|
Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
On August 27 2024 23:38 Magic Powers wrote:
Huh? Ok, can you solve every mathematical equation? No, you can't? Ok then you're inept at math altogether. I win the argument.
That's not how things work.
Hmmmm.
It's more like: you can't solve this equation, so why don't you review your parameters and operations and where they come from.
Good straw man though!
|
On August 27 2024 22:17 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2024 22:16 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I mean those people survived so they didn't actually die. Makes it a pretty different scenario. If they had survived through killing and eating their sick friends, I could be on board with that being less moral of an action than not killing their sick friends and themselves dying.
I agree that there are interesting, different approaches to the trolley problem, and I don't necessarily fully ascribe to the type of utilitarian view which would make switching from 2 to 1 the right thing to do. Honestly I imagine myself freezing and not doing anything, if I have such a dillemma. But there's a big difference between saying 'there are situations where consistently applying simplified utilitarianism could lead to a corruption of morality through making life seem expendable' and saying 'there's no difference between the murder of 1 and the murder of 1 million'. The former makes total sense to me, and is the point I think you would actually like to argue, but you're arguing the latter, which is nonsense. I'm pretty late to the party of explaining this though, and I don't really see the point in arguing it any further. The people on the boat didn't all survive, I thought that was clear. My bad if I failed to express that clearly. You can call my view nonsense as much as you like, I know it's not nonsense at all. It's just not a view you subscribe to for your own reasons. At the end of the day I'm against all murder, and you're not against all murder.
You can claim it isn't nonsense until you're blue in the face, that doesn't make it sensical. I know flat earthers who will insist with equal insistence as you are doing that their worldview isn't nonsense at all. Sadly for all of you, the earth is spherical and your kindergarten moral philosophy has gaping holes in it.
|
Donald Trump just said that he rigged the 2020 election *against himself* by helping Joe Biden win... and Trump claims to have done this by suppressing the non-existent Hunter Biden laptop story.
https://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrump/posts/113033922352949059
Reality: Trump unsuccessfully tried to steal the election win from Joe Biden.
|
What Zuckerberg actually said was he regrets complying with the Biden White House's censorship pressure esp. re: coldvid, and also independently that he regrets they suppressed the true Hunter laptop story at the request of the FBI. So Drumpf is conflating two separate pressures, one which came from Biden's White House, and one which came from the deep state FBI to interfere with the election Drumpf was running in while president. You can read Zuck's letter to the House Judiciary Committee at reputable news outlets everywhere and it's probably even been reposted on Truth Social also if you wanted to find it there.
|
On August 28 2024 01:30 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2024 22:17 Magic Powers wrote:On August 27 2024 22:16 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I mean those people survived so they didn't actually die. Makes it a pretty different scenario. If they had survived through killing and eating their sick friends, I could be on board with that being less moral of an action than not killing their sick friends and themselves dying.
I agree that there are interesting, different approaches to the trolley problem, and I don't necessarily fully ascribe to the type of utilitarian view which would make switching from 2 to 1 the right thing to do. Honestly I imagine myself freezing and not doing anything, if I have such a dillemma. But there's a big difference between saying 'there are situations where consistently applying simplified utilitarianism could lead to a corruption of morality through making life seem expendable' and saying 'there's no difference between the murder of 1 and the murder of 1 million'. The former makes total sense to me, and is the point I think you would actually like to argue, but you're arguing the latter, which is nonsense. I'm pretty late to the party of explaining this though, and I don't really see the point in arguing it any further. The people on the boat didn't all survive, I thought that was clear. My bad if I failed to express that clearly. You can call my view nonsense as much as you like, I know it's not nonsense at all. It's just not a view you subscribe to for your own reasons. At the end of the day I'm against all murder, and you're not against all murder. You can claim it isn't nonsense until you're blue in the face, that doesn't make it sensical. I know flat earthers who will insist with equal insistence as you are doing that their worldview isn't nonsense at all. Sadly for all of you, the earth is spherical and your kindergarten moral philosophy has gaping holes in it.
Saying that murder is literally always wrong is nonsense in your opinion?
|
On August 28 2024 03:14 oBlade wrote:
What Zuckerberg actually said was he regrets complying with the Biden White House's censorship pressure, and also independently that he regrets they suppressed the true Hunter laptop story at the request of the FBI. So Drumpf is conflating two separate pressures, one which came from Biden's White House, and one which came from the deep state FBI to interfere with the election Drumpf was running in while president. You can read Zuck's letter to the House Judiciary Committee at reputable news outlets everywhere and it's probably even been reposted on Truth Social also if you wanted to find it there.
Biden's "censorship pressure" was his administration asking Facebook if they could ease up on all the covid satire and misinformation in 2021, because lives were at stake and they were trying to get the pandemic under control. Facebook generally said No, and that was the gist of it.
So yeah, Trump obviously has no idea what he's talking about, but it's nice to see him accidentally admitting to rigging the election, even if his post is completely backwards and wrong.
Anyways, sorry to disrupt the Nazi Trolley thread with a post about U.S. politics.
|
On August 28 2024 03:14 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2024 01:30 Acrofales wrote:On August 27 2024 22:17 Magic Powers wrote:On August 27 2024 22:16 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I mean those people survived so they didn't actually die. Makes it a pretty different scenario. If they had survived through killing and eating their sick friends, I could be on board with that being less moral of an action than not killing their sick friends and themselves dying.
I agree that there are interesting, different approaches to the trolley problem, and I don't necessarily fully ascribe to the type of utilitarian view which would make switching from 2 to 1 the right thing to do. Honestly I imagine myself freezing and not doing anything, if I have such a dillemma. But there's a big difference between saying 'there are situations where consistently applying simplified utilitarianism could lead to a corruption of morality through making life seem expendable' and saying 'there's no difference between the murder of 1 and the murder of 1 million'. The former makes total sense to me, and is the point I think you would actually like to argue, but you're arguing the latter, which is nonsense. I'm pretty late to the party of explaining this though, and I don't really see the point in arguing it any further. The people on the boat didn't all survive, I thought that was clear. My bad if I failed to express that clearly. You can call my view nonsense as much as you like, I know it's not nonsense at all. It's just not a view you subscribe to for your own reasons. At the end of the day I'm against all murder, and you're not against all murder. You can claim it isn't nonsense until you're blue in the face, that doesn't make it sensical. I know flat earthers who will insist with equal insistence as you are doing that their worldview isn't nonsense at all. Sadly for all of you, the earth is spherical and your kindergarten moral philosophy has gaping holes in it. Saying that murder is literally always wrong is nonsense in your opinion?
No, saying that murdering 2+ people is just as bad as murdering 1 person is nonsense.
Also, sometimes something wrong is still the right choice. I believe stealing is also always wrong. But it's a lesser wrong than having your family starve, so stealing food so your kids don't starve is the right choice, despite it prescribing something that is wrong.
|
Yeah Drumpf mistyped that's so funny. It's such a clever joke that hasn't already run out, haha Drumpf rigged the election to elect Biden. Drumpf may have mistyped but I'm inclined to believe the CEO of Facebook about censorship at Facebook. He did not say they said "no" to censoring humor. It should worry any responsible citizen that its government would control information to begin with, let alone humor. I don't feel comforted if the White House told them to delete 100 things and they only deleted 50. Anyone involved can leave government forever.
https://x.com/JudiciaryGOP/status/1828201780544504064
|
Government asking networks to clamp down on misinformation in the midst of a global pandemic is not something I worry about no.
In fact I encourage it.
|
On August 28 2024 03:28 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2024 03:14 Magic Powers wrote:On August 28 2024 01:30 Acrofales wrote:On August 27 2024 22:17 Magic Powers wrote:On August 27 2024 22:16 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I mean those people survived so they didn't actually die. Makes it a pretty different scenario. If they had survived through killing and eating their sick friends, I could be on board with that being less moral of an action than not killing their sick friends and themselves dying.
I agree that there are interesting, different approaches to the trolley problem, and I don't necessarily fully ascribe to the type of utilitarian view which would make switching from 2 to 1 the right thing to do. Honestly I imagine myself freezing and not doing anything, if I have such a dillemma. But there's a big difference between saying 'there are situations where consistently applying simplified utilitarianism could lead to a corruption of morality through making life seem expendable' and saying 'there's no difference between the murder of 1 and the murder of 1 million'. The former makes total sense to me, and is the point I think you would actually like to argue, but you're arguing the latter, which is nonsense. I'm pretty late to the party of explaining this though, and I don't really see the point in arguing it any further. The people on the boat didn't all survive, I thought that was clear. My bad if I failed to express that clearly. You can call my view nonsense as much as you like, I know it's not nonsense at all. It's just not a view you subscribe to for your own reasons. At the end of the day I'm against all murder, and you're not against all murder. You can claim it isn't nonsense until you're blue in the face, that doesn't make it sensical. I know flat earthers who will insist with equal insistence as you are doing that their worldview isn't nonsense at all. Sadly for all of you, the earth is spherical and your kindergarten moral philosophy has gaping holes in it. Saying that murder is literally always wrong is nonsense in your opinion? No, saying that murdering 2+ people is just as bad as murdering 1 person is nonsense. Also, sometimes something wrong is still the right choice. I believe stealing is also always wrong. But it's a lesser wrong than having your family starve, so stealing food so your kids don't starve is the right choice, despite it prescribing something that is wrong.
That's your opinion, I hope you realize that you're not objectively right. It's entirely subjective. If you were objectively right, then the trolley problem would have an objective correct answer, which it doesn't.
|
On August 28 2024 03:14 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2024 01:30 Acrofales wrote:On August 27 2024 22:17 Magic Powers wrote:On August 27 2024 22:16 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I mean those people survived so they didn't actually die. Makes it a pretty different scenario. If they had survived through killing and eating their sick friends, I could be on board with that being less moral of an action than not killing their sick friends and themselves dying.
I agree that there are interesting, different approaches to the trolley problem, and I don't necessarily fully ascribe to the type of utilitarian view which would make switching from 2 to 1 the right thing to do. Honestly I imagine myself freezing and not doing anything, if I have such a dillemma. But there's a big difference between saying 'there are situations where consistently applying simplified utilitarianism could lead to a corruption of morality through making life seem expendable' and saying 'there's no difference between the murder of 1 and the murder of 1 million'. The former makes total sense to me, and is the point I think you would actually like to argue, but you're arguing the latter, which is nonsense. I'm pretty late to the party of explaining this though, and I don't really see the point in arguing it any further. The people on the boat didn't all survive, I thought that was clear. My bad if I failed to express that clearly. You can call my view nonsense as much as you like, I know it's not nonsense at all. It's just not a view you subscribe to for your own reasons. At the end of the day I'm against all murder, and you're not against all murder. You can claim it isn't nonsense until you're blue in the face, that doesn't make it sensical. I know flat earthers who will insist with equal insistence as you are doing that their worldview isn't nonsense at all. Sadly for all of you, the earth is spherical and your kindergarten moral philosophy has gaping holes in it. Saying that murder is literally always wrong is nonsense in your opinion?
The problem is you’re making absolutely no effort to analyze your nonsense view when challenged. Saying “Life has infinite value” is a nice feel good hallmark moment for yourself but when I present you with multiple hypotheticals of what that belief necessitates you just squirm around and deflect.
For example, since this started with a discussion on Israel, your belief dictates that Israel using a precision guided bomb to target a terrorist that kills one civilian as collateral damage is equally as bad as Israel carpet bombing all of Gaza to kill the same terrorist. If everyone in the world had your same dumb view then Israel would take the path of least resistance and murder everyone in Gaza since they wouldn’t look any worse than they do now. Your view incentivizes Israel to commit mass murder in Gaza. If your idea performs so terribly in so many real world applications it should give you pause. Instead you kind of just throw your arms up and say “that’s not what I’m saying” which really just shows you’re completely incapable of applying your own logic.
|
On August 28 2024 03:34 oBlade wrote:Yeah Drumpf mistyped that's so funny. It's such a clever joke that hasn't already run out, haha Drumpf rigged the election to elect Biden. Drumpf may have mistyped but I'm inclined to believe the CEO of Facebook about censorship at Facebook. He did not say they said "no" to censoring humor. It should worry any responsible citizen that its government would control information to begin with, let alone humor. I don't feel comforted if the White House told them to delete 100 things and they only deleted 50. Anyone involved can leave government forever. https://x.com/JudiciaryGOP/status/1828201780544504064
Yes, he did. He even said that the Biden administration was frustrated when Facebook didn't agree to censor the covid-19 content, including satire and humor. That's written in the first sentence of the big paragraph that starts with "In 2021."
It should be noted that 2021 was after the 2020 election, and this isn't just Trump writing a typo. He's creating a whole fabricated narrative that involves non-existent election rigging by President Biden who wasn't even president.
|
On August 28 2024 03:39 Gorsameth wrote:
Government asking networks to clamp down on misinformation in the midst of a global pandemic is not something I worry about no.
In fact I encourage it.
Noticed you changed “pressured” to “ask” there
|
On August 28 2024 03:39 Gorsameth wrote:
Government asking networks to clamp down on misinformation in the midst of a global pandemic is not something I worry about no.
In fact I encourage it.
Agreed. And the reason Republicans are so against it isn't because they're some sacred champions of free speech, but rather because they get clicks and go viral and make money by spreading their lies and propaganda on social media. And then people die.
|
On August 28 2024 04:09 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2024 03:39 Gorsameth wrote:
Government asking networks to clamp down on misinformation in the midst of a global pandemic is not something I worry about no.
In fact I encourage it.
Noticed you changed “pressured” to “ask” there you ask, and when they say no you pressure.
|
On August 28 2024 04:12 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2024 04:09 BlackJack wrote:On August 28 2024 03:39 Gorsameth wrote:
Government asking networks to clamp down on misinformation in the midst of a global pandemic is not something I worry about no.
In fact I encourage it.
Noticed you changed “pressured” to “ask” there you ask, and when they say no you pressure.
Not to mention the fact that Zuckerberg literally said "it was our decision whether or not to take content down".
|
On August 28 2024 04:12 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2024 04:09 BlackJack wrote:On August 28 2024 03:39 Gorsameth wrote:
Government asking networks to clamp down on misinformation in the midst of a global pandemic is not something I worry about no.
In fact I encourage it.
Noticed you changed “pressured” to “ask” there you ask, and when they say no you pressure.
Well sounds like Zuckerberg isn’t going to tolerate that anymore. Elon probably won’t either. Sounds like the government is going to have to make good on their pressure and start breaking some kneecaps if they want speech to be censored on social media.
|
On August 28 2024 04:03 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2024 03:14 Magic Powers wrote:On August 28 2024 01:30 Acrofales wrote:On August 27 2024 22:17 Magic Powers wrote:On August 27 2024 22:16 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I mean those people survived so they didn't actually die. Makes it a pretty different scenario. If they had survived through killing and eating their sick friends, I could be on board with that being less moral of an action than not killing their sick friends and themselves dying.
I agree that there are interesting, different approaches to the trolley problem, and I don't necessarily fully ascribe to the type of utilitarian view which would make switching from 2 to 1 the right thing to do. Honestly I imagine myself freezing and not doing anything, if I have such a dillemma. But there's a big difference between saying 'there are situations where consistently applying simplified utilitarianism could lead to a corruption of morality through making life seem expendable' and saying 'there's no difference between the murder of 1 and the murder of 1 million'. The former makes total sense to me, and is the point I think you would actually like to argue, but you're arguing the latter, which is nonsense. I'm pretty late to the party of explaining this though, and I don't really see the point in arguing it any further. The people on the boat didn't all survive, I thought that was clear. My bad if I failed to express that clearly. You can call my view nonsense as much as you like, I know it's not nonsense at all. It's just not a view you subscribe to for your own reasons. At the end of the day I'm against all murder, and you're not against all murder. You can claim it isn't nonsense until you're blue in the face, that doesn't make it sensical. I know flat earthers who will insist with equal insistence as you are doing that their worldview isn't nonsense at all. Sadly for all of you, the earth is spherical and your kindergarten moral philosophy has gaping holes in it. Saying that murder is literally always wrong is nonsense in your opinion? The problem is you’re making absolutely no effort to analyze your nonsense view when challenged. Saying “Life has infinite value” is a nice feel good hallmark moment for yourself but when I present you with multiple hypotheticals of what that belief necessitates you just squirm around and deflect. For example, since this started with a discussion on Israel, your belief dictates that Israel using a precision guided bomb to target a terrorist that kills one civilian as collateral damage is equally as bad as Israel carpet bombing all of Gaza to kill the same terrorist. If everyone in the world had your same dumb view then Israel would take the path of least resistance and murder everyone in Gaza since they wouldn’t look any worse than they do now. Your view incentivizes Israel to commit mass murder in Gaza. If your idea performs so terribly in so many real world applications it should give you pause. Instead you kind of just throw your arms up and say “that’s not what I’m saying” which really just shows you’re completely incapable of applying your own logic.
This is ultimately where I land on the subject. "Life has infinite value" is a lazy thing you can say you hold as an ideal, and something you might say to make the math work, but it doesn't actually hold up to any scrutiny. It's not a robust philosophy that has been tested and found any ground, it's a privileged philosophy that gets to exist exactly because it hasnt been tested.
|
On August 27 2024 19:40 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2024 15:07 Liquid`Drone wrote:On August 27 2024 14:31 BlackJack wrote:
Applying MP’s logic, if you are a nation at war then as soon as you kill your first innocent civilian you might as well carry on killing many more intentionally. You’ve already committed the mortal sin of murder and since it’s no worse to kill one million people than one person you might as well just carry on slaughtering people. It will help the war effort. It’s a good thing nobody else follows this logic because we wouldn’t want to incentivize mass murder. I mean there's the 'probably not actually stated by Stalin but still attributed to him'- quote: "The death of one man is a tragedy. The death of millions is a statistic." Aptly put. People are missing the point I'm making because they miss the part where I attribute infinite value to every single individual life. Infinity times a million is not a greater infinity than infinity times one. It's the same. One murder equates to a million murders. What people are also missing is that the utility of human life - unlike value - is finite. The greater utility of a million people can never be used to rationalize murdering one person, because the act of murder steals infinite value. Value, due to being infinite, always surpasses utility. I could describe it this way: my reasoning makes absolutely sure that murder is never right and always wrong. Putting the utility of numbers above the value of individual life does the opposite: it incentivizes murder.
The problem is: when does every human life actually have "infinite" value? The simple answer is never, and we all have very strict hierarchies of which human lives we value more based on our group proximity. At some theoretical level, you can claim that every human life is worth just as much, and that value is "infinity", but this translates terribly to any real world situation.
Every parent should be ready to kill for their children. All countries have soldiers, who are ready to murder at short notice. Do you really care about every human on the planet equally? Of course you don't, it is impossible. You can only have any relation to a few thousand people in a lifetime, and will obviously care more for people closer to you or your own group.
I find news reports very telling about this. X-thousand people were killed in Y disaster in a foreign country, but if anyone from that country is among them, it will be told about right away.
|
On August 28 2024 04:44 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2024 04:12 Gorsameth wrote:On August 28 2024 04:09 BlackJack wrote:On August 28 2024 03:39 Gorsameth wrote:
Government asking networks to clamp down on misinformation in the midst of a global pandemic is not something I worry about no.
In fact I encourage it.
Noticed you changed “pressured” to “ask” there you ask, and when they say no you pressure. Well sounds like Zuckerberg isn’t going to tolerate that anymore. Elon probably won’t either. Sounds like the government is going to have to make good on their pressure and start breaking some kneecaps if they want speech to be censored on social media. I know you think your pointing out a flaw but I have been hoping for the EU to crack down on social media lies and bullshit for some time.
Oh slippy slope and all that shit.
social media and the echo chambers of bullshit it has created are serious issue for society and it only keeps getting worse, something needs to happen.
PS
that is also why Zuckerberg gave in, and will give in in the future. If social media doesn't pretend to moderate itself the government will step in to do it for them as it did to other more traditional forms of media decades ago.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
