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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 4190

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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!

NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.

Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.


If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain17980 Posts
April 19 2024 05:28 GMT
#83781
We don't have to defend China's shitty business practices to say America has shitty business practices. We don't even have to enter into a pointless comparison about who's worse.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23218 Posts
April 19 2024 06:22 GMT
#83782
On April 19 2024 14:28 Acrofales wrote:
We don't have to defend China's shitty business practices to say America has shitty business practices. We don't even have to enter into a pointless comparison about who's worse.

I don't think it's about "who's worse" or "defending China". It's about the absurdity of the US government unabashedly using constitutionally enshrined domestic slave labor while peacocking about their deep concern for the human rights of Uighurs at risk of being forced laborers.

We don't have to speculate why they do that to know that it isn't about opposition to forced labor on principle.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-04-19 07:14:54
April 19 2024 06:58 GMT
#83783
--- Nuked ---
Salazarz
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Korea (South)2591 Posts
April 19 2024 07:27 GMT
#83784
On April 19 2024 15:58 JimmiC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 19 2024 12:27 Salazarz wrote:
On April 19 2024 12:12 JimmiC wrote:
On April 19 2024 12:06 JimmiC wrote:
On April 19 2024 11:36 Salazarz wrote:
On April 18 2024 22:26 JimmiC wrote:
On April 18 2024 15:39 Salazarz wrote:
You could make an argument about producing more than consuming being the 'moral' way of being in some ancient hunter-gatherer society, but in a modern capitalist civilization it is completely unreasonable. There's no way to adequately measure any individual's actual productivity since everything we do these days is hyper-connected, besides everyone's ability to be productive hinges on a vast number of factors including things that folks have very little influence over such as what type of family they were born into and what sort of education access they've had. Not to mention that a large number of enterprises and industries these days are bottlenecked by demand rather than their own productivity, so in a way from a capitalist's point of view consuming should actually be seen as 'moral' as it allows for further economic growth to happen.

Also, Ayn Rand was a raving lunatic, lol.


edit: Americans talking about 'virtue signaling' on the topic of forced labor in China has got to be peak irony, considering that slavery is straight up legalized in the US constitution. I assume people who try to make a stand against something like the situation of Gaza simply see the thousands of deaths and wide-spread starvation as a bigger and more urgent issue than forced labor, although obviously there are plenty of people who simply want to get on the latest hashtag as well.

Are you talking about prison labour? Pretty easy products to avoid and makes up such a tiny part of the economy. Vs in China where outside of the elite few billionaires it is almost everyone and that is before we get into the continued attempts of destroying multiple cultures, genocide and ethnic cleansing.

Even your blatant whataboutism is lame. Did you get this straight from the dictators propaganda mouth piece or social media? What an awful awful hot take. Not only have you compared a kernel of corn to ship full of watermelon but you can actually be against both!


How is it relevant whether it's easy to avoid the products of American slave labor or not? The point is, if your country is directly profiting from legalized slave labor it's ridiculous when the very same country goes and accuses someone else of using slave labor and insists there need to international actions taken against them. It's fake, it's hypocritical, and it's why not only the so-called global south but also more and more folks in traditionally US-aligned nations are growing disillusioned with the supposed 'rules-based order.'

Also, how in the world is 'nearly everyone in China' is a victim of forced labor? Incredible how you can spew this sort of garbage while simultaneously talking about 'propaganda mouthpieces' and 'social media.' Like, that is some facebook-grandma level idiocy right there.



The slave labour is not remotely the same, which you know. Stop being so dishonest with your points.

No Im sorry there is a ton of choice, freedom, fairness, forced relocations within the totalitarian regime currently tightening their grip, their massive amount of billionaires and wealthy along with their even larger number of poor.


I agree that it's not even remotely the same, given that USA straight up has legalized slavery writ into its constitution whereas in China it seems most of the forced labour schemes are various local bureaucrats skirting the edges of what is permissible to turn a bigger profit while the higher ups let it slide rather than the government being so brazenly open about their use of slave labor. Not sure where the dishonesty lies, though, but you're welcome to elaborate.

What choice? What freedom? What fairness? What forced relocations? For a guy who is supposedly so strict about using proper terms for things, and who is so against 'buzzwords' and 'virtue signaling', this sure reads like a lot of hot air with no real meaning behind it. It's also weird that you'd bring up China's amounts of billionaires and the poor when the US has significantly greater wealth inequality than China does. Tell me more about the propaganda mouthpieces though, please.

None of this is remotely true, yikes on it. Really scary if you believe almost any of it to be true. I mean US is a bunch of proud capitalists it makes sense they have a bunch of billionaires. They proudly believe in the trickle down effect. China is “communist”…

But I think the bigger question is Kwark also responded to you and far harsher than I, so why not respond to him?


Which part of my post is 'not remotely true'? Is it not true that slavery is legalized in the US constitution? Is it not true that the US has greater wealth inequality than China? I'm not sure where the 'yikes' are at, but feel free to actually respond with something of substance and clear it up.

Also, you seem to be missing the point of my posts entirely, as you usually do. It's not a competition of who is better -- or who is more shitty. It's that your ridiculous retorts of 'if u arent just virtue signaling about whatever issue then WHAT ABOUT CHINA' is fucking tedious and obnoxious. Yes, China could absolutely do better in terms of human rights and freedoms and whatever other things. But that doesn't mean that someone who is concerned about the millions of starving Gazans is 'just virtue signaling' and it doesn't take away from the criminality of Israel's ethnic cleansing of Palestine. People who live in the USA have, or at least 'should' have (given that it's a democratic nation) at least some input on what their state does; people of USA have, or at least 'should' have some say in whether the US continues to support Israel's activities in Palestine or not. They do not have such an influence on China's internal policies. The idea of boycotting Chinese goods is cute but in my opinion entirely misplaced. I firmly believe that double standards are a scourge of modern politics, and that any state that wishes to lecture others on how to behave must make sure they aren't themselves guilty of the crimes that they supposedly stand against. Thus, any Americans preaching about human rights abuses in China are, in my opinion, misplacing their efforts. Until the US stops their own forced labor practices, their calls to boycott / sanction / whatever any Chinese (or African, Bangladeshi, whatever) products are, for the lack of a better word, utterly bullshit. It would be like Russia demanding some other state stop their illegal invasion of a neighbor -- laughable, ridiculous, and entirely lacking credibility.

As for why I didn't respond to Kwark's post -- I already explained multiple times in the Palestine thread why I find the whole 'Hamas is to blame for this!' reductionist and missing nuance; just like attributing deaths in WW2 squarely to Nazis is. I don't think it's a particularly interesting discussion to have, though, and I know neither Kwark nor I are going to change our views on the topic so there's not much to discuss.

It's not that I have any expectation of you changing your views on the issues above, either, but I find your tendency to label everyone who disagrees with you as 'just virtue signaling' or 'supporting terrorism' or 'antisemitic' rather obnoxious and it's sometimes fun to watch you try and bullshit your way out of idiotic claims like 'everyone in China is a slave' so there's that.
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain17980 Posts
April 19 2024 07:31 GMT
#83785
On April 19 2024 15:22 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 19 2024 14:28 Acrofales wrote:
We don't have to defend China's shitty business practices to say America has shitty business practices. We don't even have to enter into a pointless comparison about who's worse.

I don't think it's about "who's worse" or "defending China". It's about the absurdity of the US government unabashedly using constitutionally enshrined domestic slave labor while peacocking about their deep concern for the human rights of Uighurs at risk of being forced laborers.

We don't have to speculate why they do that to know that it isn't about opposition to forced labor on principle.

I think that's a fair point. The US government clearly has an ulterior motive in pointing at Uyghur slave labor while encouraging it in their own prisons. That said, there is also a point that just like vegans don't wear leather products as a statement against cruelty to animals, anybody feeling strongly enough can protest slavery by not buying Chinese cotton products and also not eat food processed in US prisons.

That all said and done, there's no point arguing with Jimmy about it. Uyghurs are his favourite whataboutism. Do you think Jimmy wears cotton clothes? I do. So why waste words in that argument?
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42640 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-04-19 07:48:21
April 19 2024 07:47 GMT
#83786
On April 19 2024 16:27 Salazarz wrote:
I find the whole 'Hamas is to blame for this!' reductionist and missing nuance; just like attributing deaths in WW2 squarely to Nazis is.

Wait, sorry, is WW2 not the fault of the Nazis now? What?
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44271 Posts
April 19 2024 09:26 GMT
#83787
First week of Trump's first criminal trial: fell asleep multiple times, intimidated jurors, given gag orders, violated gag orders, and he'll be formally held in criminal contempt next week as a result (warnings -> fines -> maybe eventually jail time, if he continues). Next week we'll likely see more jury tampering and gag order violating, and some witness tampering too. This is going to be a long trial, and it's just 1 of 4.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
Dan HH
Profile Joined July 2012
Romania9118 Posts
April 19 2024 10:51 GMT
#83788
On April 19 2024 16:47 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 19 2024 16:27 Salazarz wrote:
I find the whole 'Hamas is to blame for this!' reductionist and missing nuance; just like attributing deaths in WW2 squarely to Nazis is.

Wait, sorry, is WW2 not the fault of the Nazis now? What?

That's not how I read it. Nazis starting the war doesn't absolve everyone else of every action. Sure, you can say the Katyn massacre wouldn't have happened without Nazis starting the war, but they didn't do the act itself. Might as well blame the first formed hydrogen atom for everyone's actions if we go that route.
Elroi
Profile Joined August 2009
Sweden5595 Posts
April 19 2024 11:05 GMT
#83789
Sure, not all the deaths in WWII were because of the Nazis. Similarly, not all the death in Palestine is because of the murderous terror sect in charge in Gaza - but most of them are. Now we have a situation where we are facing the battle of Berlin, but all the leftists in Europe are waving Nazi flags.
"To all eSports fans, I want to be remembered as a progamer who can make something out of nothing, and someone who always does his best. I think that is the right way of living, and I'm always doing my best to follow that." - Jaedong. /watch?v=jfghAzJqAp0
Jockmcplop
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United Kingdom9639 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-04-19 12:15:23
April 19 2024 11:51 GMT
#83790
edit: This was a pointless post.
RIP Meatloaf <3
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24676 Posts
April 19 2024 13:16 GMT
#83791
On June 22 2023 07:20 micronesia wrote:
I've been following this news item for a while: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/plan-to-discharge-water-into-hudson-river-from-closed-indian-point-nuclear-plant-sparks-uproar (URL is pretty decent summary)

I thought about it when the thread mentioned earlier how academia tends to lean left. For this issue, it's the republicans who care at all about science... or they are just pretending. Probably a combination.

edit: To meet the minimum threshold: Company wants to process and discharge water from commercial nuclear power plant in accordance with applicable regulations as has occurred in the past. Public decides they suddenly have no appetite and NYS attempts to block it using a new law.

To bring up a topic from last year, NY banned Indian Point from routine discharges for silly reasons, and finally Holtec, the company, is suing: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/indian-point-nuclear-lawsuit_n_661eee27e4b046441aa34a50

It will be interesting to see how this gets handled. The new state law is kinda ridiculous.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28664 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-04-19 13:36:10
April 19 2024 13:29 GMT
#83792
On April 19 2024 20:05 Elroi wrote:
Sure, not all the deaths in WWII were because of the Nazis. Similarly, not all the death in Palestine is because of the murderous terror sect in charge in Gaza - but most of them are. Now we have a situation where we are facing the battle of Berlin, but all the leftists in Europe are waving Nazi flags.


No, we have a situation where the leftists are saying don't firebomb Dresden.

Edit: to back this up, here are pictures from pro-palestine marches in Europe. These are just the top from my google search, no selection happening. (well I avoided picking a 3k x 2k pixel image but it was no different from the others)
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]

Note the absense of: [image loading]


I guess to be fair I don't know the meaning of the arab letters in the third picture. But these demonstrations are not 'pro-hamas' and leftists who protest Israel's actions have fairly consistently also avoided giving any support to Hamas. (Obviously not saying those voices do not exist, but they're most certainly not at the vocal forefront of the 'ceasefire now'-movement.)
Moderator
Rudraige
Profile Joined April 2024
2 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-04-19 13:56:44
April 19 2024 13:54 GMT
#83793
Even during WW2, plenty in the allied leadership realized how immoral fire-bombing Dresden and Tokyo was. They either had other reasons to support it anyway, or their opposition wasn't strong enough to affect change. It wasn't a bunch of leftists detached from reality saying it.

If today you think Dresden and Tokyo firebombings were ok 'because it was WW2 and we were stopping the Nazi's', you are morally bankrupt.

BTW, Hamas didn't start this conflict. So comparing it to Germany starting WW2 isn't a good analogy.
Jockmcplop
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United Kingdom9639 Posts
April 19 2024 13:54 GMT
#83794
On April 19 2024 22:29 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 19 2024 20:05 Elroi wrote:
Sure, not all the deaths in WWII were because of the Nazis. Similarly, not all the death in Palestine is because of the murderous terror sect in charge in Gaza - but most of them are. Now we have a situation where we are facing the battle of Berlin, but all the leftists in Europe are waving Nazi flags.


No, we have a situation where the leftists are saying don't firebomb Dresden.

Edit: to back this up, here are pictures from pro-palestine marches in Europe. These are just the top from my google search, no selection happening. (well I avoided picking a 3k x 2k pixel image but it was no different from the others)
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]

Note the absense of: [image loading]


I guess to be fair I don't know the meaning of the arab letters in the third picture. But these demonstrations are not 'pro-hamas' and leftists who protest Israel's actions have fairly consistently also avoided giving any support to Hamas. (Obviously not saying those voices do not exist, but they're most certainly not at the vocal forefront of the 'ceasefire now'-movement.)


Its very beneficial to Israel and its supporters for Palestine and Palestinians in general to be seen as the same thing as Hamas.
If you see any discussion shows on Israel's state owned TV channels they are constantly trying to push this point.
RIP Meatloaf <3
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-04-19 15:17:15
April 19 2024 14:43 GMT
#83795
--- Nuked ---
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42640 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-04-19 15:18:29
April 19 2024 15:06 GMT
#83796
On April 19 2024 22:54 Rudraige wrote:
Even during WW2, plenty in the allied leadership realized how immoral fire-bombing Dresden and Tokyo was. They either had other reasons to support it anyway, or their opposition wasn't strong enough to affect change. It wasn't a bunch of leftists detached from reality saying it.

If today you think Dresden and Tokyo firebombings were ok 'because it was WW2 and we were stopping the Nazi's', you are morally bankrupt.

BTW, Hamas didn't start this conflict. So comparing it to Germany starting WW2 isn't a good analogy.

War is fundamentally criminal. The idea that there is legal and illegal war is a doublethink that we come up with to allow us to reconcile that immorality with our sense of self. Burning a man alive with gasoline, legal, burning the same man with phosphorus, illegal.

But we have to carve out this idea of a kind of special bad war which we don’t do so that we can keep the kind of war we do in a good box. Before someone deliberately takes this out of context, I’m not pro war crime, I’m anti all war and I don’t much see why the man being burned alive would care how we do it.

Hamas absolutely started the current round of the conflict. There may have been an imperfect peace on October 6 but there was a peace. Then the unelected death cult “government” of what is essentially a giant refugee camp for children launched a series of rape and murder terror attacks on civilians in their nuclear armed neighbour. There is no world in which it can be argued that Hamas did so out of a desire to preserve Palestinian lives, nor out of any belief that it would lead to the restoration of a Palestinian state. I do not agree with Israel’s response but Hamas is absolutely to blame for it. It is exactly that, a response.

Israel has been in the unenviable position of having to collaborate with a much weaker openly hostile state for the sake of civilians. Gaza’s vital aid passes through Israeli channels. Gaza’s economy relied upon worker passes to work in Israel. Hamas with one hand pledged death while the other was stretched out begging for aid. Israel ignored these contradictions for years because the fiction that they were not at war with Gaza allowed them to avoid the realities of that war. October 7 killed that fiction. War was upon them, whether they liked it or not.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Rudraige
Profile Joined April 2024
2 Posts
April 19 2024 15:23 GMT
#83797
On April 20 2024 00:06 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 19 2024 22:54 Rudraige wrote:
Even during WW2, plenty in the allied leadership realized how immoral fire-bombing Dresden and Tokyo was. They either had other reasons to support it anyway, or their opposition wasn't strong enough to affect change. It wasn't a bunch of leftists detached from reality saying it.

If today you think Dresden and Tokyo firebombings were ok 'because it was WW2 and we were stopping the Nazi's', you are morally bankrupt.

BTW, Hamas didn't start this conflict. So comparing it to Germany starting WW2 isn't a good analogy.

War is fundamentally criminal. The idea that there is legal and illegal war is a doublethink that we come up with to allow us to reconcile that immorality with our sense of self. Burning a man alive with gasoline, legal, burning the same man with phosphorus, illegal.

But we have to carve out this idea of a kind of special bad war which we don’t do so that we can keep the kind of war we do in a good box.

Hamas absolutely started the current round of the conflict. There may have been an imperfect peace on October 6 but there was a peace. Then the unelected death cult “government” of what is essentially a giant refugee camp for children launched a series of rape and murder terror attacks on civilians in their nuclear armed neighbour. There is no world in which it can be argued that Hamas did so out of a desire to preserve Palestinian lives, nor out of any belief that it would lead to the restoration of a Palestinian state. I do not agree with Israel’s response but Hamas is absolutely to blame for it. It is exactly that, a response.

Israel has been in the unenviable position of having to collaborate with a much weaker openly hostile state for the sake of civilians. Gaza’s vital aid passes through Israeli channels. Gaza’s economy relied upon worker passes to work in Israel. Hamas with one hand pledged death while the other was stretched out begging for aid. Israel ignored these contradictions for years because the fiction that they were not at war with Gaza allowed them to avoid the realities of that war. October 7 killed that fiction. War was upon them, whether they liked it or not.



Honestly, this doesn't make a lot of sense. I agree that just war theory is a bit of a grasp. But in a classical case of a war, there are two countries. And while not in all cases, in many cases one country invades another. The idea that in that case the defending country is engaging in 'crime' by defending themselves is absurd.

As for the Orwell part, I you shouldn't flaunt your lack of understanding of terms like 'doublethink'. Orwell had a very specific meaning for his usages of this word. It is a form if indoctrination that results in holding two contrary positions. I can't even fathom how my comment could be construed as 'doublethink'. So I'd accuse you of a gross crime against Orwell. But I am having a good day, so I'll let you off the hook.

Yes, Hamas started the current round. True. But say Hamas had only killed IDF soldiers on October 7th. Hamas didn't. They massacred civilians. But this massacre of civilians by first Hamas and then the IDF didn't occur in a vacuum. Not sure why the dependence on Israel for their economy matters. There's a lot of things wrong in Israel and in Palestine.

Israel easily could have had different military policies to fight Hamas and kill less civilians. In fact, Israel could have defended itself successfully on October 7th with minimal or even zero Palestinian civilian deaths.
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-04-19 16:14:34
April 19 2024 15:44 GMT
#83798
--- Nuked ---
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23218 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-04-19 17:05:20
April 19 2024 16:55 GMT
#83799
On April 19 2024 16:47 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 19 2024 16:27 Salazarz wrote:
I find the whole 'Hamas is to blame for this!' reductionist and missing nuance; just like attributing deaths in WW2 squarely to Nazis is.

Wait, sorry, is WW2 not the fault of the Nazis now? What?

Thought this was a sarcastic meta joke considering you've made the other side of this point yourself.
Yes, it would place the responsibility for Dresden on the British rather than the Germans. But I don’t see why that’s an issue...

I think you were right when you said:
There’s no option C where you drop the bomb on the wedding and claim responsibility for the bomb killing the terrorist while denying any responsibility for the bomb killing everyone else.

Israel can rationalize or attempt to justify the tens of thousands of civilians they've killed, but they can't escape responsibility by blaming Hamas for "starting it". Nevermind the whole Israel being an illegal occupying force running an apartheid government executing a slow burn ethnic cleansing campaign part, or the "imperfect peace" as you call it.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Sadist
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States7225 Posts
April 19 2024 17:42 GMT
#83800
Do you mean Israel is an illegal occupying force in Gaza or that Israels existance period is an illegal occupying force in former Palestine? Just looking for some clarification.
How do you go from where you are to where you want to be? I think you have to have an enthusiasm for life. You have to have a dream, a goal and you have to be willing to work for it. Jim Valvano
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