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On July 05 2023 16:48 Taelshin wrote:
@Acrofales Naw it's an assumption don't allow that to break your lil world view though.
Ok. I'll bite! Explain to me why it is an assumption. Note that for X is Y to be an assumption, both X and Y need to have a clear and unequivocal meaning. In this case Y is "a woman". So let's just start with that Please give me a clear and unequivocal definition of a woman.
Or, you know, you could go back about 10 pages to where this conversation first popped up and see that, spoiler alert, "born with a vagina" is not even clear and unequivocal when talking about CIS women.
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On July 05 2023 16:28 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2023 16:20 BlackJack wrote:On July 05 2023 16:07 KwarK wrote:On July 05 2023 16:01 BlackJack wrote:On July 05 2023 15:55 KwarK wrote:On July 05 2023 15:51 BlackJack wrote:On July 05 2023 15:49 KwarK wrote:On July 05 2023 15:21 BlackJack wrote:On July 05 2023 14:50 KwarK wrote:On July 05 2023 14:49 BlackJack wrote:
[quote]
Huh? Didn’t you just say it’s not okay to ban men from women’s spaces? You just compared it to coloured fountains. No. Read my posts again and let me know if you’re still confused by my stance once you’re done. Ok still confused It’s okay to ban men from women’s spaces. If anything it’s necessary to ban them from woman’s spaces. That’s kinda implied by the name. If both men and women are welcome then I would call that a unisex space rather than a woman’s space. but why is it ok? Because of the meaning of words. If I were to say that it’s okay to have 12 eggs in a dozen box of eggs but that it’s not okay to have 5 would you see why that is evidently the case? If so I really don’t see why you’re struggling with how a woman’s space, as opposed to a unisex space, must be exclusionary by definition. It’s okay for a box of a dozen eggs to contain 12. It’s not okay if it contains 5. That would be wrong. You would open that box and say “this is not okay”. Why should an exclusionary space where cis men are not permitted to enter be allowed to exist in the first place? Because things may legally exist unless they’re specifically banned and this one exists. Do you have any arguments for banning it? Because if not I’m really not seeing where you’re going here. You seem to be trying to make me defend its existence when the burden is really on you to first launch an attack. Hell, maybe if you make a sufficiently good argument I’ll agree with you that they shouldn’t exist. But you do actually need to make the argument first before demanding that I respond to it. Here's a few arguments for why cis men shouldn't be excluded from women's bathrooms. I'm assuming you agree with all of them. you don’t get to decide which shared public spaces are reserved for which sex We shouldn't restrict access to things based on penises If you can't handle the existence of other peoples' genitals then that's a problem that you should work on, not a demand that society must cater to Is that really the gotcha you’ve been building up to over the past dozen posts? A simple misunderstanding of my argument? Really? Did I not tell you already to go back and read it again? The women’s bathroom is a shared space for women. All women. Cis women don’t get to decide that they’re not feeling comfortable sharing it with trans women. Just like how white women don’t get to decide they’re not comfortable sharing it with black women. It’s the women’s bathroom, it’s for women. I stated all this earlier, work on your reading comprehension. Are you attempting to make an argument that women’s bathrooms shouldn’t exist at all and that all bathrooms should be unisex? We covered that one already too. I’m open to the idea but we already have lots of bathrooms and I’m not interested in remodeling them. Or are you attempting to make an argument that women’s bathrooms should exist, but that they should be for everyone? If so we covered that one when I explained that words have meanings and that if everyone is welcome in the women’s bathroom then that’s not a women’s bathroom anymore.
It's a little perplexing why you think you have to remodel a bathroom to make it unisex. Bathrooms consist of toilets, urinals, sinks. All of these things can exist in a unisex bathroom, you don't have to change it at all.
Also I take it you would be okay if someone wanted to make a "biological female" bathroom and exclude everyone that's not biologically female?
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It isn't perplexing at all. You can't simultaneously be concerned for straw women's safety and perplexed about why any remodelling would be required to convert a bathroom to unisex as originally described. You're just really trying to force this idea of open non-private private spaces so you can point at them and go "SEE? IT DOESN'T WORK."
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Norway28785 Posts
Kinda headache inducing last couple pages, but at the end now, we are actually getting to something relevant: should people have to commit to a gender? Because the non-village idiots basically all agree that gender dysphoria is real and that if we want to be reasonably decent people we should make the lives of people struggling with this better by catering to them in whatever way is reasonable, and then there are some topics where there can be legitimate disagreement on just where this line goes.
But we haven't really touched upon how gender fluidity impacts these questions. Of course, the unisex single stalls handle the bathroom element of this quite nicely, but basically, aside from sports, is there really much point in segregating anything based on gender? Do we need it listed on our ID? Is that an essential part of drop down menus when we register for stuff, or could it just be skipped entirely?
I don't fully know what I think myself, tbh. From an 'organizing society' pov I can see how it makes it easier to have these neat boxes, but I dunno if this is one of those it is like it is because it is like it is things or if it just fundamentally makes sense.
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On July 05 2023 16:57 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2023 16:28 KwarK wrote:On July 05 2023 16:20 BlackJack wrote:On July 05 2023 16:07 KwarK wrote:On July 05 2023 16:01 BlackJack wrote:On July 05 2023 15:55 KwarK wrote:On July 05 2023 15:51 BlackJack wrote:On July 05 2023 15:49 KwarK wrote:On July 05 2023 15:21 BlackJack wrote:On July 05 2023 14:50 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
No. Read my posts again and let me know if you’re still confused by my stance once you’re done. Ok still confused It’s okay to ban men from women’s spaces. If anything it’s necessary to ban them from woman’s spaces. That’s kinda implied by the name. If both men and women are welcome then I would call that a unisex space rather than a woman’s space. but why is it ok? Because of the meaning of words. If I were to say that it’s okay to have 12 eggs in a dozen box of eggs but that it’s not okay to have 5 would you see why that is evidently the case? If so I really don’t see why you’re struggling with how a woman’s space, as opposed to a unisex space, must be exclusionary by definition. It’s okay for a box of a dozen eggs to contain 12. It’s not okay if it contains 5. That would be wrong. You would open that box and say “this is not okay”. Why should an exclusionary space where cis men are not permitted to enter be allowed to exist in the first place? Because things may legally exist unless they’re specifically banned and this one exists. Do you have any arguments for banning it? Because if not I’m really not seeing where you’re going here. You seem to be trying to make me defend its existence when the burden is really on you to first launch an attack. Hell, maybe if you make a sufficiently good argument I’ll agree with you that they shouldn’t exist. But you do actually need to make the argument first before demanding that I respond to it. Here's a few arguments for why cis men shouldn't be excluded from women's bathrooms. I'm assuming you agree with all of them. you don’t get to decide which shared public spaces are reserved for which sex We shouldn't restrict access to things based on penises If you can't handle the existence of other peoples' genitals then that's a problem that you should work on, not a demand that society must cater to Is that really the gotcha you’ve been building up to over the past dozen posts? A simple misunderstanding of my argument? Really? Did I not tell you already to go back and read it again? The women’s bathroom is a shared space for women. All women. Cis women don’t get to decide that they’re not feeling comfortable sharing it with trans women. Just like how white women don’t get to decide they’re not comfortable sharing it with black women. It’s the women’s bathroom, it’s for women. I stated all this earlier, work on your reading comprehension. Are you attempting to make an argument that women’s bathrooms shouldn’t exist at all and that all bathrooms should be unisex? We covered that one already too. I’m open to the idea but we already have lots of bathrooms and I’m not interested in remodeling them. Or are you attempting to make an argument that women’s bathrooms should exist, but that they should be for everyone? If so we covered that one when I explained that words have meanings and that if everyone is welcome in the women’s bathroom then that’s not a women’s bathroom anymore. It's a little perplexing why you think you have to remodel a bathroom to make it unisex. Bathrooms consist of toilets, urinals, sinks. All of these things can exist in a unisex bathroom, you don't have to change it at all. Also I take it you would be okay if someone wanted to make a "biological female" bathroom and exclude everyone that's not biologically female?
Biological women only toilet sounds like an absolute nightmare to enforce. In some notable cases in athletics people have not been able to exactly confirm who (what) is a biological woman even with years of back and forth. So I think for most people wanting to go relieve themselves that ends up being a complete non-starter.
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United States43902 Posts
On July 05 2023 16:57 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2023 16:28 KwarK wrote:On July 05 2023 16:20 BlackJack wrote:On July 05 2023 16:07 KwarK wrote:On July 05 2023 16:01 BlackJack wrote:On July 05 2023 15:55 KwarK wrote:On July 05 2023 15:51 BlackJack wrote:On July 05 2023 15:49 KwarK wrote:On July 05 2023 15:21 BlackJack wrote:On July 05 2023 14:50 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
No. Read my posts again and let me know if you’re still confused by my stance once you’re done. Ok still confused It’s okay to ban men from women’s spaces. If anything it’s necessary to ban them from woman’s spaces. That’s kinda implied by the name. If both men and women are welcome then I would call that a unisex space rather than a woman’s space. but why is it ok? Because of the meaning of words. If I were to say that it’s okay to have 12 eggs in a dozen box of eggs but that it’s not okay to have 5 would you see why that is evidently the case? If so I really don’t see why you’re struggling with how a woman’s space, as opposed to a unisex space, must be exclusionary by definition. It’s okay for a box of a dozen eggs to contain 12. It’s not okay if it contains 5. That would be wrong. You would open that box and say “this is not okay”. Why should an exclusionary space where cis men are not permitted to enter be allowed to exist in the first place? Because things may legally exist unless they’re specifically banned and this one exists. Do you have any arguments for banning it? Because if not I’m really not seeing where you’re going here. You seem to be trying to make me defend its existence when the burden is really on you to first launch an attack. Hell, maybe if you make a sufficiently good argument I’ll agree with you that they shouldn’t exist. But you do actually need to make the argument first before demanding that I respond to it. Here's a few arguments for why cis men shouldn't be excluded from women's bathrooms. I'm assuming you agree with all of them. you don’t get to decide which shared public spaces are reserved for which sex We shouldn't restrict access to things based on penises If you can't handle the existence of other peoples' genitals then that's a problem that you should work on, not a demand that society must cater to Is that really the gotcha you’ve been building up to over the past dozen posts? A simple misunderstanding of my argument? Really? Did I not tell you already to go back and read it again? The women’s bathroom is a shared space for women. All women. Cis women don’t get to decide that they’re not feeling comfortable sharing it with trans women. Just like how white women don’t get to decide they’re not comfortable sharing it with black women. It’s the women’s bathroom, it’s for women. I stated all this earlier, work on your reading comprehension. Are you attempting to make an argument that women’s bathrooms shouldn’t exist at all and that all bathrooms should be unisex? We covered that one already too. I’m open to the idea but we already have lots of bathrooms and I’m not interested in remodeling them. Or are you attempting to make an argument that women’s bathrooms should exist, but that they should be for everyone? If so we covered that one when I explained that words have meanings and that if everyone is welcome in the women’s bathroom then that’s not a women’s bathroom anymore. It's a little perplexing why you think you have to remodel a bathroom to make it unisex. Bathrooms consist of toilets, urinals, sinks. All of these things can exist in a unisex bathroom, you don't have to change it at all. Also I take it you would be okay if someone wanted to make a "biological female" bathroom and exclude everyone that's not biologically female?
It’s a little perplexing to me that you think it’s my job to do this at all. There are already a bunch of gendered bathrooms and whether or not the status quo makes sense I’m not in charge of changing them. Even if all you want me to do is take off the signs on the doors we’re still talking millions of signs across the country. I’m not interested in doing it. I can argue that unisex bathrooms would be basically fine in the event that Thanos snapped all the men’s bathrooms out of existence while also saying that I don’t care enough to change the signs. It’s not my job.
On private property they could do that if they wanted. My gym has like 5 different changing rooms. Men, women, boys, girls, family. What’s two more? I’m assuming you’re suggesting cis women and trans women are both getting their own, right? Hell, let’s go a little further, we could give everyone their own bathroom. They could be walled in with cubicle walls and share common sinks etc.
Imagine a spectrum. On the one end everyone uses the same showers. Then you have trans segregation. Family status segregation. Gender segregation. Age segregation. And so forth and so forth until on the other end everyone has their own shower cubicle. I literally don’t care where on that spectrum things are as long as you don’t make me change it.
If I go to someone’s house and the bathroom is unisex then that’s fine. If they ask me to use a specific bathroom, also fine. I don’t care. If a gym told me we all have to change together then I might not join that gym but I don’t think it’s a legal issue with a gym. When I was in AOTC I hated showering with everyone for the first week and then I got over it because wtf else could I do. It’s not my favourite thing to do but they weren’t going to give me my own shower block and I wasn’t going to quit over something so petty. Had they made us shower with the girls I’d have gotten over that too.
Everyone in one big room or everyone in cubicles or anywhere in between. None of it makes especially more sense than anywhere else and it’s all socially learned discomfort. As long as people are treated with respect and people who are actually harming others, as opposed to simply existing, are dealt with I just don’t care that much.
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United States43902 Posts
On July 05 2023 17:03 Liquid`Drone wrote:
is there really much point in segregating anything based on gender? Do we need it listed on our ID? Is that an essential part of drop down menus when we register for stuff, or could it just be skipped entirely?
I’m afraid that you’re not allowed to question whether any of these distinctions are important or meaningful unless you’re also willing to change the world to remove all preexisting gender divisions. I don’t make the rules but per Blackjack these are the rules.
It’s not okay to just say “this is where we’re at and even if it doesn’t really have a point it is what it is”. Recode all the websites that demand gender during user account creation.
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On July 05 2023 17:03 Fleetfeet wrote:
It isn't perplexing at all. You can't simultaneously be concerned for straw women's safety and perplexed about why any remodelling would be required to convert a bathroom to unisex as originally described. You're just really trying to force this idea of open non-private private spaces so you can point at them and go "SEE? IT DOESN'T WORK."
Do the men's rooms not have stalls where you're from? What do men do if they need to take a shit? Go in the urinal and mash it down? In fact we already know you don't have to remodel anything because we are already doing it in practice. MTF have been using women's restrooms and FTM have been using men's restrooms, and neither required remodeling before using the toilet.
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You're being inane on purpose right?
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On July 05 2023 17:07 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2023 16:57 BlackJack wrote:On July 05 2023 16:28 KwarK wrote:On July 05 2023 16:20 BlackJack wrote:On July 05 2023 16:07 KwarK wrote:On July 05 2023 16:01 BlackJack wrote:On July 05 2023 15:55 KwarK wrote:On July 05 2023 15:51 BlackJack wrote:On July 05 2023 15:49 KwarK wrote:On July 05 2023 15:21 BlackJack wrote:
[quote]
Ok still confused It’s okay to ban men from women’s spaces. If anything it’s necessary to ban them from woman’s spaces. That’s kinda implied by the name. If both men and women are welcome then I would call that a unisex space rather than a woman’s space. but why is it ok? Because of the meaning of words. If I were to say that it’s okay to have 12 eggs in a dozen box of eggs but that it’s not okay to have 5 would you see why that is evidently the case? If so I really don’t see why you’re struggling with how a woman’s space, as opposed to a unisex space, must be exclusionary by definition. It’s okay for a box of a dozen eggs to contain 12. It’s not okay if it contains 5. That would be wrong. You would open that box and say “this is not okay”. Why should an exclusionary space where cis men are not permitted to enter be allowed to exist in the first place? Because things may legally exist unless they’re specifically banned and this one exists. Do you have any arguments for banning it? Because if not I’m really not seeing where you’re going here. You seem to be trying to make me defend its existence when the burden is really on you to first launch an attack. Hell, maybe if you make a sufficiently good argument I’ll agree with you that they shouldn’t exist. But you do actually need to make the argument first before demanding that I respond to it. Here's a few arguments for why cis men shouldn't be excluded from women's bathrooms. I'm assuming you agree with all of them. you don’t get to decide which shared public spaces are reserved for which sex We shouldn't restrict access to things based on penises If you can't handle the existence of other peoples' genitals then that's a problem that you should work on, not a demand that society must cater to Is that really the gotcha you’ve been building up to over the past dozen posts? A simple misunderstanding of my argument? Really? Did I not tell you already to go back and read it again? The women’s bathroom is a shared space for women. All women. Cis women don’t get to decide that they’re not feeling comfortable sharing it with trans women. Just like how white women don’t get to decide they’re not comfortable sharing it with black women. It’s the women’s bathroom, it’s for women. I stated all this earlier, work on your reading comprehension. Are you attempting to make an argument that women’s bathrooms shouldn’t exist at all and that all bathrooms should be unisex? We covered that one already too. I’m open to the idea but we already have lots of bathrooms and I’m not interested in remodeling them. Or are you attempting to make an argument that women’s bathrooms should exist, but that they should be for everyone? If so we covered that one when I explained that words have meanings and that if everyone is welcome in the women’s bathroom then that’s not a women’s bathroom anymore. It's a little perplexing why you think you have to remodel a bathroom to make it unisex. Bathrooms consist of toilets, urinals, sinks. All of these things can exist in a unisex bathroom, you don't have to change it at all. Also I take it you would be okay if someone wanted to make a "biological female" bathroom and exclude everyone that's not biologically female? It’s a little perplexing to me that you think it’s my job to do this at all. There are already a bunch of gendered bathrooms and whether or not the status quo makes sense I’m not in charge of changing them. Even if all you want me to do is take off the signs on the doors we’re still talking millions of signs across the country. I’m not interested in doing it. I can argue that unisex bathrooms would be basically fine in the event that Thanos snapped all the men’s bathrooms out of existence while also saying that I don’t care enough to change the signs. It’s not my job. On private property they could do that if they wanted. My gym has like 5 different changing rooms. Men, women, boys, girls, family. What’s two more? I’m assuming you’re suggesting cis women and trans women are both getting their own, right? Hell, let’s go a little further, we could give everyone their own bathroom. They could be walled in with cubicle walls and share common sinks etc. Imagine a spectrum. On the one end everyone uses the same showers. Then you have trans segregation. Family status segregation. Gender segregation. Age segregation. And so forth and so forth until on the other end everyone has their own shower cubicle. I literally don’t care where on that spectrum things are as long as you don’t make me change it. If I go to someone’s house and the bathroom is unisex then that’s fine. If they ask me to use a specific bathroom, also fine. I don’t care. If a gym told me we all have to change together then I might not join that gym but I don’t think it’s a legal issue with a gym. When I was in AOTC I hated showering with everyone for the first week and then I got over it because wtf else could I do. It’s not my favourite thing to do but they weren’t going to give me my own shower block and I wasn’t going to quit over something so petty. Had they made us shower with the girls I’d have gotten over that too. Everyone in one big room or everyone in cubicles or anywhere in between. None of it makes especially more sense than anywhere else and it’s all socially learned discomfort. As long as people are treated with respect and people who are actually harming others, as opposed to simply existing, are dealt with I just don’t care that much.
I'm fine with a status quo argument
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United States43902 Posts
On July 05 2023 17:36 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2023 17:07 KwarK wrote:On July 05 2023 16:57 BlackJack wrote:On July 05 2023 16:28 KwarK wrote:On July 05 2023 16:20 BlackJack wrote:On July 05 2023 16:07 KwarK wrote:On July 05 2023 16:01 BlackJack wrote:On July 05 2023 15:55 KwarK wrote:On July 05 2023 15:51 BlackJack wrote:On July 05 2023 15:49 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
It’s okay to ban men from women’s spaces. If anything it’s necessary to ban them from woman’s spaces. That’s kinda implied by the name. If both men and women are welcome then I would call that a unisex space rather than a woman’s space. but why is it ok? Because of the meaning of words. If I were to say that it’s okay to have 12 eggs in a dozen box of eggs but that it’s not okay to have 5 would you see why that is evidently the case? If so I really don’t see why you’re struggling with how a woman’s space, as opposed to a unisex space, must be exclusionary by definition. It’s okay for a box of a dozen eggs to contain 12. It’s not okay if it contains 5. That would be wrong. You would open that box and say “this is not okay”. Why should an exclusionary space where cis men are not permitted to enter be allowed to exist in the first place? Because things may legally exist unless they’re specifically banned and this one exists. Do you have any arguments for banning it? Because if not I’m really not seeing where you’re going here. You seem to be trying to make me defend its existence when the burden is really on you to first launch an attack. Hell, maybe if you make a sufficiently good argument I’ll agree with you that they shouldn’t exist. But you do actually need to make the argument first before demanding that I respond to it. Here's a few arguments for why cis men shouldn't be excluded from women's bathrooms. I'm assuming you agree with all of them. you don’t get to decide which shared public spaces are reserved for which sex We shouldn't restrict access to things based on penises If you can't handle the existence of other peoples' genitals then that's a problem that you should work on, not a demand that society must cater to Is that really the gotcha you’ve been building up to over the past dozen posts? A simple misunderstanding of my argument? Really? Did I not tell you already to go back and read it again? The women’s bathroom is a shared space for women. All women. Cis women don’t get to decide that they’re not feeling comfortable sharing it with trans women. Just like how white women don’t get to decide they’re not comfortable sharing it with black women. It’s the women’s bathroom, it’s for women. I stated all this earlier, work on your reading comprehension. Are you attempting to make an argument that women’s bathrooms shouldn’t exist at all and that all bathrooms should be unisex? We covered that one already too. I’m open to the idea but we already have lots of bathrooms and I’m not interested in remodeling them. Or are you attempting to make an argument that women’s bathrooms should exist, but that they should be for everyone? If so we covered that one when I explained that words have meanings and that if everyone is welcome in the women’s bathroom then that’s not a women’s bathroom anymore. It's a little perplexing why you think you have to remodel a bathroom to make it unisex. Bathrooms consist of toilets, urinals, sinks. All of these things can exist in a unisex bathroom, you don't have to change it at all. Also I take it you would be okay if someone wanted to make a "biological female" bathroom and exclude everyone that's not biologically female? It’s a little perplexing to me that you think it’s my job to do this at all. There are already a bunch of gendered bathrooms and whether or not the status quo makes sense I’m not in charge of changing them. Even if all you want me to do is take off the signs on the doors we’re still talking millions of signs across the country. I’m not interested in doing it. I can argue that unisex bathrooms would be basically fine in the event that Thanos snapped all the men’s bathrooms out of existence while also saying that I don’t care enough to change the signs. It’s not my job. On private property they could do that if they wanted. My gym has like 5 different changing rooms. Men, women, boys, girls, family. What’s two more? I’m assuming you’re suggesting cis women and trans women are both getting their own, right? Hell, let’s go a little further, we could give everyone their own bathroom. They could be walled in with cubicle walls and share common sinks etc. Imagine a spectrum. On the one end everyone uses the same showers. Then you have trans segregation. Family status segregation. Gender segregation. Age segregation. And so forth and so forth until on the other end everyone has their own shower cubicle. I literally don’t care where on that spectrum things are as long as you don’t make me change it. If I go to someone’s house and the bathroom is unisex then that’s fine. If they ask me to use a specific bathroom, also fine. I don’t care. If a gym told me we all have to change together then I might not join that gym but I don’t think it’s a legal issue with a gym. When I was in AOTC I hated showering with everyone for the first week and then I got over it because wtf else could I do. It’s not my favourite thing to do but they weren’t going to give me my own shower block and I wasn’t going to quit over something so petty. Had they made us shower with the girls I’d have gotten over that too. Everyone in one big room or everyone in cubicles or anywhere in between. None of it makes especially more sense than anywhere else and it’s all socially learned discomfort. As long as people are treated with respect and people who are actually harming others, as opposed to simply existing, are dealt with I just don’t care that much. I'm fine with a status quo argument
Then why have you spent the day doing your best Ben Shapiro impression going curious, you say shared bathrooms would probably be fine and yet you have not converted the bathrooms in a single establishment like it’s some kind of gotcha when I already said that I don’t care enough to change the status quo.
We already did all this twelve hours ago.
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On July 05 2023 17:40 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2023 17:36 BlackJack wrote:On July 05 2023 17:07 KwarK wrote:On July 05 2023 16:57 BlackJack wrote:On July 05 2023 16:28 KwarK wrote:On July 05 2023 16:20 BlackJack wrote:On July 05 2023 16:07 KwarK wrote:On July 05 2023 16:01 BlackJack wrote:On July 05 2023 15:55 KwarK wrote:On July 05 2023 15:51 BlackJack wrote:
[quote]
but why is it ok? Because of the meaning of words. If I were to say that it’s okay to have 12 eggs in a dozen box of eggs but that it’s not okay to have 5 would you see why that is evidently the case? If so I really don’t see why you’re struggling with how a woman’s space, as opposed to a unisex space, must be exclusionary by definition. It’s okay for a box of a dozen eggs to contain 12. It’s not okay if it contains 5. That would be wrong. You would open that box and say “this is not okay”. Why should an exclusionary space where cis men are not permitted to enter be allowed to exist in the first place? Because things may legally exist unless they’re specifically banned and this one exists. Do you have any arguments for banning it? Because if not I’m really not seeing where you’re going here. You seem to be trying to make me defend its existence when the burden is really on you to first launch an attack. Hell, maybe if you make a sufficiently good argument I’ll agree with you that they shouldn’t exist. But you do actually need to make the argument first before demanding that I respond to it. Here's a few arguments for why cis men shouldn't be excluded from women's bathrooms. I'm assuming you agree with all of them. you don’t get to decide which shared public spaces are reserved for which sex We shouldn't restrict access to things based on penises If you can't handle the existence of other peoples' genitals then that's a problem that you should work on, not a demand that society must cater to Is that really the gotcha you’ve been building up to over the past dozen posts? A simple misunderstanding of my argument? Really? Did I not tell you already to go back and read it again? The women’s bathroom is a shared space for women. All women. Cis women don’t get to decide that they’re not feeling comfortable sharing it with trans women. Just like how white women don’t get to decide they’re not comfortable sharing it with black women. It’s the women’s bathroom, it’s for women. I stated all this earlier, work on your reading comprehension. Are you attempting to make an argument that women’s bathrooms shouldn’t exist at all and that all bathrooms should be unisex? We covered that one already too. I’m open to the idea but we already have lots of bathrooms and I’m not interested in remodeling them. Or are you attempting to make an argument that women’s bathrooms should exist, but that they should be for everyone? If so we covered that one when I explained that words have meanings and that if everyone is welcome in the women’s bathroom then that’s not a women’s bathroom anymore. It's a little perplexing why you think you have to remodel a bathroom to make it unisex. Bathrooms consist of toilets, urinals, sinks. All of these things can exist in a unisex bathroom, you don't have to change it at all. Also I take it you would be okay if someone wanted to make a "biological female" bathroom and exclude everyone that's not biologically female? It’s a little perplexing to me that you think it’s my job to do this at all. There are already a bunch of gendered bathrooms and whether or not the status quo makes sense I’m not in charge of changing them. Even if all you want me to do is take off the signs on the doors we’re still talking millions of signs across the country. I’m not interested in doing it. I can argue that unisex bathrooms would be basically fine in the event that Thanos snapped all the men’s bathrooms out of existence while also saying that I don’t care enough to change the signs. It’s not my job. On private property they could do that if they wanted. My gym has like 5 different changing rooms. Men, women, boys, girls, family. What’s two more? I’m assuming you’re suggesting cis women and trans women are both getting their own, right? Hell, let’s go a little further, we could give everyone their own bathroom. They could be walled in with cubicle walls and share common sinks etc. Imagine a spectrum. On the one end everyone uses the same showers. Then you have trans segregation. Family status segregation. Gender segregation. Age segregation. And so forth and so forth until on the other end everyone has their own shower cubicle. I literally don’t care where on that spectrum things are as long as you don’t make me change it. If I go to someone’s house and the bathroom is unisex then that’s fine. If they ask me to use a specific bathroom, also fine. I don’t care. If a gym told me we all have to change together then I might not join that gym but I don’t think it’s a legal issue with a gym. When I was in AOTC I hated showering with everyone for the first week and then I got over it because wtf else could I do. It’s not my favourite thing to do but they weren’t going to give me my own shower block and I wasn’t going to quit over something so petty. Had they made us shower with the girls I’d have gotten over that too. Everyone in one big room or everyone in cubicles or anywhere in between. None of it makes especially more sense than anywhere else and it’s all socially learned discomfort. As long as people are treated with respect and people who are actually harming others, as opposed to simply existing, are dealt with I just don’t care that much. I'm fine with a status quo argument Then why have you spent the day doing your best Ben Shapiro impression going Show nested quote +curious, you say shared bathrooms would probably be fine and yet you have not converted the bathrooms in a single establishment like it’s some kind of gotcha when I already said that I don’t care enough to change the status quo. We already did all this twelve hours ago.
It's a little confusing when you say you shouldn't be restricted access to a place based on whether you have a penis and then just neglect to mention "unless the status quo is already that cis men with penises shouldn't go there, then that's fine." Maybe next time you can be more clear.
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I thought that surely y'all hadn't spent 100+ posts on this since I last read, but alas...
Trans people should have the same rights as the rest of us and as far as the US goes they're allowed far less than has been earned imo.
EDIT: y'all are unbelievable.
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The Bar i visit most frequently just removed the Men/Woman signs.
No one cared, in one of them there is also a pissoir, turns out women are fully capable of walking past it.
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United States43902 Posts
On July 05 2023 17:50 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2023 17:40 KwarK wrote:On July 05 2023 17:36 BlackJack wrote:On July 05 2023 17:07 KwarK wrote:On July 05 2023 16:57 BlackJack wrote:On July 05 2023 16:28 KwarK wrote:On July 05 2023 16:20 BlackJack wrote:On July 05 2023 16:07 KwarK wrote:On July 05 2023 16:01 BlackJack wrote:On July 05 2023 15:55 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Because of the meaning of words.
If I were to say that it’s okay to have 12 eggs in a dozen box of eggs but that it’s not okay to have 5 would you see why that is evidently the case? If so I really don’t see why you’re struggling with how a woman’s space, as opposed to a unisex space, must be exclusionary by definition.
It’s okay for a box of a dozen eggs to contain 12. It’s not okay if it contains 5. That would be wrong. You would open that box and say “this is not okay”. Why should an exclusionary space where cis men are not permitted to enter be allowed to exist in the first place? Because things may legally exist unless they’re specifically banned and this one exists. Do you have any arguments for banning it? Because if not I’m really not seeing where you’re going here. You seem to be trying to make me defend its existence when the burden is really on you to first launch an attack. Hell, maybe if you make a sufficiently good argument I’ll agree with you that they shouldn’t exist. But you do actually need to make the argument first before demanding that I respond to it. Here's a few arguments for why cis men shouldn't be excluded from women's bathrooms. I'm assuming you agree with all of them. you don’t get to decide which shared public spaces are reserved for which sex We shouldn't restrict access to things based on penises If you can't handle the existence of other peoples' genitals then that's a problem that you should work on, not a demand that society must cater to Is that really the gotcha you’ve been building up to over the past dozen posts? A simple misunderstanding of my argument? Really? Did I not tell you already to go back and read it again? The women’s bathroom is a shared space for women. All women. Cis women don’t get to decide that they’re not feeling comfortable sharing it with trans women. Just like how white women don’t get to decide they’re not comfortable sharing it with black women. It’s the women’s bathroom, it’s for women. I stated all this earlier, work on your reading comprehension. Are you attempting to make an argument that women’s bathrooms shouldn’t exist at all and that all bathrooms should be unisex? We covered that one already too. I’m open to the idea but we already have lots of bathrooms and I’m not interested in remodeling them. Or are you attempting to make an argument that women’s bathrooms should exist, but that they should be for everyone? If so we covered that one when I explained that words have meanings and that if everyone is welcome in the women’s bathroom then that’s not a women’s bathroom anymore. It's a little perplexing why you think you have to remodel a bathroom to make it unisex. Bathrooms consist of toilets, urinals, sinks. All of these things can exist in a unisex bathroom, you don't have to change it at all. Also I take it you would be okay if someone wanted to make a "biological female" bathroom and exclude everyone that's not biologically female? It’s a little perplexing to me that you think it’s my job to do this at all. There are already a bunch of gendered bathrooms and whether or not the status quo makes sense I’m not in charge of changing them. Even if all you want me to do is take off the signs on the doors we’re still talking millions of signs across the country. I’m not interested in doing it. I can argue that unisex bathrooms would be basically fine in the event that Thanos snapped all the men’s bathrooms out of existence while also saying that I don’t care enough to change the signs. It’s not my job. On private property they could do that if they wanted. My gym has like 5 different changing rooms. Men, women, boys, girls, family. What’s two more? I’m assuming you’re suggesting cis women and trans women are both getting their own, right? Hell, let’s go a little further, we could give everyone their own bathroom. They could be walled in with cubicle walls and share common sinks etc. Imagine a spectrum. On the one end everyone uses the same showers. Then you have trans segregation. Family status segregation. Gender segregation. Age segregation. And so forth and so forth until on the other end everyone has their own shower cubicle. I literally don’t care where on that spectrum things are as long as you don’t make me change it. If I go to someone’s house and the bathroom is unisex then that’s fine. If they ask me to use a specific bathroom, also fine. I don’t care. If a gym told me we all have to change together then I might not join that gym but I don’t think it’s a legal issue with a gym. When I was in AOTC I hated showering with everyone for the first week and then I got over it because wtf else could I do. It’s not my favourite thing to do but they weren’t going to give me my own shower block and I wasn’t going to quit over something so petty. Had they made us shower with the girls I’d have gotten over that too. Everyone in one big room or everyone in cubicles or anywhere in between. None of it makes especially more sense than anywhere else and it’s all socially learned discomfort. As long as people are treated with respect and people who are actually harming others, as opposed to simply existing, are dealt with I just don’t care that much. I'm fine with a status quo argument Then why have you spent the day doing your best Ben Shapiro impression going curious, you say shared bathrooms would probably be fine and yet you have not converted the bathrooms in a single establishment like it’s some kind of gotcha when I already said that I don’t care enough to change the status quo. We already did all this twelve hours ago. It's a little confusing when you say you shouldn't be restricted access to a place based on whether you have a penis and then just neglect to mention "unless the status quo is already that cis men with penises shouldn't go there, then that's fine." Maybe next time you can be more clear.
The status quo isn’t a penis based restriction. The proposed right wing bathroom laws would be penis based. The status quo isn’t. There’s no contradiction there. I can simultaneously argue against penis segregation and say that I won’t remodel bathrooms because bathrooms don’t have a penis shaped lock on them at present.
Furthermore I’ve been wholly consistent in my ideological opposition to arbitrary segregation while recognizing the realities of the cultural framework we’re operating in. I’ve repeatedly stated that while I don’t think the restriction is meaningful I also don’t see the upside in attempting some Mao style cultural revolution where I force the unwilling populace into the communal showers.
You are still mischaracterizing my argument, either due to some sort of comprehension impairment or deliberately. The status quo is not an exception to my beliefs, I don’t believe arbitrary segregation is any less arbitrary if it’s the status quo. I just don’t plan to do anything to change it. That’s not an endorsement of the status quo as an exception to my philosophy.
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How can one reliably check penises?
Do you scan your P or V and then you're allowed into the bathroom?
Or, more seriously, does it mean - you're always allowed by default but IF someone finds out you have a P and are in women's bathroom, they have a right to make you leave?
What is their exact proposition?
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You make a "selfie" and show it to the Barkeeper/Service Personal.
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I've made the effort of reading the whole discussion. Thanks, I hated it.
With that being said, I haven't seen anyone make the following argument (or I may've missed it because it disappeared in a swamp of attempted gotchas).
That argument is that transgender people DO NOT WANT to embarrass any men or women in the public restroom. They're just as embarrassed about the situation as anyone else would be. They're just as embarrassed as the women that some people claim they want to protect from "bearded men with huge erections" (which is a scenario that CANNOT be stopped through legislating which restroom people can pick. It's recognized as "sexual assault" - if a situation actually escalates - and that's how we handle it.)
Transgender people make a great effort to try not to embarrass others or themselves, because, guess what, they don't want to face social repercussions, just as much as cis women and men want to feel safe around strangers.
Changing the restroom laws or setups won't protect women. There are evil individuals who are hell-bent on invading women's spaces and doing terrible things to them. These individuals will not go away because the restrooms are split, or not split, or because a sign says this or that. That's not how this works.
The argument against people simply choosing the restrooms they prefer is based on a fabrication of a false reality that hasn't existed and likely will never exist. It's entirely baseless.
And I know already what the right-wing response to that will be: "but look at this red herring over here! That one single specimen is clearly indicative of a larger trend!" No, it's not. And it likely won't ever be. Fringe cases are fringe cases and should be treated accordingly if or when they occur.
The real danger that I see is that the public restroom debate spirals out of control over and over again (as it did here) and it results in more legislation that is anti-trans while not doing anything in the slightest to protect people from harm, neither women nor men.
Just look at how some people are still comfortable denying that transgender people exist? In THIS thread? THOSE are the people who cause problems in society. Not transgender people by and large. What the hell.
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On July 05 2023 18:22 Velr wrote:
You make a "selfie" and show it to the Barkeeper/Service Personal. Sounds reasonable and convenient, also it will create more jobs... and what kind of jobs!
Solution is found, we can stop the discussion now.
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On July 05 2023 18:24 ZeroByte13 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2023 18:22 Velr wrote:
You make a "selfie" and show it to the Barkeeper/Service Personal. Sounds reasonable and convenient, also it will create more jobs... and what kind of jobs! Solution is found, we can stop the discussion now.
Heck, we don't need a barkeeper, just have a camera pointing at the crotch area that unlocks the door via image recognition.
If your dick is too small, Sorry!
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EPT
