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Northern Ireland27265 Posts
And people demonstrably don’t seem to really care. Well, some. Trump is almost blatantly defrauding his supporters, I can literally hear him joking about it with his boys, ‘They don’t care, I can do anything and they’ll give me money it’s great, just amazing!’
As long as he’s there to ‘own the libs’ who cares about standards and propriety?
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United States44241 Posts
Debt ceiling bill guts a USDA program that refunds some costs related to surplus food given to food banks. My manufacturing plants will continue to donate because when a customer cancels an order on short code dated product we might as well give it to a food bank rather than just let it go bad but it’s frustrating. The deficit is in trillions and they’re saving millions by cutting a program that reduces food waste and feeds hungry people.
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On June 03 2023 01:23 KwarK wrote:
Debt ceiling bill guts a USDA program that refunds some costs related to surplus food given to food banks. My manufacturing plants will continue to donate because when a customer cancels an order on short code dated product we might as well give it to a food bank rather than just let it go bad but it’s frustrating. The deficit is in trillions and they’re saving millions by cutting a program that reduces food waste and feeds hungry people.
Sounds like core republican policy. Hurt the poor as much as possible, maybe then they will choose to no longer be poor.
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This bill is the second firm blemish in Biden's presidency. The first one was killing the rail strike. This is critically bad. I do not view Biden as an ethical person.
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On June 03 2023 01:43 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2023 01:23 KwarK wrote:
Debt ceiling bill guts a USDA program that refunds some costs related to surplus food given to food banks. My manufacturing plants will continue to donate because when a customer cancels an order on short code dated product we might as well give it to a food bank rather than just let it go bad but it’s frustrating. The deficit is in trillions and they’re saving millions by cutting a program that reduces food waste and feeds hungry people. Sounds like core republican policy. Hurt the poor as much as possible, maybe then they will choose to no longer be poor.
Yet the majority of votes to do it were Democrats.
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On June 03 2023 01:49 Mohdoo wrote:
This bill is the second firm blemish in Biden's presidency. The first one was killing the rail strike. This is critically bad. I do not view Biden as an ethical person. I don't disagree entirely but the other option was rolling the dice on destroying the economy entirely by having the US default on its loans...
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United States44241 Posts
On June 03 2023 01:51 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2023 01:43 Simberto wrote:On June 03 2023 01:23 KwarK wrote:
Debt ceiling bill guts a USDA program that refunds some costs related to surplus food given to food banks. My manufacturing plants will continue to donate because when a customer cancels an order on short code dated product we might as well give it to a food bank rather than just let it go bad but it’s frustrating. The deficit is in trillions and they’re saving millions by cutting a program that reduces food waste and feeds hungry people. Sounds like core republican policy. Hurt the poor as much as possible, maybe then they will choose to no longer be poor. Yet the majority of votes to do it were Democrats.
Because the Republicans were threatening to nuke the economy in the hope that Biden would get blamed for it. Sometimes you give the terrorists what they want because sometimes the hostage is important.
The problem with Biden is that he’s operating too far within the historical political norms. He should FDR shit.
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It makes sense to me. Unless they're some shade of brown, this country has proven that it does, in fact, negotiate with terrorists. Republicans used the debt limit as an opportunity to extort the government for shit they wanted, and would've been squarely at fault if the Democrats insisted on clean increases like they gave to Trump.
Instead they caved, and further serve to perpetuate the gaslighting that there's just no money to go around in the US of A, and the only way we can save anything is by coming for poor people. As long as we fall for the political theatre that says they have no choice but to fuck people over, moves like Biden just made will appear like pragmatism instead of the self-interest it is.
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This is bad in and of itself, but it's also an indicator of what will probably happen with Biden's attempt at student loan forgiveness. If the supreme court strikes down the move, I don't see how that's anything but a death blow. This fiasco is showing that if Republicans put up any resistance, he'll back down because he doesn't want to rock the boat. One of Biden's biggest campaign promises will be completely shot, and the younger generation that fought to elect him will be measurably worse off. What's his re-election strategy then?
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On June 03 2023 02:12 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2023 01:49 Mohdoo wrote:
This bill is the second firm blemish in Biden's presidency. The first one was killing the rail strike. This is critically bad. I do not view Biden as an ethical person. I don't disagree entirely but the other option was rolling the dice on destroying the economy entirely by having the US default on its loans...
and the strike was busted because they didn't want to ruin domestic shipping right in time for Christmas. Always a crisis to take advantage of.
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On June 03 2023 02:13 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2023 01:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 03 2023 01:43 Simberto wrote:On June 03 2023 01:23 KwarK wrote:
Debt ceiling bill guts a USDA program that refunds some costs related to surplus food given to food banks. My manufacturing plants will continue to donate because when a customer cancels an order on short code dated product we might as well give it to a food bank rather than just let it go bad but it’s frustrating. The deficit is in trillions and they’re saving millions by cutting a program that reduces food waste and feeds hungry people. Sounds like core republican policy. Hurt the poor as much as possible, maybe then they will choose to no longer be poor. Yet the majority of votes to do it were Democrats. Because the Republicans were threatening to nuke the economy in the hope that Biden would get blamed for it. Sometimes you give the terrorists what they want because sometimes the hostage is important. The problem with Biden is that he’s operating too far within the historical political norms. He should FDR shit.
At best they shot some hostages as cover to "save" others. Part of this pattern of rationalizations for Democrats is the neglect/rationalizations for the choices that get them in these situations. Whether it's reconciliation or the 14th amendment, Democrats had to make a fair amount of poor moves to produce this situation in the first place. It's incredibly convenient to be able to want austerity, have a majority of your members support it, have your president sign it, and then blame the opposition for it. So convenient and recognizable as a pattern it becomes very hard to reasonably conclude it is unintentional (with the incompetence explanation only serving to further disqualify them for office).
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On June 03 2023 02:35 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2023 02:12 Gorsameth wrote:On June 03 2023 01:49 Mohdoo wrote:
This bill is the second firm blemish in Biden's presidency. The first one was killing the rail strike. This is critically bad. I do not view Biden as an ethical person. I don't disagree entirely but the other option was rolling the dice on destroying the economy entirely by having the US default on its loans... and the strike was busted because they didn't want to ruin domestic shipping right in time for Christmas. Always a crisis to take advantage of. I think the 2 situations are not entirely the same. The US would survive a strike around christmas immeasurable better then destroying the world economy overnight. I feel that stopping that was certainly a big mistake that wasn't needed.
And to be fair, in a sort of "fuck it" way, part of me certainly wishes that Biden called the Republicans bluff and just let it happen, declare the debt ceiling illegal as per the 14th amendment and continue issuing debt as if nothing was wrong.
Let the Supreme Court sort it out and bury this issue for good.
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United States44241 Posts
On June 03 2023 02:41 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2023 02:13 KwarK wrote:On June 03 2023 01:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 03 2023 01:43 Simberto wrote:On June 03 2023 01:23 KwarK wrote:
Debt ceiling bill guts a USDA program that refunds some costs related to surplus food given to food banks. My manufacturing plants will continue to donate because when a customer cancels an order on short code dated product we might as well give it to a food bank rather than just let it go bad but it’s frustrating. The deficit is in trillions and they’re saving millions by cutting a program that reduces food waste and feeds hungry people. Sounds like core republican policy. Hurt the poor as much as possible, maybe then they will choose to no longer be poor. Yet the majority of votes to do it were Democrats. Because the Republicans were threatening to nuke the economy in the hope that Biden would get blamed for it. Sometimes you give the terrorists what they want because sometimes the hostage is important. The problem with Biden is that he’s operating too far within the historical political norms. He should FDR shit. At best they shot some hostages as cover to "save" others. Part of this pattern of rationalizations for Democrats is the neglect/rationalizations for the choices that get them in these situations. Whether it's reconciliation or the 14th amendment, Democrats had to make a fair amount of poor moves to produce this situation in the first place. It's incredibly convenient to be able to want austerity, have a majority of your members support it, have your president sign it, and then blame the opposition for it. So convenient and recognizable as a pattern it becomes very hard to reasonably conclude it is unintentional (with the incompetence explanation only serving to further disqualify them for office).
The hostage here is treasury notes getting downgraded which would be the global financial equivalent of Yellowstone going off.
The hostages all lived. You didn’t like the sacrifices and neither do I but this is a binary, either the entire financial system blew up or it didn’t. It didn’t.
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United States44241 Posts
On June 03 2023 02:46 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2023 02:35 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On June 03 2023 02:12 Gorsameth wrote:On June 03 2023 01:49 Mohdoo wrote:
This bill is the second firm blemish in Biden's presidency. The first one was killing the rail strike. This is critically bad. I do not view Biden as an ethical person. I don't disagree entirely but the other option was rolling the dice on destroying the economy entirely by having the US default on its loans... and the strike was busted because they didn't want to ruin domestic shipping right in time for Christmas. Always a crisis to take advantage of. I think the 2 situations are not entirely the same. The US would survive a strike around christmas immeasurable better then destroying the world economy overnight. I feel that stopping that was certainly a big mistake that wasn't needed. And to be fair, in a sort of "fuck it" way, part of me certainly wishes that Biden called the Republicans bluff and just let it happen, declare the debt ceiling illegal as per the 14th amendment and continue issuing debt as if nothing was wrong. Let the Supreme Court sort it out and bury this issue for good.
This but with stacking the court first. FDR wouldn’t play games with these clowns.
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On June 03 2023 03:07 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2023 02:41 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 03 2023 02:13 KwarK wrote:On June 03 2023 01:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 03 2023 01:43 Simberto wrote:On June 03 2023 01:23 KwarK wrote:
Debt ceiling bill guts a USDA program that refunds some costs related to surplus food given to food banks. My manufacturing plants will continue to donate because when a customer cancels an order on short code dated product we might as well give it to a food bank rather than just let it go bad but it’s frustrating. The deficit is in trillions and they’re saving millions by cutting a program that reduces food waste and feeds hungry people. Sounds like core republican policy. Hurt the poor as much as possible, maybe then they will choose to no longer be poor. Yet the majority of votes to do it were Democrats. Because the Republicans were threatening to nuke the economy in the hope that Biden would get blamed for it. Sometimes you give the terrorists what they want because sometimes the hostage is important. The problem with Biden is that he’s operating too far within the historical political norms. He should FDR shit. At best they shot some hostages as cover to "save" others. Part of this pattern of rationalizations for Democrats is the neglect/rationalizations for the choices that get them in these situations. Whether it's reconciliation or the 14th amendment, Democrats had to make a fair amount of poor moves to produce this situation in the first place. It's incredibly convenient to be able to want austerity, have a majority of your members support it, have your president sign it, and then blame the opposition for it. So convenient and recognizable as a pattern it becomes very hard to reasonably conclude it is unintentional (with the incompetence explanation only serving to further disqualify them for office). The hostage here is treasury notes getting downgraded which would be the global financial equivalent of Yellowstone going off. The hostages all lived. You didn’t like the sacrifices and neither do I but this is a binary, either the entire financial system blew up or it didn’t. It didn’t.
The hostage is people, treasury notes getting downgraded is part of the threat to them.
Regardless, you probably get enough Republicans to pass it (the margin isn't large) without giving them so much you get 140+ Republican votes in the House for what is functionally Democrat legislation, especially if you pick up more Democrats that were left on the table.
Between reconciliation, the 14th amendment, and the vote tally I'm saying it wasn't necessary to give up so much or even end up negotiating (despite assurances he wouldn't) in the first place.
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Debt-limit negotiation has been a thing for a long time now, in different forms. Sometimes they agree on budgetary items for the budget bills, there's basically no such thing as a clean debt deal (previous "clean" debt bills came with future budget agreements). People proposing the 14th amendment aren't being serious, the case for the president's authority to use it is, charitably speaking, a heavy lift.
And of course it should be noted that Dems had two years to get rid of the debt ceiling entirely and didn't. It's something they can leverage too.
But this is becoming par for the course for Biden. Float/do something he can't do and then attack those who stop him. Be it calling the House majority terrorists or undermining the legitimacy of the Court, it's Biden's actions, not those who stop him, who are fraying institutions.
Edit: and don't forget the eviction moratorium. It's really a cynical strategy he's using.
Edit: in other news, the Supreme court sided 8-1 with the cement company in Washington over the workers who walked off the job while the trucks were full. I being it up because I recall that being talked about here.
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On June 03 2023 03:45 Introvert wrote:
Debt-limit negotiation has been a thing for a long time now, in different forms. Sometimes they agree on budgetary items for the budget bills, there's basically no such thing as a clean debt deal (previous "clean" debt bills came with future budget agreements). People proposing the 14th amendment aren't being serious, the case for the president's authority to use it is, charitably speaking, a heavy lift.
And of course it should be noted that Dems had two years to get rid of the debt ceiling entirely and didn't. It's something they can leverage too.
But this is becoming par for the course for Biden. Float/do something he can't do and then attack those who stop him. Be it calling the House majority terrorists or undermining the legitimacy of the Court, it's Biden's actions, not those who stop him, who are fraying institutions.
Edit: and don't forget the eviction moratorium. It's really a cynical strategy he's using.
Edit: in other news, the Supreme court sided 8-1 with the cement company in Washington over the workers who walked off the job while the trucks were full. I being it up because I recall that being talked about here. Please explain which part of The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, ... shall not be questioned. is a heavy lift.
It seems rather clear to me that the constitution does not allow the US to default on its loans.
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United States44241 Posts
The cement one was a question of duty to act to mitigate damages to an employer. I don’t know that I agree that there’s an active obligation to perform action to mitigate damages that would result from passive inaction in the event of a strike. Surely the whole point of a strike is that the employer derives a benefit from your labour and that if your labour is so valuable that they incur losses without it then they should probably concede to your demands (or else find alternate labour).
Within the confines of the case it’s not so concerning but the precedent isn’t great. Employers can’t sue a union for any passive losses resulting from a strike without completely neutering striking.
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EPT
