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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
I would have excluded it in my post introducing the topic if I knew bathroom bans would be the debate everyone ran with
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On July 06 2023 02:17 BlackJack wrote:
I would have excluded it in my post introducing the topic if I knew bathroom bans would be the debate everyone ran with
Yeah, that was really weird. You posted a reasonable post with lots of positions, and somehow we end up with everyone arguing violently (and very inefficiently) about bathrooms.
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Its not werid in the context of Us politics when you have people clapping for the "extermination of transgenderism" and more bills in the past few years on trans people than all other history combined.
Trans people and bathrooms have been at the forefront of a lot of culture war screeching by the right. asking for someone to register their genitals with a government official isn't a joke concept invented by the thread in the past few pages.
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Who here is clapping for the "extermination of transgenderism"???
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On July 06 2023 06:53 BlackJack wrote:
Who here is clapping for the "extermination of transgenderism"???
I got the impression that he was referring to certain Americans and American politicians out in the real world (like how Trump/DeSantis crowds clap and cheer and respond favorably during live anti-trans speeches), not individuals posting in this thread, though I could be mistaken.
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Yeah I'm pretty sure Sermokala is referencing Michael Knowles calling for the eradication of transgenderism at CPAC this year
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/cpac-transgenderism-daily-wire-michael-knowles-b2294252.html
EDIT: To add my two cents to an older discussion, with all the proposed laws that target trans people and with statements like these, it is very easy to see why a trans person could think the right is engaging in or wants to engage in a genocide that targets trans people, and I, as a cis person, do think the leaders and talking heads of the political right in the US would engage in a genocide of trans people in the US if they could.
Here is the quote from the article, with transgenderism changed to judaism. Hopefully this'll make the genocidal language more obvious:
‘If [judaism] is false, then for the good of society, judiasm must be eradicated from public life entirely – the whole preposterous ideology,’
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Northern Ireland24390 Posts
I mean personally I think trans people should be happy that they’re not being actively exterminated and merely restricted from care, at the forefront of the ‘culture war’ and a key piece of the ‘bathroom debate’, seemingly simultaneously the most important issue facing humanity and the least resolvable
/s tag, although if you required it I’m disappointed
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On July 06 2023 08:42 WombaT wrote:
I mean personally I think trans people should be happy that they’re not being actively exterminated and merely restricted from care, at the forefront of the ‘culture war’ and a key piece of the ‘bathroom debate’, seemingly simultaneously the most important issue facing humanity and the least resolvable
/s tag, although if you required it I’m disappointed
Unfortunately, I could imagine that many Americans might think "hey, just be happy we're letting you out of the closet" is sufficient, and that the trans community asking for anything more right now is flying too close to the sun.
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Russian Federation366 Posts
On July 05 2023 14:15 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2023 12:53 BlackJack wrote:On July 05 2023 12:13 KwarK wrote:On July 05 2023 11:30 BlackJack wrote:On July 05 2023 11:14 Fleetfeet wrote:On July 05 2023 11:02 BlackJack wrote:On July 05 2023 07:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 05 2023 02:21 BlackJack wrote:On July 04 2023 15:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 14:34 BlackJack wrote:
[quote]
I don’t know what ethical concern means in this context but penises being scary probably is a valid concern for many women. People with penises commit the vast majority of murders, rapes, sexual assaults, voyeurism, etc. The cavalier attitude of “just because someone has a penis doesn’t mean they are going to assault you” comes off as tone-deaf to very real issues that women have to deal with.
If only I had suggested safe, private, single-person stalls, and preemptively underlined it because I had a feeling you'd ignore it. Anyone can use them, from sexists to sexual assault victims. No explanation needed. You suggested single-person stalls, which may or may not be practical, while also being generally dismissive of whether women should be concerned with penises in their spaces. The stalls themselves have nothing to do with whether women should or shouldn’t be concerned with penises. Can you please elaborate on why you believe that having single-person changing room stalls "has nothing to do with" women's feelings / everyone's perceived or real vulnerabilities? The single-person stalls were suggested as a way to directly address those very issues, and so far there doesn't seem to be a significant counterpoint as to why they wouldn't work in practice (especially given the fact that they currently work just fine in any department stores or other areas that use them). Do you mean that single-person stalls don't address the underlying systemic issues against women and other demographics that need to be fixed? Because sure, I agree that it doesn't, but neither does keeping men and women separate. I was addressing your dismissive attitude towards women who might not want penises in their spaces. Giving them private stalls does nothing for the dismissiveness. I don’t think I can clarify it any more than that so maybe we should just move on. You made up this dismissive attitude. It is not real. No women here have presented the idea to DPB that they do not want penises in their spaces. If they had, I'm certain DPB would respond charitably and include them in the conversation while pointing out that their spaces would still be protected within the shared space of a unisex room. From there, a conversation could be had. Yes, were this a real board producing a real decision, it would be important to have a few less dicks on the board. However, you're still a dick and while you're welcome to point out that there are too many dicks on the board, you can't appoint yourself a non-dick and say words for them. I, for one, encourage people to be dismissive towards people presenting themselves as the authority for a group they are not part of. He said “women being scared of penises is not a valid ethical concern.” Im other words women being afraid of people with penises should have no bearing on whether they should be allowed in women’s spaces. On July 05 2023 11:04 KwarK wrote:On July 05 2023 11:02 BlackJack wrote:On July 05 2023 07:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 05 2023 02:21 BlackJack wrote:On July 04 2023 15:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 14:34 BlackJack wrote:
[quote]
I don’t know what ethical concern means in this context but penises being scary probably is a valid concern for many women. People with penises commit the vast majority of murders, rapes, sexual assaults, voyeurism, etc. The cavalier attitude of “just because someone has a penis doesn’t mean they are going to assault you” comes off as tone-deaf to very real issues that women have to deal with.
If only I had suggested safe, private, single-person stalls, and preemptively underlined it because I had a feeling you'd ignore it. Anyone can use them, from sexists to sexual assault victims. No explanation needed. You suggested single-person stalls, which may or may not be practical, while also being generally dismissive of whether women should be concerned with penises in their spaces. The stalls themselves have nothing to do with whether women should or shouldn’t be concerned with penises. Can you please elaborate on why you believe that having single-person changing room stalls "has nothing to do with" women's feelings / everyone's perceived or real vulnerabilities? The single-person stalls were suggested as a way to directly address those very issues, and so far there doesn't seem to be a significant counterpoint as to why they wouldn't work in practice (especially given the fact that they currently work just fine in any department stores or other areas that use them). Do you mean that single-person stalls don't address the underlying systemic issues against women and other demographics that need to be fixed? Because sure, I agree that it doesn't, but neither does keeping men and women separate. I was addressing your dismissive attitude towards women who might not want penises in their spaces. Giving them private stalls does nothing for the dismissiveness. I don’t think I can clarify it any more than that so maybe we should just move on. The space women are entitled not to have penises in is their bodies. They're not entitled to legislate that no penises be allowed in communal spaces intended for other people, some of whom have penises. Obviously. Is this not a dismissive attitude to what women may think on the matter? Edit: also there’s congressional testimony from one of Lia Thomases former teammates that some of the girls changed in the janitors closet because they felt uncomfortable. The idea that anyone is “inventing” women that are uncomfortable is off the mark. It’s not unfairly dismissive and women are coming out ahead in my “you don’t get to decide which shared public spaces are reserved for which sex” stance. For most of history people without penises haven’t been allowed in positions of power. I’m dismissive of the people wishing to continue that oppression and their desire to restrict access based on penises. If there’s a space that is intended for everyone and someone comes along and says “letting people with/without penises in makes me feel uncomfortable” then that’s their feeling but it’s not public policy. I mean come the fuck on, this is coloured water fountains all over again. You can feel uncomfortable if you like, as long as you accept that that’s your problem and don’t make it everyone else’s. I don’t disagree, I think this is logically consistent. I think a lot of times people want to have their cake and eat it too by saying it’s okay to banish cis people with penises but not trans people with penises from women spaces. It’s is okay to ban men from women’s spaces but not okay to ban trans women from women’s spaces because trans women are women. A bathroom is not a cis woman exclusionary zone. It’s for all women.
Kwark,
It seems you think that trans women are women. So simple question: will you have a sex with trans women? If yes, i will respect your statements, if not - why not, isnt it a woman?
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On July 06 2023 09:00 iFU.spx wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2023 14:15 KwarK wrote:On July 05 2023 12:53 BlackJack wrote:On July 05 2023 12:13 KwarK wrote:On July 05 2023 11:30 BlackJack wrote:On July 05 2023 11:14 Fleetfeet wrote:On July 05 2023 11:02 BlackJack wrote:On July 05 2023 07:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 05 2023 02:21 BlackJack wrote:On July 04 2023 15:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
If only I had suggested safe, private, single-person stalls, and preemptively underlined it because I had a feeling you'd ignore it. Anyone can use them, from sexists to sexual assault victims. No explanation needed. You suggested single-person stalls, which may or may not be practical, while also being generally dismissive of whether women should be concerned with penises in their spaces. The stalls themselves have nothing to do with whether women should or shouldn’t be concerned with penises. Can you please elaborate on why you believe that having single-person changing room stalls "has nothing to do with" women's feelings / everyone's perceived or real vulnerabilities? The single-person stalls were suggested as a way to directly address those very issues, and so far there doesn't seem to be a significant counterpoint as to why they wouldn't work in practice (especially given the fact that they currently work just fine in any department stores or other areas that use them). Do you mean that single-person stalls don't address the underlying systemic issues against women and other demographics that need to be fixed? Because sure, I agree that it doesn't, but neither does keeping men and women separate. I was addressing your dismissive attitude towards women who might not want penises in their spaces. Giving them private stalls does nothing for the dismissiveness. I don’t think I can clarify it any more than that so maybe we should just move on. You made up this dismissive attitude. It is not real. No women here have presented the idea to DPB that they do not want penises in their spaces. If they had, I'm certain DPB would respond charitably and include them in the conversation while pointing out that their spaces would still be protected within the shared space of a unisex room. From there, a conversation could be had. Yes, were this a real board producing a real decision, it would be important to have a few less dicks on the board. However, you're still a dick and while you're welcome to point out that there are too many dicks on the board, you can't appoint yourself a non-dick and say words for them. I, for one, encourage people to be dismissive towards people presenting themselves as the authority for a group they are not part of. He said “women being scared of penises is not a valid ethical concern.” Im other words women being afraid of people with penises should have no bearing on whether they should be allowed in women’s spaces. On July 05 2023 11:04 KwarK wrote:On July 05 2023 11:02 BlackJack wrote:On July 05 2023 07:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 05 2023 02:21 BlackJack wrote:On July 04 2023 15:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
If only I had suggested safe, private, single-person stalls, and preemptively underlined it because I had a feeling you'd ignore it. Anyone can use them, from sexists to sexual assault victims. No explanation needed. You suggested single-person stalls, which may or may not be practical, while also being generally dismissive of whether women should be concerned with penises in their spaces. The stalls themselves have nothing to do with whether women should or shouldn’t be concerned with penises. Can you please elaborate on why you believe that having single-person changing room stalls "has nothing to do with" women's feelings / everyone's perceived or real vulnerabilities? The single-person stalls were suggested as a way to directly address those very issues, and so far there doesn't seem to be a significant counterpoint as to why they wouldn't work in practice (especially given the fact that they currently work just fine in any department stores or other areas that use them). Do you mean that single-person stalls don't address the underlying systemic issues against women and other demographics that need to be fixed? Because sure, I agree that it doesn't, but neither does keeping men and women separate. I was addressing your dismissive attitude towards women who might not want penises in their spaces. Giving them private stalls does nothing for the dismissiveness. I don’t think I can clarify it any more than that so maybe we should just move on. The space women are entitled not to have penises in is their bodies. They're not entitled to legislate that no penises be allowed in communal spaces intended for other people, some of whom have penises. Obviously. Is this not a dismissive attitude to what women may think on the matter? Edit: also there’s congressional testimony from one of Lia Thomases former teammates that some of the girls changed in the janitors closet because they felt uncomfortable. The idea that anyone is “inventing” women that are uncomfortable is off the mark. It’s not unfairly dismissive and women are coming out ahead in my “you don’t get to decide which shared public spaces are reserved for which sex” stance. For most of history people without penises haven’t been allowed in positions of power. I’m dismissive of the people wishing to continue that oppression and their desire to restrict access based on penises. If there’s a space that is intended for everyone and someone comes along and says “letting people with/without penises in makes me feel uncomfortable” then that’s their feeling but it’s not public policy. I mean come the fuck on, this is coloured water fountains all over again. You can feel uncomfortable if you like, as long as you accept that that’s your problem and don’t make it everyone else’s. I don’t disagree, I think this is logically consistent. I think a lot of times people want to have their cake and eat it too by saying it’s okay to banish cis people with penises but not trans people with penises from women spaces. It’s is okay to ban men from women’s spaces but not okay to ban trans women from women’s spaces because trans women are women. A bathroom is not a cis woman exclusionary zone. It’s for all women. Kwark, It seems you think that trans women are women. So simple question: will you have a sex with trans women? If yes, i will respect your statements, if not - why not, isnt it a woman?
There ought to be a lot more that goes into the decision of whether or not you'll have sex with person x than just "is the person cis or trans". Do you want to have sex with every cis-woman, just because they're a woman? I'd imagine you'd need to actually see and speak with a woman before concluding whether or not you'd sleep with her.
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On July 06 2023 08:59 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2023 08:42 WombaT wrote:
I mean personally I think trans people should be happy that they’re not being actively exterminated and merely restricted from care, at the forefront of the ‘culture war’ and a key piece of the ‘bathroom debate’, seemingly simultaneously the most important issue facing humanity and the least resolvable
/s tag, although if you required it I’m disappointed Unfortunately, I could imagine that many Americans might think "hey, just be happy we're letting you out of the closet" is sufficient, and that the trans community asking for anything more right now is flying too close to the sun.
It's a majority of people in the US that basically feel that way including over 1/3 of Democrats if you count the "been about right" cohort from Drone's link.
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Russian Federation366 Posts
On July 06 2023 09:02 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2023 09:00 iFU.spx wrote:On July 05 2023 14:15 KwarK wrote:On July 05 2023 12:53 BlackJack wrote:On July 05 2023 12:13 KwarK wrote:On July 05 2023 11:30 BlackJack wrote:On July 05 2023 11:14 Fleetfeet wrote:On July 05 2023 11:02 BlackJack wrote:On July 05 2023 07:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 05 2023 02:21 BlackJack wrote:
[quote]
You suggested single-person stalls, which may or may not be practical, while also being generally dismissive of whether women should be concerned with penises in their spaces. The stalls themselves have nothing to do with whether women should or shouldn’t be concerned with penises. Can you please elaborate on why you believe that having single-person changing room stalls "has nothing to do with" women's feelings / everyone's perceived or real vulnerabilities? The single-person stalls were suggested as a way to directly address those very issues, and so far there doesn't seem to be a significant counterpoint as to why they wouldn't work in practice (especially given the fact that they currently work just fine in any department stores or other areas that use them). Do you mean that single-person stalls don't address the underlying systemic issues against women and other demographics that need to be fixed? Because sure, I agree that it doesn't, but neither does keeping men and women separate. I was addressing your dismissive attitude towards women who might not want penises in their spaces. Giving them private stalls does nothing for the dismissiveness. I don’t think I can clarify it any more than that so maybe we should just move on. You made up this dismissive attitude. It is not real. No women here have presented the idea to DPB that they do not want penises in their spaces. If they had, I'm certain DPB would respond charitably and include them in the conversation while pointing out that their spaces would still be protected within the shared space of a unisex room. From there, a conversation could be had. Yes, were this a real board producing a real decision, it would be important to have a few less dicks on the board. However, you're still a dick and while you're welcome to point out that there are too many dicks on the board, you can't appoint yourself a non-dick and say words for them. I, for one, encourage people to be dismissive towards people presenting themselves as the authority for a group they are not part of. He said “women being scared of penises is not a valid ethical concern.” Im other words women being afraid of people with penises should have no bearing on whether they should be allowed in women’s spaces. On July 05 2023 11:04 KwarK wrote:On July 05 2023 11:02 BlackJack wrote:On July 05 2023 07:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 05 2023 02:21 BlackJack wrote:
[quote]
You suggested single-person stalls, which may or may not be practical, while also being generally dismissive of whether women should be concerned with penises in their spaces. The stalls themselves have nothing to do with whether women should or shouldn’t be concerned with penises. Can you please elaborate on why you believe that having single-person changing room stalls "has nothing to do with" women's feelings / everyone's perceived or real vulnerabilities? The single-person stalls were suggested as a way to directly address those very issues, and so far there doesn't seem to be a significant counterpoint as to why they wouldn't work in practice (especially given the fact that they currently work just fine in any department stores or other areas that use them). Do you mean that single-person stalls don't address the underlying systemic issues against women and other demographics that need to be fixed? Because sure, I agree that it doesn't, but neither does keeping men and women separate. I was addressing your dismissive attitude towards women who might not want penises in their spaces. Giving them private stalls does nothing for the dismissiveness. I don’t think I can clarify it any more than that so maybe we should just move on. The space women are entitled not to have penises in is their bodies. They're not entitled to legislate that no penises be allowed in communal spaces intended for other people, some of whom have penises. Obviously. Is this not a dismissive attitude to what women may think on the matter? Edit: also there’s congressional testimony from one of Lia Thomases former teammates that some of the girls changed in the janitors closet because they felt uncomfortable. The idea that anyone is “inventing” women that are uncomfortable is off the mark. It’s not unfairly dismissive and women are coming out ahead in my “you don’t get to decide which shared public spaces are reserved for which sex” stance. For most of history people without penises haven’t been allowed in positions of power. I’m dismissive of the people wishing to continue that oppression and their desire to restrict access based on penises. If there’s a space that is intended for everyone and someone comes along and says “letting people with/without penises in makes me feel uncomfortable” then that’s their feeling but it’s not public policy. I mean come the fuck on, this is coloured water fountains all over again. You can feel uncomfortable if you like, as long as you accept that that’s your problem and don’t make it everyone else’s. I don’t disagree, I think this is logically consistent. I think a lot of times people want to have their cake and eat it too by saying it’s okay to banish cis people with penises but not trans people with penises from women spaces. It’s is okay to ban men from women’s spaces but not okay to ban trans women from women’s spaces because trans women are women. A bathroom is not a cis woman exclusionary zone. It’s for all women. Kwark, It seems you think that trans women are women. So simple question: will you have a sex with trans women? If yes, i will respect your statements, if not - why not, isnt it a woman? There ought to be a lot more that goes into the decision of whether or not you'll have sex with person x than just "is the person cis or trans". Do you want to have sex with every cis-woman, just because they're a woman? I'd imagine you'd need to actually see and speak with a woman before concluding whether or not you'd sleep with her.
Thank you for your answer. I understood it as you are okay to have a sex with trans women if x happens. By “x” i mean your “a lot morethat goes into decision”, in other words any set of parameters you think of to make it happen.
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It's a silly question anyway, since partner choice is inherently discriminatory.
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On July 06 2023 09:10 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2023 08:59 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 06 2023 08:42 WombaT wrote:
I mean personally I think trans people should be happy that they’re not being actively exterminated and merely restricted from care, at the forefront of the ‘culture war’ and a key piece of the ‘bathroom debate’, seemingly simultaneously the most important issue facing humanity and the least resolvable
/s tag, although if you required it I’m disappointed Unfortunately, I could imagine that many Americans might think "hey, just be happy we're letting you out of the closet" is sufficient, and that the trans community asking for anything more right now is flying too close to the sun. It's a majority of people in the US that basically feel that way including over 1/3 of Democrats if you count the "been about right" cohort from Drone's link.
That's very disappointing, although based on the vague wording of the poll's question, there could be different interpretations of the data. For example, if I live in a bubble and am under the impression that the trans community is pretty happy with the progress they've made, then I might put "Been about right". If I live in a second bubble and only hear about a super-rare-fringe anecdote about an imaginary trans person wanting to surgically change the sex of babies and that the Demon-rat-ic party is okay with that happening, then I might worry that society may accept that and conclude that we've all gone too far. In other words, that poll would need to consider which echo chambers we all live in, as well as what issues the trans community actually, generally values. I definitely can't say the data is encouraging though 
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On July 06 2023 09:15 iFU.spx wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2023 09:02 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 06 2023 09:00 iFU.spx wrote:On July 05 2023 14:15 KwarK wrote:On July 05 2023 12:53 BlackJack wrote:On July 05 2023 12:13 KwarK wrote:On July 05 2023 11:30 BlackJack wrote:On July 05 2023 11:14 Fleetfeet wrote:On July 05 2023 11:02 BlackJack wrote:On July 05 2023 07:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
Can you please elaborate on why you believe that having single-person changing room stalls "has nothing to do with" women's feelings / everyone's perceived or real vulnerabilities? The single-person stalls were suggested as a way to directly address those very issues, and so far there doesn't seem to be a significant counterpoint as to why they wouldn't work in practice (especially given the fact that they currently work just fine in any department stores or other areas that use them). Do you mean that single-person stalls don't address the underlying systemic issues against women and other demographics that need to be fixed? Because sure, I agree that it doesn't, but neither does keeping men and women separate. I was addressing your dismissive attitude towards women who might not want penises in their spaces. Giving them private stalls does nothing for the dismissiveness. I don’t think I can clarify it any more than that so maybe we should just move on. You made up this dismissive attitude. It is not real. No women here have presented the idea to DPB that they do not want penises in their spaces. If they had, I'm certain DPB would respond charitably and include them in the conversation while pointing out that their spaces would still be protected within the shared space of a unisex room. From there, a conversation could be had. Yes, were this a real board producing a real decision, it would be important to have a few less dicks on the board. However, you're still a dick and while you're welcome to point out that there are too many dicks on the board, you can't appoint yourself a non-dick and say words for them. I, for one, encourage people to be dismissive towards people presenting themselves as the authority for a group they are not part of. He said “women being scared of penises is not a valid ethical concern.” Im other words women being afraid of people with penises should have no bearing on whether they should be allowed in women’s spaces. On July 05 2023 11:04 KwarK wrote:On July 05 2023 11:02 BlackJack wrote:On July 05 2023 07:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
Can you please elaborate on why you believe that having single-person changing room stalls "has nothing to do with" women's feelings / everyone's perceived or real vulnerabilities? The single-person stalls were suggested as a way to directly address those very issues, and so far there doesn't seem to be a significant counterpoint as to why they wouldn't work in practice (especially given the fact that they currently work just fine in any department stores or other areas that use them). Do you mean that single-person stalls don't address the underlying systemic issues against women and other demographics that need to be fixed? Because sure, I agree that it doesn't, but neither does keeping men and women separate. I was addressing your dismissive attitude towards women who might not want penises in their spaces. Giving them private stalls does nothing for the dismissiveness. I don’t think I can clarify it any more than that so maybe we should just move on. The space women are entitled not to have penises in is their bodies. They're not entitled to legislate that no penises be allowed in communal spaces intended for other people, some of whom have penises. Obviously. Is this not a dismissive attitude to what women may think on the matter? Edit: also there’s congressional testimony from one of Lia Thomases former teammates that some of the girls changed in the janitors closet because they felt uncomfortable. The idea that anyone is “inventing” women that are uncomfortable is off the mark. It’s not unfairly dismissive and women are coming out ahead in my “you don’t get to decide which shared public spaces are reserved for which sex” stance. For most of history people without penises haven’t been allowed in positions of power. I’m dismissive of the people wishing to continue that oppression and their desire to restrict access based on penises. If there’s a space that is intended for everyone and someone comes along and says “letting people with/without penises in makes me feel uncomfortable” then that’s their feeling but it’s not public policy. I mean come the fuck on, this is coloured water fountains all over again. You can feel uncomfortable if you like, as long as you accept that that’s your problem and don’t make it everyone else’s. I don’t disagree, I think this is logically consistent. I think a lot of times people want to have their cake and eat it too by saying it’s okay to banish cis people with penises but not trans people with penises from women spaces. It’s is okay to ban men from women’s spaces but not okay to ban trans women from women’s spaces because trans women are women. A bathroom is not a cis woman exclusionary zone. It’s for all women. Kwark, It seems you think that trans women are women. So simple question: will you have a sex with trans women? If yes, i will respect your statements, if not - why not, isnt it a woman? There ought to be a lot more that goes into the decision of whether or not you'll have sex with person x than just "is the person cis or trans". Do you want to have sex with every cis-woman, just because they're a woman? I'd imagine you'd need to actually see and speak with a woman before concluding whether or not you'd sleep with her. Thank you for your answer. I understood it as you are okay to have a sex with trans women if x happens. By “x” i mean your “a lot morethat goes into decision”, in other words any set of parameters you think of to make it happen.
Broadly speaking, yes. For me, a woman being trans is not necessarily a factor that automatically rejects them from my pool of potential sex partners (which is what I think you're asking). That being said, I'm happily married, so I'm not planning on having any other sex partners, cis or trans, lol.
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On July 06 2023 09:19 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2023 09:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 06 2023 08:59 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 06 2023 08:42 WombaT wrote:
I mean personally I think trans people should be happy that they’re not being actively exterminated and merely restricted from care, at the forefront of the ‘culture war’ and a key piece of the ‘bathroom debate’, seemingly simultaneously the most important issue facing humanity and the least resolvable
/s tag, although if you required it I’m disappointed Unfortunately, I could imagine that many Americans might think "hey, just be happy we're letting you out of the closet" is sufficient, and that the trans community asking for anything more right now is flying too close to the sun. It's a majority of people in the US that basically feel that way including over 1/3 of Democrats if you count the "been about right" cohort from Drone's link. That's very disappointing, although based on the vague wording of the poll question, there could be different interpretations of the data. For example, if I live in a bubble and am under the impression that the trans community is pretty happy with the progress they've made, then I might put "Been about right". If I live in a second bubble and only hear about a super-rare-fringe anecdote about an imaginary trans person wanting to surgically change the sex of babies and that the Demon-rat-ic party is okay with that happening, then I might worry that society may accept that and conclude that we've all gone too far. In other words, that poll would need to consider which echo chambers we all live in, as well as what issues the trans community actually, generally values. I definitely can't say the data is optimistic though lol.
It's mediocre data in itself but the whole "you want too much of your rights and dignity too soon, be happy we're not helping the other guys strip more of them away even faster (more often than we are)" is bread and butter Democrat politics.
Whether it's Indigenous people, Black people, women, disabled people, etc... we're all patiently waiting/proactively working and are all still getting the standard hold music from the Democratic party and beratement if/when we aren't grateful for what we've gotten and dare to expect more.
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On July 06 2023 09:33 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2023 09:19 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 06 2023 09:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 06 2023 08:59 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 06 2023 08:42 WombaT wrote:
I mean personally I think trans people should be happy that they’re not being actively exterminated and merely restricted from care, at the forefront of the ‘culture war’ and a key piece of the ‘bathroom debate’, seemingly simultaneously the most important issue facing humanity and the least resolvable
/s tag, although if you required it I’m disappointed Unfortunately, I could imagine that many Americans might think "hey, just be happy we're letting you out of the closet" is sufficient, and that the trans community asking for anything more right now is flying too close to the sun. It's a majority of people in the US that basically feel that way including over 1/3 of Democrats if you count the "been about right" cohort from Drone's link. That's very disappointing, although based on the vague wording of the poll question, there could be different interpretations of the data. For example, if I live in a bubble and am under the impression that the trans community is pretty happy with the progress they've made, then I might put "Been about right". If I live in a second bubble and only hear about a super-rare-fringe anecdote about an imaginary trans person wanting to surgically change the sex of babies and that the Demon-rat-ic party is okay with that happening, then I might worry that society may accept that and conclude that we've all gone too far. In other words, that poll would need to consider which echo chambers we all live in, as well as what issues the trans community actually, generally values. I definitely can't say the data is optimistic though lol. It's mediocre data in itself but the whole "you want too much of your rights and dignity too soon, be happy we're not helping the other guys strip more of them away even faster (more often than we are)" is bread and butter Democrat politics. Whether it's indigenous people, Black people, women, disabled people, etc... we're all patiently waiting/proactively working and are all still getting the standard hold music from the Democratic party and beratement if/when we aren't grateful for what we've gotten and dare to expect more.
I agree. Which politicians (if any) do you think do an admirable job of perpetuating the push for more rights for these demographics? Any role models?
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On July 05 2023 15:34 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2023 14:33 Salazarz wrote:On July 05 2023 12:58 BlackJack wrote:On July 05 2023 12:43 Taelshin wrote:
@Salazarz , I'm Canadian, What guns? You’re allowed to make these kind of tangential posts as long as you’re doing it to call conservatives bigots or hypocrites. Don’t feel safe around penises, what about guns?!?! These are called good faith arguments. Just don’t try to make posts like that about liberals. Take my word for it You're welcome to bring up any inconsistencies you find in the statements I make or stances I hold. I couldn't care less about some fairytale liberals somewhere out there who believe in whatever you think they believe in; my comment about hypocrisy and lack of consistency is aimed squarely at posters who are active in this thread, such as yourself. But of course, you'd rather deflect and bullshit away rather than explain how your stance is logical and consistent, I didn't really expect anything else from you. A few days ago when we were talking about threats trans faced and I made a point to say overestimating threats can lead to bad policy like how Democrats overestimated the threats to COVID your response was in part: Show nested quote +On July 03 2023 01:22 Salazarz wrote:
Take your rant about democrats who believe 50% of COVID cases end in hospitalization -- literally who cares? None of the posters here have ever claimed anything like that, it's an irrelevant point that has nothing to do with the conversation people are trying to have yet you somehow think that makes your inane bullshit more valid. It's ridiculous. But now here you are trying to draw some comparison between being uncomfortable around penises to being uncomfortable around guns. Literally who cares? Who in this thread is talking about guns? It's an irrelevant point that has nothing to do with the conversation people are trying have yet you somehow think that makes your inane bullshit more valid. It's ridiculous. You get to make some random tangential point to what...? Dunk on random MAGA Republicans that oppose gun control? "Pwn the cons" as it were? This is peak hypocrisy If I post a youtube of something a liberal said that I think is dumb everyone groans and moans... yet a good chunk of this thread is just a circle-jerk over the latest dumb thing that marjorie taylor-green has said. The double standard is palpable.
This isn't peak hypocrisy, it's peak false equivalency. My random tangential point isn't there to dunk on MAGA Republicans that oppose gun control or to pwn the cons, I'm actually genuinely curious how do people who are against gun control reconcile that position with government being the one to decide who gets to use which bathroom. If you want to ask me how my stance on COVID reconciles with my stance on trans rights, you're welcome to bring that up, too; I don't think there's a whole lot to discuss there but hey, can't be much worse than whatever has been going on for the last 10 pages or so here...
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Russian Federation366 Posts
On July 06 2023 09:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2023 09:15 iFU.spx wrote:On July 06 2023 09:02 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 06 2023 09:00 iFU.spx wrote:On July 05 2023 14:15 KwarK wrote:On July 05 2023 12:53 BlackJack wrote:On July 05 2023 12:13 KwarK wrote:On July 05 2023 11:30 BlackJack wrote:On July 05 2023 11:14 Fleetfeet wrote:On July 05 2023 11:02 BlackJack wrote:
[quote]
I was addressing your dismissive attitude towards women who might not want penises in their spaces. Giving them private stalls does nothing for the dismissiveness. I don’t think I can clarify it any more than that so maybe we should just move on.
You made up this dismissive attitude. It is not real. No women here have presented the idea to DPB that they do not want penises in their spaces. If they had, I'm certain DPB would respond charitably and include them in the conversation while pointing out that their spaces would still be protected within the shared space of a unisex room. From there, a conversation could be had. Yes, were this a real board producing a real decision, it would be important to have a few less dicks on the board. However, you're still a dick and while you're welcome to point out that there are too many dicks on the board, you can't appoint yourself a non-dick and say words for them. I, for one, encourage people to be dismissive towards people presenting themselves as the authority for a group they are not part of. He said “women being scared of penises is not a valid ethical concern.” Im other words women being afraid of people with penises should have no bearing on whether they should be allowed in women’s spaces. On July 05 2023 11:04 KwarK wrote:On July 05 2023 11:02 BlackJack wrote:
[quote]
I was addressing your dismissive attitude towards women who might not want penises in their spaces. Giving them private stalls does nothing for the dismissiveness. I don’t think I can clarify it any more than that so maybe we should just move on.
The space women are entitled not to have penises in is their bodies. They're not entitled to legislate that no penises be allowed in communal spaces intended for other people, some of whom have penises. Obviously. Is this not a dismissive attitude to what women may think on the matter? Edit: also there’s congressional testimony from one of Lia Thomases former teammates that some of the girls changed in the janitors closet because they felt uncomfortable. The idea that anyone is “inventing” women that are uncomfortable is off the mark. It’s not unfairly dismissive and women are coming out ahead in my “you don’t get to decide which shared public spaces are reserved for which sex” stance. For most of history people without penises haven’t been allowed in positions of power. I’m dismissive of the people wishing to continue that oppression and their desire to restrict access based on penises. If there’s a space that is intended for everyone and someone comes along and says “letting people with/without penises in makes me feel uncomfortable” then that’s their feeling but it’s not public policy. I mean come the fuck on, this is coloured water fountains all over again. You can feel uncomfortable if you like, as long as you accept that that’s your problem and don’t make it everyone else’s. I don’t disagree, I think this is logically consistent. I think a lot of times people want to have their cake and eat it too by saying it’s okay to banish cis people with penises but not trans people with penises from women spaces. It’s is okay to ban men from women’s spaces but not okay to ban trans women from women’s spaces because trans women are women. A bathroom is not a cis woman exclusionary zone. It’s for all women. Kwark, It seems you think that trans women are women. So simple question: will you have a sex with trans women? If yes, i will respect your statements, if not - why not, isnt it a woman? There ought to be a lot more that goes into the decision of whether or not you'll have sex with person x than just "is the person cis or trans". Do you want to have sex with every cis-woman, just because they're a woman? I'd imagine you'd need to actually see and speak with a woman before concluding whether or not you'd sleep with her. Thank you for your answer. I understood it as you are okay to have a sex with trans women if x happens. By “x” i mean your “a lot morethat goes into decision”, in other words any set of parameters you think of to make it happen. Broadly speaking, yes. For me, a woman being trans is not necessarily a factor that automatically rejects them from my pool of potential sex partners (which is what I think you're asking). That being said, I'm happily married, so I'm not planning on having any other sex partners, cis or trans, lol.
Thanks. That “lol” in the end tells a lot actually. It seems you are just hypothetically speaking that something is good/right without trying it, but in the end you will never try it because of many excuses you will come up with when it comes from broad to strict case. Secondly you said “for woman being a trans”, which means you think that trans woman and woman are different, right?
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How is saying "black woman" different from saying "woman". They're the same thing, right?
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EPT
