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On February 20 2025 00:33 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 00:29 Jockmcplop wrote:On February 20 2025 00:23 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On February 20 2025 00:13 Jockmcplop wrote:
I should tell Manchester United about this strategy of blaming the goalposts for your failure to score. They need it this season. I'm sure they'll be more effective than the Ds who lost to trump. Let me know how that works out for them! E: But I'd like to know why you think those that didn't help to keep this from happening is absolved of blame. That's probably where we are not seeing eye to eye. Because it is not a voters job to vote for who ZerOCoolSC2 thinks they should vote for. It is their job to vote for who they want to vote for on election night. The job of the political parties during their campaigns and their time in power is to MAKE the voters want to vote for them by enacting and promising policies that collect voters. Clearly the failure here was the Democrats. Its absolutely 100% clear. Because the Democrats wouldn’t sell out the trans community and Palestine as hard as the voting public demanded.
We can theorize as to why, there's alot of reasons, but essentially you're along the right lines.
The Democrats didn't find the right balance of policy to keep the identity they wanted while keeping voters onside.
It is their responsibility and their job to do that.
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United States41932 Posts
On February 20 2025 00:36 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 00:33 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 00:29 Jockmcplop wrote:On February 20 2025 00:23 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On February 20 2025 00:13 Jockmcplop wrote:
I should tell Manchester United about this strategy of blaming the goalposts for your failure to score. They need it this season. I'm sure they'll be more effective than the Ds who lost to trump. Let me know how that works out for them! E: But I'd like to know why you think those that didn't help to keep this from happening is absolved of blame. That's probably where we are not seeing eye to eye. Because it is not a voters job to vote for who ZerOCoolSC2 thinks they should vote for. It is their job to vote for who they want to vote for on election night. The job of the political parties during their campaigns and their time in power is to MAKE the voters want to vote for them by enacting and promising policies that collect voters. Clearly the failure here was the Democrats. Its absolutely 100% clear. Because the Democrats wouldn’t sell out the trans community and Palestine as hard as the voting public demanded. We can theorize as to why, there's alot of reasons, but essentially you're along the right lines. The Democrats didn't find the right balance of policy to keep the identity they wanted while keeping voters onside. It is their responsibility and their job to do that.
I feel like if the party made a mistake of not giving in to populist demands to persecute minority citizens then the voting public are the ones I’m more upset by. We need to ask ourselves why the voting public felt that increased persecution of the trans community was something they were willing to elect a felon to achieve.
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Maybe start by incentizing 30% of the population to vote instead of pandering to vile people. What a cope, KwarK. You are now at stage 2.
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Thank you for answering KwarK. I don't have it in me to keep the back and forth going when the evidence is right there. The childish name-calling is tiring and the insistence that Ds didn't do enough when they bent over backwards to cater to damn near every demographic is just plain wrong.
People acting like just because they didn't get 10000% concession on every minor quibble, the Ds failed them spectacularly. The Ds did an admirable job pivoting and fell short. They hold a lot of blame as well. But to say no one else does? That's not how it works.
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On February 20 2025 00:42 Uldridge wrote:
Maybe start by incentizing 30% of the population to vote instead of pandering to vile people. What a cope, KwarK. You are now at stage 2.
At one point I thought the notion that libs/Dems/ilk would prefer fascism to even just European social democracy was absurd. I don't really see how I can dispute it at this point.
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On February 20 2025 00:45 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Thank you for answering KwarK. I don't have it in me to keep the back and forth going when the evidence is right there. The childish name-calling is tiring and the insistence that Ds didn't do enough when they bent over backwards to cater to damn near every demographic is just plain wrong.
People acting like just because they didn't get 10000% concession on every minor quibble, the Ds failed them spectacularly. The Ds did an admirable job pivoting and fell short. They hold a lot of blame as well. But to say no one else does? That's not how it works.
The Dems failed everyone spectacularly.
Again their job was to win the election.
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United States41932 Posts
On February 20 2025 00:48 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 00:42 Uldridge wrote:
Maybe start by incentizing 30% of the population to vote instead of pandering to vile people. What a cope, KwarK. You are now at stage 2. At one point I thought the notion that libs/Dems/ilk would prefer fascism to even just European social democracy was absurd. I don't really see how I can dispute it at this point.
You prefer fascism. You wouldn’t do the bare minimum to prevent it. You can’t wait to pick up the baton against trans people and immigrants and as an immigrant I don’t really appreciate that. You’re one of the Americans responsible for this.
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On February 20 2025 00:48 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 00:45 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Thank you for answering KwarK. I don't have it in me to keep the back and forth going when the evidence is right there. The childish name-calling is tiring and the insistence that Ds didn't do enough when they bent over backwards to cater to damn near every demographic is just plain wrong.
People acting like just because they didn't get 10000% concession on every minor quibble, the Ds failed them spectacularly. The Ds did an admirable job pivoting and fell short. They hold a lot of blame as well. But to say no one else does? That's not how it works. The Dems failed everyone spectacularly. Again their job was to win the election.
The voting public failed everyone spectacularly.
Again, their job was to prevent trump from winning.
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United States41932 Posts
On February 20 2025 00:42 Uldridge wrote:
Maybe start by incentizing 30% of the population to vote instead of pandering to vile people. What a cope, KwarK. You are now at stage 2.
The incentives were there. They didn’t care about them. “Vote D to prevent persecution of your fellow citizens is a great incentive as long as you care about your fellow citizens”. The problem wasn’t the offer, it was the audience.
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On February 20 2025 00:52 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 00:48 Jockmcplop wrote:On February 20 2025 00:45 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Thank you for answering KwarK. I don't have it in me to keep the back and forth going when the evidence is right there. The childish name-calling is tiring and the insistence that Ds didn't do enough when they bent over backwards to cater to damn near every demographic is just plain wrong.
People acting like just because they didn't get 10000% concession on every minor quibble, the Ds failed them spectacularly. The Ds did an admirable job pivoting and fell short. They hold a lot of blame as well. But to say no one else does? That's not how it works. The Dems failed everyone spectacularly. Again their job was to win the election. The voting public failed everyone spectacularly. Again, their job was to prevent trump from winning.
No it isn't.
Their job is to vote for who they want to vote for.
You're getting this very, very wrong.
If i go shopping and there is two stores next to each other selling the same thing, and I choose the one that I want to go in to, you are the owner of the other store yelling at me for not going in yours.
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On February 19 2025 22:56 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2025 22:52 Acrofales wrote:On February 19 2025 22:48 KwarK wrote:On February 19 2025 22:41 Acrofales wrote:On February 19 2025 22:16 KwarK wrote:
Trump, and his chosen cult of yes men, are enthusiastic about the prospect of using force against American citizens. They genuinely believe that their culture war is a real war and that there is a real enemy that is trying to destroy America by teaching history and measuring co2 levels etc. The idea that they’re going to back down from a challenge because some people go on strike is madness, they want people to go on strike, they want people to protest, they’re eager for the fight, they think they’ll win it by using force. Protest and facial recognition AI will put you on the list. Organize using social media and the security services will log every participant.
People still believe in a rule of law that no longer exists, and that’s why they’ll lose. They believe that as they’re detained indefinitely they’ll cry out “actually you’re not allowed to do this” and a bald eagle will break them out of jail. They believe that a general will refuse to follow orders, but also Trump won’t be able to dismiss that general and replace him with one who will. They don’t understand that they lost. That the Trump White House has already started simply ignoring court orders it doesn’t like.
This strike nonsense is nowhere near radical enough. If you plan to challenge the US government with direct action then you can’t also count on the power of the state to protect you from itself. That may be true, it may also be false. The first step in demanding change is to actually demand it. If you say it's going to fail, so better not try, you have already failed. If Trump's answer to a general strike and mass protests is to send in the national guard then obeying that order is up to the national guard. If the army obeys the dictator, there is generally very little you can do. But the US having a Tiananmen Square moment would definitely change peoples' minds about what society they live in. If, instead, you get a Tahrir Square moment then you live in a very different society. Or maybe it doesn't escalate that far in the first place. In any case, if you don't protest the abuse of power, why should anyone stop abusing it? There are other forms of direct action. I think we're all open to suggestions here, so spitball with us! What do you think should be done to halt Trump's autocratic takeover? There was an entire historical period in which vast amounts of money was spent on both the theory and the practical testing and application of tools to deal with fascist states. Everybody, including you, knows what works against fascists once they wield the powers of a state.
I know of exactly two ways in history a fascist state stopped being fascist.
Massively losing a war to an outside force who commits to an occupation to remove the fascism and waiting for the fascist dictator to die of old age and hoping the state turns democratic afterwards.
None of those two really work well if the US is that fascist state.
I guess Trump could die of old age pretty soon.
I guess if you include communist dictatorships you could also wait for economic collapse. But even that doesn't always work, see NK.
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On February 20 2025 00:54 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 00:52 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On February 20 2025 00:48 Jockmcplop wrote:On February 20 2025 00:45 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Thank you for answering KwarK. I don't have it in me to keep the back and forth going when the evidence is right there. The childish name-calling is tiring and the insistence that Ds didn't do enough when they bent over backwards to cater to damn near every demographic is just plain wrong.
People acting like just because they didn't get 10000% concession on every minor quibble, the Ds failed them spectacularly. The Ds did an admirable job pivoting and fell short. They hold a lot of blame as well. But to say no one else does? That's not how it works. The Dems failed everyone spectacularly. Again their job was to win the election. The voting public failed everyone spectacularly. Again, their job was to prevent trump from winning. No it isn't. Their job is to vote for who they want to vote for. You're getting this very, very wrong. If i go shopping and there is two stores next to each other selling the same thing, and I choose the one that I want to go in to, you are the owner of the other store yelling at me for not going in yours.
And they voted for trump. How is this difficult?
You picking the store has nothing to do with what is inside or what is being advertised. You picked it. If the store you picked gives you food poisoning (even after hearing that people have gotten spoiled food from there before), you can't say the other store didn't do enough to get your business. You made the choice to enter the other store.
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On February 20 2025 00:52 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 00:42 Uldridge wrote:
Maybe start by incentizing 30% of the population to vote instead of pandering to vile people. What a cope, KwarK. You are now at stage 2. The incentives were there. They didn’t care about them. “Vote D to prevent persecution of your fellow citizens is a great incentive as long as you care about your fellow citizens”. The problem wasn’t the offer, it was the audience.
The incentive of doing nothing just to prevent the new counter culture fascism isn't good enough. People want change. People are itching for it like crack. You see it around the world. People are gearing up for war, or at the very least talking about it. Why is that? Why the fuck does Belgium of all places need to be prepared? Is Russia going to get this deep into EU territory? Why the fuck does the UK need to go to war?
If all you can offer is stale bread but you guarantee no food poisoning, while the other is laying out an all you can eat buffet with your occasional salmonella, but the food is great and looks terrific, you've done a bad job advertising for yourself.
@Zerocool: the Dems wanted to see action, to see the management board make drastic internal changes and come with a new approach to politcs. They didn't. They just shoved Hillary Clinton V2 because, hey, maybe this time it might work?
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I don't understand this discussion.
"Democrats ran a bad campaign" and "It's awful people voted for a fascist" can be, and likely are, both true at the same time. I'm not sure why we're spending multiple pages discussing which of the two is the bigger factor in the current political climate.
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On February 20 2025 00:52 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 00:48 Jockmcplop wrote:On February 20 2025 00:45 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Thank you for answering KwarK. I don't have it in me to keep the back and forth going when the evidence is right there. The childish name-calling is tiring and the insistence that Ds didn't do enough when they bent over backwards to cater to damn near every demographic is just plain wrong.
People acting like just because they didn't get 10000% concession on every minor quibble, the Ds failed them spectacularly. The Ds did an admirable job pivoting and fell short. They hold a lot of blame as well. But to say no one else does? That's not how it works. The Dems failed everyone spectacularly. Again their job was to win the election. The voting public failed everyone spectacularly. Again, their job was to prevent trump from winning.
My job is to make video games, the Democrats job is to entice people to vote for them, we are each paid to do these things, only one of us does it even half decently though.
Democrats make fuck loads of money, they are responsible when they lose, it is their job to win, when they do not win it is their fault that they do a bad job because fundamentally and literally it is their job, I am not paid to make them win, I am not even offered a day off to help them win, it is their job, the thing they're paid money to do, to make people want to vote for them so they can win elections. Voting literally costs me my time! I could have stayed in on Tuesday morning but I made the modicum of effort to vote, which is a modicum of effort more than Democrats make to win elections.
Doing this thing youre doing where you carry water for Democrats is a huge part of why they never learn, why they lose, and why they will continue losing even the fairest of elections.
People need to stop enabling Democrats dumbest most dipshit inactions by acting like its everyone elses fault that they cant win elections or wield power.
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On February 20 2025 01:02 Uldridge wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 00:52 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 00:42 Uldridge wrote:
Maybe start by incentizing 30% of the population to vote instead of pandering to vile people. What a cope, KwarK. You are now at stage 2. The incentives were there. They didn’t care about them. “Vote D to prevent persecution of your fellow citizens is a great incentive as long as you care about your fellow citizens”. The problem wasn’t the offer, it was the audience. The incentive of doing nothing just to prevent the new counter culture fascism isn't good enough. People want change. People are itching for it like crack. You see it around the world. People are gearing up for war, or at the very least talking about it. Why is that? Why the fuck does Belgium of all places need to be prepared? Is Russia going to get this deep into EU territory? Why the fuck does the UK need to go to war? If all you can offer is stale bread but you guarantee no food poisoning, while the other is laying out an all you can eat buffet with your occasional salmonella, but the food is great and looks terrific, you've done a bad job advertising for yourself. @Zerocool: the Dems wanted to see action, to see the management board make drastic internal changes and come with a new approach to politcs. They didn't. They just shoved Hillary Clinton V2 because, hey, maybe this time it might work?
I can agree with that much. I would have liked to see better as well. But with how it all transpired, even during the time it was happening, we ended up with Harris. At that point, what could you really do? The goal was to stop trump and the Rs because we knew what was coming. EVERYONE failed in that aspect. That is literally all I've been saying.
On February 20 2025 01:04 Mikau313 wrote:
I don't understand this discussion.
"Democrats ran a bad campaign" and "It's awful people voted for a fascist" can be, and likely are, both true at the same time. I'm not sure why we're spending multiple pages discussing which of the two is the bigger factor in the current political climate.
Because some of us are capable of self reflection and understand what happened. While some don't want to take that moment for themselves.
I agree it's a dumb circular argument but I'm tired of being vilified for doing the bare minimum by voting against having the current political climate.
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On February 20 2025 00:54 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 00:52 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On February 20 2025 00:48 Jockmcplop wrote:On February 20 2025 00:45 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Thank you for answering KwarK. I don't have it in me to keep the back and forth going when the evidence is right there. The childish name-calling is tiring and the insistence that Ds didn't do enough when they bent over backwards to cater to damn near every demographic is just plain wrong.
People acting like just because they didn't get 10000% concession on every minor quibble, the Ds failed them spectacularly. The Ds did an admirable job pivoting and fell short. They hold a lot of blame as well. But to say no one else does? That's not how it works. The Dems failed everyone spectacularly. Again their job was to win the election. The voting public failed everyone spectacularly. Again, their job was to prevent trump from winning. No it isn't. Their job is to vote for who they want to vote for. You're getting this very, very wrong. If i go shopping and there is two stores next to each other selling the same thing, and I choose the one that I want to go in to, you are the owner of the other store yelling at me for not going in yours.
Both the Democratic leadership and the voters are to blame. Neither group is blameless. Democratic leadership should have been more persuasive, and voters shouldn't have been so stupid and misinformed. (You wrote that voters voted for who they wanted, but many didn't actually do that. To follow your shopping analogy, it would be like the Democratic store selling an item for $10, the Republican store selling the same item for $20, and the voter saying "I want the cheaper option" but then shopping at the Republican store. The Democrats' sign should have been bigger, but the voters should have also taken the time to read the current signs.)
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Could you elaborate on how the voters were stupid and misinformed?
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On February 20 2025 01:17 Uldridge wrote:
Could you elaborate on how the voters were stupid and misinformed?
I want to be fair here, voters are stupid and misinformed, but its the job of society and the people who run that society to make their populace not stupid and misinformed, this suddenly libertarian mindset that Democrat supporters adopt in these moments is wild to me.
Like yeah, Americans are dumb and dont know shit about their government, thats just a fact, but I have a hard time blaming individuals for the failings of their leadership.
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United States41932 Posts
Jock there is a very basic fundamental obligation we owe each other in a society and it’s not to all gang up on and persecute innocent minorities. You wholly excuse people who do that, insisting that they’re allowed to vote for whoever they want to vote for and they can’t be blamed for that. It’s utter nonsense. You can absolutely be blamed for how you vote. Votes aren’t sacrosanct, they’re not above the basic moral obligation we have to each other. It’s not “treat everyone with basic respect for human dignity except in voting stations where you’re allowed to vote for camps”. Honestly I don’t even know how you got the impression that they’re above judgement. Even in your example of two shops it doesn’t work. If one shop sold washing machines and the other shop sold slaves trained to wash clothes then I’m absolutely blaming someone who goes into the slave shop for their choice. Whereas your argument appears to be that the obligation of both shops is to win the business, the customer has no broader moral duty to society, and the shop not selling people made a mistake.
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EPT
