just another DEI.
It's quite obviously applicable to you too.
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United States44286 Posts
On February 20 2025 03:30 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 03:28 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 03:22 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 03:13 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 03:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 03:05 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 03:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 03:00 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 02:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 02:47 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
"He got the power from people voting for him (and not voting against him) and so clearly it's the people voting against him who are to blame. Also batons. Everyone who disagrees with me is a baton." No you've literally given up bro. Your only options are to pick up a baton and join the fascists fighting against the people trying to organize with people against fascism or run and hide. So far you're picking your baton. I'd rather you try socialism and organize while putting your intellect to use on counter surveillance practices for protests instead of pissing on the idea of resisting fascism altogether because they already have too much power because of an election we can't change the outcome of at this point regardless of who/what either of us blame for being here now. But if you can't do that, I'd like you to do the bare minimum in this moment and just drop the baton and be quiet so you can hide/get away/let others work in what little peace we can find. I literally don't have a baton. Not a literal one yet. Your rhetoric is your bludgeon of choice for the moment. You do have a hammer that looms pretty ominously though lol. To be clear, am I to understand that you think that my moderation role on a starcraft broodwar forum has inevitably condemned me to become part of the future police state? That's what you're going with? I may not have a baton now but I'm a moderator on teamliquid and so it's obvious which side I'm on? Obviously not and this is probably where you're going to get so ridiculous I have to disengage. I very clearly made the point that your rhetoric is your bludgeon of choice. Then I made an offhand joke about you having a hammer because it is another blunt instrument that we have all made jokes about hitting people with. So why do you keep going on and on about fucking batons every post? It's shorthand reference to your sentiment: On April 25 2019 09:30 KwarK wrote:
That when the day comes it’ll be the people you’re trying to help hitting you with batons because they’re more afraid of becoming you than what you’re trying to save them from. I’m not unsympathetic, I’m disillusioned. The day has come. You've picked up your rhetorical baton. I'd like you to put it down and leave/hide before you pick up the literal one and rationalize it with you/your family's well being. Your reading comprehension is fucking awful. Not me you functional illiterate. The American Trump voting working class to whom you're just another DEI. It's quite obviously applicable to you too.
I've literally told you that it's not.
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EPT
