Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!
NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.
On April 19 2024 16:27 Salazarz wrote: I find the whole 'Hamas is to blame for this!' reductionist and missing nuance; just like attributing deaths in WW2 squarely to Nazis is.
Wait, sorry, is WW2 not the fault of the Nazis now? What?
Thought this was a sarcastic meta joke considering you've made the other side of this point yourself.
There’s no option C where you drop the bomb on the wedding and claim responsibility for the bomb killing the terrorist while denying any responsibility for the bomb killing everyone else.
Israel can rationalize or attempt to justify the tens of thousands of civilians they've killed, but they can't escape responsibility by blaming Hamas for "starting it". Nevermind the whole Israel being an illegal occupying force running an apartheid government executing a slow burn ethnic cleansing campaign part, or the "imperfect peace" as you call it.
I’m not sure you’re understanding me. In the post you quoted I used the example of the trolley problem to make it clear what I meant and you didn’t quote that part.
On May 19 2021 15:06 KwarK wrote: Consider the trolley problem, a trolley is heading towards ten people but you can divert it so that it only kills one person. If you divert it you are responsible for killing one person and for saving ten. You would probably believe yourself justified in diverting it but that wouldn’t change your responsibility.
It was about it being okay to take ownership of the evil realities of no win scenarios. You didn’t tie the people to the tracks and you didn’t set the trolley in motion. That’s not on you. Within the scenario you choose to divert the trolley to hit the one person because it’s the right option. You don’t claim it wasn’t you, you don’t claim you were forced, you state you did it, here’s why you did it, and that you’d do it again.
Israel is responsible for their choices within the trolley problem thrust upon them. Hamas is responsible for tying Palestinian children onto the tracks.
On April 20 2024 02:42 Sadist wrote: Do you mean Israel is an illegal occupying force in Gaza or that Israels existance period is an illegal occupying force in former Palestine? Just looking for some clarification.
I mean they are and have been a US supported illegal occupying force running an apartheid government executing a slow burn ethnic cleansing campaign for decades before, through Oct 7, and still are. Though the ethnic cleansing campaign has picked up in pace since Oct 7.
“For over 55 years, the Israeli military occupation has prevented the realisation of the right to self-determination of the Palestinian people, violating each component of that right and wilfully pursuing the ‘de-Palestinianisation’ of the occupied territory,” said Francesca Albanese, UN Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian Territory occupied since 1967, in her report to the UN General Assembly.
The report asserts the Israeli occupation violates Palestinian territorial sovereignty by seizing, annexing, fragmenting, and transferring its civilian population to the occupied territory.
The occupation furthermore “endangers the cultural existence of the Palestinian people”, said the UN rights office press release summarizing the report, by erasing or appropriating symbols expressing Palestinian identity and violates Palestinians’ ability to organise themselves, free from alien domination and control, by repressing Palestinian political activity, advocacy and activism.
“This is, in essence, proof of the intent to colonise the occupied territory, and manifests Israel’s policies of domination through the “strategic fragmentation” of the occupied territory,” the expert said.
The international community’s political, humanitarian, and economic approach towards resolving the Israel-Palestine conflict, have failed without exception, the report notes.
“These approaches conflate root causes with symptoms and serve to normalise Israel’s illegal occupation instead of challenging it. This is immoral and renders the regulatory and remedial function of international law futile,” Albanese said.
On April 19 2024 16:27 Salazarz wrote: I find the whole 'Hamas is to blame for this!' reductionist and missing nuance; just like attributing deaths in WW2 squarely to Nazis is.
Wait, sorry, is WW2 not the fault of the Nazis now? What?
Thought this was a sarcastic meta joke considering you've made the other side of this point yourself.
There’s no option C where you drop the bomb on the wedding and claim responsibility for the bomb killing the terrorist while denying any responsibility for the bomb killing everyone else.
Israel can rationalize or attempt to justify the tens of thousands of civilians they've killed, but they can't escape responsibility by blaming Hamas for "starting it". Nevermind the whole Israel being an illegal occupying force running an apartheid government executing a slow burn ethnic cleansing campaign part, or the "imperfect peace" as you call it.
I’m not sure you’re understanding me. In the post you quoted I used the example of the trolley problem to make it clear what I meant and you didn’t quote that part.
On May 19 2021 15:06 KwarK wrote: Consider the trolley problem, a trolley is heading towards ten people but you can divert it so that it only kills one person. If you divert it you are responsible for killing one person and for saving ten. You would probably believe yourself justified in diverting it but that wouldn’t change your responsibility.
It was about it being okay to take ownership of the evil realities of no win scenarios. You didn’t tie the people to the tracks and you didn’t set the trolley in motion. That’s not on you. Within the scenario you choose to divert the trolley to hit the one person because it’s the right option. You don’t claim it wasn’t you, you don’t claim you were forced, you state you did it, here’s why you did it, and that you’d do it again.
Israel is responsible for their choices within the trolley problem thrust upon them. Hamas is responsible for tying Palestinian children onto the tracks.
Except that the trolley problem doesn't really apply here. To make the forced analogy, when made to choose between a track with 10 people and another with 1, they stopped the train, went to find some women and children, tied them to the track with 10 people rolled over it and said "our hands were tied, the train was heading in that direction already"
On April 19 2024 14:28 Acrofales wrote: We don't have to defend China's shitty business practices to say America has shitty business practices. We don't even have to enter into a pointless comparison about who's worse.
I don't think it's about "who's worse" or "defending China". It's about the absurdity of the US government unabashedly using constitutionally enshrined domestic slave labor while peacocking about their deep concern for the human rights of Uighurs at risk of being forced laborers.
We don't have to speculate why they do that to know that it isn't about opposition to forced labor on principle.
I think that's a fair point. The US government clearly has an ulterior motive in pointing at Uyghur slave labor while encouraging it in their own prisons. That said, there is also a point that just like vegans don't wear leather products as a statement against cruelty to animals, anybody feeling strongly enough can protest slavery by not buying Chinese cotton products and also not eat food processed in US prisons.
That all said and done, there's no point arguing with Jimmy about it. Uyghurs are his favourite whataboutism. Do you think Jimmy wears cotton clothes? I do. So why waste words in that argument?
And you would have another flawed assumption of me. Just as I check on my sourcing of food, I do on my clothes as well. I’m pretty anal when it comes to following through. Helps that I think the fashion industry is likely worst and does not take nearly enough shit compared to big oil, pharama and so on. It does all the bad stuff, sexual exploitation even of kids, slave labour, huge profit margins, massive amounts of waste for landfills, huge environmental costs. You tend to pay more per item but when you wear em till they fall apart they last long.
I probably have worn some as I also do get close from second hand shops and that is harder to source. But as I became more aware I’ve become much conscious. Where you spend your money makes a much bigger statement then just about anything.
That is why I laugh at the “communists” at Starbucks rockin their custom Fidel Castro kicks.
Edit: I should clarify that I'm far from perfect and I don't tell people in my real life what they should do. But I also do not present myself as a "revolutionary" or anything like that. However, if people ask me I do tell them my unfiltered opinion no matter how unpopular. Which is probably something you would assume.
Edit: Also I think you are misusing whataboutism or I'm not being clear. By all means do the protests on everything but given that someone only has limited time and effort they should prioritize the bigger and clearer issues, even (especially) if they are not popular. There is lots of places to get ethically sourced clothing and cotton. Here is one I have used for clothes for my wife for presents, https://provinceofcanada.com/
Yeah largely agreed, especially that the fashion industry frequently gets a pretty big pass in terms of being mentioned alongside other exploitative or harmful industries.
But fully upending global capitalist practice through grass roots conscience-based consumption is really only one step on the ladder below some full-scale socialistic revolution in the difficulty of execution scale. Added to that some folks are just priced out of being ethical consumers, even if the will is there.
Not selling more arms to Israel/intervening for a ceasefire ASAP is a much more limited in scope, much more likely (even if still unlikely IMO) endeavour to actually achieve something area of focus.
On April 20 2024 02:42 Sadist wrote: Do you mean Israel is an illegal occupying force in Gaza or that Israels existance period is an illegal occupying force in former Palestine? Just looking for some clarification.
I mean they are and have been a US supported illegal occupying force running an apartheid government executing a slow burn ethnic cleansing campaign for decades before, through Oct 7, and still are. Though the ethnic cleansing campaign has picked up in pace since Oct 7.
“For over 55 years, the Israeli military occupation has prevented the realisation of the right to self-determination of the Palestinian people, violating each component of that right and wilfully pursuing the ‘de-Palestinianisation’ of the occupied territory,” said Francesca Albanese, UN Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian Territory occupied since 1967, in her report to the UN General Assembly.
The report asserts the Israeli occupation violates Palestinian territorial sovereignty by seizing, annexing, fragmenting, and transferring its civilian population to the occupied territory.
The occupation furthermore “endangers the cultural existence of the Palestinian people”, said the UN rights office press release summarizing the report, by erasing or appropriating symbols expressing Palestinian identity and violates Palestinians’ ability to organise themselves, free from alien domination and control, by repressing Palestinian political activity, advocacy and activism.
“This is, in essence, proof of the intent to colonise the occupied territory, and manifests Israel’s policies of domination through the “strategic fragmentation” of the occupied territory,” the expert said.
The international community’s political, humanitarian, and economic approach towards resolving the Israel-Palestine conflict, have failed without exception, the report notes.
“These approaches conflate root causes with symptoms and serve to normalise Israel’s illegal occupation instead of challenging it. This is immoral and renders the regulatory and remedial function of international law futile,” Albanese said.
In other words, Israel has been piling Palestinians on Kwark's metaphorical tracks for generations.
I remember reading an article in one of Polish major newspapers about two decades ago, it was a story told by a member of a Polish humanitarian organisation. They told how their org helped build a new water well for a Palestinian village, and how a few days after the well was finished the Israeli military came in with bulldozers and destroyed it. I remember this story to this day because of the terrible cruelty and injustice of it. Now imagine how many similar, or worse, injustices like that have happened to the Palestinians over the decades. It would radicalise any population. I'm not trying to excuse terrosist attacks by Hamas and others against Israel, but the state of Israel is not an innocent victim, never has. They have been actively puring gasoline on the fire of the cycle of mutual hatred for a long time.
On April 19 2024 14:28 Acrofales wrote: We don't have to defend China's shitty business practices to say America has shitty business practices. We don't even have to enter into a pointless comparison about who's worse.
I don't think it's about "who's worse" or "defending China". It's about the absurdity of the US government unabashedly using constitutionally enshrined domestic slave labor while peacocking about their deep concern for the human rights of Uighurs at risk of being forced laborers.
We don't have to speculate why they do that to know that it isn't about opposition to forced labor on principle.
I think that's a fair point. The US government clearly has an ulterior motive in pointing at Uyghur slave labor while encouraging it in their own prisons. That said, there is also a point that just like vegans don't wear leather products as a statement against cruelty to animals, anybody feeling strongly enough can protest slavery by not buying Chinese cotton products and also not eat food processed in US prisons.
That all said and done, there's no point arguing with Jimmy about it. Uyghurs are his favourite whataboutism. Do you think Jimmy wears cotton clothes? I do. So why waste words in that argument?
And you would have another flawed assumption of me. Just as I check on my sourcing of food, I do on my clothes as well. I’m pretty anal when it comes to following through. Helps that I think the fashion industry is likely worst and does not take nearly enough shit compared to big oil, pharama and so on. It does all the bad stuff, sexual exploitation even of kids, slave labour, huge profit margins, massive amounts of waste for landfills, huge environmental costs. You tend to pay more per item but when you wear em till they fall apart they last long.
I probably have worn some as I also do get close from second hand shops and that is harder to source. But as I became more aware I’ve become much conscious. Where you spend your money makes a much bigger statement then just about anything.
That is why I laugh at the “communists” at Starbucks rockin their custom Fidel Castro kicks.
Edit: I should clarify that I'm far from perfect and I don't tell people in my real life what they should do. But I also do not present myself as a "revolutionary" or anything like that. However, if people ask me I do tell them my unfiltered opinion no matter how unpopular. Which is probably something you would assume.
Edit: Also I think you are misusing whataboutism or I'm not being clear. By all means do the protests on everything but given that someone only has limited time and effort they should prioritize the bigger and clearer issues, even (especially) if they are not popular. There is lots of places to get ethically sourced clothing and cotton. Here is one I have used for clothes for my wife for presents, https://provinceofcanada.com/
Yeah largely agreed, especially that the fashion industry frequently gets a pretty big pass in terms of being mentioned alongside other exploitative or harmful industries.
But fully upending global capitalist practice through grass roots conscience-based consumption is really only one step on the ladder below some full-scale socialistic revolution in the difficulty of execution scale. Added to that some folks are just priced out of being ethical consumers, even if the will is there.
Not selling more arms to Israel/intervening for a ceasefire ASAP is a much more limited in scope, much more likely (even if still unlikely IMO) endeavour to actually achieve something area of focus.
Of course there’s also space to both.
Who arms are sold to is not within one’s control, and the whole issue is far from black and white. What you buy is within your control and is black and white. The cost is an issue but for almost all it is more choice related. Being so you buy beer and fast fashion or ethically sourced. Or often just less and given quality difference you should be fine. The big thing you are giving up is variety and trendiness, which in my book is very unimportant. To most others not so much.
It is something that the US could decide today not to do, yes it is not directly within an individual’s power, but it is within someone’s, unlike the inequities of global capitalism and ethical consumption habits.
Which itself isn’t a particularly black and white issue to begin with, although of course still fraught with pretty obvious ethical transgressions.
There’s a pretty tangled web to navigate to one who’s trying to buy somewhat responsibly. Not just parent companies and who’s really behind brands, but significant investment and where that’s coming from.
But hey still a worthwhile endeavour nonetheless, I just think you somewhat underestimate the difficulty of such a thing is all. Doesn’t mean I don’t think it should be done.
Democrats and their rank and file supporters have been painfully bad on Gaza, but at least college kids are doing what they can. After Columbia University sicked the NYPD on students protesting at the University, more students came in to keep the protest going.
Yale students have also joined in solidarity making similar demands of Yale
Students at other schools have announced they would also hold various rallies, walkouts, and so on in solidarity.
Now, students at several other universities are planning rallies in solidarity with the Columbia University demonstrators.
The University of North Carolina Students for Justice in Palestine is holding a solidarity rally Friday. The Boston University Students for Justice in Palestine announced an “emergency rally.” The Students for Justice in Palestine at The Ohio State University announced an “emergency protest supporting Gaza solidarity encampment.” And the Harvard College Palestine Solidarity Committee announced a student walkout “in solidarity with steadfast Columbia students.”
On April 20 2024 02:42 Sadist wrote: Do you mean Israel is an illegal occupying force in Gaza or that Israels existance period is an illegal occupying force in former Palestine? Just looking for some clarification.
I mean they are and have been a US supported illegal occupying force running an apartheid government executing a slow burn ethnic cleansing campaign for decades before, through Oct 7, and still are. Though the ethnic cleansing campaign has picked up in pace since Oct 7.
“For over 55 years, the Israeli military occupation has prevented the realisation of the right to self-determination of the Palestinian people, violating each component of that right and wilfully pursuing the ‘de-Palestinianisation’ of the occupied territory,” said Francesca Albanese, UN Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian Territory occupied since 1967, in her report to the UN General Assembly.
The report asserts the Israeli occupation violates Palestinian territorial sovereignty by seizing, annexing, fragmenting, and transferring its civilian population to the occupied territory.
The occupation furthermore “endangers the cultural existence of the Palestinian people”, said the UN rights office press release summarizing the report, by erasing or appropriating symbols expressing Palestinian identity and violates Palestinians’ ability to organise themselves, free from alien domination and control, by repressing Palestinian political activity, advocacy and activism.
“This is, in essence, proof of the intent to colonise the occupied territory, and manifests Israel’s policies of domination through the “strategic fragmentation” of the occupied territory,” the expert said.
The international community’s political, humanitarian, and economic approach towards resolving the Israel-Palestine conflict, have failed without exception, the report notes.
“These approaches conflate root causes with symptoms and serve to normalise Israel’s illegal occupation instead of challenging it. This is immoral and renders the regulatory and remedial function of international law futile,” Albanese said.
Donald Trump requested the right to have unlimited strikes to eliminate as many jurors as he wants, for any reason. That's not a thing, obviously - he can't just rotate through qualified jurors until he gets a panel full of MAGA supporters, nor can he indefinitely prolong his first criminal trial by rejecting everyone. Obviously, this was turned down by the judge, and the jury/alternates have already been selected.
On April 20 2024 02:42 Sadist wrote: Do you mean Israel is an illegal occupying force in Gaza or that Israels existance period is an illegal occupying force in former Palestine? Just looking for some clarification.
I mean they are and have been a US supported illegal occupying force running an apartheid government executing a slow burn ethnic cleansing campaign for decades before, through Oct 7, and still are. Though the ethnic cleansing campaign has picked up in pace since Oct 7.
“For over 55 years, the Israeli military occupation has prevented the realisation of the right to self-determination of the Palestinian people, violating each component of that right and wilfully pursuing the ‘de-Palestinianisation’ of the occupied territory,” said Francesca Albanese, UN Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian Territory occupied since 1967, in her report to the UN General Assembly.
The report asserts the Israeli occupation violates Palestinian territorial sovereignty by seizing, annexing, fragmenting, and transferring its civilian population to the occupied territory.
The occupation furthermore “endangers the cultural existence of the Palestinian people”, said the UN rights office press release summarizing the report, by erasing or appropriating symbols expressing Palestinian identity and violates Palestinians’ ability to organise themselves, free from alien domination and control, by repressing Palestinian political activity, advocacy and activism.
“This is, in essence, proof of the intent to colonise the occupied territory, and manifests Israel’s policies of domination through the “strategic fragmentation” of the occupied territory,” the expert said.
The international community’s political, humanitarian, and economic approach towards resolving the Israel-Palestine conflict, have failed without exception, the report notes.
“These approaches conflate root causes with symptoms and serve to normalise Israel’s illegal occupation instead of challenging it. This is immoral and renders the regulatory and remedial function of international law futile,” Albanese said.
In other words, Israel has been piling Palestinians on Kwark's metaphorical tracks for generations.
Albanese is antisemetic. Her reports aren't reliable.
Her choice of words was not particularly great, but it's a stretch to insist that she is an antisemite over essentially saying that Israeli lobby has strong influence over US policy in the Israel-Palestine conflict, considering that the current premier minister of Israel has straight up said that 'US is easy to control.' Seems more like an acknowledgement of the fact rather than some sort of malice towards Jews in general; besides, it's not as if she is the first or the last inspector to come to those same conclusions.
@Kwark: Conflict between Israel & Palestine didn't begin on October 7th. So either Hamas aren't the only ones responsible for deaths that happened afterwards, or the Allies should be considered responsible for deaths in the battle for Berlin. It's logically inconsistent to insist that Nazis bear full responsibility for all of deaths in WW2 while Israel bears zero responsibility for deaths in the Palestine-Gaza conflict.
It's also reductionist and in my opinion straight up stupid to reduce any major conflict in history to 'bad guys did bad things, good guys punished them for it.' Like, plenty of people predicted WW2 would happen 20 years before Nazism became a thing and Hitler came to power. Germany didn't just decide to start killing dudes and taking land in a vacuum, the responses to Hitler's initial expansion could have been better as well, etc etc. It's a complicated topic; just like the question of whether certain actions in WW2 such as above mentioned firebombings or the nuclear strikes on Japan etc were truly necessary and justified or not.
Likewise the conflict between Palestine and Israel is complex, there's a long-running list of grievances on both sides and both hands have blood on their hands. To pretend it's a simple matter of evil Hamas terrorists killing peaceful Jews because they are a genocidal death cult that just happens to hate Jews for no reason is asinine.
She used the same antisemetic trope against the BBC and included another one about Jewish greed, defended someone else who used the same anti sematic trope, compared Israel to Nazi Germany, and the Nakba to the Holocaust. She has no credibility. If there are other reports that say the same thing you're free to share them.
So what does everyone think? Do the Republicans try to impeach Mike Johnson as Speaker now? After the votes today, Republicans basically lost their months long fight about trying to tie Ukraine/Israel aid to the Border. They lost badly too, with more than Supermajority support for the Ukraine aid.
Do they try and replace Mike Johnson with only half a year to go until the Presidential elections and their majority in the House razor thin? If they don't replace him, what happens now?
On April 21 2024 16:08 Vindicare605 wrote: So what does everyone think? Do the Republicans try to impeach Mike Johnson as Speaker now? After the votes today, Republicans basically lost their months long fight about trying to tie Ukraine/Israel aid to the Border. They lost badly too, with more than Supermajority support for the Ukraine aid.
Do they try and replace Mike Johnson with only half a year to go until the Presidential elections and their majority in the House razor thin? If they don't replace him, what happens now?
I think House Republicans are in a tough spot: If they keep MJ, then they run the risk of more governing happening. If they remove MJ, then they look dysfunctional for promoting him in the first place. If they try to remove MJ and fail (there's a chance that the Dems might keep MJ around, if they believe they can continue passing bills with him), then that's the worst-case scenario for House Republicans. And even if MJ does get removed, there's not really another House Republican who can easily win enough votes to become the next Speaker.
Can't they make Trump the speaker and then complain that they can't govern because the hoax investigations are keeping Trump in the court room instead of the House?
On April 21 2024 23:04 micronesia wrote: Can't they make Trump the speaker and then complain that they can't govern because the hoax investigations are keeping Trump in the court room instead of the House?
Apparently, not only does Trump lack half a billion dollars in liquid assets, but he doesn't even have $175 million in cash and can't even get a $175 million bond from a legitimate bondsman.
On April 21 2024 23:04 micronesia wrote: Can't they make Trump the speaker and then complain that they can't govern because the hoax investigations are keeping Trump in the court room instead of the House?
Yes, the speaker doesn't need to be a member of the House but I doubt there is majority for it since the Republican margin is so small and there are I think enough left that don't support Trump.
EPT
