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On February 06 2025 01:54 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2025 01:40 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On February 06 2025 01:24 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 06 2025 00:55 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On February 05 2025 23:36 GreenHorizons wrote:I just can't get over the contrast between Biden and Trump as far as doing things. Trump's illegally flying migrants to GITMO while Biden couldn't circumvent the parliamentarian (who served at Democrats will and Republicans have overruled before) to raise minimum wage. We've seen Trump talking with random reporters (not scheduled/recorded interviews) more in his first weeks than we saw Biden and Harris their entire campaign. I am completely baffled by what you're trying to prove or expose here. trump is a narcissistic assbooger. He craves the attention. His dumbfuckery is more important than him being in front of cameras. Biden and Harris had shit to do and was working on getting it done. Literally everything he's done that's fuckin the world is being drafter by someone else and he's just signing it. He's a fuckin puppet and you're...praising him? Well the first part is about how Trump's admin is doing shit like illegally flying immigrants to GITMO while Biden couldn't overcome the Parliamentarian (that served at Democrats will). It's a dramatic contrast in the will to do something for better or worse. + Show Spoiler +Unless you reframe it as Biden sticking to his guns on personally opposing policy like raising minimum wage and using the parliamentarian as a plausibly deniable way to stick to his guns on opposing it. The second part is how unbothered Trump is to engage with what should be a very hostile press asking extremely tough questions. In contrast with Biden/Harris' refusal to take questions from press they just finished giving speeches to over the course of an entire year+ when they were ostensibly trying to convince the country to support them. I'm not really trying to "prove/expose" anything. I genuinely still can't get over the contrast. But didn't the minimum wage in almost every state go up? Federal minimum wage should have been increased, I'll agree, to match inflation or come close. I think the issue is that Biden and Harris were trying to do everything with the assumption that no matter what they do, it'll be challenged, so make it as legal as possible (student loans etc). trump and co are just doing it and everything is being challenged in court. Only issue is that the Rs are sitting silent (and a large portion of Ds as well) about the hacksawing of the federal agencies. Wouldn't be surprised if Musk paid a large sum to a lot of Rs to be quiet and let him do his thing. The will to do something illegal and the will to do something legal is different. Very different. trump is a crook. We know he's a crook. He's doing crook things. Holding Ds to the same standard or comparison isn't a fair assessment, imo. More than the actual practical implications of the minimum wage increase, it's that Democrats folded to effectively no one, while Trump is daring his own Supreme Court to try and stop him. I don't know how familiar you are with the history behind The New Deal but Biden/Harris needed that energy (without conceding to the racists that made them exclude people that weren't white from the benefits it provided), not the "make it as legal as possible" as you call it energy. Libs/Dems/posters here had gaslit me hard enough to think maybe Biden/Harris weren't really as aloof as they seemed Seeing Trump interacting with reporters (as absurd as he is most of the time) basically every day since he took office, signing more shit than he's even willing to read, and treating the constitution like toilet paper, shows me just how disengaged/disconnected from the wider public (outside their loyalists) they really were. EDIT: Harris is still ostensibly the leading Democrat candidate for 2028 and she's nowhere to be found. That's not good.
Especially compared to Trump, Biden and Harris looked like they were trying to do as little as possible and change as little as possible. The party of the status quo.
No one wants that, on either side of the political spectrum. It might have looked appealing in 2020 when the country was in the grips of a botched pandemic response, but once things got back to normal, no one wanted to see just "more of the same as always" and that was what we were getting from Joe Biden. Every promise he made in 2020 that was even remotely radical like Cancelling Student Debt never came up as anything more than passing idea with no enthusiasm behind it.
Say what you want about Trump's policies and there's plenty to say but he is very enthusiastic with how he is trying to implement them.
Maybe it's all optics, and all political theater from the Republicans, but it's effective in at least making them look like they are trying to get some shit done. Having Biden never speak to reporters and look like he was desperately trying to get the fuck off camera every time he was, and then having no real domestic agenda wins to speak of, no wonder there was never any public enthusiasm for him.
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On February 06 2025 03:33 KwarK wrote:
I’m saying that if they want to win the popular support of Americans then there is a minimum threshold of evil that they have to promise to do. Below that Americans simply won’t turn out to vote for them. If you’re not promising vengeance on your enemies, police brutality, war crimes etc. then it’s just not clear whether you even love America. Anyone who loves America would cheer for that stuff.
I don’t like that this is the case but I can’t see how it’s not the case. American voters turned out in record numbers for Trump. He tapped into America’s soul in a way that other politicians haven’t. It’s a pity Bill Clinton can’t run again because as a perjurer, criminal, and likely rapist he’d be a dominant force today. I know how you feel. I've spent a lot of time trying to convince you and others that the policy preferences (and general ethics) of the US population (especially Democrats) were much worse than you all recognized.
That said, I still disagree. Just to give an example of a similarly silly but distinct strategy that might have worked: Harris literally challenging Donald Trump to a boxing match/fist fight and harassing him daily like Ali did Liston and Frasier. Another more sensible one would have been making a big deal about healthcare, especially by way of attacking healthcare insurance CEOs pay and policies of denying people care. It wasn't a blowout, Democrats just needed a little more support from voters they had already gotten before + Show Spoiler +(she lost millions of votes Biden got despite there being more potential voters in 2024 than 2020)
To Mohdoo's point, they could probably win more if they promised to do stuff and "failed" (that was Biden 2020 strat), than trying to convince people that incrementally "less evil" things in the face of exponential decay (Harris 2024) is worth voting for.
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Northern Ireland24945 Posts
On February 06 2025 05:39 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2025 02:33 Sadist wrote:
I think the left side of the aisle has had bad slogans for a while when you take into account the average american audience.
Black Lives Matter is not too bad but you have to know who you are speaking too. Black Lives Matter can be interpreted multiple ways , generally by bad faith actors, but it leaves you open to criticism. As mentioned before Black Lives Matter Too addresses nearly all of the bad faith criticism and shows that there is a presumption already that all lives matter, just that black folks deserve equal rights and treatment as human beings.
A terrible slogan was Defund the Police. This is not because the actual ideas behind it were bad but because the average american isnt going to read up on them and "Defund" had already been branded before with Defund Planned Parenthood years prior. Defund Planned Parenthood to the average person meant get rid of it. The distinction between eliminating federal funding or eliminating it all together was irrelevant. People who wanted to end federal funding and those who wanted it gone entirely could align under one tent. It could mean whatever you want it to mean
Defund the Police was very easily assumed to mean "get rid of the police" by the average person which sounds like a dumb idea. Of course we need police. Sadly the Defund the Police people didnt want to get rid of them, just reallocate some resources to different departments for different types of calls who were better equipped to handle them but the average american doesnt know this. A better slogan would have been "Reform the Police" because it can mean whatever anyone wants it to mean and then if you win your election you can still do what you want.
Its why Make America Great Again has been such a powerful slogan for people on the right and unengaged voters. It can mean whatever they want it to mean. Of course to people in the know the actual origin of America First or the policy implications behind it are horrifying but to the average american they wont know that. Who doesnt want America to be great? Whatever someone believes makes America great they can attribute to the slogan since it doesnt say anything. Why do you think there are people with shocked Pikachu faces when their friends and family get deported? "I thought you were talking about the other illegals! You know the bad ones!"
We gotta get better at Slogans on the left. The problem is not that defund the police gets conflated with "get rid of the police." The problem is they don't want to defund the police either. Only 19% of black people want less police presence in their area. You're unfairly blaming the slogan instead of the idea itself. Immediately jumping to "people just don't understand what defund the police means" instead of considering the possibility that they want equal or more police presence shows an out of touchness that the left is going to have to overcome if they want to win elections again. I think this video sums up the conversation of the last couple pages: + Show Spoiler +
Of course the left will be out of touch, if they’re continually misrepresented all the better.
A central pillar of ‘Defund the Police’ was, always was, and still is that there are areas where the police aren’t an optimal or even desirable port of call, and to move funding to those who are.
Police, especially of the American variety shouldn’t be the main point of contact for dealing with homeless folks, those with addiction issues and those with severe mental health problems, to pick 3 areas. But they often are. Indeed, their inability to deal with some of those individuals is not the fault of the police necessarily either. A hammer is not faulty because it’s not especially good as a screwdriver.
The only pillar? No. But the ‘fuck it let’s not police the streets or prosecute petty criminals’ line of thinking did exist sure, but was always a minority line of thinking.
Which you should know if you spent even a modicum of the energy you spend defending people on the right against various charges (sometimes reasonably tbf), on listening to people on the left and giving them a reasonable shake.
The slogan also didn’t help IMO.
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Northern Ireland24945 Posts
On February 06 2025 06:12 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2025 03:33 KwarK wrote:
I’m saying that if they want to win the popular support of Americans then there is a minimum threshold of evil that they have to promise to do. Below that Americans simply won’t turn out to vote for them. If you’re not promising vengeance on your enemies, police brutality, war crimes etc. then it’s just not clear whether you even love America. Anyone who loves America would cheer for that stuff.
I don’t like that this is the case but I can’t see how it’s not the case. American voters turned out in record numbers for Trump. He tapped into America’s soul in a way that other politicians haven’t. It’s a pity Bill Clinton can’t run again because as a perjurer, criminal, and likely rapist he’d be a dominant force today. I know how you feel. I've spent a lot of time trying to convince you and others that the policy preferences (and general ethics) of the US population (especially Democrats) were much worse than you all recognized. That said, I still disagree. Just to give an example of a similarly silly but distinct strategy that might have worked: Harris literally challenging Donald Trump to a boxing match/fist fight and harassing him daily like Ali did Liston and Frasier. Another more sensible one would have been making a big deal about healthcare, especially by way of attacking healthcare insurance CEOs pay and policies of denying people care. It wasn't a blowout, Democrats just needed a little more support from voters they had already gotten before + Show Spoiler +(she lost millions of votes Biden got despite there being more potential voters in 2024 than 2020) with a more left-wing run from Biden. To Mohdoo's point, they could probably win more if they promised to do stuff and "failed" (that was Biden 2020 strat), than trying to convince people that incrementally "less evil" things in the face of exponential decay (Harris 2024) is worth voting for.
I still think they also got a pretty shit incumbency hand, but they sure as hell didn’t play it well.
Even the odd minor thing they maybe did get right they didn’t capitalise on.
‘Hey here’s Tim Walz, hey people seem to like the cut of his jib. After the initial intro let’s keep in the background huh?’
Some things yeah, they’re hard, complicated or both.
The Dems seeming inability to do the simple and the obvious though?
If they ran a great campaign, but hey look, America is just too Fascist now, I mean that’s obviously a poor state of affairs, but I can somewhat get that.
It’s a very, very well-funded and resourced party. You could probably lock myself and you in a cabin for a bit, feed us and give us a generous coffee/beer (or whatever your poison is) and we’re probably pissing out a better campaign. At least on a conceptual/messaging level, I’m not sure I could be arsed with logistics and whatnot. Or a whole bunch of folks on here could.
This isn’t me ego or arrogance coming in, I don’t think I should even be able to plausibly believe I could plot a better campaign than one of the world’s most well-funded political organisations.
We’re almost getting into reverse Hanlon’s Razor territory. Where the levels of incompetence are just so incomprehensible and frequent that perhaps malice is the apt explanation.
‘Hey you remember the Cheneys right? I know you on the left despise em, especially Dick, and folks on the right consider them turncoat traitors, especially Liz, but here they are, ready to win over the unicorn voters!’
Ya almost can’t make it up.
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Out of curiosity, has anyone been pleasantly surprised by resistance leadership out of anyone on the left so far? I expect the uniqueness of this situation is going to inspire people to rise up and speak up. Probably people who are totally unknown right now. But I'd be happy to see existing democrats meet the moment. It may be too soon for any such figures to emerge, but curious if anyone sticks out so far.
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On February 06 2025 08:00 Mohdoo wrote:
Out of curiosity, has anyone been pleasantly surprised by resistance leadership out of anyone on the left so far? I expect the uniqueness of this situation is going to inspire people to rise up and speak up. Probably people who are totally unknown right now. But I'd be happy to see existing democrats meet the moment. It may be too soon for any such figures to emerge, but curious if anyone sticks out so far.
No clue what's going on in California, but I expect Newsome to start making some noise so he can get a headstart on the campaign for 2028. Same with Harris once she stops feeling bad she got beat by trump. Hilary did the same thing, but eventually came back out. The lesser knowns? I don't know or haven't heard much, local or national, of anyone really making any noise.
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On February 06 2025 05:43 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2025 05:39 BlackJack wrote:On February 06 2025 02:33 Sadist wrote:
I think the left side of the aisle has had bad slogans for a while when you take into account the average american audience.
Black Lives Matter is not too bad but you have to know who you are speaking too. Black Lives Matter can be interpreted multiple ways , generally by bad faith actors, but it leaves you open to criticism. As mentioned before Black Lives Matter Too addresses nearly all of the bad faith criticism and shows that there is a presumption already that all lives matter, just that black folks deserve equal rights and treatment as human beings.
A terrible slogan was Defund the Police. This is not because the actual ideas behind it were bad but because the average american isnt going to read up on them and "Defund" had already been branded before with Defund Planned Parenthood years prior. Defund Planned Parenthood to the average person meant get rid of it. The distinction between eliminating federal funding or eliminating it all together was irrelevant. People who wanted to end federal funding and those who wanted it gone entirely could align under one tent. It could mean whatever you want it to mean
Defund the Police was very easily assumed to mean "get rid of the police" by the average person which sounds like a dumb idea. Of course we need police. Sadly the Defund the Police people didnt want to get rid of them, just reallocate some resources to different departments for different types of calls who were better equipped to handle them but the average american doesnt know this. A better slogan would have been "Reform the Police" because it can mean whatever anyone wants it to mean and then if you win your election you can still do what you want.
Its why Make America Great Again has been such a powerful slogan for people on the right and unengaged voters. It can mean whatever they want it to mean. Of course to people in the know the actual origin of America First or the policy implications behind it are horrifying but to the average american they wont know that. Who doesnt want America to be great? Whatever someone believes makes America great they can attribute to the slogan since it doesnt say anything. Why do you think there are people with shocked Pikachu faces when their friends and family get deported? "I thought you were talking about the other illegals! You know the bad ones!"
We gotta get better at Slogans on the left. The problem is not that defund the police gets conflated with "get rid of the police." The problem is they don't want to defund the police either. Only 19% of black people want less police presence in their area. You're unfairly blaming the slogan instead of the idea itself. Defund the police means reallocate resources not give them less money just to give them less money. Wanting less police presence is not the same as reallocating resources. I think you are making a false assumption here. This is why the slogan is bad. "Reform the police" doesnt have this problem.
This is just not true. I could maybe buy the movement's argument that a bigger social safety net would reduce the need for police, but unless Wikipedia and the Guardian are wrong about the movement it is absolutely about reducing the number of police and replacing them with other social programs intended to reduce crime.
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On February 05 2025 23:36 GreenHorizons wrote:I just can't get over the contrast between Biden and Trump as far as doing things. Trump's illegally flying migrants to GITMO while Biden couldn't circumvent the parliamentarian (who served at Democrats will and Republicans have overruled before) to raise minimum wage. We've seen Trump talking with random reporters (not scheduled/recorded interviews) more in his first weeks than we saw Biden and Harris their entire campaign.
Are you saying Biden should've been more like Trump and broken more laws in order to establish a more totalitarian rule? Or are you criticizing Trump for breaking the law?
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On February 06 2025 08:16 Turbovolver wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2025 05:43 Sadist wrote:On February 06 2025 05:39 BlackJack wrote:On February 06 2025 02:33 Sadist wrote:
I think the left side of the aisle has had bad slogans for a while when you take into account the average american audience.
Black Lives Matter is not too bad but you have to know who you are speaking too. Black Lives Matter can be interpreted multiple ways , generally by bad faith actors, but it leaves you open to criticism. As mentioned before Black Lives Matter Too addresses nearly all of the bad faith criticism and shows that there is a presumption already that all lives matter, just that black folks deserve equal rights and treatment as human beings.
A terrible slogan was Defund the Police. This is not because the actual ideas behind it were bad but because the average american isnt going to read up on them and "Defund" had already been branded before with Defund Planned Parenthood years prior. Defund Planned Parenthood to the average person meant get rid of it. The distinction between eliminating federal funding or eliminating it all together was irrelevant. People who wanted to end federal funding and those who wanted it gone entirely could align under one tent. It could mean whatever you want it to mean
Defund the Police was very easily assumed to mean "get rid of the police" by the average person which sounds like a dumb idea. Of course we need police. Sadly the Defund the Police people didnt want to get rid of them, just reallocate some resources to different departments for different types of calls who were better equipped to handle them but the average american doesnt know this. A better slogan would have been "Reform the Police" because it can mean whatever anyone wants it to mean and then if you win your election you can still do what you want.
Its why Make America Great Again has been such a powerful slogan for people on the right and unengaged voters. It can mean whatever they want it to mean. Of course to people in the know the actual origin of America First or the policy implications behind it are horrifying but to the average american they wont know that. Who doesnt want America to be great? Whatever someone believes makes America great they can attribute to the slogan since it doesnt say anything. Why do you think there are people with shocked Pikachu faces when their friends and family get deported? "I thought you were talking about the other illegals! You know the bad ones!"
We gotta get better at Slogans on the left. The problem is not that defund the police gets conflated with "get rid of the police." The problem is they don't want to defund the police either. Only 19% of black people want less police presence in their area. You're unfairly blaming the slogan instead of the idea itself. Defund the police means reallocate resources not give them less money just to give them less money. Wanting less police presence is not the same as reallocating resources. I think you are making a false assumption here. This is why the slogan is bad. "Reform the police" doesnt have this problem. This is just not true. I could maybe buy the movement's argument that a bigger social safety net would reduce the need for police, but unless Wikipedia and the Guardian are wrong about the movement it is absolutely about reducing the number of police and replacing them with other social programs intended to reduce crime.
You are correct but thats more of a reform. The intent is to have other people responding to mental health calls etc. This is why we get into the weeds on this topic. Its a losing slogan.
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On February 06 2025 08:57 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2025 08:16 Turbovolver wrote:On February 06 2025 05:43 Sadist wrote:On February 06 2025 05:39 BlackJack wrote:On February 06 2025 02:33 Sadist wrote:
I think the left side of the aisle has had bad slogans for a while when you take into account the average american audience.
Black Lives Matter is not too bad but you have to know who you are speaking too. Black Lives Matter can be interpreted multiple ways , generally by bad faith actors, but it leaves you open to criticism. As mentioned before Black Lives Matter Too addresses nearly all of the bad faith criticism and shows that there is a presumption already that all lives matter, just that black folks deserve equal rights and treatment as human beings.
A terrible slogan was Defund the Police. This is not because the actual ideas behind it were bad but because the average american isnt going to read up on them and "Defund" had already been branded before with Defund Planned Parenthood years prior. Defund Planned Parenthood to the average person meant get rid of it. The distinction between eliminating federal funding or eliminating it all together was irrelevant. People who wanted to end federal funding and those who wanted it gone entirely could align under one tent. It could mean whatever you want it to mean
Defund the Police was very easily assumed to mean "get rid of the police" by the average person which sounds like a dumb idea. Of course we need police. Sadly the Defund the Police people didnt want to get rid of them, just reallocate some resources to different departments for different types of calls who were better equipped to handle them but the average american doesnt know this. A better slogan would have been "Reform the Police" because it can mean whatever anyone wants it to mean and then if you win your election you can still do what you want.
Its why Make America Great Again has been such a powerful slogan for people on the right and unengaged voters. It can mean whatever they want it to mean. Of course to people in the know the actual origin of America First or the policy implications behind it are horrifying but to the average american they wont know that. Who doesnt want America to be great? Whatever someone believes makes America great they can attribute to the slogan since it doesnt say anything. Why do you think there are people with shocked Pikachu faces when their friends and family get deported? "I thought you were talking about the other illegals! You know the bad ones!"
We gotta get better at Slogans on the left. The problem is not that defund the police gets conflated with "get rid of the police." The problem is they don't want to defund the police either. Only 19% of black people want less police presence in their area. You're unfairly blaming the slogan instead of the idea itself. Defund the police means reallocate resources not give them less money just to give them less money. Wanting less police presence is not the same as reallocating resources. I think you are making a false assumption here. This is why the slogan is bad. "Reform the police" doesnt have this problem. This is just not true. I could maybe buy the movement's argument that a bigger social safety net would reduce the need for police, but unless Wikipedia and the Guardian are wrong about the movement it is absolutely about reducing the number of police and replacing them with other social programs intended to reduce crime. You are correct but thats more of a reform. The intent is to have other people responding to mental health calls etc. This is why we get into the weeds on this topic. Its a losing slogan.
Right, you’re just saying to the people that want equal or more police presence, “once you see what we do with that money instead you won’t even miss the police!”
They don’t know what they want. They don’t know what’s good for them. The college educated white liberals that don’t even live in high crime areas know what they really want.
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United States42490 Posts
Eh, it's less white college educated liberals and more the DOJ censuring police forces for not following their own use of force manuals.
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On February 06 2025 06:32 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2025 05:39 BlackJack wrote:On February 06 2025 02:33 Sadist wrote:
I think the left side of the aisle has had bad slogans for a while when you take into account the average american audience.
Black Lives Matter is not too bad but you have to know who you are speaking too. Black Lives Matter can be interpreted multiple ways , generally by bad faith actors, but it leaves you open to criticism. As mentioned before Black Lives Matter Too addresses nearly all of the bad faith criticism and shows that there is a presumption already that all lives matter, just that black folks deserve equal rights and treatment as human beings.
A terrible slogan was Defund the Police. This is not because the actual ideas behind it were bad but because the average american isnt going to read up on them and "Defund" had already been branded before with Defund Planned Parenthood years prior. Defund Planned Parenthood to the average person meant get rid of it. The distinction between eliminating federal funding or eliminating it all together was irrelevant. People who wanted to end federal funding and those who wanted it gone entirely could align under one tent. It could mean whatever you want it to mean
Defund the Police was very easily assumed to mean "get rid of the police" by the average person which sounds like a dumb idea. Of course we need police. Sadly the Defund the Police people didnt want to get rid of them, just reallocate some resources to different departments for different types of calls who were better equipped to handle them but the average american doesnt know this. A better slogan would have been "Reform the Police" because it can mean whatever anyone wants it to mean and then if you win your election you can still do what you want.
Its why Make America Great Again has been such a powerful slogan for people on the right and unengaged voters. It can mean whatever they want it to mean. Of course to people in the know the actual origin of America First or the policy implications behind it are horrifying but to the average american they wont know that. Who doesnt want America to be great? Whatever someone believes makes America great they can attribute to the slogan since it doesnt say anything. Why do you think there are people with shocked Pikachu faces when their friends and family get deported? "I thought you were talking about the other illegals! You know the bad ones!"
We gotta get better at Slogans on the left. The problem is not that defund the police gets conflated with "get rid of the police." The problem is they don't want to defund the police either. Only 19% of black people want less police presence in their area. You're unfairly blaming the slogan instead of the idea itself. Immediately jumping to "people just don't understand what defund the police means" instead of considering the possibility that they want equal or more police presence shows an out of touchness that the left is going to have to overcome if they want to win elections again. I think this video sums up the conversation of the last couple pages: + Show Spoiler +https://youtu.be/N1e_C5Szfss?si=yHGFzPSwapEr7LqZ Of course the left will be out of touch, if they’re continually misrepresented all the better. A central pillar of ‘Defund the Police’ was, always was, and still is that there are areas where the police aren’t an optimal or even desirable port of call, and to move funding to those who are. Police, especially of the American variety shouldn’t be the main point of contact for dealing with homeless folks, those with addiction issues and those with severe mental health problems, to pick 3 areas. But they often are. Indeed, their inability to deal with some of those individuals is not the fault of the police necessarily either. A hammer is not faulty because it’s not especially good as a screwdriver. The only pillar? No. But the ‘fuck it let’s not police the streets or prosecute petty criminals’ line of thinking did exist sure, but was always a minority line of thinking. Which you should know if you spent even a modicum of the energy you spend defending people on the right against various charges (sometimes reasonably tbf), on listening to people on the left and giving them a reasonable shake. The slogan also didn’t help IMO.
Somewhat fair. We all do our share here of framing “the other side” by their most fringe elements. BLM and Defund were about many things but you can’t deny the significant anti-police element that just want cops off the streets. There’s also plenty of prosecutors that ran on, implemented, and were eventually ousted for their soft-on-crime restorative justice policies to keep people out of jail.
If I went to a BLM protest and counted the “All Cops Are Bastards” signs and you went to a MAGA rally and counted the swastikas I think I would outnumber you 100 to 1. But the perception here seems to be MAGA is Nazism and BLM is just some impotent apolitical movement with no agenda outside of getting people to acknowledge black people shouldn’t be murdered. Like I said, it doesn’t pass the sniff test for most Americans and people should consider the possibility that their perceptions are wrong instead of everyone else is just a racist or misogynist.
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Northern Ireland24945 Posts
On February 06 2025 08:57 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2025 08:16 Turbovolver wrote:On February 06 2025 05:43 Sadist wrote:On February 06 2025 05:39 BlackJack wrote:On February 06 2025 02:33 Sadist wrote:
I think the left side of the aisle has had bad slogans for a while when you take into account the average american audience.
Black Lives Matter is not too bad but you have to know who you are speaking too. Black Lives Matter can be interpreted multiple ways , generally by bad faith actors, but it leaves you open to criticism. As mentioned before Black Lives Matter Too addresses nearly all of the bad faith criticism and shows that there is a presumption already that all lives matter, just that black folks deserve equal rights and treatment as human beings.
A terrible slogan was Defund the Police. This is not because the actual ideas behind it were bad but because the average american isnt going to read up on them and "Defund" had already been branded before with Defund Planned Parenthood years prior. Defund Planned Parenthood to the average person meant get rid of it. The distinction between eliminating federal funding or eliminating it all together was irrelevant. People who wanted to end federal funding and those who wanted it gone entirely could align under one tent. It could mean whatever you want it to mean
Defund the Police was very easily assumed to mean "get rid of the police" by the average person which sounds like a dumb idea. Of course we need police. Sadly the Defund the Police people didnt want to get rid of them, just reallocate some resources to different departments for different types of calls who were better equipped to handle them but the average american doesnt know this. A better slogan would have been "Reform the Police" because it can mean whatever anyone wants it to mean and then if you win your election you can still do what you want.
Its why Make America Great Again has been such a powerful slogan for people on the right and unengaged voters. It can mean whatever they want it to mean. Of course to people in the know the actual origin of America First or the policy implications behind it are horrifying but to the average american they wont know that. Who doesnt want America to be great? Whatever someone believes makes America great they can attribute to the slogan since it doesnt say anything. Why do you think there are people with shocked Pikachu faces when their friends and family get deported? "I thought you were talking about the other illegals! You know the bad ones!"
We gotta get better at Slogans on the left. The problem is not that defund the police gets conflated with "get rid of the police." The problem is they don't want to defund the police either. Only 19% of black people want less police presence in their area. You're unfairly blaming the slogan instead of the idea itself. Defund the police means reallocate resources not give them less money just to give them less money. Wanting less police presence is not the same as reallocating resources. I think you are making a false assumption here. This is why the slogan is bad. "Reform the police" doesnt have this problem. This is just not true. I could maybe buy the movement's argument that a bigger social safety net would reduce the need for police, but unless Wikipedia and the Guardian are wrong about the movement it is absolutely about reducing the number of police and replacing them with other social programs intended to reduce crime. You are correct but thats more of a reform. The intent is to have other people responding to mental health calls etc. This is why we get into the weeds on this topic. Its a losing slogan.
Regardless of how you package it, it’s a nation with a very punitive approach to criminal justice. Both in metrics and in general cultural attitudes.
Even with perfect messaging you also have to punch through that
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On February 06 2025 08:42 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2025 23:36 GreenHorizons wrote:I just can't get over the contrast between Biden and Trump as far as doing things. Trump's illegally flying migrants to GITMO while Biden couldn't circumvent the parliamentarian (who served at Democrats will and Republicans have overruled before) to raise minimum wage. We've seen Trump talking with random reporters (not scheduled/recorded interviews) more in his first weeks than we saw Biden and Harris their entire campaign. Are you saying Biden should've been more like Trump and broken more laws in order to establish a more totalitarian rule? Or are you criticizing Trump for breaking the law?
Overruling a parliamentarian isn't breaking the law, it's not even breaking precedent. It's maybe "bending the rules" at worst.
If you're asking "Should Biden have bent the rules to help millions of people and prevent Trump from shredding the constitution and harming who knows how many people?" I'd ask "What kind of idiot says no to that?"
It's an even stupider question when you realize Biden was violating the ever living fuck out of international law and US law to arm aid and abet an ethnic cleansing/genocide campaign.
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On February 06 2025 09:10 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2025 08:57 Sadist wrote:On February 06 2025 08:16 Turbovolver wrote:On February 06 2025 05:43 Sadist wrote:On February 06 2025 05:39 BlackJack wrote:On February 06 2025 02:33 Sadist wrote:
I think the left side of the aisle has had bad slogans for a while when you take into account the average american audience.
Black Lives Matter is not too bad but you have to know who you are speaking too. Black Lives Matter can be interpreted multiple ways , generally by bad faith actors, but it leaves you open to criticism. As mentioned before Black Lives Matter Too addresses nearly all of the bad faith criticism and shows that there is a presumption already that all lives matter, just that black folks deserve equal rights and treatment as human beings.
A terrible slogan was Defund the Police. This is not because the actual ideas behind it were bad but because the average american isnt going to read up on them and "Defund" had already been branded before with Defund Planned Parenthood years prior. Defund Planned Parenthood to the average person meant get rid of it. The distinction between eliminating federal funding or eliminating it all together was irrelevant. People who wanted to end federal funding and those who wanted it gone entirely could align under one tent. It could mean whatever you want it to mean
Defund the Police was very easily assumed to mean "get rid of the police" by the average person which sounds like a dumb idea. Of course we need police. Sadly the Defund the Police people didnt want to get rid of them, just reallocate some resources to different departments for different types of calls who were better equipped to handle them but the average american doesnt know this. A better slogan would have been "Reform the Police" because it can mean whatever anyone wants it to mean and then if you win your election you can still do what you want.
Its why Make America Great Again has been such a powerful slogan for people on the right and unengaged voters. It can mean whatever they want it to mean. Of course to people in the know the actual origin of America First or the policy implications behind it are horrifying but to the average american they wont know that. Who doesnt want America to be great? Whatever someone believes makes America great they can attribute to the slogan since it doesnt say anything. Why do you think there are people with shocked Pikachu faces when their friends and family get deported? "I thought you were talking about the other illegals! You know the bad ones!"
We gotta get better at Slogans on the left. The problem is not that defund the police gets conflated with "get rid of the police." The problem is they don't want to defund the police either. Only 19% of black people want less police presence in their area. You're unfairly blaming the slogan instead of the idea itself. Defund the police means reallocate resources not give them less money just to give them less money. Wanting less police presence is not the same as reallocating resources. I think you are making a false assumption here. This is why the slogan is bad. "Reform the police" doesnt have this problem. This is just not true. I could maybe buy the movement's argument that a bigger social safety net would reduce the need for police, but unless Wikipedia and the Guardian are wrong about the movement it is absolutely about reducing the number of police and replacing them with other social programs intended to reduce crime. You are correct but thats more of a reform. The intent is to have other people responding to mental health calls etc. This is why we get into the weeds on this topic. Its a losing slogan. Right, you’re just saying to the people that want equal or more police presence, “once you see what we do with that money instead you won’t even miss the police!” They don’t know what they want. They don’t know what’s good for them. The college educated white liberals that don’t even live in high crime areas know what they really want.
Ok BJ thats obviously what is happening here. Its people like me trying to be a white savior.
Do you think it makes sense for an overworked police force to be responsible for all of societies ills? Theres no better way or better people to handle some of these mental health situations? Everything is operating perfectly as intended? The responses couldnt possibly be influeced by the way the question was asked?
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If Biden thought the things he was saying about Trump were true, he massively failed as a president by not doing whatever is needed to prevent it.
We know intelligence agencies were aware of many calls between Musk and Putin. I am sure it goes much further than that based on what we have been told. Its very easy to view this entire Trump ordeal so far as treason. Musk having any amount of access to the treasury is an unbelievable tragedy.
Just think about all the things Biden said about Trump. Now consider all of those things are being shown to be true. He is doing all that and more. How in the world was it the responsible thing to do to just allow it?
Scared of "triggering a civil war"? As if "prevent civil war by just letting our existing government lose the civil war" is some better option? Once we were days away from Trump being sworn in, and all the evidence pointed to this happening, preventing Trump from being president appears to have been the by far "lesser evil".
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United States42490 Posts
On February 06 2025 09:47 Mohdoo wrote:
If Biden thought the things he was saying about Trump were true, he massively failed as a president by not doing whatever is needed to prevent it.
We know intelligence agencies were aware of many calls between Musk and Putin. I am sure it goes much further than that based on what we have been told. Its very easy to view this entire Trump ordeal so far as treason. Musk having any amount of access to the treasury is an unbelievable tragedy.
Just think about all the things Biden said about Trump. Now consider all of those things are being shown to be true. He is doing all that and more. How in the world was it the responsible thing to do to just allow it?
Scared of "triggering a civil war"? As if "prevent civil war by just letting our existing government lose the civil war" is some better option? Once we were days away from Trump being sworn in, and all the evidence pointed to this happening, preventing Trump from being president appears to have been the by far "lesser evil".
At that point how exactly was he to stop it? His term and powers were expiring and SCOTUS was stacked. He could stage a coup but could he ensure military support for it? And what then? Martial law?
Biden dropped the ball when he didn't send Trump to Gitmo on Jan 21 2021. By a month ago it was way too late.
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On February 06 2025 09:59 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2025 09:47 Mohdoo wrote:
If Biden thought the things he was saying about Trump were true, he massively failed as a president by not doing whatever is needed to prevent it.
We know intelligence agencies were aware of many calls between Musk and Putin. I am sure it goes much further than that based on what we have been told. Its very easy to view this entire Trump ordeal so far as treason. Musk having any amount of access to the treasury is an unbelievable tragedy.
Just think about all the things Biden said about Trump. Now consider all of those things are being shown to be true. He is doing all that and more. How in the world was it the responsible thing to do to just allow it?
Scared of "triggering a civil war"? As if "prevent civil war by just letting our existing government lose the civil war" is some better option? Once we were days away from Trump being sworn in, and all the evidence pointed to this happening, preventing Trump from being president appears to have been the by far "lesser evil". At that point how exactly was he to stop it? His term and powers were expiring and SCOTUS was stacked. He could stage a coup but could he ensure military support for it? And what then? Martial law? Biden dropped the ball when he didn't send Trump to Gitmo on Jan 21 2021. By a month ago it was way too late.
I think the president of the united states can say "I need this person to be killed as soon as possible using whatever means necessary" and it will end up happening. We have no idea what he knew about who. I am just saying when we look at how things went with the treasury, this appears wildly grim and I imagine any president would seek to avoid that no matter the cost.
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On February 06 2025 09:59 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2025 09:47 Mohdoo wrote:
If Biden thought the things he was saying about Trump were true, he massively failed as a president by not doing whatever is needed to prevent it.
We know intelligence agencies were aware of many calls between Musk and Putin. I am sure it goes much further than that based on what we have been told. Its very easy to view this entire Trump ordeal so far as treason. Musk having any amount of access to the treasury is an unbelievable tragedy.
Just think about all the things Biden said about Trump. Now consider all of those things are being shown to be true. He is doing all that and more. How in the world was it the responsible thing to do to just allow it?
Scared of "triggering a civil war"? As if "prevent civil war by just letting our existing government lose the civil war" is some better option? Once we were days away from Trump being sworn in, and all the evidence pointed to this happening, preventing Trump from being president appears to have been the by far "lesser evil". At that point how exactly was he to stop it? His term and powers were expiring and SCOTUS was stacked. He could stage a coup but could he ensure military support for it? And what then? Martial law? Biden dropped the ball when he didn't send Trump to Gitmo on Jan 21 2021. By a month ago it was way too late.
I mean he's an old man. He should have taken his chances with the immunity the Supreme Court gave him to prevent having to hand that power to Trump. He had access to the internals that said Harris was probably going to lose. He needed to step up multiple times and failed. He was no Churchill, so to speak.
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United States24660 Posts
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EPT
