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On April 24 2024 09:14 KwarK wrote:
It’d be a lot easier to be pro Palestinian without being anti semitic if Palestine wasn’t currently politically and militarily controlled by anti semites. Right now you have to be against the political embodiment of Palestinians while being pro Palestinian to walk that line.
i’m sure you did not find it that hard to be pro american people during the trump administration. i know our administration changes more frequently than hamas does, and the stakes are worse. so the comparison isn’t equal but the line really isn’t all that thin to walk, is really more the point. a people aren’t defined by their leaders.
i think you claimed a few times trump is a racist, did you identify as a racist as a result? of course not. and nor should you, and nor should those supporting palestinians be identified as anti semites.
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On April 24 2024 12:48 WombaT wrote:
Bit busy with work, did a cursory Google earlier and it was articles featuring quotes of public figures condemning anti-Semitic sentiment with these campus protests, but I’ve yet to see examples of it. I think the one article that may have actually delved into that was unfortunately paywalled. As such, outside of the obvious anti-Semitism isn’t cool stance I cannae have any real informed opinion on this.
I imagine this is one of those occasions where not being in self-exile from Twitter would probably help as it’s definitely good for on-site citizen journalism or self-documentation
Same, usually the videos show up before the condemnations. It raised some red flags for me to see so many condemnations without any displays of said anti-semitism showing up in my feeds.
With hundreds of political figures talking about horrific anti-semitic rhetoric and threats of violence against Jewish students at these protests, it's honestly impressive how little actual anti-semitic material the protesters gave them to work with. I went on a deeper dive and worst I could find was a couple of questionable signs and some dude yelling "go back to Poland" to a counter-protester. You can probably hear worse than that at a pub on a Tuesday evening.
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On April 24 2024 21:14 Dan HH wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2024 12:48 WombaT wrote:
Bit busy with work, did a cursory Google earlier and it was articles featuring quotes of public figures condemning anti-Semitic sentiment with these campus protests, but I’ve yet to see examples of it. I think the one article that may have actually delved into that was unfortunately paywalled. As such, outside of the obvious anti-Semitism isn’t cool stance I cannae have any real informed opinion on this.
I imagine this is one of those occasions where not being in self-exile from Twitter would probably help as it’s definitely good for on-site citizen journalism or self-documentation Same, usually the videos show up before the condemnations. It raised some red flags for me to see so many condemnations without any displays of said anti-semitism showing up in my feeds. With hundreds of political figures talking about horrific anti-semitic rhetoric and threats of violence against Jewish students at these protests, it's honestly impressive how little actual anti-semitic material the protesters gave them to work with. I went on a deeper dive and worst I could find was a couple of questionable signs and some dude yelling "go back to Poland" to a counter-protester. You can probably hear worse than that at a pub on a Tuesday evening.
After seeing how willing people were to repeat over and over again Israel's UNRWA lie, I'm now not believing any accusations of antisemitism that don't come with evidence.
I have a feeling that once people start holding these accusations to those standards, the number of antisemitism accusations that are seen as credible will be reduced 100 fold.
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Northern Ireland24528 Posts
On April 24 2024 21:26 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2024 21:14 Dan HH wrote:On April 24 2024 12:48 WombaT wrote:
Bit busy with work, did a cursory Google earlier and it was articles featuring quotes of public figures condemning anti-Semitic sentiment with these campus protests, but I’ve yet to see examples of it. I think the one article that may have actually delved into that was unfortunately paywalled. As such, outside of the obvious anti-Semitism isn’t cool stance I cannae have any real informed opinion on this.
I imagine this is one of those occasions where not being in self-exile from Twitter would probably help as it’s definitely good for on-site citizen journalism or self-documentation Same, usually the videos show up before the condemnations. It raised some red flags for me to see so many condemnations without any displays of said anti-semitism showing up in my feeds. With hundreds of political figures talking about horrific anti-semitic rhetoric and threats of violence against Jewish students at these protests, it's honestly impressive how little actual anti-semitic material the protesters gave them to work with. I went on a deeper dive and worst I could find was a couple of questionable signs and some dude yelling "go back to Poland" to a counter-protester. You can probably hear worse than that at a pub on a Tuesday evening. After seeing how willing people were to repeat over and over again Israel's UNRWA lie, I'm now not believing any accusations of antisemitism that don't come with evidence. I have a feeling that once people start holding these accusations to those standards, the number of antisemitism accusations that are seen as credible will be reduced 100 fold.
I remain open minded, I did a cursory Google for variants of campus anti-Semitism, a lot leading me back a few years to ADL having pretty damming findings about anti-Semitism in ‘peacetime’ as it were. Which, while both interesting and alarming wasn’t what I was looking for.
And, as I said I’m not on Twitter, don’t really use Reddit and a lot of coal face news disseminates there.
But if these protests are so infested with anti-Semitism it shouldn’t be hard to grab a picture or two and publish it alongside a story. And, as I’ve said twice before if anyone does have such reading material, bring it to the table and I’ll change my tune.
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Northern Ireland24528 Posts
Why thank you Jimmy, my previous post looks somewhat silly as I was typing it out right as you posted that, but I’ll take the egg on the face.
Ratio to people not doing that aside, that seems pretty obviously blatantly anti-Semitic and something that should be disavowed entirely
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i do think reasonable folks can agree hate and terrorism is gross on any side while also having the notion that both palestinians and israelis (and now some americans) should stop having their civilians killed.
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On April 24 2024 21:55 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2024 21:26 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 24 2024 21:14 Dan HH wrote:On April 24 2024 12:48 WombaT wrote:
Bit busy with work, did a cursory Google earlier and it was articles featuring quotes of public figures condemning anti-Semitic sentiment with these campus protests, but I’ve yet to see examples of it. I think the one article that may have actually delved into that was unfortunately paywalled. As such, outside of the obvious anti-Semitism isn’t cool stance I cannae have any real informed opinion on this.
I imagine this is one of those occasions where not being in self-exile from Twitter would probably help as it’s definitely good for on-site citizen journalism or self-documentation Same, usually the videos show up before the condemnations. It raised some red flags for me to see so many condemnations without any displays of said anti-semitism showing up in my feeds. With hundreds of political figures talking about horrific anti-semitic rhetoric and threats of violence against Jewish students at these protests, it's honestly impressive how little actual anti-semitic material the protesters gave them to work with. I went on a deeper dive and worst I could find was a couple of questionable signs and some dude yelling "go back to Poland" to a counter-protester. You can probably hear worse than that at a pub on a Tuesday evening. After seeing how willing people were to repeat over and over again Israel's UNRWA lie, I'm now not believing any accusations of antisemitism that don't come with evidence. I have a feeling that once people start holding these accusations to those standards, the number of antisemitism accusations that are seen as credible will be reduced 100 fold. That guardian article left out much of the story. First there was all the initial photographs of the staff that was fired doing things like carrying body’s and transporting hostages. Then there is all the very interestingly worded lack of “neutrality” in the education and so on, which basically means they were teaching hate. Well it is true that they didn’t provide additional information to the group that they claim is antisemitic it does not mean they didn’t provide additional information to the countries that pulled out. As for the type of hate that is spewing out here is an example, and this does not mean everyone there feels this way or even most. But no one is stopping it and lots are cheering and agreeing. https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/4/22/biden-condemns-blatant-anti-semitism-at-columbia-pro-palestine-protestsVideos of the below quote circulating are what changed Justin from talking about how pro Palestine rallies were not antisemitism but condemning anti semitism Show nested quote + What drew considerable attention were the many demonstrators cheering on as a man chanted, “Long live Oct. 7.” But this, too, is nothing new. “There is only one solution, intefadeh, revolution.” “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.” All of these slogans — and other chants — are constantly repeated and have been for more than six months. https://nationalpost.com/opinion/trudeaus-response-to-ottawa-hate-rally-too-little-too-lateThere has also been firebombing, vandalism, bomb threats and so on.
I'd like to see some of the videos that are being referred to. I'll have a look for them later when I'm not at work.
However, it does sound like these protests have got people going way over the line of what's acceptable.
I'm not sure what's enough to characterize the entire protest as antisemitic, but that's one of those things where people will never agree. Like what % of the protest has to be out of order for the whole thing to be bad?
Again, I have a problem with there only being testimony. That's because of number of lies going around. Take a video. If its signs that are antisemitic people only need to take a photo. Easy.
When it comes to the UNRWA stuff, the photos you are referring to could basically be of anyone. Have you even seen them? Its also not UNRWA, but an independent inquiry that Israel has had 3 months to provide evidence to and has failed to do so.
I have a feeling it was their much lauded AI program that designated these individuals as terrorists. The same system that has led to 200 aid workers being killed.
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On April 24 2024 17:34 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2024 15:18 Sermokala wrote:
Yeah the bigotry isn't the issue it's people pointing out the bigotry that's the issue. You can safely ignore people without power because we don't respect them or what they say but the people we do think have value should know better than call out bad actors. It fully depends on what bigotry is being pointed out to begin with to be fair. Over in the UK there were pro-Palestine protests absolutely chock full of anti-Semitism (and plenty without), but the reporting surrounding them that I read/watched was full of absolutely blatant examples of it. Perhaps I suck at Googling but articles I’ve been looking up about this topic as per the college protests are completely lacking that element. If anyone does have reporting that ticks that box I’d be very much obliged. Having attended pro-Palestine events over here, yeah I’ve seen stuff I’d consider anti-Semitic. A few people out of hundreds but it was there, and I feel it was a collective failure of the attendees, myself included not to challenge that.
What BJ is trying to do is justify maga rallies by exploiting peoples good faith again. It's the shit trump did when he went "both sides have good people" ignoring that one side was chanting "Jews will not replace us".
Yes being a part of a protest doesn't make you a supporter of everything everyone on that side is supporting but bjs "the real bad people are the important people that say anything about the bad actors" is just more bad faith bullshit from him. Dude doesn't even respect you enough to agnowedge the possibility of bigots existing, just like Trump's "I assume some of them might be good people".
You're allowed to call out the bad actors in a group without people expecting that you're generalizing the whole group like that. I'm sure people on January 6th did legitimately want to go to the rally and then didn't go into the Capitol because they realized that's a bad thing. That doesn't excuse the people who did "accidentally into a coup" in some bizarre reverse bad apple argument. You can condem the anti semetic protests while not commenting on the anti Zionist ones. I'm sure there are protestors that don't want Jews to all die, but they need to understand and appreciate that there are some who do and are making their fellow Jewish students a bit uncomfortable.
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On April 24 2024 23:40 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2024 17:34 WombaT wrote:On April 24 2024 15:18 Sermokala wrote:
Yeah the bigotry isn't the issue it's people pointing out the bigotry that's the issue. You can safely ignore people without power because we don't respect them or what they say but the people we do think have value should know better than call out bad actors. It fully depends on what bigotry is being pointed out to begin with to be fair. Over in the UK there were pro-Palestine protests absolutely chock full of anti-Semitism (and plenty without), but the reporting surrounding them that I read/watched was full of absolutely blatant examples of it. Perhaps I suck at Googling but articles I’ve been looking up about this topic as per the college protests are completely lacking that element. If anyone does have reporting that ticks that box I’d be very much obliged. Having attended pro-Palestine events over here, yeah I’ve seen stuff I’d consider anti-Semitic. A few people out of hundreds but it was there, and I feel it was a collective failure of the attendees, myself included not to challenge that. What BJ is trying to do is justify maga rallies by exploiting peoples good faith again. It's the shit trump did when he went "both sides have good people" ignoring that one side was chanting "Jews will not replace us". Yes being a part of a protest doesn't make you a supporter of everything everyone on that side is supporting but bjs "the real bad people are the important people that say anything about the bad actors" is just more bad faith bullshit from him. Dude doesn't even respect you enough to agnowedge the possibility of bigots existing, just like Trump's "I assume some of them might be good people". You're allowed to call out the bad actors in a group without people expecting that you're generalizing the whole group like that. I'm sure people on January 6th did legitimately want to go to the rally and then didn't go into the Capitol because they realized that's a bad thing. That doesn't excuse the people who did "accidentally into a coup" in some bizarre reverse bad apple argument. You can condem the anti semetic protests while not commenting on the anti Zionist ones. I'm sure there are protestors that don't want Jews to all die, but they need to understand and appreciate that there are some who do and are making their fellow Jewish students a bit uncomfortable.
False. Nowhere did I refuse to acknowledge that bigots exist. What I said was that normal people being convinced to dismiss reasonable protests as groups of bigots is more concerning.
Take the Ottawa trucker protest, for example. You were convinced that they were a group of terrorists/racists/misogynists for no other reason than Prime Minister Trudeau told you so. TL User Falling succinctly refuted your false belief by showing that there was basically 1 person in the group that showed up with a confederate flag on the 1st day of the protest before being chased off.
What's worse is that the post he was responding to is where you essentially called this youtuber a Nazi sympathizer by somehow carefully "hiding" all the non-existent swastikas at the protest while he filmed. That guy is just a random Canadian that has been filming events in his cities for many years and had nothing to do with the protestors.
So yeah, I'm more concerned that you, a presumably normal person, will readily label a random innocent youtuber as a nazi sympathizer without any evidence. Simply because you were gullible enough to believe the lies sold to you by a powerful person. It's despicable.
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Northern Ireland24528 Posts
On April 25 2024 00:24 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2024 23:15 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 24 2024 21:55 JimmiC wrote:On April 24 2024 21:26 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 24 2024 21:14 Dan HH wrote:On April 24 2024 12:48 WombaT wrote:
Bit busy with work, did a cursory Google earlier and it was articles featuring quotes of public figures condemning anti-Semitic sentiment with these campus protests, but I’ve yet to see examples of it. I think the one article that may have actually delved into that was unfortunately paywalled. As such, outside of the obvious anti-Semitism isn’t cool stance I cannae have any real informed opinion on this.
I imagine this is one of those occasions where not being in self-exile from Twitter would probably help as it’s definitely good for on-site citizen journalism or self-documentation Same, usually the videos show up before the condemnations. It raised some red flags for me to see so many condemnations without any displays of said anti-semitism showing up in my feeds. With hundreds of political figures talking about horrific anti-semitic rhetoric and threats of violence against Jewish students at these protests, it's honestly impressive how little actual anti-semitic material the protesters gave them to work with. I went on a deeper dive and worst I could find was a couple of questionable signs and some dude yelling "go back to Poland" to a counter-protester. You can probably hear worse than that at a pub on a Tuesday evening. After seeing how willing people were to repeat over and over again Israel's UNRWA lie, I'm now not believing any accusations of antisemitism that don't come with evidence. I have a feeling that once people start holding these accusations to those standards, the number of antisemitism accusations that are seen as credible will be reduced 100 fold. That guardian article left out much of the story. First there was all the initial photographs of the staff that was fired doing things like carrying body’s and transporting hostages. Then there is all the very interestingly worded lack of “neutrality” in the education and so on, which basically means they were teaching hate. Well it is true that they didn’t provide additional information to the group that they claim is antisemitic it does not mean they didn’t provide additional information to the countries that pulled out. As for the type of hate that is spewing out here is an example, and this does not mean everyone there feels this way or even most. But no one is stopping it and lots are cheering and agreeing. https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/4/22/biden-condemns-blatant-anti-semitism-at-columbia-pro-palestine-protestsVideos of the below quote circulating are what changed Justin from talking about how pro Palestine rallies were not antisemitism but condemning anti semitism What drew considerable attention were the many demonstrators cheering on as a man chanted, “Long live Oct. 7.” But this, too, is nothing new. “There is only one solution, intefadeh, revolution.” “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.” All of these slogans — and other chants — are constantly repeated and have been for more than six months. https://nationalpost.com/opinion/trudeaus-response-to-ottawa-hate-rally-too-little-too-lateThere has also been firebombing, vandalism, bomb threats and so on. I'd like to see some of the videos that are being referred to. I'll have a look for them later when I'm not at work. However, it does sound like these protests have got people going way over the line of what's acceptable. I'm not sure what's enough to characterize the entire protest as antisemitic, but that's one of those things where people will never agree. Like what % of the protest has to be out of order for the whole thing to be bad? Again, I have a problem with there only being testimony. That's because of number of lies going around. Take a video. If its signs that are antisemitic people only need to take a photo. Easy. When it comes to the UNRWA stuff, the photos you are referring to could basically be of anyone. Have you even seen them? Its also not UNRWA, but an independent inquiry that Israel has had 3 months to provide evidence to and has failed to do so. I have a feeling it was their much lauded AI program that designated these individuals as terrorists. The same system that has led to 200 aid workers being killed. They were published when the people were fired, I don’t believe any of this is in dispute. What also is not in dispute is that they were teaching hate and a bunch of other non “neutral” actions. They have promised to be neutral in the future and some countries are restarting the aid. The disputed part is that they were rotten to the core and had thousands of Hamas members, to which no evidence has been provided. I have no idea what the tipping point is to name an entire protest racist. I do think it is extremely disappointing that I have yet to see anyone stand up the obvious racists but have seen lots cheering them on. For people who supported them as peaceful it is big time egg on the face and now as politics goes you are going to see the pendulum swing too far the other way. People everywhere, and here love every time antisemitism gets brought up to point out the truth that not ALL criticism of Israel is antisemitic. They however seem to think that this means none is which is absolutely not true. 100% of antisemitic people criticize Israel and hide behind the first sentence. The myth that there is no antisemitic people on the left needs to die and people need to stand up to those both publicly and privately.
In wider society sure, who holds any of these positions that’s a regular in this thread?
I did read the links you put up the other day on the topic, the New Yorker piece (I think it was there) with your bloke from the ADL was a good read, so cheers for those.
Felt he was very good on anti-Semitism, universal principles and stratagems for countering bigotry and prejudice. But almost incoherent at times when it came to the intersection of Jewishness/Zionism/Israel and what strayed into anti-Semitism.
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On April 25 2024 00:24 JimmiC wrote:
People everywhere, and here love every time antisemitism gets brought up to point out the truth that not ALL criticism of Israel is antisemitic. They however seem to think that this means none is which is absolutely not true. 100% of antisemitic people criticize Israel and hide behind the first sentence. The myth that there is no antisemitic people on the left needs to die and people need to stand up to those both publicly and privately.
Who here "seems to think" that antisemitism doesn't exist or that there are "no anti-Semitic people on the left."
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On April 24 2024 11:04 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2024 07:28 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Framing pro-Palestinian protests as anti-Semitic is a bad take for Biden, and I disagree with his interpretation of those protests. I'm with you on that part. I'm still struggling to see how this lays the foundation for fascism though. Republicans/Fascists also frame pro-Palestinian protests as antisemitic and will find the fact that Biden already laid the foundation for that framing in Democrat's minds and provided a program to help fascists crack down on such protests quite useful. Then fascists can point to it being a critique and product/policy that came from Democrats, that "the libs" accepted it when Biden/Democrats did it, and any opposition now is just them being bitter partisans. If Democrats push it, they'll be labeled as sympathizers or terrorists themselves, so they won't, and will call that "pragmatism". Same for the Cop City in ATL, domestic spying, the (still in use) 2001 AUMF, policing the public in NYC using the military, cracking down on "illegals", and the list goes on and on. After Democrats lay down all these foundations for fascism and eventually lose control of them (since they won't win every election in perpetuity) they'll pick up their batons in a vain attempt to avoid being the targets of those policies, institutions, etc. by finding "bipartisan compromises" on where to direct that fascism among the US public and oppressed people around the globe. Which is uncomfortably acceptable to relatively affluent cishet white men. Because to be clear, Democrats have been making these kinds of "compromises" with less overtly fascist Republicans for decades (like consistently increasing police budgets, DOMA, and so on). Which brings us back to the bipartisan framing of pro-Palestinian actions as "antisemitic protests" that is already aligning Democrats and Republicans around cracking down on these purportedly "antisemitic protests" in a tiny, comparably placid, preview of what is to come if they aren't stopped (organized civil disobedience, like Biden is joining Republicans to crack down on, will be required) before then. Hopefully that helps you understand my point?
I think so; thank you for the elaboration!
I think different people might disagree on whether or not Biden supporters truly "accepted" the framing of pro-Palestine as anti-Semitic, but I believe I see your point.
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On April 25 2024 08:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2024 11:04 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 24 2024 07:28 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Framing pro-Palestinian protests as anti-Semitic is a bad take for Biden, and I disagree with his interpretation of those protests. I'm with you on that part. I'm still struggling to see how this lays the foundation for fascism though. Republicans/Fascists also frame pro-Palestinian protests as antisemitic and will find the fact that Biden already laid the foundation for that framing in Democrat's minds and provided a program to help fascists crack down on such protests quite useful. Then fascists can point to it being a critique and product/policy that came from Democrats, that "the libs" accepted it when Biden/Democrats did it, and any opposition now is just them being bitter partisans. If Democrats push it, they'll be labeled as sympathizers or terrorists themselves, so they won't, and will call that "pragmatism". Same for the Cop City in ATL, domestic spying, the (still in use) 2001 AUMF, policing the public in NYC using the military, cracking down on "illegals", and the list goes on and on. After Democrats lay down all these foundations for fascism and eventually lose control of them (since they won't win every election in perpetuity) they'll pick up their batons in a vain attempt to avoid being the targets of those policies, institutions, etc. by finding "bipartisan compromises" on where to direct that fascism among the US public and oppressed people around the globe. Which is uncomfortably acceptable to relatively affluent cishet white men. Because to be clear, Democrats have been making these kinds of "compromises" with less overtly fascist Republicans for decades (like consistently increasing police budgets, DOMA, and so on). Which brings us back to the bipartisan framing of pro-Palestinian actions as "antisemitic protests" that is already aligning Democrats and Republicans around cracking down on these purportedly "antisemitic protests" in a tiny, comparably placid, preview of what is to come if they aren't stopped (organized civil disobedience, like Biden is joining Republicans to crack down on, will be required) before then. Hopefully that helps you understand my point? I think so; thank you for the elaboration! I think different people might disagree on whether or not Biden supporters truly "accepted" the framing of pro-Palestine as anti-Semitic, but I believe I see your point.
My pleasure. I'm sure they would. There are clearly a lot of Democrats/Biden supporters that have though.
Fetterman (who was supposed to be an ostensible progressive champion saving the senate for Democrats in 2022) is probably a good example of the impracticality of the sort of nuance you're attempting to carve out for an unknown reason.
“I fully agree with the White House — these ‘protests’ are antisemitic, unconscionable, and dangerous. Add some tiki torches and it’s Charlottesville for these Jewish students,” Fetterman wrote in a statement Sunday night.
thehill.com
People could probably use a refresher of what "Charlottesville" means in this context:
The Unite the Right rally was a white supremacist[4][5][6][7] rally that took place in Charlottesville, Virginia, from August 11 to 12, 2017.[8][9][10] Marchers included members of the alt-right,[11] neo-Confederates,[12] neo-fascists,[13] white nationalists,[14] neo-Nazis,[15] Klansmen,[16] and far-right militias.[17] Some groups chanted racist and antisemitic slogans and carried weapons, Nazi and neo-Nazi symbols, the Valknut, Confederate battle flags, Deus vult crosses, flags, and other symbols of various past and present antisemitic and anti-Islamic groups.[23] The organizers' stated goals included the unification of the American white nationalist movement[11] and opposing the proposed removal of the statue of General Robert E. Lee from Charlottesville's former Lee Park.[21][24]
The rally occurred amid the controversy which was generated by the removal of Confederate monuments by local governments following the Charleston church shooting in 2015, in which Dylann Roof, a white supremacist, shot and killed nine members of a black church, including the minister (a state senator), and wounded another member of the church.
At around 1:45 p.m., self-identified white supremacist James Alex Fields Jr. deliberately rammed his car into a crowd of counter-protesters about 1⁄2 mile (800 m) away from the rally site, killing Heather Heyer and injuring 35 people. en.wikipedia.org
So yeah, just need some tiki torches and they're the same thing because horseshoes or something. /s
Then you have the fascists push it a little further:
Mr. Trump said: “Joe Biden would say, constantly, that he ran because of Charlottesville,” he wrote of the 2020 election. “Well, if that’s the case, he’s done a really terrible job because Charlottesville is like a ‘peanut’ compared to the riots and anti-Israel protests that are happening all over our Country, RIGHT NOW.”
www.nytimes.com
Do you recognize how this is one of many ways Democrats are laying the foundations for fascism regardless of how 2024 turns out now?
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Trump saying something is now somehow making the Democrats go facist?
Do you even read what kind of bs you write?
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On April 25 2024 15:09 Velr wrote:
Trump saying something is now somehow making the Democrats go facist?
Do you even read what kind of bs you write?
The problem isn't Trump saying something, it's a democrat senator comparing these protests to Charlottesville (which is pretty fucking bad in itself), and in doing so, empowering Trump's bullshit.
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Northern Ireland24528 Posts
On April 25 2024 05:57 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2024 00:24 JimmiC wrote:
People everywhere, and here love every time antisemitism gets brought up to point out the truth that not ALL criticism of Israel is antisemitic. They however seem to think that this means none is which is absolutely not true. 100% of antisemitic people criticize Israel and hide behind the first sentence. The myth that there is no antisemitic people on the left needs to die and people need to stand up to those both publicly and privately.
Who here "seems to think" that antisemitism doesn't exist or that there are "no anti-Semitic people on the left."
Answers on a postcard I guess.
I’d estimate it’s been maybe 15+ years since I had a pretty keen interest in current affairs and a vaguely developed brain, and this conflation has always been a stick to beat (mostly) left-wing opposition to Israeli policy with.
I can’t think of a single other foreign policy/humanitarian issue where this is so often the case.
Bit of a personal bugbear of mine, I’m not a massive fan of discussions where one has to add caveats every second sentence, so that’s not ideal. Secondly it deflects from the topic, and thirdly and also rather importantly - I don’t think it alleviates anti-Semitism at all, if anything it actually makes the problem worse.
I’m not gonna beat around the bush, I’ll still consider a damn sizeable chunk of right wing folks as bigots, because they demonstrate it so often. But for those who genuinely aren’t but get beaten with that stick, I imagine it’s a similar feeling.
As I have said on many an occasion here, at least based on my corner of existence, it is definitely getting worse, that is a worrying development and one we need to collectively do better on. And it’s not solely the preserve of Hitler adjacent folk either.
I’ll do my best to call it out when I see it, or alternatively just fuck off from a community if it, and other forms of bigotry are too prevalent to rail against. On the flip side I’m quite proud to be part of a community over here where it’s really not a thing, surely that’s summat to celebrate no?
I think we also have a pretty fundamental problem with looking at the topic because to do so requires certain uncomfortable conversations that frankly I don’t think liberals want to get into. We saw some pretty heinous outright celebratory shit around 7/7 in my country, and elsewhere and it wasn’t from left wing demonstrators let’s put it that way.
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|
|
|
EPT
