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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium4764 Posts
It's the same ethical problem with euthanasia. How can you be absolutely sure if someone wants medical assisted suicide they won't regret it right after the point of no return? I absolutely support transitioning, but I'm not sure how to reconcile children making a decision about themselves where tney didn't fully grasp their own selves because they're in a stage where their selves are in full development. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium4764 Posts
On July 07 2023 20:35 Silvanel wrote: @cLutZ Can You elaborate a little? What do You mean that doctors "are proven bad actors"? I have a fun one for you: Context: doctor has a long talk - with proof - about how anti scientific alot of the regulatory/product line framework was/is in the pursuit of clout or capital. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28665 Posts
On July 07 2023 20:32 cLutZ wrote: Doctors are proven bad actors on this particular question. If the guild of lobotomizers was somehow still considered respectable, there would be no difference between them and the AMA. Again, this might be a valid objection to care prescribed by American doctors but puberty blockers and hormonal treatment is also offered in countries where doctors have no economic incentive to do so. It is very possible (I can't find data through any quick googling) that the ratios differ, Norwegian doctors will also sometimes prescribe opiates without us having an opiate crisis, but frankly that's just speculation as I haven't seen any per capita per country comparisons. | ||
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Sermokala
United States13925 Posts
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ZeroByte13
765 Posts
If I will introduce myself to you as King Gustav III the Great, and this is my official name, please always use it - my guess would be that there's a chance you'll struggle with that. Because 99.9% of people don't have such names, and I don't look like a king at all, and your brain might (consciously or subconsciously) feel that something's wrong here, it doesn't feel right. Or maybe you'd call me that but with (inner?) sarcasm. If I'll see - I haven't yet, it's hypothetical - the already mentioned here strawman aka "big bearded guy" who says "hey, my name is Maria, she/her", I might really want to not piss this person off, but I can imagine that my mind - again, potentially - could struggle as it wouldn't "feel right" because this person doesn't match the "pattern" that works for other 99.9%. If this person looks like (or close to) a typical woman, such a problem won't appear, of course. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10495 Posts
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ChristianS
United States3188 Posts
It’s weird because you hardly ever use pronouns talking *to* someone, usually *about* them. So I can go months talking to someone and never have a chance to get it right or wrong, and then at some point screw it up talking to someone else and think “oh fuck, that switch happened ages ago, what’s wrong with me?” But so far if I seem like I’m trying to be respectful everybody’s been pretty tolerant in my experience. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10495 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Sermokala
United States13925 Posts
On July 08 2023 05:11 ZeroByte13 wrote: It's not exactly comparable though, is it? It depends on how natural it would feel. If I will introduce myself to you as King Gustav III the Great, and this is my official name, please always use it - my guess would be that there's a chance you'll struggle with that. Because 99.9% of people don't have such names, and I don't look like a king at all, and your brain might (consciously or subconsciously) feel that something's wrong here, it doesn't feel right. Or maybe you'd call me that but with (inner?) sarcasm. If I'll see - I haven't yet, it's hypothetical - the already mentioned here strawman aka "big bearded guy" who says "hey, my name is Maria, she/her", I might really want to not piss this person off, but I can imagine that my mind - again, potentially - could struggle as it wouldn't "feel right" because this person doesn't match the "pattern" that works for other 99.9%. If this person looks like (or close to) a typical woman, such a problem won't appear, of course. Unironically the problem would be that the Royals back int he day would have had you refer to their proper pronouns as a ruler of a state such as they were the royal "we" and so on. People understood and respected that when useing chosen pronouns was invented but now that its lgbt people we're not for some unknown reason. You would struggle the same way to pronounce people in other languages name correctly and they would ask you to pronouce it correctly as well. That is a much larger struggle then to do the bare minimum of putting some sort of effort into refering to someone how they want to be refered to. Normal people are understanding if you mispronounce some ones name but they would be offended if you continued to purposely mispronounce it. I'm guessing there are a lot more names that are hard to pronouce than there are people who want to use different pronouns. | ||
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ZeroByte13
765 Posts
On July 08 2023 06:47 Sermokala wrote: Actually I have collegues with Swedish, Norwegian, Finnish, French and Polish names, and for quite a few of them I can't pronounce it correctly, and nobody cares enough to correct me.You would struggle the same way to pronounce people in other languages name correctly and they would ask you to pronouce it correctly as well. They mispronounce my name too, and I don't care at all either. I told them the correct pronunciation - not because I want it, just so they know - but they still say it the same way they did for years. And they are a bunch of very lovely people, not incosiderate assholes. Moreover, not being native speaker in either of the languages used in my workplace, sometimes I mix he/she and nobody bats an eye (even the person I'm talking about, if they're standing near), unless they get confused who I'm referencing. People being offended by wrong pronounces is all theoretical to me so far. | ||
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Slydie
1915 Posts
On July 07 2023 20:54 Liquid`Drone wrote: Again, this might be a valid objection to care prescribed by American doctors but puberty blockers and hormonal treatment is also offered in countries where doctors have no economic incentive to do so. It is very possible (I can't find data through any quick googling) that the ratios differ, Norwegian doctors will also sometimes prescribe opiates without us having an opiate crisis, but frankly that's just speculation as I haven't seen any per capita per country comparisons. It is also a really stupid issue to get fired up about. Afaik, there are very few people requesting gender altering treatment in their teens, and politicians should generally stay far away and let doctors and other medical personnel do their jobs. Pretending this is an important issue for any country is arguing in bad faith. Afaik, opiates are rarely prescribed in Norway. They risk of addiction is too high, and they can also be resold by the users. Mishandling of these drugs regularly causes doctors to lose their licenses. It is sad how far this has gone in the US, and it is important to remember that big Pharma have incentives to prioritize sales over public health. They need to be kept an eye on! | ||
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Gahlo
United States35143 Posts
On July 07 2023 07:46 BlackJack wrote: The point is not that "they" can't be used for a singular person. The point is that "he" can't be used for many people. So using "he" does allow you to communicate more information in a concise manner. Also it is helpful in communication by avoiding confusion. Say you are having a conversation about the Los Angeles Lakers and their star player, LeBron James. It's helpful if you can use "he" to refer to LeBron James and "they" to refer to the team. If "they" can be either LeBron James or the team you can easily get confused to the point that you'd have to abandon pronouns altogether and use the proper names to distinguish between the two. Yes it can. Singular they has been a thing for hundreds of years. People also use singular they all the time - even if we're ignoring cases of being respectful people who don't feel comfortable with gendered pronouns. The war against singular they is a relatively modern thing. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10495 Posts
On July 08 2023 07:45 Gahlo wrote: Yes it can. Singular they has been a thing for hundreds of years. People also use singular they all the time - even if we're ignoring cases of being respectful people who don't feel comfortable with gendered pronouns. The war against singular they is a relatively modern thing. The sentence you've bolded is a double negative | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44302 Posts
On July 08 2023 07:45 Gahlo wrote: Yes it can. Singular they has been a thing for hundreds of years. People also use singular they all the time - even if we're ignoring cases of being respectful people who don't feel comfortable with gendered pronouns. The war against singular they is a relatively modern thing. You misread BlackJack's double negative. Pretty sure BJ knows that "they" can be used as a singular pronoun. Edit: I think BJ was highlighting a rebuttal to the notion that nothing would be lost if we removed additional pronouns, similar to what I (and others) had said. The fact that "he" and "she" are not used as plural pronouns can help communicate a situation more efficiently than if only "they" was used for every single circumstance. "They" could be used all the time, just like how repeating the original nouns/names could be used all the time too, but it would be helpful to have other, more exclusive, pronouns exist too, to intuitively narrow down which subjects/objects were being referred to (just for more linguistic options, if they're relevant in context). I think we're all on the same page here. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10495 Posts
On July 07 2023 20:54 Liquid`Drone wrote: Again, this might be a valid objection to care prescribed by American doctors but puberty blockers and hormonal treatment is also offered in countries where doctors have no economic incentive to do so. It is very possible (I can't find data through any quick googling) that the ratios differ, Norwegian doctors will also sometimes prescribe opiates without us having an opiate crisis, but frankly that's just speculation as I haven't seen any per capita per country comparisons. It's also possible for something that is developed with economic incentives in a for-profit system to be exported to a non-for-profit system. A lot of innovation comes out of the United States. Over the last 50-60 years the US has won more Nobel Prizes in medicine than every other country combined (Kind of just estimating this but it sounds right). It's entirely plausible that something developed in the US can be adopted elsewhere simply because the US is seen as having the most modern approach. The video Uldridge posted is pretty interesting. I've only made it halfway through but it talks about the task force that created the DSM-III, and how they added 80~ new diagnoses and basically none of them are founded on robust research but mostly on a small group of clinicians getting in a room and voting on what they think seemed right. Then the DSM was exported to the UK for example where not many knew how arbitrarily these new diagnoses were decided upon. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25216 Posts
On July 08 2023 06:25 BlackJack wrote: I've met quite a few that will verbally berate you for getting their pronouns wrong accidentally. The majority are as you described, but it's also near impossible to tell if someone you just met will be understanding or if they will flip out, so I try to use proper names and avoid pronouns altogether to avoid the faux pas. I find, again personal experience it’s not something I’ve personally found with trans people, granted they either ‘pass’ or are evidently trans so it’s also not a faux pas I really make either. Non-binary folks, less so. I’ll be respectful but it’s not something I particularly understand. We live in such a gendered world, to be without gender feels to me as somewhat akin to being apolitical, I.e fundamentally impossible. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35143 Posts
On July 08 2023 07:48 BlackJack wrote: The sentence you've bolded is a double negative Very true. My mistake. | ||
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Sermokala
United States13925 Posts
On July 08 2023 06:55 ZeroByte13 wrote: Actually I have collegues with Swedish, Norwegian, Finnish, French and Polish names, and for quite a few of them I can't pronounce it correctly, and nobody cares enough to correct me. They mispronounce my name too, and I don't care at all either. I told them the correct pronunciation - not because I want it, just so they know - but they still say it the same way they did for years. And they are a bunch of very lovely people, not incosiderate assholes. Moreover, not being native speaker in either of the languages used in my workplace, sometimes I mix he/she and nobody bats an eye (even the person I'm talking about, if they're standing near), unless they get confused who I'm referencing. People being offended by wrong pronounces is all theoretical to me so far. Then respond based on your theoretical framework. The point is would you refuse to say their name the way they ask you to if they insisted on it? Do you think it would make you an asshole if you wanted to be referred to as your name instead of any name people would call you? People can legally change their names. Should they be allowed to insist that you call them by their new legal name? | ||
KwarK
United States42653 Posts
On July 08 2023 05:56 BlackJack wrote: Yeah, a lot of people do struggle with it. We don't consciously think about every single word we utter. If you spent your entire life referring to masculine appearing people as him and feminine appearing people as her, being able to change course on that is a skill that takes practice. I tend to just go by proper names as often as I can and avoid pronouns altogether. Yeah except as a general rule the trans woman with long hair in a dress wants you to use she/her so the fact that your brain unconsciously defaults to those really isn’t an issue. If you don’t think about it at all you’ll get it right. The fact that people have to make an active effort to use male pronouns for trans women is how we know they’re assholes when they do it. | ||
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