US Politics Mega-thread - Page 416

AILSA CHANG, HOST:

Naturalization ceremonies carry with them a sense of permanence. They signify an end to an often long immigration process. But last month, U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services started a task force to review cases where people may have lied in order to get citizenship. And now the administration says it could be denaturalizing potentially a few thousand people. To understand what that means and to put it in context, we're joined by Mae Ngai. She's a professor of history at Columbia University.

Welcome.

MAE NGAI: Thank you for having me.

CHANG: Is what the Trump administration doing here new? I mean, is there historical precedent for devoting resources like this to trying to detect citizenship fraud?

NGAI: The last time the federal government tried to denaturalize citizens was during the McCarthy period. And they went after people who they were accusing of being Communists who were naturalized citizens. And they took away their citizenship and deported them. It wasn't that many people because, actually, it's not that easy to do. But that was the last time that there was a concerted effort. So it's been...

CHANG: Wow.

NGAI: ...Almost 75 years...

CHANG: Wow.

NGAI: ...Since the government has tried to do it. And I think most people would say that the Red Scare, or the McCarthy period, was not the nation's proudest moment.

CHANG: Well, just to be clear - are you saying that in administrations since the McCarthy era, on a case by case basis when it comes up, government officials will address it but there isn't sort of a proactive effort to ferret out naturalization fraud?

NGAI: Exactly. Usually, naturalization cases come up when a charge is made. So somebody might come forward and accuse a naturalized citizen of having lied on their application. And then the government will follow up and do an investigation. And if there's evidence of that, they will bring a charge. So they do not proactively go out to ferret out, so to speak, naturalization fraud.

CHANG: So that is how this effort is quite different from decades past.

NGAI: That's right.

CHANG: What kind of fraud are we talking about in, say, this case, this new task force which is looking for cases of fraud in applications for citizenship? What kind of lies are they saying might have occurred in these applications?

NGAI: Well, typically, you would be concerned about somebody who had criminal convictions, and they were not honest about it on their application. There are also cases where you could be stripped of your citizenship if you fail to disclose that you are a member of a proscribed organization like the Nazi party or al-Qaida. You could be denaturalized if you had a dishonorable discharge from the military. So these are really the only grounds for denaturalizing somebody.

CHANG: And when someone is accused of committing fraud while they're trying to become a citizen, what does it take to actually strip them of citizenship? What is the process?

NGAI: Well, this is another important issue today because it is not an immigration issue. This is an issue of the district courts. It's the district courts that grant citizenship, that grant naturalization. And it's only the district courts that can take it away. So a charge has to be brought by a U.S. attorney. Now, the Trump administration is being very vague about this. But if they are going to hand this over to Department of Homeland Security or ICE, which is what some of the murmurings indicate, then that would be a violation of our own established procedures, and people would not be getting their day in court.

CHANG: And if the government is successful at proving that there was fraud and stripping someone of citizenship, then what happens to that person? Are they immediately deported back to their home country?

NGAI: Yes, immediately.

CHANG: Are there statistics that measure how often fraud happens in the naturalization system?

NGAI: It is rare. Compared to the numbers of people who are naturalized every year, it is a relatively small number.

CHANG: But the Trump administration says they think they could potentially be deporting thousands of people. Thousands of people could have been committing naturalization fraud. Are those numbers - you don't trust those numbers?

NGAI: This idea that there might even be a couple of thousand people who lied on their applications is a very small number compared to the number of naturalized citizens we have in this country. We have millions of them. And a third of the people in this country who are foreign born are naturalized citizens.

CHANG: That's Mae Ngai of Columbia University.

Thank you for joining us.

NGAI: Thank you for having me.

On July 05 2018 23:36 Plansix wrote:
https://twitter.com/abogada_laura/status/1014214985218547712

I have been seeing a steady flow of information from attorneys trying to represent the children detained by ICE. It is a lot of stories like this one or worse. We have no idea what is going on in these camps and I have doubts have DHS is invested in assuring these people receive proper due process.

On July 05 2018 23:50 ticklishmusic wrote:


didn't we have like... a lot of court cases about the right to counsel/ representation? how is this not blatantly illegal? we're treating these kids worse than terrorists/ POW's here.

On July 06 2018 00:00 Plansix wrote:

The last time I checked, illegal immigrants are not entitled to counsel in the traditional sense. They can have one, but can also waive that right. These attorneys are working for free, trying to help clients who want it. DHS is just lying about the children refusing counsel, because it leads to faster deportation. Because no matter how much press this gets, we won’t stop them all. And no one will punish DHS for breaking the rules, because no one cares about illegal immigrants enough to bring the hammer down on these “noble patriots doing a hard job in an impossible situation.”

On July 06 2018 00:09 ticklishmusic wrote:


aren't they still afforded fifth/ sixth amendment rights?

On July 06 2018 00:09 ticklishmusic wrote:


aren't they still afforded fifth/ sixth amendment rights?

On July 06 2018 00:14 Gorsameth wrote:
Sure, they have the right not to answer. But can you expect a 6y old to even know what it means, let alone follow it?

That's the trick. You tell them their rights but they are to young/inexperienced to know what those rights mean and so you can do pretty much anything you want.

Which is why, imo, it should be required for an adult representative to always be present when interviewing/questioning minors. Sadly this is not the case.

On July 06 2018 00:14 Gorsameth wrote:
Sure, they have the right not to answer. But can you expect a 6y old to even know what it means, let alone follow it?

That's the trick. You tell them their rights but they are to young/inexperienced to know what those rights mean and so you can do pretty much anything you want.

Which is why, imo, it should be required for an adult representative to always be present when interviewing/questioning minors. Sadly this is not the case.

On July 06 2018 00:56 iamthedave wrote:


Woah, Nelly. You sound almost like you want to treat them like human beings there. Are you sure you want to go down that dark and dangerous alley?

Side note: As I understand it, they've explicitly decided to start properly criminalising illegal entry across the border. So shouldn't some of these be criminal proceedings?

On July 05 2018 23:36 Plansix wrote:
https://twitter.com/abogada_laura/status/1014214985218547712

I have been seeing a steady flow of information from attorneys trying to represent the children detained by ICE. It is a lot of stories like this one or worse. We have no idea what is going on in these camps and I have doubts have DHS is invested in assuring these people receive proper due process.

Edit:

And now we have a taskforce to take citizenship away from people.

Source:



Now at face value this seems like something that is reasonable. That someone who lied on their documents should have their case reviewed. But this administration has been unclear what guidelines they will be using for that process. What is a lie as opposed to a simple error? How serious does the lie is sufficient to have your case review?

And this task force is going to be looking for people lied. They are going to go in with a set number of people they believe lied and then try to denaturalize the ones they “find.” This is some McCarthy era bullshit, but this time motivated by racism.

Caught In Tariff War, U.S. Distillers Fear Losing Out On Global Whiskey Boom

+ Show Spoiler +

Amir Peay is one of the potential victims. He just opened a new distillery with a historical theme. He bought and refurbished a building in Lexington that housed the distillery that produced James E. Pepper 1776 — once among the most popular whiskey brands in America, with roots that go back to the American Revolution.

Revitalizing this brand and distillery is a 10-year project that Peay funded with his own life savings. He's already producing nearly 30,000 cases of whiskey a year, using his distillery and excess capacity at other distilleries. About 10 percent of Peay's revenues already come from exports.

"We had been eyeballing Europe as the most logical place to invest and to grow and expand the brand," he says.

In fact, he's hired a person to manage the expansion and has designed new bottles and labels. But new European tariffs, along with those in Canada and Mexico, could sabotage his growth strategy.

"I just had a meeting this morning with our Canadian importers, who were here at the distillery, and we're all just scratching our heads, because who in their right mind a few years ago would have envisioned us in a trade war with Canada and the European Union, our closest allies and partners," Peay says.

He estimates the 25 percent EU tariff will force him to raise the shelf price of his 1776 whiskey from 35 euros to 45 euros (from about $41 to $52). He fears European customers will look for something else to drink.

On July 06 2018 01:53 hunts wrote:


Pardon me if I'm wrong here, but wasn't there something about melania lying on her documents when she got her citizenship?

On July 06 2018 01:56 Plansix wrote:
NPR did a pretty good story about the Whisky industry and how they think they will be impacted by Trump's trade war.



The whole thing in a monkey wrench in teh plans of many business people who just wanted to expand their operations and sell their product to new markets. On top of the raised prices, there is also the general backlash against US products since everyone knows that we are responsible for the price increases. And our preside is responsible for insulting their leaders. The one true rule foreign policy is that all citizens are fiercely protective of their exclusive right to shit on their elected officials. Not even the leader of the United States of America can take that away from Canadians.

The wives of wealthy white men will not be caught up in these proceedings.

On July 06 2018 01:54 Mohdoo wrote:
Trade wars before midterms seem questionable. Seems way too risky, especially when the strategy is so transparent.

EU, Canada and China are all more politically stable than the US. EU, Canada and China all ALSO know that they only have to weather the storm long enough for political backlash to make Trump suffer enormously.

There is no conceivable way trade wars, riddled with economic downturn, survive politically in the US more than 1 year. EU, Canada and China also know that if they give in to Trump, their situations will get much, much, much worse as he tries to extend his bravado.

The situation is just so transparent that I don't see how this works for Trump. Our political system is way too volatile to sustain something like a trade war. Europeans would never want their governments to bow to Trump. Same with Canada. Same with China. There's no way this goes well for the US.

On July 05 2018 09:25 screamingpalm wrote:


Yes.

Those are the two main functions of taxes. Create the demand for the currency and regulate inflation/spending power (aka aggregate demand).

There are other tools that can be used as well. When the US economy was running at full capacity during WW2, they sold war bonds to cool it down. For all the fear-mongering about inflation (as in hyperinflation), we have ways to deal with it.


JohnnyB brought up a highly unlikely hypothetical, everyone wouldn't cash out immature bonds all at once and lose the accrued interest. That's ridiculous. If we were to suddenly abolish the national debt one day though...

On July 06 2018 01:39 On_Slaught wrote:
FYI, Trump's China tarrifs go into effect tonight at midnight. China's counter-tarrifs on stuff like soybeans "go into effect immediately after the US acts." Canada and EU counter-tarrifs already in effect. Trump has said he will further escalate against any counter-tarrifs.

Begun, the Trade Wars have.

On July 06 2018 02:05 ticklishmusic wrote:


China is in some trouble. The ruling mandate of the CCP is based on their ability to ensure economic growth and prosperity for the nation. Manufacturing that growth has required massive government intervention, most of it only vaguely understood bordering on the absurd. They have a weird dual-currency system, massive amounts of debt used to fuel construction and a very incestuous web of relationships between oligarchs, the public sector and the largest conglomerates. It's not clear if the CCP can keep the music going, especially with the pressures of a trade war.

There have been China bears forever, but this could be one of the two times a day the broken clock is right. And it could get pretty ugly - I don't expect them to blink, but (if?) when their economy starts going to shit it will have massive ripple effects and they will blame the Trump administration for pointing the gun at the head of world trade. Convenient excuse for an implosion that might have happened anyways.

On July 06 2018 02:05 ticklishmusic wrote:


China is in some trouble. The ruling mandate of the CCP is based on their ability to ensure economic growth and prosperity for the nation. Manufacturing that growth has required massive government intervention, most of it only vaguely understood bordering on the absurd. They have a weird dual-currency system, massive amounts of debt used to fuel construction and a very incestuous web of relationships between oligarchs, the public sector and the largest conglomerates. It's not clear if the CCP can keep the music going, especially with the pressures of a trade war.

There have been China bears forever, but this could be one of the two times a day the broken clock is right. And it could get pretty ugly - I don't expect them to blink, but (if?) when their economy starts going to shit it will have massive ripple effects and they will blame the Trump administration for pointing the gun at the head of world trade. Convenient excuse for an implosion that might have happened anyways.