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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 418

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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!

NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.

Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.


If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
July 05 2018 19:11 GMT
#8341
The US dairy industry is already subsidized to a pretty insane degree, IIRC.

Will be interesting to see what happens in the stock market tomorrow. I think there's a piece of the market that is in disbelief that this shit is actually going to happen.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15478 Posts
July 05 2018 19:13 GMT
#8342
On July 06 2018 04:11 ticklishmusic wrote:
The US dairy industry is already subsidized to a pretty insane degree, IIRC.

Will be interesting to see what happens in the stock market tomorrow. I think there's a piece of the market that is in disbelief that this shit is actually going to happen.


Putting our dairy industry out of business is a good way to reduce the # of people sucking on that federal handout teet. Our approach to dairy farming is basically just welfare.
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain17930 Posts
July 05 2018 19:15 GMT
#8343
On July 06 2018 04:01 Plansix wrote:
25% of milk sales is going to put a lot of dairy farmers out of business forever and little will take its place.

I'm sure rural America is thrilled.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21540 Posts
July 05 2018 19:18 GMT
#8344
On July 06 2018 04:13 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 06 2018 04:11 ticklishmusic wrote:
The US dairy industry is already subsidized to a pretty insane degree, IIRC.

Will be interesting to see what happens in the stock market tomorrow. I think there's a piece of the market that is in disbelief that this shit is actually going to happen.


Putting our dairy industry out of business is a good way to reduce the # of people sucking on that federal handout teet. Our approach to dairy farming is basically just welfare.
Really? Cause I'm sure those newly unemployed people are going to be sucking on some unemployment benefits.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
On_Slaught
Profile Joined August 2008
United States12190 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-07-05 19:19:27
July 05 2018 19:19 GMT
#8345
The real problem is that Trump wont want to look weak and back down, even things are going horrible. I'm worried the only way this ends is Congress stepping in. But ofc with cowards in control of it, that seems unlikely.
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-07-05 19:24:05
July 05 2018 19:23 GMT
#8346
It'll be interesting to see if Trump will veto anything Congress does or takes it as a more-graceful-than-nothing way out. I can't imagine getting veto-proof majorities in the House and Senate to deal with it (especially the House since they're all up for reelection), but I guess I've been surprised by Congress before...
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
July 05 2018 19:26 GMT
#8347
On July 06 2018 04:13 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 06 2018 04:11 ticklishmusic wrote:
The US dairy industry is already subsidized to a pretty insane degree, IIRC.

Will be interesting to see what happens in the stock market tomorrow. I think there's a piece of the market that is in disbelief that this shit is actually going to happen.


Putting our dairy industry out of business is a good way to reduce the # of people sucking on that federal handout teet. Our approach to dairy farming is basically just welfare.


I think it was in catch 22, but there was an anecdote in some book about a farmer who grew alfalfa, and then the government paid him to not grow alfalfa to keep supply low/ price higher, and he took the profits to buy some more land to *not* grow alfalfa on. and so it continued. idk, i was just reminded of that.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 05 2018 19:26 GMT
#8348


An interesting report directly linking the violence in Charlottesville to active members of the US military and military contractors with security clearance. And apparently participating in a group promoting racial violence won’t get your clearance revoked. The indifference to the growing threat of violence and overt white nationalism is down right terrifying.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
July 05 2018 19:28 GMT
#8349
The most realistic outcome is we are going to see acres, and acres of unharvested crops due to labor shortages, and no market demand for them.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 05 2018 19:34 GMT
#8350
On July 06 2018 04:13 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 06 2018 04:11 ticklishmusic wrote:
The US dairy industry is already subsidized to a pretty insane degree, IIRC.

Will be interesting to see what happens in the stock market tomorrow. I think there's a piece of the market that is in disbelief that this shit is actually going to happen.


Putting our dairy industry out of business is a good way to reduce the # of people sucking on that federal handout teet. Our approach to dairy farming is basically just welfare.

You need to rethink how you view farming and food production. We need milk and cream for almost all cooking that matters. And baking. It has never been a profitable industry to be in, but a necessary one for our nation to function and feed itself.

And I grew up near and had friends who worked on a local dairy farm growing. Calling the amount of work dairy farmers put in “basically welfare” as if they were lazy or mooching is some real ignorant shit. Sorry they are not adding “value” to the American economy like the tech industry making 20000 smart appliances to spy on us and designing social media apps based on addiction research. They just make baking cakes possible.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-07-05 19:35:59
July 05 2018 19:34 GMT
#8351
On July 06 2018 04:26 ticklishmusic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 06 2018 04:13 Mohdoo wrote:
On July 06 2018 04:11 ticklishmusic wrote:
The US dairy industry is already subsidized to a pretty insane degree, IIRC.

Will be interesting to see what happens in the stock market tomorrow. I think there's a piece of the market that is in disbelief that this shit is actually going to happen.


Putting our dairy industry out of business is a good way to reduce the # of people sucking on that federal handout teet. Our approach to dairy farming is basically just welfare.


I think it was in catch 22, but there was an anecdote in some book about a farmer who grew alfalfa, and then the government paid him to not grow alfalfa to keep supply low/ price higher, and he took the profits to buy some more land to *not* grow alfalfa on. and so it continued. idk, i was just reminded of that.


Yep, that's how Major Major Major Major's father made his fortune.

His specialty was alfalfa, and he made a good thing out of not growing any. The government paid him well for every bushel of alfalfa he did not grow. The more alfalfa he did not grow, the more money the government gave him, and he spent every penny he didn't earn on new land to increase the amount of alfalfa he did not produce. Major Major's father worked without rest at not growing alfalfa. On long winter evenings he remained indoors and did not mend harness, and he sprang out of bed at the crack of noon every day just to make certain that the chores would not be done. He invested in land wisely and soon was not growing more alfalfa than any other man in the county. Neighbours sought him out for advice on all subjects, for he had made much money and was therefore wise. “As ye sow, so shall ye reap,” he counselled one and all, and everyone said “Amen.”


Not to be confused with the war profiteer Milo who was hired to run missions against his own military base by the German government.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-07-05 19:41:05
July 05 2018 19:40 GMT
#8352
Scott Pruitt is gone.

"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21540 Posts
July 05 2018 19:44 GMT
#8353
On July 06 2018 04:34 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 06 2018 04:13 Mohdoo wrote:
On July 06 2018 04:11 ticklishmusic wrote:
The US dairy industry is already subsidized to a pretty insane degree, IIRC.

Will be interesting to see what happens in the stock market tomorrow. I think there's a piece of the market that is in disbelief that this shit is actually going to happen.


Putting our dairy industry out of business is a good way to reduce the # of people sucking on that federal handout teet. Our approach to dairy farming is basically just welfare.

You need to rethink how you view farming and food production. We need milk and cream for almost all cooking that matters. And baking. It has never been a profitable industry to be in, but a necessary one for our nation to function and feed itself.

And I grew up near and had friends who worked on a local dairy farm growing. Calling the amount of work dairy farmers put in “basically welfare” as if they were lazy or mooching is some real ignorant shit. Sorry they are not adding “value” to the American economy like the tech industry making 20000 smart appliances to spy on us and designing social media apps based on addiction research. They just make baking cakes possible.
A good food production is important for a nation and that's why its often subsidizes throughout the world.
But you only need so much. And if you produce way more then you need it's not terrible if some of those businesses close down until your back to a point where you produce enough, without flushing gallons of milk down the drain because no one wants any more of it.
To problem is that when you produce to much the price drops heavily and you will likely lose more dairy farms then you had in surplus, putting you back down at a production deficit. So you subsidize unneeded businesses and accept the situation.

Not that I agree with Mohdoo's statement. Just offering my view on the dynamic.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21540 Posts
July 05 2018 19:46 GMT
#8354
On July 06 2018 04:40 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Scott Pruitt is gone.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1014956573095915520
I'm sure they will find someone else to run it into the ground, since their objective hasn't changed. They just need a fresh person to continue until his position becomes untenable aswell, ect.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
July 05 2018 19:47 GMT
#8355
Maybe we should go back to the way agriculture production was before Truman started reforms where farmers just grew what was most in demand and not pay farmers not to grow certain crops.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
On_Slaught
Profile Joined August 2008
United States12190 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-07-05 19:55:22
July 05 2018 19:53 GMT
#8356
Scott Pruitt was a special sort of corrupt. It is unlikely his replacement will be able to match his unique combination of evilness, outgoingness, industry connections, and competence at deregulating. Him leaving is a great thing.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 05 2018 19:53 GMT
#8357
On July 06 2018 04:44 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 06 2018 04:34 Plansix wrote:
On July 06 2018 04:13 Mohdoo wrote:
On July 06 2018 04:11 ticklishmusic wrote:
The US dairy industry is already subsidized to a pretty insane degree, IIRC.

Will be interesting to see what happens in the stock market tomorrow. I think there's a piece of the market that is in disbelief that this shit is actually going to happen.


Putting our dairy industry out of business is a good way to reduce the # of people sucking on that federal handout teet. Our approach to dairy farming is basically just welfare.

You need to rethink how you view farming and food production. We need milk and cream for almost all cooking that matters. And baking. It has never been a profitable industry to be in, but a necessary one for our nation to function and feed itself.

And I grew up near and had friends who worked on a local dairy farm growing. Calling the amount of work dairy farmers put in “basically welfare” as if they were lazy or mooching is some real ignorant shit. Sorry they are not adding “value” to the American economy like the tech industry making 20000 smart appliances to spy on us and designing social media apps based on addiction research. They just make baking cakes possible.
A good food production is important for a nation and that's why its often subsidizes throughout the world.
But you only need so much. And if you produce way more then you need it's not terrible if some of those businesses close down until your back to a point where you produce enough, without flushing gallons of milk down the drain because no one wants any more of it.
To problem is that when you produce to much the price drops heavily and you will likely lose more dairy farms then you had in surplus, putting you back down at a production deficit. So you subsidize unneeded businesses and accept the situation.

Not that I agree with Mohdoo's statement. Just offering my view on the dynamic.

Maybe having them function on in a free market where they can all put each other out of business all the time is a bad idea?

But since we are not going to fix the problem in a productive fashion, selling 25% of milk production to Mexico isn’t like this irresponsible thing since milk is pretty cheap in the US already. And dairy farmers already have a super high suicide rate and failure rate anyways. So adding to that isn’t a great idea.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
On_Slaught
Profile Joined August 2008
United States12190 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-07-05 19:55:32
July 05 2018 19:54 GMT
#8358
Edit: oops, wrong button.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
July 05 2018 20:02 GMT
#8359
MAGA. No jobs will be lost we'll simply run the factories without electricity, then water and so on. This is ludicrous. Also GM is now on record saying they may have to cut jobs with more and more trade tariffs. Kind of ironic that voters on both sides of the isle want the German way of economics. Worker rights, Union wages and so on. yet neoliberalism has crippled this country's way of life.

+ Show Spoiler +
With tariffs driving up the price of stainless steel, the precision-part manufacturer Accu-Swiss in Oakdale, Calif., came up with a plan to save money: turn off the lights but keep the machines on.

“We are being hurt because of the cost increase,” said Sohel Sareshwala, the company’s owner and president. To squeeze more output from existing equipment, he is “running the machines in a lights-out operation.” After his regular 10-person staff leaves for the day at 6 p.m., Mr. Sareshwala said, the plant is experimenting with slowing down the machines and letting them run unattended for four more hours.

As every business school student learns, developing plans to deal with disruptions — from a hurricane to a rail strike — is as much a part of managing a company as billing or making payroll. The gathering storm of trade sanctions and retaliatory moves is forcing executives to put those lessons to use.

The 25 percent tariff on steel and 10 percent tariff on aluminum that President Trump first threatened in March and put into effect in June precipitated a string of retaliatory tariffs from trading partners like China, Germany, Mexico and Canada. On Friday, the administration is placing tariffs on $34 billion of Chinese products, many of them used in American manufacturing, and China has threatened to respond with sanctions of its own.

Mr. Trump has said that in the long run, the tariffs will protect jobs in the steel and aluminum industries, as well as safeguard national security. But the escalating trade war is forcing importers and exporters across the country, including apple growers in Washington, hog farmers in Minnesota and Harley-Davidson in Wisconsin, to depart from business as usual — either on the fly or according to a contingency blueprint.

Last week, the potential impact on American companies was thrust into sharp relief when General Motors warned that a new wave of tariffs under consideration by the administration could lead to “less investment, fewer jobs and lower wages” at G.M. While the company has not drafted specific contingency plans for job reductions, a spokeswoman said, such a move is “something that could happen.”

For Mr. Sareshwala at Accu-Swiss, Plan B is already the new normal.

In his 19 years at the company, which produces parts for devices and machines used in the biomedical, food and semiconductor industries, he has dealt with a few unanticipated events, from the dot-com bust to the Great Recession. But until recently, it probably would have made more sense for him to plan for an earthquake at his San Joaquin Valley plant than a hefty tariff on his primary raw material.

“It is very ironic to prepare for this kind of contingency in the United States,” he said.

Accu-Swiss doesn’t use imported steel, but the tariffs have ratcheted up the demand for domestic steel, making it harder to find and afford. So far, Mr. Sareshwala said, his priority is delivering orders on time, regardless of the cost.

“I use a lot of stainless steel, so I’m still trying to gobble up every bit of material that I can and not worry about the dollars and cents,” he said. That strategy may wipe out his single-digit profit margin or even bring on a loss, he said, but in the short term he would rather lose money than customers.

At the plant, in addition to the lights-out operation, Mr. Sareshwala has begun to stagger the starts of daytime shifts to stretch out the time in which operators are tending the machines.

Since the 2016 election, the president’s declarations about his readiness to wage a trade war have prompted heavy users of steel — foreign and domestic — to look into alternative supply lines. But some businesses said their contingency plans had not anticipated the extent of the shortages and rapidity of price increases, which started months ago.

“In a few days, domestic companies raised prices on stainless steel anywhere from 15 to 25 percent,” said Joe Carlson, president of Lakeside Manufacturing, a medical and food service equipment maker in Milwaukee with 175 employees. He is also president of the North American Association of Food Equipment Manufacturers, which represents more than 550 companies.

“I’ve been in this business 24 years, and I’ve seen price increases and tariffs,” Mr. Carlson said, “but haven’t seen this combination before.”

Edward Farrer, director of purchasing at Principal Manufacturing in Broadview, Ill., which produces automobile parts, has felt the same effect. His company, which employs 330 people and has $50 million in annual sales, is a purchaser of imported steel and has not been able to find a domestic alternative.

Even if one emerges, he said, “the tariffs have been a springboard for domestic producers to increase their price” — and those higher costs will put American companies like his at a disadvantage compared with foreign manufacturers. Moreover, he said, any change in Principal’s suppliers would require customer approval, an exhaustive process that would cause significant delays.

Like thousands of others, his company has filed with the federal government for an exclusion from the tariffs, but has not yet heard back.

Principal — whose customers include automotive suppliers and other major companies in the United States and abroad — accounts for contingencies like unexpected price swings in its contracts. “We have agreement for the ups and downs of markets,” Mr. Farrer said, “but the increases are so significant now, customers are pushing back. Some discussions are contentious.”

“Delivery dates are not changing, and product must be on time,” he said. “We are caught in the middle between politics, customers and steel producers.”

John Ferriola, president of Nucor, the largest American steel maker, said growing demand — driven by tax cuts and a rollback in federal regulation — was primarily responsible for the price increases.

“Tariffs will result in some long-term price increases as excess, artificially low-cost foreign material is taken out of the market,” he said, “but as steel buyers adjust to new supply chains and new domestic production comes online, we expect prices will normalize.”

Several manufacturers, however, said they were skeptical that domestic steel and aluminum makers had the capacity to meet the increased demand any time soon, and worried that prices would continue to rise — and even threaten jobs at their own companies. Mr. Farrer has halted all hiring, leaving about 30 positions unfilled, and has canceled, at least for now, a major capital purchase, two large machine tools.

Mark Vaughn has similarly put a brake on hiring at his metal stamping plant in Nashville. As the year started, he planned to add five or six new machinists in $28-an-hour jobs. His tax bill was going down, he had a fat backlog of orders, and one of his biggest clients, the Swedish appliance manufacturer Electrolux, was planning to invest $250 million to modernize its nearby Springfield plant.

But when the administration dangled the prospect of tariffs, Electrolux announced that it was postponing the upgrade, citing concerns about rising steel prices. “This is a message to the administration,” the company said in a statement.

Vaughn Manufacturing’s backlog has dwindled, and Mr. Vaughn said he would probably have to revise price quotes he promised six months ago. Instead of expanding his work force, which he described as “very highly skilled,” he is thinking of cutting five to 10 jobs out of his 50-person staff.

The first rule in his contingency plan, he said, is to “take care of what you got and not overexpand.”

“We were probably in line for $2 million to $3 million worth of work” making cooktops for Electrolux, he explained. And as for the new tax cuts, he pointed out, “Tariffs are a tax, so they took that advantage right back out of there.”

In Milwaukee, Mr. Carlson of Lakeside Manufacturing said he had contracts to get steel through the summer, but was worried about the fall. All the steel distributors, including his own, want to take care of their biggest customers first, he said. At the same time, the largest companies are hoarding as much steel as they can, making it tougher for smaller businesses to find alternatives.

Before the tariff threats, steel orders took six to eight weeks. Once the announcement was made in March, the wait time grew to eight to 12 weeks. “Now we don’t know when we’re going to get our orders filled,” Mr. Carlson said. “We’re hand-to-mouth.”


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15478 Posts
July 05 2018 20:10 GMT
#8360
On July 06 2018 04:34 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 06 2018 04:13 Mohdoo wrote:
On July 06 2018 04:11 ticklishmusic wrote:
The US dairy industry is already subsidized to a pretty insane degree, IIRC.

Will be interesting to see what happens in the stock market tomorrow. I think there's a piece of the market that is in disbelief that this shit is actually going to happen.


Putting our dairy industry out of business is a good way to reduce the # of people sucking on that federal handout teet. Our approach to dairy farming is basically just welfare.

You need to rethink how you view farming and food production. We need milk and cream for almost all cooking that matters. And baking. It has never been a profitable industry to be in, but a necessary one for our nation to function and feed itself.

And I grew up near and had friends who worked on a local dairy farm growing. Calling the amount of work dairy farmers put in “basically welfare” as if they were lazy or mooching is some real ignorant shit. Sorry they are not adding “value” to the American economy like the tech industry making 20000 smart appliances to spy on us and designing social media apps based on addiction research. They just make baking cakes possible.


I don't see "basically welfare" as a bad thing. I completely agree with the way we handle the dairy industry in our country. But when republicans are always looking for ways to reduce dependence on federal teet, so long as the question of "is this a good program though?" doesn't matter, killing off the dairy industry is a great way to reduce the number of dollars going towards entitlement programs.
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